Ok by your logic we'd have to test every pokemon with multiple abilities. For example, Espeon with Magic Bounce is UU but is Synchronize NU. I used Espeon in NU last gen, why can't I do it now? That's pretty much what you're saying. Now rinse and repeat for every single pokemon. It just gets massively out of hand.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Ok by your logic we'd have to test every pokemon with multiple abilities. For example, Espeon with Magic Bounce is UU but is Synchronize NU. I used Espeon in NU last gen, why can't I do it now? That's pretty much what you're saying. Now rinse and repeat for every single pokemon. It just gets massively out of hand.
That's more "Volcorona is really good" than "SR isn't that bad"...
I may add something. SR need to be use as a move. It takes one turn to be used, it can be taunted, reflected and you can get rid of it by using rapid spin. Weather on the contrary just nedd the pokemon to be here and it change much more than just (some) passive damage. And if the weather is banned, you can use the move. You know, sandstorm, rain dance, sunny day...
Note : I don't say that weather is really overpowered, but I hate using only one of 3 pokemon just to be at the same level of my opponent
Note : I don't say that weather is really overpowered, but I hate using only one of 3 pokemon just to be at the same level of my opponent
About the "Unnerve Garchomp" thing, I would like to clear that up. What it was was that someone said that Excadrill was a top-tier sweeper just like Garchomp, and look how Chomp got banned. I replied by saying that it was the hax chance that made Chomp broken and that if it had Unnerve as its only ability it would still be in OU.
Weather versus Stealth Rocks.
Yes, stealth rocks also shares the same characteristics as Drizzle/Drought in the sense that it allows Pokemon ‘X’ to live ‘Y’ and for Pokemon ‘Y’ to kill ‘Z’, however the damage of stealth rocks is greatly limited in comparison to weather. Stealth Rocks only majorly effects 4 types – Fire, Ice, Bug and Flying (three of which’s pure typing isn’t used in the OU Metagame due to their inferiority and heavy SR damage.) For the remaining type in OU that is heavy affected (Flying) and for those who are of a minimal or neutral typing, the damage of stealth rocks is limited to a small amount which only occurs on switching. Weather on the other hand, majorly affects the damage done to the majority of Pokemon.
For Example:
Rotom –W Hydro Pump versus Conkeldurr Max HP NO Rain:
339 Atk vs 166 Def & 414 HP (120 Base Power): 262 - 310 (63.29% - 74.88%) – Avg 68.84% - 284hp
Rotom –W Hydro Pump versus Conkeldurr Max HP in Rain:
339 Atk vs 166 Def & 414 HP (180 Base Power): 394 - 465 (95.17% - 112.32%) – Avg 103.14% - 426hp
426hp – 284hp = 142hp
The difference between Rain and NO Rain is 142HP. SR damage is 25.875HP.
426hp – 284hp = 142hp / SR 25.875hp – 142 – 25.875 = 116.125hp
The difference between Rain damage and SR damage is 116.125HP.
The difference in damage is undeniably greater in rain than it is with SR, but since Conkeldurr is resistant to SR let’s look at a Flying type in OU that takes heavy SR damage.
Example 2:
Rotom –W Hydro Pump versus Thundurus NO Rain:
339 Atk vs 196 Def & 299 HP (120 Base Power): 223 - 264 (74.58% - 88.29%) – Avg 80.60% - 240hp
Rotom –W Hydro Pump versus Thundurus in Rain:
339 Atk vs 196 Def & 299 HP (180 Base Power): 334 - 394 (111.71% - 131.77%) – Avg 120.74% - 361hp
361hp – 240hp = 121 hp
The difference between Rain and NO Rain is 121HP. SR damage is 90.25HP.
361hp – 240hp = 121 hp / SR 90.25hp – 121 – 90.25 = 30.75hp
The difference between Rain damage and SR damage is 30.75HP.
The side effect of rain does 11.73% more damage to Thundurus than heavy SR damage.
Therefore it is clear (to me) that Drizzle has an overall negative impact on the Metagame. It favours only specific Pokemon by increasing or decreasing damage inputs, but yet whilst Drizzle is giving specific Pokemon some sort of tactical boost, it is also putting many others at a major disadvantage. Pokemon such as Conkeldurr, who are given no benefits what so ever by rain, will still be victimised by those that do.
