np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[SlimMan]

Don't care about this discussion, but want to point out an error.

Also, on the topic of Landlos:

Ferrothorn does a number on it with Gyro Ball

Swampert can tank it and KO with Ice Beam or Water Attack of Choice

+2 LO Sand Power Jolly EQ vs Max/Max Relaxed Ferrothorn: 90.3%-106.3%
+2 LO Sand Power Jolly EQ vs Max/Max Relaxed Swampert: 102.7%-121%

When are they going to have time to Gyro Ball/Ice Beam it? It OHKOes both (only needs 1 Spikes to guarantee Ferrothorn).

 

[Meru]

252 SpA Timid +2 LO Thunder on 252/220 SpD Jirachi: (90.10% - 106.44%)

That is a straight up OHKO 33% of the time, and 74% of the time with a layer of rocks (100% with spikes, mind you). We generally do calcs from full health, but in practice Jirachi won't likely be at full health. If it's lost 10% of its health...Jirachi loses.

+2 LO Sand Power Jolly EQ vs Max/Max Relaxed Ferrothorn: 90.3%-106.3%
+2 LO Sand Power Jolly EQ vs Max/Max Relaxed Swampert: 102.7%-121%

When are they going to have time to Gyro Ball/Ice Beam it? It OHKOes both (only needs 1 Spikes to guarantee Ferrothorn).

Guys, if we're going to do calcs involving hazards, you should probably account for Leftovers recovery for the turn where they switch in on the stat-up.

 

[IcyMan28]

Fair enough. Spikes + Lefties is still a 74% chance though, if I did my math correctly. So my point stands.

 

[Eggbert]

I heavily disagree with this. Since when is Scrafty tough to set up when running dual base 115 defenses? I run Shed Skin, so it has few issues setting up on Ferrothorn, Jellicent, defensive Rotom-W, Blissey, and others. Don't underestimate HJK and Crunch either. It can KO frailer sweepers (Rotom-W, for example), and on bulkier pokemon it has the bulk to set up another DD. Being able to get past Gliscor is great, too, and I personally DD a second time before OHKOing with Ice Punch. Uninvested Earthquake is unimpressive.

Scrafty does unboosted 41.5% - 49.4% to Ferrothorn with drain punch, 53% - 63% with Life orb. Ferrothorn can just leech seed, protect for health, and switch making it very difficult to sweep. Scrafty is also checked by drain punch + mach punch from Conk and para + iron head from Rachi since it has alot of trouble beating past them. It does set up on Jellicent but it takes alot of damage from status and LO and it can't heal itself yet because Jelli is a ghost. I would never use HJK on Scrafty because then you lose your recovery. Protect Gliscor, Jellicent, protect Ferrothorn, and protect Jirachi can easily switch around as well.

Jirachi is also a crummy counter to Thundurus. Rain thunder will OHKO most of the time, since Jirachi will almost never be at full health and spikes and SR are easy to setup with Ferrothorn against Rotom in the rain. The best way to beat thundurus is outspeed it, either with a scarfer, Starmie, or priority like ice shard. Lum thundurus beats blissey and jirachi as does taunt / sub thundurus.

 

[SlimMan]

Guys, if we're going to do calcs involving hazards, you should probably account for Leftovers recovery for the turn where they switch in on the stat-up.

As IcyMan said, fair enough.
It always OHKOes Swampert without hazards.
It always OHKOes Ferrothorn with 1 Spikes+SR (or 2 Spikes). It has a very high chance to OHKO Ferrothorn with 1 Spikes but no SR. It also has a somewhat good shot to OHKO Ferrothorn with no hazards at all. However, I'm not very good at math, so I couldn't tell you exactly how likely it is.

 

[Ada]

Iceman, how did you get 33%? :0

Using Smogon’s damage calculator, with a Zapdos vs. Jirachi (they both have the same SpA and type), I got a 40% chance to KO.

Here’s the calculation I made:

430 – 363 = 67

The actual damage dealt is 364 – 430; I suggest using actual damage instead of percentages because they introduce continuous numbers which makes it impossible to calculate (quite literally). The reason I subtracted 363 instead of 364 is because you get one less than the actual amount of numbers in the sequence if you do so.

