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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Your calcs are misleading and fail to provide meaning toward the real danger of Deoxys N. For example why would I fuck around with Fire Punch on Mamoswine when I can flat out OHKO with Psycho Boost.
However I have to thank you. Look at all your calcs and see how in most cases those pokemon are 2KOed. So to deal with Deoxys N you need to switch in first, take a hit, and then (unless you have priority) take a second hit and then revenge. In addition there is nothing stopping Deoxys N to run Substitute, scout your switch, hit it with the appropriate attack and then switch back out, your check mangled by some attack from its movepool while its at 65%, free to switch in later in the game (after a KO of course) and take something out.
Lastly you mention Psycho Boost. I believe you listed pokemon like Tar (Super Power), Steels , (usually dealt with Fire Punch or HP Fire) as counters. This is not true. While those pokemon might take a Psycho Boost well they all fear some other attack from its movepool, ergo, they are risky switch ins. FFS you list Deoxys as a "counter" to its Psycho Boost attack. Assuming you mean Deoxys S you can take up to 70% switching in on that resisted attack (assuming you run 252 HP). The simple fact of the matter is that bugger all can switch into Deoxys N. As explained earlier you need something to take two attacks from it thanks to its speed and you own calcs show its tough to even do that.
Deoxys N in OU?
NO
EDIT congrats on reaching 3,000 posts Haunter
However I have to thank you. Look at all your calcs and see how in most cases those pokemon are 2KOed. So to deal with Deoxys N you need to switch in first, take a hit, and then (unless you have priority) take a second hit and then revenge. In addition there is nothing stopping Deoxys N to run Substitute, scout your switch, hit it with the appropriate attack and then switch back out, your check mangled by some attack from its movepool while its at 65%, free to switch in later in the game (after a KO of course) and take something out.
Lastly you mention Psycho Boost. I believe you listed pokemon like Tar (Super Power), Steels , (usually dealt with Fire Punch or HP Fire) as counters. This is not true. While those pokemon might take a Psycho Boost well they all fear some other attack from its movepool, ergo, they are risky switch ins. FFS you list Deoxys as a "counter" to its Psycho Boost attack. Assuming you mean Deoxys S you can take up to 70% switching in on that resisted attack (assuming you run 252 HP). The simple fact of the matter is that bugger all can switch into Deoxys N. As explained earlier you need something to take two attacks from it thanks to its speed and you own calcs show its tough to even do that.
Deoxys N in OU?
NO
EDIT congrats on reaching 3,000 posts Haunter
The whole point of deoxys is to clean. You get up spikes and SR, you throw around attacks that your opponent will have a tough time sponging, and then you clean the last three mons up from 60%. It's tougher to do this with deo-s because of it's lame attacking stats, but with 150 spA it will be alot easier.
What people seem to forget when discussing about Deoxys-N is that it has 150 base speed.
This means that other than Excadrill in SS and Deoxys-S very few things will be able to revenge kill it without a priority move. While its defenses aren't great it can take an ice shard from Mamo or even an aqua jet from Azumarill.
I'd prefer to keep Deoxys-N where it is and concentrate on the current suspects.
This means that other than Excadrill in SS and Deoxys-S very few things will be able to revenge kill it without a priority move. While its defenses aren't great it can take an ice shard from Mamo or even an aqua jet from Azumarill.
I'd prefer to keep Deoxys-N where it is and concentrate on the current suspects.
Woah. I didn't even notice that. I'll remove him from the list.
You could. But then you risk your opponent abusing your -2 and setting up in your face with something.
In the same way that heatran fears superpower from Scizor. Scizor fears and hp fire from latios. Blissey is 2HKO'd by Specs Latios Psyshock. These factors still do not stop Scizor from being considered a viable latios counter, or heatran a viable counter to Scizor variants.
I do not have an arguement against this at the moment, so I'll have to concede this point.
Gratz on 3k Haunter.
