np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[haunter]

Drizzle doesn't break Ferrothorn and Thundurus. Ferro is nowhere near broken even with rain halving its 4X weakness to fire and Thundurus is probably broken by itslef as even without 100% accurate thunders it would still be almost uncounterable and incredibly hard to check.

 

[Azule]

Granted, but Drizzle pushes several Pokemon to borderline broken, or even over the edge. Thundurus would probably only be borderline broken if it didn't have accurate Thunder, not easily broken. Drizzle makes a lot of Pokemon borderline broken, even frickin Starmie, being able to fire off a 120 BP STAB with it's high speed. Drizzle pushes several Pokemon to the edge, or even over the edge in several cases.

 

[haunter]

I've never seen people complaining about Starmie and to be honest the fact than Drizzle makes Pokemon such as Toxicroak and Gastrodon usable in OU is only healty for the metagame as it grants diversity. Thundurus is an isolated case and I don't really think that it would get less bitching with thunderbolt over thunder. If anything t-bolt is more reliable as it has 100% accuracy even with sandstorm and sun.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

There's 38 Swift Swimmers in the game, and honestly, I doubt half of them would even see significant usage if they were unbanned.

 

[jiggz16]

If that is to happen, the suspect ladder should have both Drizzle and Drought removed, because if not for three Pokemon (Tyranitar, Politoed, Hippowdon), Drought would easily be the most broken weather. The fact that it's countered by two extremely common Pokemon does not mean that it's not broken.

I disagree. As several people have brought up, the banning of Drizzle DOES NOT automatically mean the emergence of Drought and Sun as a dominant weather. Sandstorm was by far and away a more dominant weather than Hail last generation and it was nowhere near "broken" or "banworthy." Sure, Sandstorm may not provide the same benefits as Sun like a 1.5 boost on Fire attacks while reducing Water attacks to half power and giving Chlorophyll pokes a 2x Speed boost with one-turn Solarbeam. However, most Sun abusers are either Stealth Rock weak (which is STILL a huge part of the metagame, considering the amount of calculations that are made with Stealth Rock damage taken into account) or have below average STABS (Venusaur) or are severely weak to common priority (Shiftry).

I am not at all saying that Sun would not become a dominant weather without the presence of Drizzle. I am saying that making such a claim and testing a ladder without BOTH Drought and Drizzle right away would be foolish. The amount of Pokemon that Drizzle affects are not only far and away more numerous than the number of Pokemon that Drought affects, but Drizzle affects types that are generally considered superior for a number of reasons offensively that I feel don't really need to be outlined. Even without the presence of Swift Swim, I believe that the benefits of Drizzle outweigh the benefits of Drought defensively to great effect.

Introducing Drizzle not only increases Water's offensive prowess and defensive staying power against Fire types, but also essentially helps eliminate a weakness from one of, if not the most important defensive types in the game in Steel. Steel is the only type that resists the most powerfully offensive type in game in Dragon. This is an important aspect that Drought and Sun do not provide. The weakening of Water-type attacks is nowhere near as hard to play around as the weakening of Fire-type attacks. Sun eliminates one weaknes of Ground, Rock, and Fire types. The former two are weak to Grass, another common Sun-type, and Fire is Stealth Rock and Earthquake weak (not to mention all three types are completely boned by Drizzle on defense and Fire on both offense and defense, which can't exactly be said the other way around).

Furthermore, Drizzle affects the metagame in other ways, mostly as a check to the highly discussed Excadrill, and reducing the walling capabilities of the most common Pokemon in the game, Tyranitar.

I understand that most of this post seems Anti-Drizzle. However, I personally find Drizzle to be completely manageable with Excadrill being a bigger pain that can still be worked around. I merely made this post to provide my thoughts against the mindset that Drought would become the Drizzle if Drizzle didn't exist. If it was, wouldn't there be a more even split between the two?

 

[Rosey Oak]

I think keeping the AP at this point is more counter productive than allowing the swift swimmers back, since even with Drizzle's most poetent ability removed from play, it's still suspect. That should pretty much spell out how overpowered the weather is. Now maybe I'm missing something, but when something in it's nerfed form is still causing problems, I'd assume we'd get rid of it instead entirely, instead of trying to nerf it more to fit OU.

I really don't feel Drizzle should be getting this much special treatment. I mean, we didn't say Garchomp can stay in OU if it doesn't run Sub SD set in Sand, so we shouldn't weaken rain to stay either. From what I'm reading, the people that generally don't want to repeal AP are wanting to keep rain OU no matter what, instead of simply getting rid of what's broken. Last time I checked, things got banned by their best capabilities instead of tailor made to fit.