430 – 403 = 27

Jirachi has a max HP stat of 404, that and anything above it is a KO. Again, we use 403 instead of 404 to get the amount of numbers in the sequence: 404, 405, 406, …430 (i.e. the amount of damage that KOes).

(27 / 67) * 100 = 40.3

That’s a 40% chance to KO.

If we were to use percentages, we would get:

106.4 – 90 = 16.4

106.4 – 99.9 = 6.5

(6.5 / 16.4) * 100 = 39.6 (approx. 40% chance to KO)

Or, more roughly:

106 – 89 = 17

106 – 99 = 7

(7 / 17) * 100 = 41.2 (approx. 41% chance to KO) - this gives us an overestimate!

Just something to keep in mind in future :)

Also, please don’t ban Thundurus ._.

 

[Demoness]

If anyone wants to really try and troll Bronzong, just run Hammer Arm on Landorus, weaken Bronzong by about 33%, and watch it die when it tries to counter Landorus. Sure, there's more partical ways of killing Bronzong, and Hammer Arm isn't exactly the best move to run on Landorus, but seeing Bronzong die horribly from something it's supposed to counter with ease is just hilarious XD.

 

[IcyMan28]

Scrafty does unboosted 41.5% - 49.4% to Ferrothorn with drain punch, 53% - 63% with Life orb. Ferrothorn can just leech seed, protect for health, and switch making it very difficult to sweep. Scrafty is also checked by drain punch + mach punch from Conk and para + iron head from Rachi since it has alot of trouble beating past them. It does set up on Jellicent but it takes alot of damage from status and LO and it can't heal itself yet because Jelli is a ghost. I would never use HJK on Scrafty because then you lose your recovery. Protect Gliscor, Jellicent, protect Ferrothorn, and protect Jirachi can easily switch around as well.

Jirachi is also a crummy counter to Thundurus. Rain thunder will OHKO most of the time, since Jirachi will almost never be at full health and spikes and SR are easy to setup with Ferrothorn against Rotom in the rain. The best way to beat thundurus is outspeed it, either with a scarfer, Starmie, or priority like ice shard. Lum thundurus beats blissey and jirachi as does taunt / sub thundurus.

Scrafty does not need recovery to sweep, for one (leftovers goes a long way as well). Ferrothorn is set up on by Scrafty. As in DD. If you want to waste your time Leech Seeding and Protecting while I get to at least +2 (then recover the health when I KO you or your switch-in should I be running Drain Punch), be my guest. Leech Seed won't activate as I OHKO everything following the setup anyway. Protect Gliscor is still set up fodder. I can comfortably DD whether you decide to Protect or attack, then KO you with Ice Punch. Jirachi can protect all it wants, I'll usually just set up a few DDs on it while it tries to TWave / Body Slam. Shed Skin does the rest, then I sweep it.

Of course Scrafty is checked. But saying it has trouble setting up on Ferrothorn (who, mind you, isn't keen on staying in on a fighting-typed attacker) and Jellicent is just wrong. I think you missed the part where I run Leftovers + Shed Skin, so Jelli is generally helpless.

Iceman, how did you get 33%? :0

I use Libelldra's calculator, which has been perfectly accurate in all cases that I've used it. 349 +2 LO 120 BP STAB attack vs. 404/320 Jirachi: (90.10% - 106.44%)

If you want the actual numbers, they are 364-430, so we did get the same result. 364/404 = 90.10, so the calculator is correct. A normal OHKO is 33% chance, but I mentioned Spikes + Leftovers.

In either case, a third of a chance to OHKO Jirachi from full health entirely discredits Jirachi as a check to Thundurus.

 

[alphatron]

To be fair, most pokemon can attempt to run...strange ways to muscle past things that are supposed to counter them. Like that Sunny Day Espeon my friend ran into when he tried to switch in his tyranitar (used sunny day on the switch, then ohko'd with LO hidden power fighting. Wasn't even running morning sun).

Or that hidden power fire forretress I saw on a sun team my opponent was using. It killed my Scizor. I don't know about Energy Ball Jellicient...but that was the stupidest shit ever.

On the rain team I have, I run an offensive lanturn with only 40 hp Evs and the rest in special defense. As grass knot does nothing to lanturn, I can make good use of it to force thundurus out.

