np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[Mario With Lasers]

SHAYMIN-S IN OU. ​

Aaaaand that's why no one takes you seriously. Really, if you want to play mad scientist, how about you wait a*bit* more before suggesting bringing down shit that got an unanimous voting? Are you going to say Kyurem should be brought down to UU because its 100% BL vote was 100% biased?

Darkrai caused so much stir that a policy review thread was created to discuss banning sleep moves!

And there were more than a couple threads discussing the ban of "luck", such as Serene Grace or Critical Hits. Null point. Besides, Jabba wanted to have the right of nominating Sleep, the thread got more or less sidetracked into Sleep discussion.

 

[BurningMan]

People don't use Choice Scarf because nobody wants to be locked onto a weak move, when double dance Terrakion, Volcarona etc is everywhere. Politoed is used because Hydro Pump is 270 BP in rain and 2/3HKOes basically everything apart from Water immune pokemon, and Terrakion because it has a good speed stat and awesome STAB moves.

I think nachos is right here i really doubt noone uses CS users because of excadrill, but because its fucking dangerous to be locked into a move that allows dangerous threats to set-up (and we have quite a lot of them in the current metagame).

 

[Rosey Oak]

I think nachos is right here i really doubt noone uses CS users because of excadrill, but because its fucking dangerous to be locked into a move that allows dangerous threats to set-up (and we have quite a lot of them in the current metagame).

I'm on the fence about the this.

Whilst I agree with your statement on some level, i.e that there are more Pokemon this gen that can set up on CS Pokemon and therefore you wouldn't want to be stuck on the wrong move, I can't fully agree with you because you have only explored the negative side to choice scarf.

You have failed to take note of the positive aspect i.e revenge killing. With almost no choice scarf revenger killers in the Metagame, a Pokemon like Haxorus for example which can boost up it's speed with Dragon Dance, can only be stopped through the use of a counter or priority. In 4th gen however, such a threat could be dealt in a third reliable way i.e through the use of revenge killing.

I do feel that Excadrill is somewhat to blame for the lack of choice scarf users. What is the point of running choice scarf when it won't outrun and revenge kill one of the most common and deadly threats. Or why run choice scarf when you can use Excadrill with no draw backs. Overall, I think the lack of choice scarf users is essentially having a negative impact on the Metgame as it removes many potential counters to specific Pokemon.


EDIT: @Tobes
No. Scarftar was used for a completely different reason - this uncommon set acted as a surprise factor in order to outrun and revenge kill things it normally wouldn't.

 

[Tobes]

What is the point of running choice scarf when it won't outrun and revenge kill one of the most common and deadly threats. Overall, I think the lack of choice scarf users is essentially having a negative impact on the Metgame as it removes many potential counters to specific Pokemon.

That's like saying Scarftar was bad last gen because it couldn't revenge kill +1 Dragonite. So what if a scarfer can't outrun Excadrill, that doesn't automatically make it unviable. Scarfers are meant to patch up specific holes. You'd use Scarfchomp if you had problems with Thundurus / Volcarona / Lati@s, not because teams always "need" to have a scarfer. You can't prove that Excadrill makes Choice Scarf obsolete, because it doesn't, and you also can't prove that the relative lack of Scarfers is dentrimental. And in fact, I could argue that Excadrill keeps those boosters Scarfmons are usually used to check in line better than most Scarfers. And let's not forget Deoxys-S, who outspeeds most speed boosting Pokemon and Choice Scarfers and revenges them handily regardless of weather. Are you going to argue that it needs to go next because it's a better revenge killer than a lot of Scarfers?

To be honest I think the people complaining about Excadrill "overcentralizing" speed tiers are only doing so because it can't be revenge killed by a scarfer other than Politoed or lol-Deo-S.

 

[Curtains]

Hey guys don't you think if rain, sun, garchomp and excadrill were banned that we wouldnt be in this situation in the first place ? We are so bent up about keeping rain around that now all the next suspect test will determine whats broken in rain. Instead of banning 10+ pokemon that are broken in weather how about taking away the most broken weather (rain and sun) and start actually seeing which pokemon are broken.