So, if things like Kingdra or Gene Bro end up in ubers and Rain is balanced after that, so be it, I'd much prefer that than outright banning the weather. But, at the same, if nearly every Swift Swimmer + other weather abusing things (like Dragonite and Gene Bro just for example) ends up banned, I think it would be better for Rain to get the boot instead, since that's proof to me that the weather is breaking them and not the other way around. This is all my personal opinion though, so take it with a grain of salt.

Although I don't like the idea of Swift Swimmers rampaging about in OU (because in my opinion Drizzle is overpowered as it is at the moment), this does make sense. Swift Swim was banned because it was deemed the crucial factor which broke Drizzle, however in reality "Swift Swim IS NOT the problem. Drizzle is. Swift Swim is perfectly manageable under Damp Rocked Rain Dance, but it isn't manageable under infinite rain."

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Well, Drizzle breaking more shit than only the Swift Swimmers (if it breaks) should be expected, as we're talking about a weather condition that boosts the STAB of biggest type in the game, second to Normal... This is not a matter of quantity, but of quality. If Drizzle positively affects 100 pokémon and break other 10, while Drought positively affects 30 pokémon and break 4, which weather is worse?

 

[alexwolf]

@Alexwolf

Ok, you're right I did miss one realiable counter for all my agruments - Toxicroak, sorry that it slipped my mind. But even so, the one or two counter's that I did miss does not change the basis of my argument. i.e

"Excadrill is priority weak to two moves whereas Swift swimmers (with the exception of Armaldo) are resistant to both Aqua Jet and Bullet Punch, whilst also taking neutral damage from Mach Punch and Extreme Speed.

Now that it’s established we won’t be easily killing swift swimmers by priority, let’s take a look at our other options. Nothing (except Deoxy-s) will be out speeding Drizzle Swift swimmers, therefore we can’t outrun and revenge kill them easily either. I guess we’re only left with one option – to counter wall them."


As for checks (which don't involve the Prankster Ability) - it would A. need to be faster and/or B. have enough HP left to live the switch in damage.

No Pokemon will be faster than Drizzle Swift swimers unless you count 'Scarf Tyranitar' and 'Scarf Ninetales' like you said. Therefore we can only rely on option B. which requires a Pokemon to take the switch in damage and live another attack since it will be slower. If you think that many Pokemon meet this requirement please give me a list of examples because nothing springs to my mind at the moment.

I didn't just added 1 counter that you forgot...Most of the pokes that you mentioned have 3 to 4 counters and 3 to 4 checks at least...!This is absolutely fine in my book!
Also i will say to you again that if the some SSers can only be dealt with counters and we don't want that it's ok we will ban them...So you don't have to worry about them.Also many of the SSers have have small intial speed and can be revenged by scarf users as scarf thundurus or whatever...The fact that now scarf users are non-existent doesn't say anything...If the metagame need their help then it will have it...
Also there are a lot of checks to all the threats you mentinoed that are not walls by any means.F.e starmie can check golduck,bulk up poliwrath,crunch-less floatzel etc.Also i did a mistake before...Ninetales doesn't even need a scarf to outspeed the SSers as the only one that normally outspeeds her is floatzel who won't be running max speed anyway...So a specs ninetales is a very decent check ohkoing floatzel with energy ball,armaldo with overheat and putting to sleep things that it can't hurt...These are some quick checks that i found in 2 minutes .I am sure that more will be found if the need arises...Anyway i will tell you again!Any SSer that will be broken will get banned.So you don't have to worry...
I personally prefer banning every poke that poses a problem instead of banning 18 pokes in conjuction with drizzle.

Also a final note to those saying that it is drizzle's fault that it makes so many pokes overpowered.No it is not.The brokeness of those pokes is caused by a multitude of reasons like their stats,typing,movepool,ability and drizzle.Drizzle is just a factor to the whole package!!!So for example there are many rain abusers that are absolutely fine and not broken at all.So i think that the best solution would be to ban the whole package instead of removing elements that we don't like like we have always been doing...

@Everyone in general

Lastly, some people seem to be under the impression that in order for something to be broken, it must have no realible counters what so ever. I particularly blame Thundurus for the misinterpretation of the word.

