I can't really tell if you are joking or not...If you are not joking it is obvious you have never played in this meta...
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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284*1.5=426
And your saying Blaze's speed is poor?
previously it could even run some bulk by dropping 34 points to outspeed scarfchomp at +2.
And your saying Blaze's speed is poor?
previously it could even run some bulk by dropping 34 points to outspeed scarfchomp at +2.
Who cares about Blaze Blaziken though? It's basically inferior to Speed Boost Blaziken in nearly every single way.
How many times have I seen this exact same conversation? Honestly, I have to agree with XienZo: "Who cares about Blaze Blaziken" is essentially what I think about the matter. Why is Blaze Blaziken so important to you guys? That's a serious question by the way, I honestly want to know why it's such a big issue.
I agree with capefeather's suggestion. How better way can we find out the more desirable (balanced and varied) metagame than having a separate Drizzle-less Suspect Ladder? No more theorymon, but actual experience to back things up. I think it is the only way to reach a common ground between the split pro- and anti- Drizzle factions. If HP Fire Latios under the Sun, Excadrill under Sandstream, or Drought Teams begin to prove as intolerable, then we know that having Drizzle (with Aldaron's Proposal intact) have contributed to a more balanced metagame, for instance.
I doubt that Drizzle will be banned this round, since it needs supermajority, so this Suspect Ladder will be perfect. There is of course an issue of time. Not the duration of the Suspect Round, but the time that individual qualified suspect voters are required to play on both Ladders. I would certainly consider lowering the voting qualification.
There is 1 question, though - would we bring back Manaphy and Thundurus (if it gets banned) in the Suspect Ladder or not? I mean Manaphy and Thundurus are often discussed with the presence of Drizzle. I am thinking that a Drizzle-less Suspect should have Manaphy and even Thundurus, assuming voters would vote them down to OU if Drizzle is banned (I mean, people nominated Manaphy to go down to OU last round). I think that unbanning Manaphy (and Thundurus) would provide us with the real picture of a Drizzle-less metagame.
Pbbt, neither did my patented Choice Specs Groudon set, but they didn't make an exception for ME and my Groudon, did they now?
There have been entire threads detailing why that argument is faulty, but I will summarize again here.
You say Blaziken is a "good UU Pokemon," and that by banning it as a whole we took away a non broken Pokemon. However, Abilities are part of a Pokemon just as much as moves or IVs or even level. If we are making a complex ban just to keep Blaziken from being Uber, shouldn't we logically make one to keep my personal favorite Uber, Sky Shaymin, in OU. Or any Uber for that matter.
People try to argue that it is different because Abilities are somehow special, but really, that is just plain false. A Pokemon is a Pokemon and it encompasses every aspect of itself. The entire argument is derived from the idea that certain Pokemon are "Uber worthy," and other are not, and simply because Blaziken doesn't fit the characteristics of an Uber that people come up with without any competitive reasoning, they believe it should be treated differently.
As much as you might hate to admit it, Blaziken is no different from guys like Skymin in this regard. Both are Pokemon, both are powerful, and both are Uber. Just because you think of it as a UU Pokemon does not mean we should make stupid rules to put it there.
Uber is Uber.
Lazy? Are you suggesting we should test and evaluate every single mon and their abilities for tiring? Because if we implement complex ban for a selection of few mons, that wouldnt be quite fair. Blaze blacken and sb blacken are two of the same mons to me. I just don't like complex bans. Now if we had like ten years to stabilize the meta to test all mon+ability combos then sure. Why not but we dont
I would definitely consider Manaphy for testing in OU if Drizzle is banned. Thundurus, I'm not so sure about.
Personally I don't consider Thundurus to be ban-worthy anyway. I think the only advantages it has over Latios are Prankster and no-miss STAB Thunder in the rain. Latios possesses more power, lacks a Stealth Rock weakness, and has better type coverage (not to mention the infamous Specs Draco Meteor), which allow it to destroy many of its checks (with good prediction) better than Thundurus can. Latios can even run Calm Mind and/or bulkier sets so it isn't as easily revenge killed by Starmie, something I don't believe Thundurus can do.
EDIT: A small edit regarding Blaziken. Pokemon are supposed to perform to the best of their ability, and Blaziken does so by running Speed Boost. Banning only SB Blaziken would defeat that purpose. I don't think we can consider SB and Blaze Blaziken to be two separate Pokemon, because they aren't.
Personally I don't consider Thundurus to be ban-worthy anyway. I think the only advantages it has over Latios are Prankster and no-miss STAB Thunder in the rain. Latios possesses more power, lacks a Stealth Rock weakness, and has better type coverage (not to mention the infamous Specs Draco Meteor), which allow it to destroy many of its checks (with good prediction) better than Thundurus can. Latios can even run Calm Mind and/or bulkier sets so it isn't as easily revenge killed by Starmie, something I don't believe Thundurus can do.
EDIT: A small edit regarding Blaziken. Pokemon are supposed to perform to the best of their ability, and Blaziken does so by running Speed Boost. Banning only SB Blaziken would defeat that purpose. I don't think we can consider SB and Blaze Blaziken to be two separate Pokemon, because they aren't.
What the hell are you on? Skymin isn't comparable in the least. It has one designated ability. It can't change it's Sky Forme ability without changing into the crappy Grass Type that is its land forme.
Unlike Blaziken, there actually isn't any justification to Skymin.
It's not a stupid rule, it's you people being too lazy to actually think for a few seconds and say "Hey, maybe we should actually try something instead of banning everything outright."
Unlike Blaziken, there actually isn't any justification to Skymin.