 

[abnegation]

People don't use Choice Scarf because nobody wants to be locked onto a weak move, when double dance Terrakion, Volcarona etc is everywhere. Politoed is used because Hydro Pump is 270 BP in rain and 2/3HKOes basically everything apart from Water immune pokemon, and Terrakion because it has a good speed stat and awesome STAB moves.

And yeah Mamoswine is pretty cool and should definitely get more usage. Bronzong is seeing little use so Ice/Ground coverage wrecks teams.

That never stopped people from using Choice Scarf before.Being locked into a move is the price you pay for having the ability to revenge kill / outspeed and people were fine with that.

Now it's more of ' Why use a Scarfer to outspeed ( and therefore lock myself into something that is potentially set up fodder for the opponent) when I can just use Excadrill who can just outspeed everything including the Scarfers AND change moves ?

It's only logical that people use what is better.Excadrill is better because its boost in speed comes with no drawbacks.

 

[Nachos]

That never stopped people from using Choice Scarf before.Being locked into a move is the price you pay for having the ability to revenge kill / outspeed and people were fine with that.

Now it's more of ' Why use a Scarfer to outspeed ( and therefore lock myself into something that is potentially set up fodder for the opponent) when I can just use Excadrill who can just outspeed everything including the Scarfers AND change moves ?

It's only logical that people use what is better.Excadrill is better because its boost in speed comes with no drawbacks.

There's a lot more stuff in BW which can set up and sweep you than there was in DPP. In DPP, SD Lucario, Agility Metagross and DD Kingdra are some of the only Pokemon that can easily sweep someone, from the top of my head. BW has Terrakion, Thundurus, Volcarona, Excadrill and Haxorus, as well as everything from DPP. The first three are all Pokemon that have good chances of 6-0ing teams. The Pokemon in BW also have much better movepools and STAB than in DPP. Terrakion's STAB moves have some of the best offensive coverage available, for example.

The amount of easy to sweep set up Pokemon is also why I'm also willing to bet it as one of the main reasons for Latios not getting voted Uber. Locking yourself on -2 special attack is begging for any of the above to come in and sweep your team easily.

 

[abnegation]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Volcarona,Haxorus and Tornadus can be revenge killed by Scarfers even after they are set up.
Which brings us back to why use Scarfers when Excadrill is just faster and can change moves.
Terrakion realistically needs double dance to 6-0 you since without SD it isn't taking out your physical wall and without Rock Polish it isn't outspeeding your Scarfer ( or your Excadrill lol ) but +2 + 2 with any sweeper is basically GG so that's nothing special about Terrakion.

 

[Nachos]

You misunderstand, I'm talking about how Terrakion can set up on something locked on Fire Blast for example. If Terrakion does get a Rock Polish in, then Scarfed Pokemon (and Excadrill) won't be able to outspeed it anyway. For offensive teams that lack Gliscor, Scizor, Azumarill etc, that single speed boost may be all it needs to sweep. The ability to do that was rarer in DPP.

 

[Nkululeko]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Volcarona,Haxorus and Tornadus can be revenge killed by Scarfers even after they are set up.

Which is why Choice Scarf isn't obsolete. It's makes revenge killers.

Terrakion realistically needs double dance to 6-0 you since without SD it isn't taking out your physical wall and without Rock Polish it isn't outspeeding your Scarfer ( or your Excadrill lol ) .

The reason to run double dancing Terrakion is to handle threats according to the situation. If there's a Physical Wall, SD and knock it out. If there's a scarfer, use Rock Polish to outspeed it, simple as that. Your post made it seem as if Terrakion is facing those threats at the same time, which is impossible in the standard one on one matches.

but +2 + 2 with any sweeper is basically GG so that's nothing special about Terrakion

What makes Terrakion special is the fact that it gets both boosting moves, its pretty bulky, and has STABs that provide great coverage in only two moves, and has really good attack and speed. Not all sweepers have that.

 

[abnegation]

That's more of a bad team building issue though isn't it ? For something that is such a threat in the metagame you should be prepared for it even if your team is offensive.