I'm finding Gastrodon to be extremely effective as a catch-all rain counter. There are effectively only two pokemon it cannot wall, those being Toxicroak and Ferrothorn, and of the two it only outright loses to Toxicroak as Ferrothorn can be defeated with Scald burns, espescially if it lacks Leech Seed. In my experience zero rain sweepers have the ability to 2HKO it unboosted as Dragonite and Tornadus are doing around 40% to it at best while Gastrodon can either Stockpile to make it more pathetic, Toxic the pokemon to cripple it (very helpful vs Dragonite) or simply Recover off the damage. Very worthy of notice. Then of course it also hard counters Rotom-W and even Tricked a Scarf or Specs it still walls everything on the opposing team.
Toxicroak is a really big prick though.
I'm finding Gastrodon to be extremely effective as a catch-all rain counter. There are effectively only two pokemon it cannot wall, those being Toxicroak and Ferrothorn, and of the two it only outright loses to Toxicroak as Ferrothorn can be defeated with Scald burns, espescially if it lacks Leech Seed. In my experience zero rain sweepers have the ability to 2HKO it unboosted as Dragonite and Tornadus are doing around 40% to it at best while Gastrodon can either Stockpile to make it more pathetic, Toxic the pokemon to cripple it (very helpful vs Dragonite) or simply Recover off the damage. Very worthy of notice. Then of course it also hard counters Rotom-W and even Tricked a Scarf or Specs it still walls everything on the opposing team.
Toxicroak is a really big prick though.
Jirachi...
Rotom-W...
idk Virizion?
Yeah, ScarfToed is a boss but most Sand teams have at least 1 answer to it.
Rotom-W...
idk Virizion?
Yeah, ScarfToed is a boss but most Sand teams have at least 1 answer to it.
well gastrodon could use earth power to deal with Toxicroak, i don't think stockpile is really worth it against a good opponent as almost every rain team carrys a Grass type to deal with with Gastrodon, Jellicent and Rotom-W.
Neither Jirachi nor Scrotom are safe switchins as they're both 2HKOed by Rain-boosted Hydro Pump, and Virizion is beaten by Ice Beam.
There are plenty of choice pokemon that require prediction / switching to a resisting Pokemon, but that doesn't make them get banned.
Modest Scarftoed's Ice Beam vs 0/0 Virizion: 44.6% - 52.6%
And I don't know about you, but I use HP EVs on my Virizion. She can switch in, eat two Ice Beams and then roflstomp Politoed with Giga Drain. Yeah fine you could switch out to a counter/check/Grass resist and then Virizion would be at ~55% and completely fucked but I could just Focus Blast your Steel or HP Ice your Flying/Dragon/Grass switch-in and then you'd be fucked instead and lol run-on sentence but we're playing Pokémon and not King of the Hill so this doesn't matter and I like being overkill with Specstoed.
And I don't know about you, but I use HP EVs on my Virizion. She can switch in, eat two Ice Beams and then roflstomp Politoed with Giga Drain. Yeah fine you could switch out to a counter/check/Grass resist and then Virizion would be at ~55% and completely fucked but I could just Focus Blast your Steel or HP Ice your Flying/Dragon/Grass switch-in and then you'd be fucked instead and lol run-on sentence but we're playing Pokémon and not King of the Hill so this doesn't matter and I like being overkill with Specstoed.
ScarfToed could only 2HKO Rotom-W if it would run min HP EV investment something only Scarf Versions does and they outspeed. SDef Jirachi can't be 2HKOed unless you have both SR and a layer of Spikes, but if it carries Protect your chances get bad.
You also can't 2HKO Virzion without a layer of spikes and SR and thats assuming a 4/0 Sdef Spread.
Don't use specs, use life orb mixed is 10 times better, psycho boost have almost the same power and you gain the ability to kill most of its counters, not many things can setup in front of him even with the atk and/or spA drop
For example, if you have used superpower, Excadrill can setup, but it's faster anyway so yeah, and still superpower does a lot of damage at -1
Terrakion fears Psycho Boost, rock polish can be walled anyway so no problem, and even a -1 superpower and a -2 psycho boost are going to 2HKO so it can't sd in your face
Same goes for Landorus, even a -2 ice beam is going to wreck it, and unless it use rock polish -2 ice beam is going to 2HKO, so it can't use sd
Absolute no dragon can use dd in front of him because they're going to be 2HKOed by a -2 ice beam (not even +1 Salamence can outspeed it) unless your name is Kingdra, or you can just switch out and revenge them later <-<
The only mons who can set-up in Deoxys-s' face are Reuniclus and Latias, even with its stats dropped Deo can 2HKO most sweepers
Btw, Specs Gastrodon is pretty awesome, more people needs to try it, it can 2HKO the standard Ferrothorn with Earth Power, and God save your ass if it gains a Storm Drain boost because Surf have a chance to OHKO Rotom-W in rain and max/max spD Ferrothorn takes 46% - 54.2% from it . _.