It's not a stupid rule, it's you people being too lazy to actually think for a few seconds and say "Hey, maybe we should actually try something instead of banning everything outright."
We did Drizzle + Swift Swim (not that I agree with it), so keep your accusations accurate at least.
Pokemon are not eternally locked into a certain tier. If that were the case, Blaziken would never have been UU in the first place. If a pokemon (ie the stats/movepool/abilities that come in a package) is too broken, it is banned, end of story. We have no reason to do otherwise and honestly OU does not concern itself with the effects its bans have on UU. UU plays within the constraints given to it.
I hate to have to bring this up, but a May 2011 join date combined with your current posts imply that you don't understand the way things are done around here. No one forces you to play by Smogon rules. Either learn and accept them, or consider play somewhere else.
I see you ingored the majority of my post. Thanks.
Abilities are no different than any other aspect of a Pokemon. Sure Skymin can't drop an ability and become OU, but it could drop Air Slash and/or Seed Flare. Just because you want Blaziken out of Ubers does not make it special. If we can nerf 1 Pokemon, we need to nerf them all.
Your entire argument is based on the fact that Abilities are somehow special. They are not.
Can you, please, explain to me why you think Blaze Blaziken and Speed Boost Blaziken are not the same Pokemon called Blaziken?
A Pokemon's abilities are attributes of a Pokemon, and we only ban according to attributes when the attributes themselves are broken independent of whatever Pokemon has them. Otherwise, we ban the whole Pokemon. We also don't intentionally "nerf" anything to make it usable, as we aren't the game designers. The stats, moves, and abilities a Pokemon gets isn't up to us. We're only allowed to decide what is breaking the game we play. Blaziken did so, so we banned him, plain and simple.
Now for the love of all holy beings ever... Stop. Talking. About. Blaziken.
Or better yet, we can ignore the troll.
I'm interesting in seeing how people feel about Capefeather's suggestion of a suspect ladder that would lack Drizzle.
Ideally, we would wait until Thundurus' fate is sealed next round (it will either go or stay), and not reintroduce Manaphy and Thundurus until results are conclusive, since we don't want any variables other than Drizzle involved in the test. It would literally be OU, without Drizzle, but with the same pokemon allowed.
I'm interesting in seeing how people feel about Capefeather's suggestion of a suspect ladder that would lack Drizzle.
Ideally, we would wait until Thundurus' fate is sealed next round (it will either go or stay), and not reintroduce Manaphy and Thundurus until results are conclusive, since we don't want any variables other than Drizzle involved in the test. It would literally be OU, without Drizzle, but with the same pokemon allowed.
As much as I think such a suspect ladder is a good idea in theory, I would be against implementing it, for 1 reason and one reason only, it turns tiering into a game of favoritism. It would make the vote on Drizzle not one of "is drizzle Broken," but one of "which metagame do I like more." As much as we want a metagame that we enjoy, not everyone has the same tastes, and our bans should be based solely on what is broken. Such a ladder will only encourage voting bias.
Sun teams everywhere.
For starters, the suspect ladder was used a few times last gen without said results. Second, it wouldn't be a permanent ladder, so anyone playing with the intention of staying on it indefinitely would not be able to. Third, the more enjoyable metagame is naturally the less broken one, and while the average player may vote based on preference, I think we can assume that our more intelligent voters would be casting their votes based on the ultimate health of the metagame.
It's not like tiering isn't already a subjective process. Votes of ban vs. do not ban are quite literally "the game is more fun without this vs. the game is more fun with this."
I love how these 1-sentence assertions make no attempt to look past the "obvious" results of a proposition. If anything, Sand would be more popular.
It's not like tiering isn't already a subjective process. Votes of ban vs. do not ban are quite literally "the game is more fun without this vs. the game is more fun with this."
I love how these 1-sentence assertions make no attempt to look past the "obvious" results of a proposition. If anything, Sand would be more popular.
Without drizzle sun really will be all over the place. Things are cd issue and volcaronA and such will be such menaces. Theorymoning sucks but really that's the only thing I can do on this discussion of a suspect ladder meta. I'd much rather see a suspect ladder without weathers much like the clear skies meta
Favoritism is a stupid thing to be subjected to.
Hell why not even give random abilities to other ubers to make them usable in ou and uu? I'd rather test other things that need our immediate attention than get into all that because like I saI'd in my prev post, we don't have enough time for all that crap. Even without complex banning it took us the whole gen 4 period to do the suspect testing and of. We never finished stabilizing the meta.
Favoritism is a stupid thing to be subjected to.
Hell why not even give random abilities to other ubers to make them usable in ou and uu? I'd rather test other things that need our immediate attention than get into all that because like I saI'd in my prev post, we don't have enough time for all that crap. Even without complex banning it took us the whole gen 4 period to do the suspect testing and of. We never finished stabilizing the meta.
I am in full support of a Drizzle-less suspect ladder. Even as a Drizzle user myself, seeing Politoed on every other team does not make for a fun metagame. Tyranitar on every other team is OK because Sand only boosts two relevant threats who share similar checks. Playing around Starmie/Croak/Thundurus/Tornadus/other random shit that likes Thunder/Surf/Hurricane/Waterfall is just bullshit.
I agree for the most part, except for one critical sentence
This is not technically true. It is very possible that a weatherless metagme could be more broken than one with weather, but if people are fed up with weather, they would have more fun in it regardless of how broken it is. And as I said, different people have different tastes. While many of the voters might find drizzle to be more fun, maybe non voters disagree. The voters should be voting purely on whether or not it is broken, not on whether they will personally enjoy the matagame more after a ban.
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