So you say the biggest threats in drizzle are water, electric, and flying type moves. Most pokemon will not be carrying all of these moves. Likewise why are you trying to pigeon hole anti-weather counters to a single pokemon like Lanturn? We have 6 slots. Use them. And you know whats great? Counters to hydro pump will also serve as valuable switch ins to bulky waters on standard or stall teams. Steels that counter hurricane are also valuable to providing counters to draco meteors/outrages. Or you can use general sp walls which will also serve their purpose against all teams.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory
- Thread starter Philip7086
- Start date
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So Garchomp in general: I want it to rot.
Special mention goes to SubChomp, whose (BAN ME PLEASE)ry has no limits. As I've stated before, it's of no consequence if you miss against, say, Cacturne or Gliscor. But one miss is all Garchomp needs to start boosting and sweeping. Scarf variants are walled out by Gliscor, and SD variants can be outsped easily enough and still probably defeated by Gliscor. But with SubChomp, all that goes out the window. It only needs one dodge (which after 5 turns, you'll have a 70% chance of missing.)
Sure you can run your own weather to disrupt this, but that's pointless half the time. SubChomp's still more dangerous than the other variants.
Special mention goes to SubChomp, whose (BAN ME PLEASE)ry has no limits. As I've stated before, it's of no consequence if you miss against, say, Cacturne or Gliscor. But one miss is all Garchomp needs to start boosting and sweeping. Scarf variants are walled out by Gliscor, and SD variants can be outsped easily enough and still probably defeated by Gliscor. But with SubChomp, all that goes out the window. It only needs one dodge (which after 5 turns, you'll have a 70% chance of missing.)
Sure you can run your own weather to disrupt this, but that's pointless half the time. SubChomp's still more dangerous than the other variants.
I wasn't referring to one Pokemon. I was referring to the 3 main weather abusers. So yes, those three moves won't be used on every Pokemon, but this is not what I said.
....
Bread have you even read the previous posts? If you did you would see how Lanturn (and Chansey) are the only two Pokemon that effectively stop all Drizzle abusers, well that's if Toxicroak isn't present on the same team.
This whole time I've been trying to say, Weather Wars forces you to use a limited amount of specific Pokemon and that there is no reliable way to counter to 'weather' (and all of its effects) as a whole.
Fixed, thanks to poster below:
Well, that's the point right there, isn't it? All these typings are generally poor by merit of SR's popularity. Furthermore, one more reason why Drought and Hail are inferior to Drizzle and Sand is because many of their abusers are SR weak, including the inducers. How can you argue that SR's impact is "greatly limited"?
No matter what changes you make, there will always be a change to the metagame such that some Pokemon will be favored and others will be put at a disadvantage. Look at all the things that are low in usage because they cannot do anything against Ferrothorn, for instance. It doesn't mean Ferrothorn is broken, it just means that these Pokemon are at a disadvantage due to its popularity. That's a natural facet of any metagame; you cannot create a metagame where some are favored and others are not.
The metagame naturally adapts so that things that are particularly vulnerable to hazards like SR are less viable in OU. Like the Ferrothorn example, this doesn't mean that SR is broken. Some things will gain advantages, others will lose out.
All right, and SR allows Rotom-W to OHKO Thundurus with Hydro Pump, or whatever the case may be. You can argue that all the Flying, Fire, Bug, and Ice-types are victims of SR abuse.
Well, I think my point is clear - everything, whether it be weather or hazards or top-tier OU Pokemon's mere existence, a large number of Pokemon will have their viability altered positively or negatively. However, this doesn't mean that the altering factor in question deserves to be banned.
Things that are judged to affect the metagame too negatively are banned. Just like weather, SR has the effect of changing the viability of certain Pokemon. The vote has shown that the top of the ladder who gained reqs does not believe that auto-weather impacts the metagame enough to merit change.