Well, Toed can't handle Virizion, but Toxicock does.
Err, Toxicroak handles almost every single "rain counter" :L
So far, I've had success using mixed Salamence. It matches up well one-on-one with most of the commonly used Pokemon in OU, assuming you can get it in safely. Volt Switch and U-Turn help here, but it's still not that hard to switch in without partners carrying those moves thanks to Intimidate and reasonable defensive stats and typing. Here's the version of mixed Salamence I've been using:
Salamence (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 16 Atk / 240 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Draco Meteor
- Brick Break
- Fire Blast
- Roost
16 Attack EVs guarantee a 2HKO on all forms of Blissey, 252 Speed EVs and a Speed-boosting nature make sure it at least ties with all Pokemon up to 328 Speed, and the rest goes into Special Attack to pump up Draco Meteor and Fire Blast.
With proper prediction, Salamence can tear apart teams with ease and allow a sweeper to clean up much more easily. I encourage everyone to try using this Pokemon, whether a mixed set or a Dragon Dance sweeper.
Also, I've noticed people asking whether it is possible to be successful on the ladder without using a weather team. I believe that it is, since I consider myself successful (I'm ranked 10th on the Smogon server at the moment of this post, though, like all ladder ratings, that is certainly subject to change). However, I do think that being successful on the ladder without using weather is more difficult than doing so using weather, and that in most cases teams without weather are at a disadvantage against teams that use weather.
TL;DR version: Mixed Salamence (and Salamence in general) is good, and it's possible to do well on the ladder without using weather.
Salamence (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 16 Atk / 240 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Draco Meteor
- Brick Break
- Fire Blast
- Roost
16 Attack EVs guarantee a 2HKO on all forms of Blissey, 252 Speed EVs and a Speed-boosting nature make sure it at least ties with all Pokemon up to 328 Speed, and the rest goes into Special Attack to pump up Draco Meteor and Fire Blast.
With proper prediction, Salamence can tear apart teams with ease and allow a sweeper to clean up much more easily. I encourage everyone to try using this Pokemon, whether a mixed set or a Dragon Dance sweeper.
Also, I've noticed people asking whether it is possible to be successful on the ladder without using a weather team. I believe that it is, since I consider myself successful (I'm ranked 10th on the Smogon server at the moment of this post, though, like all ladder ratings, that is certainly subject to change). However, I do think that being successful on the ladder without using weather is more difficult than doing so using weather, and that in most cases teams without weather are at a disadvantage against teams that use weather.
TL;DR version: Mixed Salamence (and Salamence in general) is good, and it's possible to do well on the ladder without using weather.
I actually really like MixMence, but he does better with sun support over rain since Hydro Pump is ass. Ferro is probably MixMence's favorite partner though, since hazards are the key to making that set work.
Though I still wish Dragonite had access to Superpower with Multiscale, that'd throw it over the top as better than Salamence this generation.
Though I still wish Dragonite had access to Superpower with Multiscale, that'd throw it over the top as better than Salamence this generation.
On the topic of Mixmence, I feel that classic Mixmence is actually the way to go this gen. There isn't really much to outspeed at Base 100, except maybe Hydreigon or Haxorus. The ability to Roost is very useful too, since Mixmence should function more as a stall-breaker in my opinion.
Mix LO DD also seems like it would be worth looking into. Lure in Skarm and OHKO it with Fire Blast, or Gliscor with DM, etc. It could make a nice partner for Excadrill, although sand would definitely not be doing Mence any favors.
Mix LO DD also seems like it would be worth looking into. Lure in Skarm and OHKO it with Fire Blast, or Gliscor with DM, etc. It could make a nice partner for Excadrill, although sand would definitely not be doing Mence any favors.