Yes there are a lot more set-up sweepers this generation.However just like it always has been in order to stop a threat you have to do one of two things :
1.Outspeed it
2.Wall it

If it boosts its speed,send in a wall
If it boosts its attack,send in something faster to revenge.

 

[Nkululeko]

Yes there are a lot more set-up sweepers this generation.However just like it always has been in order to stop a threat you have to do one of two things :
1.Outspeed it
2.Wall it

If it boosts its speed,send in a wall
If it boosts its attack,send in something faster to revenge.

That's what makes Terrakion so useful. Rock Polish on option number 1, Swords Dance on number 2.

 

[scizorkills]

fuckkk i miss u garchomp

 

[sarkhan666]

fuckkk i miss u garchomp

you and me both pal :'(

 

[abnegation]

Which is why Choice Scarf isn't obsolete. It's makes revenge killers.

Why run Choice Scarf and potentially give your opponent free turns if you can just run Excadrill ?


The reason to run double dancing Terrakion is to handle threats according to the situation. If there's a Physical Wall, SD and knock it out. If there's a scarfer, use Rock Polish to outspeed it, simple as that. Your post made it seem as if Terrakion is facing those threats at the same time, which is impossible in the standard one on one matches.

If it SD's to knock out the physical wall it won't have enough speed to outspeed the Scarfer.If it RP's to outspeed the Scarfer it won't have enough juice to knock out the physical wall.
I can't be the only one that runs BOTH on the same team ?

What makes Terrakion special is the fact that it gets both boosting moves, its pretty bulky, and has STABs that provide great coverage in only two moves, and has really good attack and speed. Not all sweepers have that.

Terrakion does get both.However most if not all the time he will only have one turn and he has to pick which one boost he'd like.If your opponent let's you get both then that's his fault.
I can't see what makes this generations sweepers more dangerous than last gens.They certainly are not so dangerous that people won't run Scarfers anymore in fear of being swept after one turn of set up. There are more of them but you just handle them like you always did.

 

[abnegation]

That's what makes Terrakion so useful. Rock Polish on option number 1, Swords Dance on number 2.

I agree.Which is why I said the Double Dance set is the one that is realistically going to 6-0 the opponent.
However you only get one free turn.You can't do both in that one turn.
Whatever you pick your opponent will / should have an answer to it.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Quagsire on the hand, IS a catch all counter to Thundurus. At worst its taking (39.6% - 46.7%) from LO Focus Blast and it can beat Thundurus with a combination of Scald/Waterfall and Recover. We've already eliminated Grass Knot, so Quagsire doesn't have to worry anything Thundurus throws at it. (since its now hard countered by Blissey / Chansey and checked by a ton of other Pokemon if runs GK) If Thundurus is going on a Nasty Plot rampage, Quagsire is the only defensive Pokemon that can stop it 93.75% of the time.

We've eliminated grass knot, yes, but hang on..."it can beat Thundurus with a combination of Scald/Waterfall and Recover."

Now what if this here "nasty plot rampage" Thundurus has taunt? Quagsire is 3HKO'd by Focus blast (IDK how many with HP ice)...but can Quagsire 2HKO with scald in return? I doubt it.

 

[Paradoxus]

Skymin in OU would be absolute hell. It could use Parashuffler DNite with a Spinner and wreak havoc onto the OU metagame. Like mien said, it's like flipping a coin if you want to get any grain of momentum back. A Pokemon that has a move that has a 60% chance to half the opponent's SDef thats STAB coming off a 120 SAtk with 128 base Speed to outspeed Starmie and anyone except the 130 Speed group is ludicrous to let into OU. Think of OU this way (And I admit, this is kind of silly), it's a trampoline, and at the start all the fat kids were stealing everyone's bounce and nobody but them could bounce high. So the fat kids started to get kicked of the trampoline, and at the end of the game it would be very balanced and everybody would have fun. Thats what overcentralizing means, and threats like Skymin and Thundurus are over 300 pounds.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Skymin in OU would be absolute hell. It could use Parashuffler DNite with a Spinner and wreak havoc onto the OU metagame. Like mien said, it's like flipping a coin if you want to get any grain of momentum back. A Pokemon that has a move that has a 60% chance to half the opponent's SDef thats STAB coming off a 120 SAtk with 128 base Speed to outspeed Starmie and anyone except the 130 Speed group is ludicrous to let into OU. Think of OU this way (And I admit, this is kind of silly), it's a trampoline, and at the start all the fat kids were stealing everyone's bounce and nobody but them could bounce high. So the fat kids started to get kicked of the trampoline, and at the end of the game it would be very balanced and everybody would have fun. Thats what overcentralizing means, and threats like Skymin and Thundurus are over 300 pounds.