Well, that's the point right there, isn't it? All these typings are generally poor by merit of SR's popularity. Furthermore, one more reason why Drought and Hail are inferior to Drizzle and Sand is because many of their abusers are SR weak, including the inducers. How can you argue that SR's impact is "greatly limited"?
No matter what changes you make, there will always be a change to the metagame such that some Pokemon will be favored and others will be put at a disadvantage. Look at all the things that are low in usage because they cannot do anything against Ferrothorn, for instance. It doesn't mean Ferrothorn is broken, it just means that these Pokemon are at a disadvantage due to its popularity. That's a natural facet of any metagame; you cannot create a metagame where some are favored and others are not.
The metagame naturally adapts so that things that are particularly vulnerable to hazards like SR are less viable in OU. Like the Ferrothorn example, this doesn't mean that SR is broken. Some things will gain advantages, others will lose out.
All right, and SR allows Rotom-W to OHKO Thundurus with Hydro Pump, or whatever the case may be. You can argue that all the Flying, Fire, Bug, and Ice-types are victims of SR abuse.
Well, I think my point is clear - everything, whether it be weather or hazards or top-tier OU Pokemon's mere existence, a large number of Pokemon will have their viability altered positively or negatively. However, this doesn't mean that the altering factor in question deserves to be banned.
Things that are judged to affect the metagame too negatively are banned. Just like weather, SR has the effect of changing the viability of certain Pokemon. The vote has shown that the top of the ladder who gained reqs does not believe that auto-weather impacts the metagame enough to merit change.
Just split up the quote, then. At the end of a section you want to respond to, type [ /quote] (without the space), and then when you are going back to the other person's post again, just put a [ quote] (again, no space).
This way, other people can respond to your responses (something that's very difficult when you do it how you've been doing it since the quote function does not nest quotes).
I just wanted to say that sandstorm is ruining the metagame. In every single match I enter, I see Tyranitar/Latios/Gliscor/Excadrill/Ferrothorn. And I lose many times simply because I don't have weather and they do. Things like Excadrill are extremely broken; so much so that I have even seen rain teams running him in case sandstorm prevails. And when I use sandstorm myself, most battles are based around who can kill the other person's Gliscor first. There is no skill involved. I'm honestly suprised that the thing isn't banned yet.
Excadrill really has only one relevant counter, Gliscor. All other things are just checks. Rotom loses if it has any health lost, and can lose to one flinch. All Skarmory can do is whirlwind it away. I don't like Gliscor. But I have to use it if I don't want to be swept by a fucking 550 speed, Adamant 135 base attack pokemon with STAB Earthquake. There is too much overcentralization here. Don't you dare tell me that I just can't handle it because I suck and that I should just deal with it. Its like you support overcentralization or something.
Never in Gen 4 was there a boosting sweeper who had no faster Pokemon to check it. I didn't have to run a direct counter to Salamence because I could just revenge kill it after it boosts up. If you had told me that I could have a base 120 speed Choice Scarfer that could change moves, I would never have believed you. The fact that people run Bronzong in this metagame JUST so they can beat sand (Garchomp and Excadrill) is just pathetic. The game is stagnant, boring, extremely repetitive, and no longer requires skill. I can't even count how many times I have lost thanks to a Rock Slide flinch. Excadrill needs to go.
And don't even get me started on Garchomp.
Excadrill really has only one relevant counter, Gliscor. All other things are just checks. Rotom loses if it has any health lost, and can lose to one flinch. All Skarmory can do is whirlwind it away. I don't like Gliscor. But I have to use it if I don't want to be swept by a fucking 550 speed, Adamant 135 base attack pokemon with STAB Earthquake. There is too much overcentralization here. Don't you dare tell me that I just can't handle it because I suck and that I should just deal with it. Its like you support overcentralization or something.
Never in Gen 4 was there a boosting sweeper who had no faster Pokemon to check it. I didn't have to run a direct counter to Salamence because I could just revenge kill it after it boosts up. If you had told me that I could have a base 120 speed Choice Scarfer that could change moves, I would never have believed you. The fact that people run Bronzong in this metagame JUST so they can beat sand (Garchomp and Excadrill) is just pathetic. The game is stagnant, boring, extremely repetitive, and no longer requires skill. I can't even count how many times I have lost thanks to a Rock Slide flinch. Excadrill needs to go.