Please keep an open mind on the true definition of the word 'broken' before drawing conclusions, and if you honesty still want Swift Swimmers back in OU after taking everything into account, then make a decent argument as to why this would benefit OU instead of justifying it with the opinionated comment which I have seen so far i.e because it sounds like a good idea.

Most of the people here already know that if a pokemon has counters it doesn't mean that it can't be broken!And of 'course it is better to bring the SSers to ou so we can finally do the standart procedure!Ban the broken pokes and not the factors that break them!To finally clear up the whole mist floating around drizzle!

 

[capefeather]

I would just like to say that the issue of having a separate ladder was already posted a while ago and I proposed a suspect ladder back then. I'd also like to clarify that I intended the suspect ladder proposal to be considered for implementation in the event in the future that there are no suspects under the current process but Drizzle is still at a near-deadlock with more of the vote than anything else, or in the event that such a measure gets nomination support (I'm not sure if such nominations are legal, though). If Drizzle is placed on watch (by simple majority) to the exclusion of everything else, then I suppose that a separate ladder is still a good option, but at that point it may be that the consequences no longer matter to a simple majority and that the existing process should just be left alone.

What I'm saying is, I appreciate the support that the idea has gotten, but this is not the time to be so tied up on the issue and the point has been clearly made. We do still have a current metagame to discuss, and a Pokémon on suspect watch.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

I've never seen people complaining about Starmie and to be honest the fact than Drizzle makes Pokemon such as Toxicroak and Gastrodon usable in OU is only healty for the metagame as it grants diversity. Thundurus is an isolated case and I don't really think that it would get less bitching with thunderbolt over thunder. If anything t-bolt is more reliable as it has 100% accuracy even with sandstorm and sun.

That's one-dimensional thinking. Drizzle limits options more than it promotes.

 

[haunter]

You have no evidence of that.

 

[Rosey Oak]

Also many of the SSers have have small intial speed and can be revenged by scarf users as scarf thundurus or whatever...

I’ve never seen a scarf’d Thundurus in my life, and anyway this would be easy set up bait for other Pokemon - especially in 5th gen. To get to the point, there has been a major decline in choice scarf users this generation A. Because giving our opponent one ‘free turn’ to set up can have dramatic consequences. B. There is no real benefit to running choice scarf this generation - it won’t be out speeding and revenge killing one of the most deadly threats in OU – i.e Excadrill, and also why run choice scarf which locks you onto one move, when you can use Deoxys-S or Excadrill who can freely switch between their moves. On the whole, I cannot call Choice Scarf revenge killers a reliable check this generation.

The fact that now scarf users are non-existent doesn't say anything...If the metagame need their help then it will have it...

If you think that the swift swimmer version of Excadrill will promote the use of choice scarf I think you are sadly mistaken. If anything Excadrill and co. would hinder the use of choice scarf. Why should I use choice scarf and be locked into a potentially fatal move when I can use Swift Swimmers/Excadrill/Deoxys-S. Although I admit high speed Choice Scarfer’s are generally faster than the slower swift swimmers, I do not anticipate their rise in usage any time soon.

Also there are a lot of checks to all the threats you mentinoed that are not walls by any means.F.e starmie can check golduck,bulk up poliwrath,crunch-less floatzel etc.

All of the above will outrun Starmie in Rain and therefore Starmie will have to take two hits i.e the switch in damage and the additional damage form the next turn. Golduck gets a definite OHKO on Starmie with Hydro Pump, Floatzel gets a definite 2KO with Waterfall, as does Poliwrath. Therefore if you want a safe switch in you must use another Pokemon as a sacrifice. Is Starmie a reliable check then?

Also i did a mistake before...Ninetales doesn't even need a scarf to outspeed the SSers as the only one that normally outspeeds her is floatzel who won't be running max speed anyway...So a specs ninetales is a very decent check ohkoing floatzel with energy ball,armaldo with overheat and putting to sleep things that it can't hurt...

Well yea Drought Ninatales will check swift swimmers solely because of its ability, (it eliminates Drizzle which therefore deactivates the Swift Swimmer ability and Ninetales is naturally the faster of the two), however very few Pokemon have the privilege of weather inducing abilities - they will therefore be slower than swift swimmers which in most case eliminates their ability to become a reliable check as they must survive two powerful hits instead of just one.

Any SSer that will be broken will get banned.So you don't have to worry...

The trouble is Drizzle already grants many Pokemon a power-overdose, whilst an individual swift swimmer could potentially be OU material, backed up with boosted team mates on a drizzle high would surely make even these weaker swift swimmers a threat.