Now, let's talk about Wish Blissey. Should the simulator allow the use of wish bliss/chansey with good Ivs? Does a wish blissey with good IVs even exist in real life considering the Japanese only event?

 

[Tobes]

Wish Bliss has been brought up before. It's legal in-game so we have no reason to disallow it.

 

[alphatron]

It's legal in game, but is it actually possible to obtain one with good IVs? Has it ever been possible?

 

[Mario With Lasers]

It's legal in game, but is it actually possible to obtain one with good IVs? Has it ever been possible?

As far as I know, the PID/IV algorithm for ADV events does make flawless spreads possible (...as any other in-game algorithm ever used, I guess), so it's possible someone got one. We've had reports of a few people here and there that did get awesome IVs, just not optimal natures (I've heard/seen Hardy, Gentle and Modest).


No, we'll never know the truth.



No, it doesn't matter.

 

[Bad Ass]

Alright, guys some metagame evaluation!

Thundurus is quite good. I've been running Hammer Arm / Thunderbolt / Hidden Power [Ice] / Thunder Wave. I don't use it as a sweeper, which is how most people use Thundurus. I use it to break open holes for my other sweepers to push through, as well as just clean like a monster late game. Hammer Arm is interesting, but VERY useful. The nicer accuracy than Focus Blast, the ability to, erm, hammer, Blissey for around 60%. It's not weak off of 266 Attack + Life Orb. It also hits Tyranitar just as hard, if not harder, and is just more reliable in general. The speed drop is no issue, since like I said, it's breaking walls, not sweeping. Thunderbolt + HP Ice hits most of the metagame for a 2HKO. Thunder Wave is the crux of the set, since it means that you almost cannot be swept by a setup sweeper (except Excadrill). I swear, sometimes I make a bad prediction and let, say, Volcarona get in a free BD. No problem, just send in Thunderbro and Thunder Wave, and then revenge kill. Thundurus + Jolly Air Balloon Excadrill also means that if both of those are alive, set up sweepers are limited to 1 KO.

Speaking of Excadrill, he's just as good as ever this round. I'm using Rapid Spin Excadrill, QuakeEdge, and X-Scissor. I use it like a Scarf Pokemon, not a sweeper. I can't tell you how useful spin is. I hate having to predict perfectly or carry a Magnezone when the other player has a Skarmory, but RS Drill solves that and is great support for Thundurus (hey that combo again), Volcarona, and really anything -- I hate switching around when SR is down on my side, and RS makes it so much easier. X-Scissor is great, it revenge kills Lati@s and Celebi (CELEBI!). Try using Drill as a Scarfer rather than a sweeper!

Lastly on my list of anti-metagame Pokemon is Celebi. Nasty Plot + 3 attacks is great, Giga Drain does a ton of healing on a lot of things, and HP Fire and Psychic hit everything except...Heatran and Lati@s, both of whom are conveniently beaten by Tyranitar. Or you can use NP + 2 attacks and Recover, with Giga Drain and your choice of coverage move (generally, EP + Psychic could work). It can take Close Combats, Earthquakes, and Scalds like a champ and heal it off with whatever move.

These are some cool things that I've noticed. Anyone care to share their thoughts on the mons that I showed or have any other anti-metagame / prevalent threats?

 

[Tobes]

DD Lum Salamence is surprisingly good, especially since a lot of people won't hesitate to go for the Body Slam parahax when Mence is up against Jirachi. Lum also prevents Thundurus from revenge T-Waving, Stallmew / Jellicent from Wisping, blocks Outrage confusion if Mence didn't need Lum to set up, etc.

Salamence @ Lum Berry
Intimidate
Jolly / Naive 0/252/0/4/0/252
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Dance

Fire Blast is nice for Skarm, who seems to never runs specially defensive anymore. Jolly can usually pull a 2HKO, but Naive clinches it. Rain is a bit unpleasant for Mence since it has a harder time against Skarm (it can still always +1 EQ Ferrothorn).

 

[IcyMan28]

Agreeing with the Salamence sentiment. Although I'm still doing that classic LO + DD setup, it is just beastly since no one is running those 100+ Speed scarfers anymore. I've paired it with LO RP/SD Terrakion and Magnezone for several reasons.