And don't even get me started on Garchomp.
Garchomp is handleable with a 20% chance of missing...but not when it subs over and over and over and over...abusing hax to win a game is just wrong.
I'm actually enjoying the staleness of Sand teams...it makes it that much easier to defeat that carbon copies that are thrown at me.
I still don't have many problems with Garchomp. The occasional miss is annoying, but overall I'm not impacted too much. I do run Drizzle, but it isn't even the primary focus of my team and it certainly wasn't included for the sole purpose of defeating other weather.
I still don't have many problems with Garchomp. The occasional miss is annoying, but overall I'm not impacted too much. I do run Drizzle, but it isn't even the primary focus of my team and it certainly wasn't included for the sole purpose of defeating other weather.
This is true...
if it gets a sub up with one single miss,
I've pretty much always lost at least 1 perfectly healthy pokemon to it
no...wait more like 2+
I hate HAXChomp
Well then, it is quite unfortunate that the voting results did not match the expectations of quite a few of us, no? Still, there is no need for angry and hostile-toned arguments. Let's discuss the matter as civilized gentlemen would, shall we?
First and foremost, just to state it, I was pro-Drizzle ban, and I am also quite... disappointed by the results of the vote. Nevertheless, I can't change anything right now. I suppose I'll just go with the flow like usual. For those who are unable to accept the voter's decision, I believe that the UU is currently both quite stable and fun to be in.
Well then, now onto the topic of banning stuff. As most of you can see, I did not reach the requirements for voting. And yes, I did not reach it because of my own lack of battling skills. And perhaps some questionable choices in team-building, since I have the tendency to build teams around a certain aesthetic theme. I, however, does not view any strategy as "cheap", nor do I hold "honor" in high regards, for I am fully aware that this is a competitive community. Therefore, my arguments are logically thought out in the way that I had assumed the competitive community would. I do hope that my assumptions are correct.
And now, regarding weathers and their counters. I believe that no single weather has a single, fool-proof, solid counter. Therefore, instead of relying on counters, I have always been trying to out-manoeuvre opposing weather teams. This is by no means easy, and my lack of prediction skills have turned out to be fatal in more than one cases. On the other hand, such feats are far from impossible in the hands of an adept battler, I believe. Therefore, rather than relying on a pokemon to counter a weather, I believe that one should try to formulate a strategy against different kinds of weather. This way of thinking can also be applied to other types of teams, I suppose, so perhaps this is more of a general way of dealing with any teams, but the point still stands.
Forgive me if any of my arguments are flawed, it is to be expected since I am naught but a little battler.
First and foremost, just to state it, I was pro-Drizzle ban, and I am also quite... disappointed by the results of the vote. Nevertheless, I can't change anything right now. I suppose I'll just go with the flow like usual. For those who are unable to accept the voter's decision, I believe that the UU is currently both quite stable and fun to be in.
Well then, now onto the topic of banning stuff. As most of you can see, I did not reach the requirements for voting. And yes, I did not reach it because of my own lack of battling skills. And perhaps some questionable choices in team-building, since I have the tendency to build teams around a certain aesthetic theme. I, however, does not view any strategy as "cheap", nor do I hold "honor" in high regards, for I am fully aware that this is a competitive community. Therefore, my arguments are logically thought out in the way that I had assumed the competitive community would. I do hope that my assumptions are correct.
And now, regarding weathers and their counters. I believe that no single weather has a single, fool-proof, solid counter. Therefore, instead of relying on counters, I have always been trying to out-manoeuvre opposing weather teams. This is by no means easy, and my lack of prediction skills have turned out to be fatal in more than one cases. On the other hand, such feats are far from impossible in the hands of an adept battler, I believe. Therefore, rather than relying on a pokemon to counter a weather, I believe that one should try to formulate a strategy against different kinds of weather. This way of thinking can also be applied to other types of teams, I suppose, so perhaps this is more of a general way of dealing with any teams, but the point still stands.