That's the stupidest pokemon comparison I've ever heard of...but it makes sense, so I like it.

 

[abnegation]

Skymin in OU would be absolute hell. It could use Parashuffler DNite with a Spinner and wreak havoc onto the OU metagame. Like mien said, it's like flipping a coin if you want to get any grain of momentum back. A Pokemon that has a move that has a 60% chance to half the opponent's SDef thats STAB coming off a 120 SAtk with 128 base Speed to outspeed Starmie and anyone except the 130 Speed group is ludicrous to let into OU. Think of OU this way (And I admit, this is kind of silly), it's a trampoline, and at the start all the fat kids were stealing everyone's bounce and nobody but them could bounce high. So the fat kids started to get kicked of the trampoline, and at the end of the game it would be very balanced and everybody would have fun. Thats what overcentralizing means, and threats like Skymin and Thundurus are over 300 pounds.

This is totally hilarious

... and accurate.

 

[sarkhan666]

Think of OU this way (And I admit, this is kind of silly), it's a trampoline, and at the start all the fat kids were stealing everyone's bounce and nobody but them could bounce high. So the fat kids started to get kicked of the trampoline, and at the end of the game it would be very balanced and everybody would have fun. Thats what overcentralizing means, and threats like Skymin and Thundurus are over 300 pounds.

lmao, best analogy ever. but seriously, yes. and thats how i feel about excadrill also. pretty much every team that doesnt run an azumarill/conkeldurr/skarmory/bronzong(?) is going to be cleaved in half by the thing. part of what makes choice scarf users balanced is that they have to lock themselves into their moves in exchange for their revenging capabilities. excadrill gets that insane speed (and therefore revenging capability) with absolutely no drawbacks, plus it has swords dance on top of that. smack a life orb on it and you can outspeed and 2hko pretty much all of ou.

whether or not he himself is broken is up for debate, but the fact that he centralizes the metagame so much that every team either has to run at least one check to him or be ran through is something i dont think we can ignore. its almost back to the days in DPPt where teams looked like:

lead
scarfchomp counter
sd chomp counter
other garchomp "check" in case the counters failed
garchomp
other pokemon

to me this makes the game boring and downright unplayable.

 

[shrang]

Quagsire on the hand, IS a catch all counter to Thundurus. At worst its taking (39.6% - 46.7%) from LO Focus Blast and it can beat Thundurus with a combination of Scald/Waterfall and Recover. We've already eliminated Grass Knot, so Quagsire doesn't have to worry anything Thundurus throws at it. (since its now hard countered by Blissey / Chansey and checked by a ton of other Pokemon if runs GK) If Thundurus is going on a Nasty Plot rampage, Quagsire is the only defensive Pokemon that can stop it 93.75% of the time.

How do you stop this?

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive / Timid
- Thunderbolt
- HP Ice
- Grass Knot
- Hammer Arm / Focus Blast

 

[Nkululeko]

excadrill gets that insane speed (and therefore revenging capability) with absolutely no drawbacks.

This assumption is incorrect and you're not the only one doing it. Sand must be up, which is pretty big seeing as 1 in every 10 battles has a Politoed and there is still Sun, Probopass w/Sunny Day to c-block it, and the occasional comedian with Hail.

How do you stop this?