Also you said it yourself, Swift Swim is not a collectively broken ability however Drizzle is what pushes it over the edge. Last time I checked, Swift Swim wasn’t broken under rain dance damp rock in OU.

As 'iSkittles' has roughly said, “Last time I checked, things got banned by their best capabilities instead of tailor made to fit.”

Drizzle shouldn’t be an exception.

So i think that the best solution would be to ban the whole package instead of removing elements that we don't like like we have always been doing..

 

[Pocket]

If that is to happen, the suspect ladder should have both Drizzle and Drought removed, because if not for three Pokemon (Tyranitar, Politoed, Hippowdon), Drought would easily be the most broken weather. The fact that it's countered by two extremely common Pokemon does not mean that it's not broken.

That's the fucking point. If a Drizzle-less metagame results in an instable metagame, with overpowered mons that were formerly checked in the Drizzle metagame, then it is unbalanced and undesirable. If that's the case, Drizzle remains. However, if losing Drizzle actually facilitates more diversity while maintaining balance, then it is desirable, and we remove Drizzle.
A suspect ladder would put all theorymon to the test and we would actually KNOW which metagame is more desirable.

I would just like to say that the issue of having a separate ladder was already posted a while ago and I proposed a suspect ladder back then. I'd also like to clarify that I intended the suspect ladder proposal to be considered for implementation in the event in the future that there are no suspects under the current process but Drizzle is still at a near-deadlock with more of the vote than anything else, or in the event that such a measure gets nomination support (I'm not sure if such nominations are legal, though). If Drizzle is placed on watch (by simple majority) to the exclusion of everything else, then I suppose that a separate ladder is still a good option, but at that point it may be that the consequences no longer matter to a simple majority and that the existing process should just be left alone.

What I'm saying is, I appreciate the support that the idea has gotten, but this is not the time to be so tied up on the issue and the point has been clearly made. We do still have a current metagame to discuss, and a Pokémon on suspect watch.

I know that thread, and that thread was NOTHING what is being proposed here. Basically, that thread wanted an additional PERMANENT weatherless ladder that banned ALL weather. This only accomplishes to split up the user base, allowing two different metagames to progress side by side to appease both group. This does NOT solve the problem, but only avoids it. Rising Dusk was heavily against this because it was extra work for no merit or practical purpose. You proposed some formless thought of a suspect ladder, but of course people would only pay attention to the outrageous OP. This definitely warrants a separate thread with all the details of this specific Suspect Ladder idea.

Why cant this be implemented next round? Whatever Non-Pokemon or Pokemon Suspects that were deemed Uber would be implemented in both ladder (unless it is a Rain Abuser), and we simply observe which metagame would generate more overpowered mons(overall instability).

These are hypothetical scenarios:
If Drizzle earns a supermajority, it gets banned
If Drizzle earns 39-66% for ban, the vote results were divisive and we implement the Drizzle-less Suspect ladder
If Drizzle earns < 39% for ban, then we simply keep Drizzle for another round

 

[alexwolf]

I’ve never seen a scarf’d Thundurus in my life, and anyway this would be easy set up bait for other Pokemon - especially in 5th gen. To get to the point, there has been a major decline in choice scarf users this generation A. Because giving our opponent one ‘free turn’ to set up can have dramatic consequences. B. There is no real benefit to running choice scarf this generation - it won’t be out speeding and revenge killing one of the most deadly threats in OU – i.e Excadrill, and also why run choice scarf which locks you onto one move, when you can use Deoxys-S or Excadrill who can freely switch between their moves. On the whole, I cannot call Choice Scarf revenge killers a reliable check this generation.

Everything you say there is true but i just wanted to show to you that many of the SSers that you mentioned are slow enouh to be potentially revenged killed by fast scarf users...
Of 'course scarf users are not the best solutions for revenge killing in general,but it is better for a poke to have some checks in the form of scarf users than not to have these checks at all.Kingdra and kabutops couldn't be revenged kill by any means by a scarfer(except deoxys) but with Poliwrath,Armaldo etc we have this possibility.It's not the best solution but it is still nice to have this option should the need arise...

If you think that the swift swimmer version of Excadrill will promote the use of choice scarf I think you are sadly mistaken. If anything Excadrill and co. would hinder the use of choice scarf. Why should I use choice scarf and be locked into a potentially fatal move when I can use Swift Swimmers/Excadrill/Deoxys-S. Although I admit high speed Choice Scarfer’s are generally faster than the slower swift swimmers, I do not anticipate their rise in usage any time soon.