Forgive me if any of my arguments are flawed, it is to be expected since I am naught but a little battler.
Chansey dosen't stop Gyarados either, who can happily abuse Drizzle, starting out at effectivly +1 on Waterfall [Or +2 after a DD]
Especially when said Gyarados is a BulkyDDos with Taunt.
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Anyway, weather vote is over. Can we stop talking about weather and get to the pokemon already? I know we're talking about Garchomp a little, but, frankly, aside from Excadrill [4th Time won't be the charm], it's the easiest to predict the outcome of.
Deo-E, Latios and Thunderus? Opinions?
Stays OU. People have seen usage stats since last round, so I doubt it will get the 50% support it needs to get banned. Usage stats aren't everything, but I think they will sway some voters.
I'd guess banned, but not by a wide margin (I suspect simple-, not super-majority). People are kinda sick of this guy, especially with all the weather backlash going around (not that he's really weather-dependent, but he does get associated with Rain too often for his own good).
Stay OU but auto-suspect for next round - I'm guessing 53-57% vote to ban. He's great, but I think enough people think he's too frail to go.
As for Excadrill, I'm thinking it will get at least 35% for banning, but not a simple majority.
In my opinion Deoxys-E hits the 50%+1. It's a good supporter and a fast sweeper.
Latios banned in any case. That's the hour.
Thundurus is a Suspect/Banned. I see too many people vote him and i can't believe that this thing isn't banned. I've fought against him, with a NP-Focus Blast can 2HKO Blissey it's ridicolous !
Excadrill is a Suspect/banned. I don't have real problem with him but i see that is a big threat and with him and Garchomp goes, the sand loose his main abusers, then remains only Drizzle and Drought to fought the weathers war and i hope that can be the time that the weathers war stop with a ban of two all.
Latios banned in any case. That's the hour.
Thundurus is a Suspect/Banned. I see too many people vote him and i can't believe that this thing isn't banned. I've fought against him, with a NP-Focus Blast can 2HKO Blissey it's ridicolous !
Excadrill is a Suspect/banned. I don't have real problem with him but i see that is a big threat and with him and Garchomp goes, the sand loose his main abusers, then remains only Drizzle and Drought to fought the weathers war and i hope that can be the time that the weathers war stop with a ban of two all.
Excadrill is the one I seriously think needs to go. Yes, I can handle it (I've always used ridiculous amounts of priority on my teams) but that doesn't make it ridiculously good. That much speed is absolutely sickening, and SD just breaks it. People called it as soon as the stats were revealed, and it has turned out to be just as good as it seemed. Regardless of whether I can beat it or not, that doesn't stop it from being over-centralising and/or broken - you either throw a priority Poke at it, lose that Pokemon and then kill it with the next, or you use CB Azu/Skarm/Gliscor - and the only consistent one there is Azu.
Chomp... Ehh, it's good, but I still don't think it's broken. 20% is not a huge problem, and it has a lot of counters, assuming they hit. The fact that you're missing 2-3 times in a row is more to do with POL's RNG issues than Garchomp being broken, I think. >_>
Chomp... Ehh, it's good, but I still don't think it's broken. 20% is not a huge problem, and it has a lot of counters, assuming they hit. The fact that you're missing 2-3 times in a row is more to do with POL's RNG issues than Garchomp being broken, I think. >_>
Eh, seeing as certain bans [Drizzle] were not made, I guess I'll adjust my predictions again:
Latios: Uber - Noithing has changed to make it any less so. In fact, +1 Blaziken won't outspeed and Shadow Claw/Stone Edge it anymore... so if anything, Latios has one less check now.