For one, both have issues with Skarmory, which Magnezone can deal with no problem. It also takes on Jirachi decently (there will be lots of parahax and flinchhax in the process, but Maggy usually comes out on top). Ferrothorn is easily disposed of. But the real clincher is Scizor. If I set up a sweep with either or Terrakion or Mence, Scizor will often be looking to Bullet Punch to cut it short. Magnezone can easily take advantage of this and the other is left with a relatively unhindered sweep.

SD Terrakion breaks down the walls that threaten can sponge a +1 Outrage from Salamence as well, such as Hippowdon. Really Terrakion in general is just great, it should see more use.

 

[Eggbert]

Scrafty does not need recovery to sweep, for one (leftovers goes a long way as well). Ferrothorn is set up on by Scrafty. As in DD. If you want to waste your time Leech Seeding and Protecting while I get to at least +2 (then recover the health when I KO you or your switch-in should I be running Drain Punch), be my guest. Leech Seed won't activate as I OHKO everything following the setup anyway. Protect Gliscor is still set up fodder. I can comfortably DD whether you decide to Protect or attack, then KO you with Ice Punch. Jirachi can protect all it wants, I'll usually just set up a few DDs on it while it tries to TWave / Body Slam. Shed Skin does the rest, then I sweep it.

Of course Scrafty is checked. But saying it has trouble setting up on Ferrothorn (who, mind you, isn't keen on staying in on a fighting-typed attacker) and Jellicent is just wrong. I think you missed the part where I run Leftovers + Shed Skin, so Jelli is generally helpless.

Once ferro gets the leech seed all he has to do is protect, go to Jelli, switch back. In a few turns you'll be dead and you will have no chance to land a SE DP. I used LO + shed and lum + moxie. Scrafty needs the extra power because of its average 90 atk. It sets up on jelli but not ferrothorn. That was my point.

As for antimetagame threats, Mew is the way to go. The generic sand teams loses to it and relies on crits to beat it. Infernape isn't half bad either with mach punch and grass knot, just make sure you have something to switch into Lati@s when using it. Team preview helps alot. Celebi as mentioned is good too and it can beat Reuniclus and Mew. Also had some success with Cloyster. Less so now that chomp is gone, but Cloyster can rip through teams once you weaken Rotom a bit. White herp is good so scizor can't beat you up. I also agree that Terrakion is a beast. Air balloon is the best as it makes setup easy and can let you beat a slightly weakened Gliscor.

 

[IcyMan28]

So...prediction is used to take down Scrafty? The switch to Jelli is so obvious that I'll usually Crunch regardless.

Definitely agreeing on Mew, though. Sand can't really do that much to it (not many physical attackers can, actually) and it has the bulk to take various special attacks.

EDIT: Calm Mind Celebi deserves a mention alongside NP Celebi. The boost may not be as fast, but that extra buffer against Starmie's Ice Beam or Thundurus' HP Ice can help against a Drizzle Team.

 

[Eggbert]

I'm just saying it doesn't setup and sweep on Ferro scot free because of leech seed and protect switching, I've been stalled out alot when I tried that.

 

[alphatron]

Erm, discussion of the actual metagame, huh...

Bulky Volcorona is an amazing pokemon. Chesto Rest is just a great sun for the pokemon and it works even better under sun support. With popular setup fodder like ferrothorn, scizor, reuniclus, and blissey all over the place, the setup oppurtunities are enormous. Flame body is also nice on the physical side, and even though your only two moves are bug buzz and fire blasts, the sun support and multiple boosts allow you to muscle past things that would normally pose a threat.

Surprisngly, an amazing partner for Volcorona is actually Dugtio. I use a LO Jolly dugtrio myself to trap things that would normally make things tough for Volcorona. Getting rid of Terrakion (the few I see) is a nice plus if it means I can open up a clean sweep. Dugtrio also has memento to make life easier for setup pokemon. It doesn't matter if the weakened pokemon switches afterwards-you still get a free turn of setup.

Another great pokemon is Nasty Plot Infernape. Sun boosted +2 LO Fire blast does around 88% to standard Jellicient (with 192 EVs) so grass knot is hardly needed. The boosted vacuum wave is also great for getting rtid of Excadrill. Close Combat is needed on the nasty plot set though...and although grass knot handles gastrodon and unaware quagsire (as well as healthy swampert), I appreciate not being killed by tyranitar or walled by Blissey (2HKO'd by Fire blast) once I set up.