Furthermore, from my results I have shown that Rain has a greater impact on those that are SR weak, than SR itself. For those who aren’t SR (i.e the majority of OU) the damage cause by the side effects of rain is of a much greater scale.
As I have said before, such favourability and statistical impact for such a large number of Pokemon should not be brought on just by sending a Pokemon out without even using a move. Additionally, to make matters worse, there is no effective way to get rid of Drizzle and all of its effects other than by inducing your own weather (*cough* weather wars) or through the use of ‘Cloud 9’.
Where do we draw the line?
Yes, stealth rocks also shares the same characteristics as Drizzle/Drought in the sense that it allows Pokemon ‘X’ to live ‘Y’ and for Pokemon ‘Y’ to kill ‘Z’, however the damage of stealth rocks is greatly limited in comparison to weather. Stealth Rocks only majorly effects 4 types – Fire, Ice, Bug and Flying (three of which’s pure typing isn’t used in the OU Metagame due to their inferiority and heavy SR damage.) For the remaining type in OU that is heavy affected (Flying) and for those who are of a minimal or neutral typing, the damage of stealth rocks is limited to a small amount which only occurs on switching. Weather on the other hand, majorly affects the damage done to the majority of Pokemon.
For Example:
Rotom –W Hydro Pump versus Conkeldurr Max HP NO Rain:
339 Atk vs 166 Def & 414 HP (120 Base Power): 262 - 310 (63.29% - 74.88%) – Avg 68.84% - 284hp
Rotom –W Hydro Pump versus Conkeldurr Max HP in Rain:
339 Atk vs 166 Def & 414 HP (180 Base Power): 394 - 465 (95.17% - 112.32%) – Avg 103.14% - 426hp
426hp – 284hp = 142hp
The difference between Rain and NO Rain is 142HP. SR damage is 25.875HP.
426hp – 284hp = 142hp / SR 25.875hp – 142 – 25.875 = 116.125hp
The difference between Rain damage and SR damage is 116.125HP.
The difference in damage is undeniably greater in rain than it is with SR, but since Conkeldurr is resistant to SR let’s look at a Flying type in OU that takes heavy SR damage.
Example 2:
Rotom –W Hydro Pump versus Thundurus NO Rain:
339 Atk vs 196 Def & 299 HP (120 Base Power): 223 - 264 (74.58% - 88.29%) – Avg 80.60% - 240hp
Rotom –W Hydro Pump versus Thundurus in Rain:
339 Atk vs 196 Def & 299 HP (180 Base Power): 334 - 394 (111.71% - 131.77%) – Avg 120.74% - 361hp
361hp – 240hp = 121 hp
The difference between Rain and NO Rain is 121HP. SR damage is 90.25HP.
361hp – 240hp = 121 hp / SR 90.25hp – 121 – 90.25 = 30.75hp
The difference between Rain damage and SR damage is 30.75HP.
The side effect of rain does 11.73% more damage to Thundurus than heavy SR damage.
Therefore it is clear (to me) that Drizzle has an overall negative impact on the Metagame. It favours only specific Pokemon by increasing or decreasing damage inputs, but yet whilst Drizzle is giving specific Pokemon some sort of tactical boost, it is also putting many others at a major disadvantage. Pokemon such as Conkeldurr, who are given no benefits what so ever by rain, will still be victimised by those that do.
Furthermore, from my results I have shown that Rain has a greater impact on those that are SR weak, than SR itself. For those who aren’t SR (i.e the majority of OU) the damage cause by the side effects of rain is of a much greater scale.
As I have said before, such favourability and statistical impact for such a large number of Pokemon should not be brought on just by sending a Pokemon out without even using a move. Additionally, to make matters worse, there is no effective way to get rid of Drizzle and all of its effects other than by inducing your own weather (*cough* weather wars) or through the use of ‘Cloud 9’.
Where do we draw the line?
How are these calculations in any way conclusive? Any decent competitive battler knows that SR can have far more of an impact than Drizzle over the course of a game. They remove safe switchins and dissuade constant switching, and make it far easier to break through a well-built team than Drizzle does.