Deoxys - E: OU, I've said it before, the only thing Deo-E has over Ferrothorn is Taunt and Screens. Ferrothorn can take hits, actually do damage, and Leech Seed while setting up hazards. IMO, Ferrothorn is far more broken than Deo-E.
Excadrill: OU; it's been voted OU three times already. It's not going anywhere.
Garchomp: Uber or Suspect; let's face it, Chomp and Excadrill were the only reasons Sand Stream was nominated. Excadrill has been OU 3 times. Im guessing Chomp is gonna go.
Thunderus: Since rain is staying, I'm leaning towards Uber now. However, I still have no clue which way it'll go.
Latios: Uber - Noithing has changed to make it any less so. In fact, +1 Blaziken won't outspeed and Shadow Claw/Stone Edge it anymore... so if anything, Latios has one less check now.
Deoxys - E: OU, I've said it before, the only thing Deo-E has over Ferrothorn is Taunt and Screens. Ferrothorn can take hits, actually do damage, and Leech Seed while setting up hazards. IMO, Ferrothorn is far more broken than Deo-E.
Excadrill: OU; it's been voted OU three times already. It's not going anywhere.
Garchomp: Uber or Suspect; let's face it, Chomp and Excadrill were the only reasons Sand Stream was nominated. Excadrill has been OU 3 times. Im guessing Chomp is gonna go.
Thunderus: Since rain is staying, I'm leaning towards Uber now. However, I still have no clue which way it'll go.
On the other hand, Deo-E can use the appropriate Screen to make it effectively bulkier than Ferrothorn- and therefore take more hits.
Ferrothorn can do damage, but given the shitty coverage it's STABs have, it's not hard to bring in a resist. Or even something slightly bulky, given that Ferro will be uninvested.
Raikaria, 15/43 Pokemon in OU have Fighting or Fire STAB. That's more than 1/3. And Then there's a ton of coverage Fire/Fighting moves. Not to mention every Grass type in OU.
I'm gonna be repetitive if I say anything else, but I whole-heartedly disagree with you on Ferrothorn.
Now for predictions:
Latios- I am honestly not sure. I very strongly doubt that it would get a supermajority, but I only needs a simple majority, so maybe... I hope it stay OU.
Deo-E- It'll prolly stay OU. I certainly want it to, because it's supporting capabilities aren't that much greater than those of other Pokemon. I don't think it should even be a suspect.
Excarill- lulz. No, just no. OU, obviously.
Garchomp- Uber. This thing has gotten so much hatred aimed at it. It was in almost every nomination. It created the Great Hax Panic of 2011. I can't possibly see it staying in OU.
Thundurus- Suspect, would be my guess. This thing has a lot of support to make it leave. A good number of voters think it's broken. But it doesn't seem to me that it'll get a supermajority, just because it's not as obviously broken as other things, like Blaziken, Skymin, Darkrai, etc. Because it's not considered broken by almost everyone, I doubt it'll go, although I think it's haters will make it a Suspect next round.
The attitudes of some people here continue to disgust me. Who actually looked at the results of the weather vote?
Drizzle
Ban: 39
Do Not Ban: 32
6 voters unaccounted.
That's very close to a tie. It could even have added up to 38-39 if the 6 others had voted.
Pro drizzle guys, you can't argue that "The voters decided that drizzle would stay." It annoys me that you're abusing your supposed upper/majority position as the intelligent non-scrubs who don't want drizzle gone because you're actually capable of dealing with it. There is no clear cut majority because the voters are divided over drizzle just like the community is. If one or two people had voted differently we would have had a completely different result.
Drizzle
Ban: 39
Do Not Ban: 32
6 voters unaccounted.
That's very close to a tie. It could even have added up to 38-39 if the 6 others had voted.
Pro drizzle guys, you can't argue that "The voters decided that drizzle would stay." It annoys me that you're abusing your supposed upper/majority position as the intelligent non-scrubs who don't want drizzle gone because you're actually capable of dealing with it. There is no clear cut majority because the voters are divided over drizzle just like the community is. If one or two people had voted differently we would have had a completely different result.