You would use a fast scarfer for 2 reasons:1.'Cause you don't want to make a weather team 'cause the pokes that you want to use don't fit well there or just because you don't like it and 2.if you want to take the weather route then you must use 2 pokes,the inducer and the abuser instead of 1,the scarf user.
Also some scarf users are faster than deoxys-s and therefore can outspeed threats like poliwrath that deoxys cannot.And finally as you said for the slower SSers you can always use deoxys-s if you don't want to be locked in a move....

All of the above will outrun Starmie in Rain and therefore Starmie will have to take two hits i.e the switch in damage and the additional damage form the next turn. Golduck gets a definite OHKO on Starmie with Hydro Pump, Floatzel gets a definite 2KO with Waterfall, as does Poliwrath. Therefore if you want a safe switch in you must use another Pokemon as a sacrifice. Is Starmie a reliable check then?

You totally missed my point...Of course starmie cannot switch in to everyhting those guys have!That is why i said check!You are thinking about counters...
So starmie can switch into the turn they boost or use an unstabbed move and then in the next turn take the boosted water move and then kill!

Well yea Drought Ninatales will check swift swimmers solely because of its ability, (it eliminates Drizzle which therefore deactivates the Swift Swimmer ability and Ninetales is naturally the faster of the two), however very few Pokemon have the privilege of weather inducing abilities - they will therefore be slower than swift swimmers which in most case eliminates their ability to become a reliable check as they must survive two powerful hits instead of just one.

I know but this doesn't mean anything.Specs Ninetales is still there along with prankster users,fast scarf users,priority users(for weakened SSers or for armaldo),Scarf tyranitar etc.
And all these are just checks!If you want counters(walls) there are plenty out there for most of the SSers you mentioned.You just have to be a little bit creative and find some solutions...The metagame we play changes so fast that we must watch the news every 4 days if we want to be up to date...So finding new solutions for the new threats is only logical and happens all the time,SSers are not excluded!

The trouble is Drizzle already grants many Pokemon a power-overdose, whilst an individual swift swimmer could potentially be OU material, backed up with boosted team mates on a drizzle high would surely make even these weaker swift swimmers a threat.

This is true but don't forget something...It is up to you whether you want to use ou pokes that abuse the rain well or you want to use uu and even ru pokes that abuse rain perfectly but are uu and ru without it...Don't forget that all these pokes you mentioned are bad as shit outside of drizzle and you won't always win the weather wars...So being stack with such bad pokes outside of drizzle is not such a good idea many times...It is a high risk-high reward sityuation.Of 'course kingdra was broken 'cause it was already a good ou poke even without drizzle which means that even without it it could function good.But that is not the case for the shitty quilfish,floatzel,armaldo etc who are all ru iirc now that aldaron's proposal is active...

Also you said it yourself, Swift Swim is not a collectively broken ability however Drizzle is what pushes it over the edge. Last time I checked, Swift Swim wasn’t broken under rain dance damp rock in OU.

As 'iSkittles' has roughly said, “Last time I checked, things got banned by their best capabilities instead of tailor made to fit.”

Drizzle shouldn’t be an exception.

Yes but Drizzle is also not broken on itself as an ability.Drizzle only becomes broken when it is combined with the powerful rain abusers that have the right stats,abilites etc to result to a broken poke!And the broken poke is the package not drizzle...The poke is the machine that takes all the factors and turns them into a painful result:An overpowered threat!So the broken pokes are what we should ban not Drizzle...

 

[jas61292]

I’ve never seen a scarf’d Thundurus in my life, and anyway this would be easy set up bait for other Pokemon - especially in 5th gen. To get to the point, there has been a major decline in choice scarf users this generation A. Because giving our opponent one ‘free turn’ to set up can have dramatic consequences. B. There is no real benefit to running choice scarf this generation - it won’t be out speeding and revenge killing one of the most deadly threats in OU – i.e Excadrill, and also why run choice scarf which locks you onto one move, when you can use Deoxys-S or Excadrill who can freely switch between their moves. On the whole, I cannot call Choice Scarf revenge killers a reliable check this generation.

Scraf users have a niche in the metagame. They may not be as useful as 4th gen, but that doe not make them non-existant. If a scarf Pokemon can fill a role or check a Pokemon, then it is just as important as any other version of that Pokemon. Just because something is not used does not mean it is bad. If you can't beat a Pokemon because you do not want to use the scarfed counter, then you can only blame yourself.