Since the lati twins WILL outspeed and ruin this strategy, you'll probably want to get rid of them. Escavelier and Scizor do a good job at this. The two also manage to get rid of Gengar as well. Actually, any pursuiter does a good job disposing of the things that would get in Infernape's way. Offensive gyarados loses to Fire blast after SR damage, but a hp electric is probably more reliable.

Hippodown needs more use in this metagame.

 

[Eggbert]

I find volca to be hit or miss really. It either does really well against the team or is walled outright by half of it. If you are up against a team with Terrakion, Heatran, and Jellicent, you aren't really doing anything. SR is pretty easy to prevent though. Volca's biggest problem is coverage. Chesto rest is the best by far in terms of setting up but it is walled so easily that even with 3 boosts you are done. It really depends on the team you face. Volcarona can have a good payoff but it just isn't consistent against enough teams for me.

A really underrated threat now is Starmie. It outspeeds Lati@s and the Tbros and can really rip teams apart in the rain. Ferrothorn is obvious a problem, but once that's weakened just enough even stuff like Rotom is flat out 2HKOd. Just as difficult to switch to as ever. It's also one of the reasons I run scarf Rotom. Scarf Rotom is really useful too. Team preview lets you see the volt switch immunes, then you can just chip Ferro and switch to your fighting type / ferro killer. It can revenge T-rus and stuff and tricking is always useful for stuff like Sigilyph and Clus.

Oh and weather changing. I'm thinking of just throwing hail or something on my Rotom. Since I don't use a weather starter they always sac their's really early. good idea?

 

[Bad Ass]

Starmie does look cool. Something like TrickSpecs with Hydro Pump / Psyshock / Ice Beam / Trick does a ton...or LO with Recover / Rapid Spin > Trick. You don't even need rain, but I can see it working amazingly on a Rain team -- think, Specs Double STAB Hydro Pump off of 300 SAtk, 361 Speed, and a way to OHKO or almost OHKO Blissey....I think I'm gonna go test Starmie now. Oh yeah, and it outspeeds 90% of threats, such as Thundurus, Terrakion, and the like!

 

[Demoness]

Although this was probably because I used it during the start of B/W metagame, Gallade actually preformed really well when I used him. I used a simple Life Orb set with Close Combat/Zen Headbutt/Shadow Sneak/Ice Punch. Gallade hit shit hard, and people always leaving in their Thundurus/Latios in after taking a Close Combat just to get taaken down by Shadow Sneak was funny. Choice Band Terrakion is another underatted threat. It just hits so fucking hard, 2HKOing Skarmory easily, and being able to 2HKO Gliscor.

 

[alphatron]

Psyshock starmie doesn't ohko blissey. It doesn't even 2hko.

Running a random weather attack works better than you'd expect. Some people already do that, which is why I keep Ninetales healthy as a valuble team member.

No words on NPNape then?

 

[doomvendingmachine]

Starmie does look cool. Something like TrickSpecs with Hydro Pump / Psyshock / Ice Beam / Trick does a ton...or LO with Recover / Rapid Spin > Trick. You don't even need rain, but I can see it working amazingly on a Rain team -- think, Specs Double STAB Hydro Pump off of 300 SAtk, 361 Speed, and a way to OHKO or almost OHKO Blissey....I think I'm gonna go test Starmie now. Oh yeah, and it outspeeds 90% of threats, such as Thundurus, Terrakion, and the like!

Starmie's real issue is that without hp fire ferrothorn walks all over you. Having said that, it's probably still a good pokemon, as it's the third fastest pokemon in ou behind deo-s and whimsicott, and still has as great coverage as ever.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

It was always funny to send in Kingdra and set up Rain after they let their T-tars die to my Chandelure.(HP Fighting FTW)

Btw, Conkeldurr just sucks T_T
At the start of BW, I could sweep with it easily since no one really knew how to handle it.
Suddenly, I cannot sweep with Conkeldurr. Scrafty is just so much better IMO.
Hell, even freakin Bulk Up Tornadus is better.(Don't laugh, it was surprisingly effective)


Oh, and Eggbert....looking at your avatar makes me wanna play Metroid Fusion again :L
Too bad the cartridge is messed up and it doesn't save properly.