You got that mixed up. It was 39 Do Not Ban, and 32 Ban.
And JTSwift, for all you know, those 6 voters could've voted it OU, and then we would've had a 45-32 vote, which is much less close.
I am also anti-Drizzle, but you can't use those last 6 voters as a good argument, because we just don't know.
Either way, though, 39/32 is a lot closer than people are making it seem, definitely.
I'm.. honestly not sure. I've never had trouble with Drizzle, only with Thundurus and sometimes Toxicroak. That said, I know it's incredibly powerful, I'm just wondering if it's enough to be broken.
My opinion keeps changing on Drizzle. Now, I'm just completely torn. Not a clue which way I'd vote.
The only thing I think is broken right now is Excadrill. That said, its few counters have enough other uses for it to not be deemed broken.
I'm.. honestly not sure. I've never had trouble with Drizzle, only with Thundurus and sometimes Toxicroak. That said, I know it's incredibly powerful, I'm just wondering if it's enough to be broken.
My opinion keeps changing on Drizzle. Now, I'm just completely torn. Not a clue which way I'd vote.
The only thing I think is broken right now is Excadrill. That said, its few counters have enough other uses for it to not be deemed broken.
Argh, you're right. I mixed the numbers up.
I'd be extremely surprised if thundurus were banned. Garchomp definitely has a foot in the grave, but I hope everything else stays.
My wishlist was small everyone. Just drizzle and garchomp...
Are you kidding?, Deoxys-E can do several damage with Superpower, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Psycho Boost
Superpower OHKOes 252/0 Tyranitar with just 12 atk evs, and Psycho Boost murders everything that doesn't resist it, you can even put Fire Punch or hp fire somewhere and destroy Scizor, Ferrothorn and Forretress, and it can certainly take hits, that thing is so fast that it hits 396 spe with no investment, if you wan a support give it hp evs, and it can take tons of hits, if you want a sweeper, even with no hp evs it can survive a CB Scizor Bullet Punch at full health
Deoxys-E is NOT only a support pokemon, it can easily late game sweep a team with little effort, and not even Scarf Chomp can outspeed it
Back on topic, I want Latios to go, like I said, LO Calm Mind Latios 2HKOes spD Jirachi and Careful Tyranitar in Sandstorm, I don't really get why people don't notice this, Specs isn't even half as broken as Calm Mind with LO, the good thing is that nobody use this set, it's just a matter of time until someone discovers Latios full potential, it doesn't even need rain to defeat Tyranitar
Not that I can vote on it, or anything, but my banhammer wishlist is also small...Latios! That's it. If it goes, I'm just fine with everything else right where it is.
Keep in mind that the voting options were somewhat flawed, since they forced the votes of some viewpoints to be counted towards the votes for metagame changes that they did not actually want. By this I am talking about anybody who wanted all weather banned, but who would rather keep all weathers than throw off the balance by removing only one of the three. This sentiment could not be accurately voted for with the 3 common weathers being voted on individually.
Given that 16 people voted to ban Sand Stream (most of whom wanted all weather banned), I think that it is not unreasonable to think that as many as 7-8 voters may have held this opinion. If their numbers were removed from the Drizzle vote, the number of people who actually supported a ban on Drizzle by itself could have been less than 1/3 of the total voters - a significant number, but only half what is needed to ban it.
I think the voting options should have been something like (with people able to vote for all scenarios they would have wanted):
- Drizzle alone
- Drought and Drizzle
- Drizzle and Sand Stream
- Drought, Drizzle, and Sand Stream
- All 4 weathers
These choices would have more accurately represented the opinions of the suspect nominators. It didn't matter for this vote, but I think it's worth keeping in mind for future Rounds.
That being said, I think giving the incoming round of bans a chance to settle in before getting back to complaining about weather would be appropriate. With the impending loss of 1-2 of the game's biggest threats, any thoughts as to what specifically will happen to the metagame will be speculative at best.
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