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive / Timid
- Thunderbolt
- HP Ice
- Grass Knot
- Hammer Arm / Focus Blast

Excadrill Rockslide does 99% min but has to be careful switching in.

Edit: @abnegation

Why run Choice Scarf and potentially give your opponent free turns if you can just run Excadrill ?

Because some of us don't want to use Sand teams

If it SD's to knock out the physical wall it won't have enough speed to outspeed the Scarfer.If it RP's to outspeed the Scarfer it won't have enough juice to knock out the physical wall.
I can't be the only one that runs BOTH on the same team ?

Terrakion boosts according to what it's facing. The rest is just intelligent playing. Your not the only one with a physical wall and a scarfer on the same team, but Terrakion can handle both in the same match if played correctly.

Terrakion does get both.However most if not all the time he will only have one turn and he has to pick which one boost he'd like.If your opponent let's you get both then that's his fault.

You only need one boost. Pokemon matches are 6 on 6, not 6-1. Terrakion can switch out and more often than not uses the boost it needs to beat the pokemon on the field at the current moment. If Terrakion gets both boosts it's game over, but it's god because it's useful with only one. Which one, the one that fits the situation.

I can't see what makes this generations sweepers more dangerous than last gens.

Base 147 attack (Haxorus), Quiver Dance with 130 Base Sp Atk and Base 100 Speed (volcarona), 115/125/111 offenses with reliable coverage(Thundurus), etc.

They certainly are not so dangerous that people won't run Scarfers anymore in fear of being swept after one turn of set up. There are more of them but you just handle them like you always did.

I never said people would stop using Choice Scarf but you have to be smart about it. Either way, nobody wants Volcarona, Haxorus, Terrakion, Thundurus, etc to get free set up.

 

[Tobes]

EDIT: @Tobes
No. Scarftar was used for a completely different reason - this uncommon set acted as a surprise factor in order to outrun and kill things it normally wouldn't.

See, this is why I don't bother arguing with you for long. You just picked my most unimportant point and responded to it and nothing else. And I'm sorry to pull the join date card, but I really doubt you've played Gen 4 considering how new you are and your unfamiliarity with what Scarftar was used for. Scarftar may have been invented for surprise factor against Rotom-A, but it quickly became the glue for teams for its abiliy to revenge kill things like Gengar, Latias, Mixmence, most Infernape, Starmie, etc., and importantly for stall, its ability to absorb Trick and kill the user. (I'll admit I wasn't playing pre-Mence ban, but I do know Tar was primarily used to check Latias) It saw tons of use regardless of its inability to revenge kill Dragon Dancers. And what the hell do you mean by uncommon. Scarftar was the most common set near the end of DPPt, and although I don't have statistics to back the next part up now that 4th gen is dead, I'm pretty certain it's still the most common set in DPPt, except maybe for Choice Band.

 

[spweasel]

The biggest problem with the theory that Excadrill replaces all Choice Scarfers as revenge killers is the fact that Excadrill isn't a revenge killer at all. He's a weather sweeper. If you decide to just stick Tyranitar and Excadrill on your team instead of using a real revenge killer, you are asking to get screwed over by Rain teams.

A more likely cause for the death of the Choice Scarf is a simple case of power creep. These days, you really can't afford not to get a KO while revenging, and the thing you are getting revenge for often won't do any damage before dying. This means too many Scarfed "revenge killers" will fall short. Sure, you can tailor a revenge killer for any given target, but without enough damage behind your attacks, you'll just get forced out again.

It's often better to just use a naturally fast Pokemon and stick a Life Orb/Band/Specs on it to guarantee a KO on anything slower. This unfortunately lets Thundurus fall through the cracks somewhat since it's too fast for this to work except for a few Pokemon.

That being said, I still stand by my assessment that neither Excadrill nor Thundurus need to be banned right now. While neither is trivially countered, there do exist a few counters for each. Simply having counters wouldn't be enough to keep them from being banned, but I still think those counters are numerous enough and good enough on their own merits that Excadrill/Thundurus should be allowed to stay OU at least for the time being. Basically, I think they are very powerful, but I don't think they need to be banned.