If you think that the swift swimmer version of Excadrill will promote the use of choice scarf I think you are sadly mistaken. If anything Excadrill and co. would hinder the use of choice scarf. Why should I use choice scarf and be locked into a potentially fatal move when I can use Swift Swimmers/Excadrill/Deoxys-S. Although I admit high speed Choice Scarfer’s are generally faster than the slower swift swimmers, I do not anticipate their rise in usage any time soon.

I agree however that SwSw will not help bring back scarfs. In fact it will probably make them even rarer. But what is the problem with that. All the SwSw and Sand Rush users have done is increase the overall power level of the meta. That is change, not unbalance.

Well yea Drought Ninatales will check swift swimmers solely because of its ability

Excadrill is useful only because of its ability. Wobbuffet is useful only because of its ability. Blaziken was useful only because of it's ability. What is your point. The ability is part of a Pokemon. If a Pokemon does something because of its ability then that is what it does. So, yeah, Nintales checks only because of its ability. What's your point? A check is a check.

The trouble is Drizzle already grants many Pokemon a power-overdose, whilst an individual swift swimmer could potentially be OU material, backed up with boosted team mates on a drizzle high would surely make even these weaker swift swimmers a threat.

Once again, what is your point. We don't ban things because they make things threatening. we ban broken things. Kingdra being broken is bad, so we should ban Kingdra. But Seaking (or more realistically, Floatzel) being a threat is not bad. It is different. Get used to it.

Also you said it yourself, Swift Swim is not a collectively broken ability however Drizzle is what pushes it over the edge. Last time I checked, Swift Swim wasn’t broken under rain dance damp rock in OU.

As 'iSkittles' has roughly said, “Last time I checked, things got banned by their best capabilities instead of tailor made to fit.”

Drizzle shouldn’t be an exception.

Look down at my sig. See that quote there of one DetroitLolcat? Yeah, Drizzle may break things, but Drizzle isn't broken in the metagame.

It IS the metagame. We ban things that are broken in the matagame, and if that means banning things that are only broken in infinite-rain, so be it. We do not change the metagame to make things less broken.

 

[alexwolf]

We did the Aldaron Proposal because we didn't have enough knowledge of drizzle to ban it. It was obvious that Drizzle was the main factor in all of these broken pokemon but nobody wanted to because of how young the metagame was at the time. You also seem to have misunderstood me and thought I always thought of the Aldaron Proposal as a Hypocrisy. At the time it was proposed I wanted that to happen because I knew as well as everyone else that this was the way to go. Now however, I see there's no need to keep it for it's intended reason. We all know that Drizzle is broken yet we keep it because of this supposed balance the metagame has right now. (Which I personally think is a huge load by the anti banners part imo) So we continue to keep the Aldaron Proposal in place to nerf Drizzle and keep it in the metagame. On a base level, it's pretty much the same thing as if we decided to ban Speed Boost + Blaziken just to keep Blaziken. The importance is different but the practices and reasons are the same. Therefore Hypocrisy.

Stop stating your opinion as a general fact!Stop doing it 'cause it so annoying and insulting for all the others...
Drizzle alone as an ability is NOT broken!
Drizzle when combined with the right stats,abilites,moves etc creates the broken pokes!!!When all the broken pokes are banned then drizzle will not be overpowering anything!!!How is drizzle broken when it doesn't break any single poke that benefits from it????Pls tell me????
It's only the pokes fault that it became broken when all the right factors combined(drizzle included).Drizzle is not broken it is just a factor that breaks SOME pokemons...Also a factor that breaks many pokes is their moves or their stats!So what does this mean???That we should begin to cut their stats or their movepools to stop the pokes from being broken???Of 'course no!!!

 

[alphatron]

I've stated before that I believed weather to only "limit options" just as much as stealth rock does. Actually, I believe stealth rock to be a worse offender here, since there are more pokemon that you can't get away with using thanks to stealth rock being in play. Why would I use a defensive rotom-H variant? Despite it being a great thundurus, scizor, and heatran counter, why would I bother using a wall who loses 25% of his health on the switch? Why use Salamence over the other dragons we have in OU? So it can lose at least 35% of it's health after stealth rock and life orb? And then get destroyed by a CB Scizor bullet punch?