Nobody actually uses Cloud 9, because Golduck and Lilicky suck. Why do you keep bringing it up?
I'm beginning to think you don't actually play the game and base all of your ideas off of damage calculations. If you really want to make your case and prove me wrong, post some logs demonstrating how overpowering Drizzle is. The damage calcs you keep posting are not convincing in the slightest. You should not be posting here if you don't actually play.
Nobody actually uses Cloud 9, because Golduck and Lilicky suck. Why do you keep bringing it up?
I'm beginning to think you don't actually play the game and base all of your ideas off of damage calculations. If you really want to make your case and prove me wrong, post some logs demonstrating how overpowering Drizzle is. The damage calcs you keep posting are not convincing in the slightest. You should not be posting here if you don't actually play.
When I battle against this retarded thing Thundurus is, I'm glad SR exist.
I could say the same for Drizzle. The increase (or decrease) in damage from Drizzle *insert move* to a Pokemon in one turn, will be of a much greater level in many turns later.
For example - if you switch Virizion into Drizzles Hydro Pump, the damage will not only be superior than the damage done by SR for that turn, but the difference in damage will increase every turn whether my opponent switches out or not.
If I were to say "there is no effective way to get rid of Drizzle and all of its effects other than by inducing your own weather."
Then someone who opposes my opinion could quote me and say "you are wrong, Cloud 9 gets rid of weather too" (which someone has done in the past), therefore I said both for argument's sake (even though no one uses Cloud 9).
If I didn't play, then there would be no point in arguing.
While I agree with a lot of what Uiru said, I have to disagree on a few of his opinions. I already responded to the matter of banning Pokémon + Ability here. I'd also like to say that I'd much rather repeal Evasion Clause before unbanning Moody. Too bad Evasion Clause has existed since Gen I...
I agree with what Uiru said, there is a big difference between a pokemon and its ability, and a pokemon and its item, level, moves, evs, ivs, and all that other stuff. I don't see why we can't treat it differently.
And please stop with the different tiers for different abilities bullshit, I am sure no one wants that. Under the current system it would be pretty easy to ban certain pokemon with certain abilities, not tier them as they want you to think. If you don’t understand the difference between a tier and a ban, you need to study smogon policy a bit more.
And please stop with the different tiers for different abilities bullshit, I am sure no one wants that. Under the current system it would be pretty easy to ban certain pokemon with certain abilities, not tier them as they want you to think. If you don’t understand the difference between a tier and a ban, you need to study smogon policy a bit more.
Can you understand theorymon for once?
it's called "Picking a useless ability to demonstrate how Sand Veil broke him"
I don't see the difference between saying Magic Bounce Espeon is banned from NU while Synchronize Espeon is not, and SB Blaziken is banned from OU while Blaze Blaziken is not.
How's that going to help? You max out +6 or +6/+6. Moody Pokemon max out at +6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6. If you try to have a boosting war, you're going to lose because you can't boost anymore after 3~6 turns, while they still can.
Yes and yes? You can't actually HIT them while they're doing Protect/Sub, and a single appropriate Defense/Evasion Boost certainly buys them more turns to potentially get more "stalling" boosts.
Yes, and what exactly does a Metagross reach after Smeargle BPs aforementioned +6 to it?
Whirlwind is affected by Evasion, btw, and there's a good chance they have more Moody abusers on their team then you have Aura Sphere users. Not to mention, as it turns out, that players tend to provide team support for their Moody guys.
Just curious, you ARE aware of the several-month-long suspect testing system where everyone DID abuse the hell out of Moody (and won :P), right?
I mean, there's no using "imagining" and being "certain" when we've, y'know, already seen it in action for several months.
You act like we're just theorymonning this, when in reality, WE theorymonned it to be an absolutely useless, and then people STARTED using it, and THEN we found out it was horribly broken.
Excadrill makes scarfers obsolete? Really? What if I need different resistances to switch into something for the revenge kill? What if I need to use a different type of attack? What if I need to use a special move? Scarf terrakion still outspeeds everything regardless of excadrill's existance.