As Huanter said, no one has provided any proof on how weather "limits options" and prevents you from using certain strategies and pokemon. Much like with stealth rock, weather is simply something that should be taken into consideration when team building. I mean, I saw people running sunny day ferrothorn of all things just to counter rain in Round 2 (although I will admit that this is a horrible example). All of the pokemon who are already viable and cannot abuse weather, are still fully viable. Just because a formerly useful pokemon doesn't see any play doesn't mean that weather has a thing to do with it. I'll use Snorlax and Zapdos as examples. Can Zapdos abuse weather? Yes. He can abuse rain in 100% accurate thunder and he can abuse sun in a boosted Heat Wave. Is Zapdos a top threat? No (do not compare him to thundurus. Zapdos is bulkier, has the exact same special attack stat and has a reliable recovery). Can Snorlax abuse weather? Not really. But how exactly is weather keeping him from being viable? It isn't. The fighting types running rampant and the fact that he just doesn't have much to offer in fifth gen are what slow him down.

On Monday, I'm going to do a detailed analysis on all of drought's abusers to put an end to this, "Drought will be broken without drizzle around!" nonsense. Drought players actually have a good matchup against drizzle teams mainly due to the fact that once you're in control of the weather, the drizzle player has a team full of nerfed hydro pump users and attacks with the accuracy of Zap Cannon.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Stop stating your opinion as a general fact!Stop doing it 'cause it so annoying and insulting for all the others...
Drizzle alone as an ability is NOT broken!

I could've sworn I said in my very next post a few posts down from the one your quoting that I shouldn't have said that.

Drizzle when combined with the right stats,abilites,moves etc creates the broken pokes!!!

The same thing can be said for everything that's been simple banned. Garchomp itself isn't broken. It's only broken when you combine it's moveset, ability, and stats.

When all the broken pokes are banned then drizzle will not be overpowering anything!!!

That would be a really poor joke. How many things need to be banned before you realize that drizzle is the deciding factor in these bans. You continue to look at the pokemon that drizzle breaks instead of Drizzle itself. Drizzle doesn't deserve that kind of pampering. Nothing does.

How is drizzle broken when it doesn't break any single poke that benefits from it????Pls tell me????

I could've sworn part of the reason the Aldaron Proposal was implemented was because people didn't wanna ban Swift Swim users who were obviously broken under Drizzle. Manaphy was broken under drizzle. Drizzle will be a factor in Thundurus' ban. I really wonder how many pokemon you would like banned before you realize that something is seriously wrong.

It's only the pokes fault that it became broken when all the right factors combined(drizzle included).

Drizzle is the common factor in any pokemon banned in part because of Drizzle. It unhealthy for the metagame when people ban part of the problem instead of the whole.

Drizzle is not broken it is just a factor that breaks SOME pokemons...Also a factor that breaks many pokes is their moves or their stats!So what does this mean???That we should begin to cut their stats or their movepools to stop the pokes from being broken???Of 'course no!!!

Drizzle is broken because it breaks these pokemon. While it is true that Drizzle is only a factor in these pokemon bans, it is the common factor in all bans concerning it. To go down such a road as banning all the pokemon broken under drizzle is a very poor road. It's truly nothing more than playing favorites. You don't want to ban your precious drizzle so lets ban everything broken under drizzle no matter how many there are.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Drizzle is broken because it breaks these pokemon. While it is true that Drizzle is only a factor in these pokemon bans, it is the common factor in all bans concerning it. To go down such a road as banning all the pokemon broken under drizzle is a very poor road. It's truly nothing more than playing favorites. You don't want to ban your precious drizzle so lets ban everything broken under drizzle no matter how many there are.

What. "It's the common factor in all bans concerning it" well no shit sherlock, if it concerns something, then obviously this something is a factor...


Besides, what's your opinion on banning Outrage and/or Draco Meteor in DPPt????

 

[KurashiDragon]

What. "It's the common factor in all bans concerning it" well no shit sherlock, if it concerns something, then obviously this something is a factor...


Besides, what's your opinion on banning Outrage and/or Draco Meteor in DPPt????

I probably should've made myself more clear of that.


That depends on how controversial it is. My opinion on outrage and Draco Meteor is that they aren't broken but that was only because the moves themselves aren't inherently broken on everything that uses them. Draco Meteor and Outrage are broken on Salamence. Congrats, does that mean that they are broken on Dragonite, Kingdra, or Flygon? No they weren't so they weren't broken. Drizzle has already proven that it's broken with many users. If drizzle is broken on a few things then whatever but if Drizzle is the deciding factor on many bans then its obvious that people aren't paying attention to drizzle itself.