Also, what happens if we unban skymin? Will the entire metagame flinch collectively? Probably not. How about the beneficial effects? Consider this:
Scarf skymin can switch in on adamant excadrill's EQ and outspeed it.
It can take on rain and sand teams, functioning as a cover all check.
The calcs I posted show that skymin has plenty of checks in OU. The majority of which don't even need to run a dedicated set. Hell, even standard conkeldurr can take it on with stone edge! I've said it before and I'll say it again: Skymin is annoying, but it's not broken. If a pokemon is OU viable it should be in the OU tier regardless of how many people dislike it. I thought that smogon policy was to have a diverse metagame with as few bans as possible?
Skymin wouldn't limit diversity. It doesn't endanger any specific playstyles (maybe heckle hyper offense teams with a scarf?) or target any specific pokemon. It would promote rotom-H and mamoswine use (yay!) It's unique as well. That is, I don't think that it outclasses anything. Flying type attackers? Tornadus is still better. It has higher special attack, prankster support and hurricane. Togekiss? Better bulk, nasty plot, twave, body slam, roost... Grass types? It can't outperform defensive/bulky grass types. Celebi, venusaur and virizion are the only offensive grass types in OU that use special attacks. I don't think that skymin outclasses any of them. Maybe it's presence would encourage scarf use?
So skymin isn't going to limit diversity, it won't outclass anything, it's easily dealt with if you prepare for it and it has some potentially beneficial effects.
Why is it uber?
Also, what happens if we unban skymin? Will the entire metagame flinch collectively? Probably not. How about the beneficial effects? Consider this:
Scarf skymin can switch in on adamant excadrill's EQ and outspeed it.
It can take on rain and sand teams, functioning as a cover all check.
The calcs I posted show that skymin has plenty of checks in OU. The majority of which don't even need to run a dedicated set. Hell, even standard conkeldurr can take it on with stone edge! I've said it before and I'll say it again: Skymin is annoying, but it's not broken. If a pokemon is OU viable it should be in the OU tier regardless of how many people dislike it. I thought that smogon policy was to have a diverse metagame with as few bans as possible?
Skymin wouldn't limit diversity. It doesn't endanger any specific playstyles (maybe heckle hyper offense teams with a scarf?) or target any specific pokemon. It would promote rotom-H and mamoswine use (yay!) It's unique as well. That is, I don't think that it outclasses anything. Flying type attackers? Tornadus is still better. It has higher special attack, prankster support and hurricane. Togekiss? Better bulk, nasty plot, twave, body slam, roost... Grass types? It can't outperform defensive/bulky grass types. Celebi, venusaur and virizion are the only offensive grass types in OU that use special attacks. I don't think that skymin outclasses any of them. Maybe it's presence would encourage scarf use?
So skymin isn't going to limit diversity, it won't outclass anything, it's easily dealt with if you prepare for it and it has some potentially beneficial effects.
Why is it uber?
Like I said, there is no mechanical difference whatsoever between abilities and items. Sorting those out alone would be a huge hassle for a single Pokémon, but it would be necessary for the sake of fairness. Hell, a Pokémon's level is revealed as soon as it comes out (and even shows in the team preview of PBR, though that isn't relevant). It would be much easier to enforce a level cap than an ability combo ban in an exhibition or tournament setting.
I stand by this reason for keeping Shaymin-S in the Uber tier.
I think the problem with "different abilities in different tiers" is that it applies to so many Pokemon that it would be far too complicated to implement. Just off the top of my head, I can name Garchomp, Blaziken, Espeon, Reuniclus, Togekiss, Toxicroak, Venusaur, Dragonite, Cloyster, Dugtrio, and Azumarill, and the list is probably far more expansive than that. All of them have multiple abilities with one clearly dominating the others. There's no reason to test them with each ability, even Blaziken, because 1) it would create unnecessary complication, and 2) these Pokemon seem to be just fine where they are.
Scarfmin would just make Excadrill go Jolly, problem solved for Sand teams <,<
So, all Skymin is going to do it completely out class the already barely used Togekiss and destroy even prepared teams through Seed Flare + Air Slash hax.
Scarfers? What does Skymin care? Isn't HE running a scarf too to out speed Adamant Excadrill? :o
So now I can't use scarfers against it because of the chance that it's carrying a scarf itself and will flinch my whole team to death.
Oh wait, now it's behind a Sub and healing itself with Leech Seed D:
I'll just switch in Ferrothorn, right? BAM -2 Sp.def! Oh crap, now he's killing my landmine!
I'll just switch in my Chans- OH MY GOD!
Keep Skymin in Ubers. No one else wants Satan's spawn in OU.
It should be pretty clear Skymin will not be coming back. Please stop pushing for it Swift >_>
I do not have an abundance of time, so in point order:
-I concede Moody.
-Lots of Pokémon have a good ability and a bad one; we are talking about banning the BROKEN abilities, not tiering the good ones. There is a chief difference here. Neither of Espeon's abilities are broken in its current un-banned tier, so there is no need to mess with it.
-Skymin in OU would result in 3-4 Ice Shards per team, and Inner Focus dudes everywhere else. It would be an absolute catastrophe. I'd be more interested in giving Manaphy a look again before Skymin.
~Uiru
-I concede Moody.
-Lots of Pokémon have a good ability and a bad one; we are talking about banning the BROKEN abilities, not tiering the good ones. There is a chief difference here. Neither of Espeon's abilities are broken in its current un-banned tier, so there is no need to mess with it.
-Skymin in OU would result in 3-4 Ice Shards per team, and Inner Focus dudes everywhere else. It would be an absolute catastrophe. I'd be more interested in giving Manaphy a look again before Skymin.
~Uiru
Don't insult me with stupid posts like this.
If flinchhax is so terrible, why are jirachi and togekiss OU? Give them both scarfs and they can "flinchhax the shit out of prepared teams" too.
ScarfRachi Iron Head is still weak as hell, and is begging for Excadrill to come in. Togekiss is too slow to take advantage of the flinch.
Skymin's flinchhax shenanigan is only HALF the reason it went to Ubers, the other half involves Seed Flare bs (how do you switch in something when it has like a 70% chance to cut your Sp. Def in half?). Most resists and even a few 4x resists had issues coming in.
No wonder no one takes you seriously.
Jolly Excadrill is already the most common one.
What Ice shard users are OU? Cloyster. Possible Ice Sharders if Skymin is let into OU? Mamoswine.
Great options, amirite?
Wear it down with rocks? It has Leech Seed.
Sap Sipper? Only Afrobull can run it without caring.
Air Hax has a 60% chance to flinch and not everyone has godly luck with flinch percentages.
Scarfer? What scarfer? Didn't you just say Skymin would use a scarf to outrun Excadrill?
What if Focus Blast misses? It only has 70% accuracy? I guess that means Reuniclus doesn't have much of a chance against T-tar :(
Air Slash > Walls
Btw, isn't that also why no one likes to use scarfers?
Tries? It has like an 80%(IIRC) chance to get the drop and it doesn't even need it! Air Slash is neutral and good luck T-waving it.
inb4Substitute
Substitute again! Air Slash flinch! Weak beam! Toxi-blocked! Weakmic Toss unable to break said subs! Woohoo!
JT could you please tell me how your chansey is able to have 5 moves at once and inflict two status conditions on one pokemon at the same time? If I knew how to do that with my pokemon shaymin-s surely wouldn't be a threat.
That was sarcasm. Kinda implied by ice beam on chansey.
Kefka, go back one page and have a look at the damage calcs I posted. Air slash is a 4HKO on specially defensive -2 skarm. Seed flare can't 2HKO -2 bronzong. Air slash is a 5HKO on -2 chansey.
Skymin has checks shooting out of it's huge ears. It can be handled regardless of flinches and drops. Stop glorifying it. (Everyone, I mean. Not just you Kefka.)
Kefka, go back one page and have a look at the damage calcs I posted. Air slash is a 4HKO on specially defensive -2 skarm. Seed flare can't 2HKO -2 bronzong. Air slash is a 5HKO on -2 chansey.
Skymin has checks shooting out of it's huge ears. It can be handled regardless of flinches and drops. Stop glorifying it. (Everyone, I mean. Not just you Kefka.)
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