 

[jas61292]

Drizzle is broken because it breaks these pokemon. While it is true that Drizzle is only a factor in these pokemon bans, it is the common factor in all bans concerning it. To go down such a road as banning all the pokemon broken under drizzle is a very poor road. It's truly nothing more than playing favorites. You don't want to ban your precious drizzle so lets ban everything broken under drizzle no matter how many there are.

Lets just take this one paragraph and break it down.

Drizzle is broken because it breaks these pokemon.

So you are saying X makes Y broken, so X is broken. Or even more basically, X makes Y Z, so X is also Z. So many logic errors here I won't even go into it. All I will say is that Drizzle breaking Pokemon does not mean Drizzle is broken. It means that Pokemon are broken because the metagame has Drizzle. No more no less. Whether Drizzle caused it is irrelevant to whether Drizzle itself is broken.

While it is true that Drizzle is only a factor in these pokemon bans, it is the common factor in all bans concerning it.

Drizzle is a factor. So are good stats. And good moves. And Water STAB. Etc. Just because broken Pokemon all like Drizzle does not mean that Drizzle is broken.

To go down such a road as banning all the pokemon broken under drizzle is a very poor road.

Why? Cause you don't like it?

It's truly nothing more than playing favorites.

Actually it is the exact opposite. Playing favorites would be banning it because it makes your favorite Pokemon nonviable. Keeping it in and banning Pokemon broken in it follows the protocol of not banning something unless it is broken in the current metagame.

You don't want to ban your precious drizzle so lets ban everything broken under drizzle no matter how many there are.

Number is irrelevant. The point is we ban things that are broken in the environment Game Freak gives us. They gave use Drizzle. So we ban things that are broken in a metagame with Drizzle.

Deal with it.

 

[alphatron]

Well, we don't know for sure how many swift swimmers are broken without drizzle. We could ban only kingdra, and suddenly, drizzle+swift swim teams would be a lot more manageable.

Jas, I'm not sure I agree with your last statement. Let's say that drizzle broke every water type pokemon in the game. Would it be okay to ban them all while leaving drizzle in tact?

 

[jas61292]

Jas, I'm not sure I agree with your last statement. Let's say that drizzle broke every water type pokemon in the game. Would it be okay to ban them all while leaving drizzle in tact?

OK, I'll say this. If Drizzle really was broken, we should ban it. Because Drizzle is a non Pokemon element, however, being broken does not mean the same thing as it would for a Pokemon. Drizzle just as much defines the metagame as it is a part of it. So if Drizzle made the metagame ridiculous and unplayable due to it being an uncounterable strategy, as it would be if it broke all water types, then yes we should ban it. However, as that is not the case, we just have to accept that it is part of the metagame and make bans with that in mind,

 

[KurashiDragon]

Number is irrelevant. The point is we ban things that are broken in the environment Game Freak gives us. They gave use Drizzle. So we ban things that are broken in a metagame with Drizzle.

Deal with it.

I'm only responding to this because this is pretty much the point of my entire post and it's obvious that this is where our points differ.

You believe that Drizzle is the metagame that Game Freak gave us but I don't believe that. Game Freak doesn't give us the metagame. We make it ourselves using what Game Freak Gave us. Say someone else made a metagame and banned drizzle from that. Game Freak gave them a metagame the same as us but they dont have drizzle in it. Drizzle is just one more factor in the metagame. It can be banned just the same as anything else.

Drought was banned in UU yet it basically made the gen 4 uu metagame just the same as Drought.

Nothing can be unbannable because everything is apart of the metagame. Drizzle isn't the metagame so it can be banned just like Drought in UU.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I probably should've made myself more clear of that.


That depends on how controversial it is. My opinion on outrage and Draco Meteor is that they aren't broken but that was only because the moves themselves aren't inherently broken on everything that uses them. Draco Meteor and Outrage are broken on Salamence. Congrats, does that mean that they are broken on Dragonite, Kingdra, or Flygon? No they weren't so they weren't broken. Drizzle has already proven that it's broken with many users. If drizzle is broken on a few things then whatever but if Drizzle is the deciding factor on many bans then its obvious that people aren't paying attention to drizzle itself.

...The same thing applies to Drizzle. It may break Kingdra and god knows how many other pokémon, but so many others became viable, good, very good or whatever in a Drizzle metagame. As I've said, this is a matter of quality, not quantity. If Drizzle breaks 10 pokémon and make other 100 viable, what exactly is the problem here, the broken pokémon or the weather? And if Drought made 4 pokémon broken and other 30 viable, would you say it's less "broken" than Drizzle?