Yeah mixmence + rapid spin excadrill is a good combo. A moveset of Draco / Fire Blast / Brick Break / Roost picks apart those common balance cores really well. Imo base 100 isnt that useful of a speed tier so I opt for max SpAtk and like you said, its niche is more of a stallbreaker anyway. Seems like everyone is more concerned with specsLatios in the current meta making it a perfect time to break out mence since a lot of teams have trouble with dragons that can draco AND fire blast, let alone hit from the physical side.
Mixmence is excellent. Mix hyreigon is actually really good too. Blissey doesn't beat it with the set I run and it pretty much has 0 counters and it is immune to spiking hazards and resistant to pursuit. Stuff like Jirachi that people turn to to defend against Lati@s won't work at all. It's actually one of the scariest threats to face and if I see a good player with hydreigon in team preview I know it's going to be a tough game.
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Trait: Rash
EVs: 32 Atk / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Ability: Levitate
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower (can't stand missing the scizor switch)
- Earthquake
- Taunt
Blissey takes the meteor. Taunt to stop healing, switch to something like Jirachi, wish, repeat. If an enemy Jirachi switches in on any attack, you can just KO with EQ. Same with Ttar and Heatran. If this thing was just a little faster it would be the best thing ever.
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Trait: Rash
EVs: 32 Atk / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Ability: Levitate
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower (can't stand missing the scizor switch)
- Earthquake
- Taunt
Blissey takes the meteor. Taunt to stop healing, switch to something like Jirachi, wish, repeat. If an enemy Jirachi switches in on any attack, you can just KO with EQ. Same with Ttar and Heatran. If this thing was just a little faster it would be the best thing ever.
I like being able to outspeed stuff like Haxorus, Hydreigon, and Darmanitan (and really, if you've invested enough speed to beat them, you may as well go all the way unless the remaining EVs have a specific purpose), but the Speed investment definitely depends on player preference and specific team needs. There are plenty of good benchmarks for Salamence to hit, depending on what you need it to outspeed.
I agree, Roost is almost mandatory when trying to break stall because of all the residual damage Salamence generally takes (Stealth Rock, Life Orb, and Sandstorm all do a number on it).
I believe that there was a Quality Control discussion over that idea a while back. From what I remember, the general QC consensus was that you're trying to do the job of two sets with one, and thus failing to do either job well. I haven't tested this personally, so I can't really weigh in on how true that is.
I've found that Salamence does well both with Drought support and against teams using Drought support, since its Fire Blast becomes obscenely powerful and it can afford to run Flamethrower if you're using it with Drought support. It can also use that boosted Fire Blast, Brick Break or Earthquake, and STAB Dragon-type attacks to hammer Drought-based teams as long as you keep it in decent health via Roost or Wish. It's got some way to beat most Pokemon commonly seen on Drought-based teams, although it obviously can't beat all of them with just one set. However, it's a good failsafe if you struggle with Drought-based teams and has plenty of utility outside of Drought conditions.
I'll try not to get too far into theorymon here, but I disagree with this. Sure, Dragonite has a more powerful Fighting-type move, but it's weaker on the Special side, especially since running Life Orb with Multiscale is somewhat counterproductive. I'm pretty sure that Life Orb Brick Break gets the 2HKOs you need anyway. I can't think of any other role where Dragonite would run Superpower, but if I've missed something feel free to correct me. I'm definitely open to discussion here.
On a somewhat different subject, I believe that someone was asking about a Rotom-W lure, and some other people were complaining about Rotom-W in general. I've found that Heatran with Hidden Power Grass makes an excellent Rotom-W lure since it can outspeed and 2HKO. Timid Heatran can 2HKO even 252 HP / 0 SDef versions without a Life Orb. If you forego Hidden Power Ice for this, make sure that you have another way to deal with Dragon-types, either by running Dragon Pulse on Heatran or by having a different Pokemon to handle Dragon-types.
I agree that Heatran makes an excellent Rotom-W lure, but I do need to point out that Rotom-W is actually faster than Heatran, and runs a Scarf fairly frequently. Still, HP Grass is an excellent way to deal with Rotom-W.
I feel that Heatran is very underrated atm. The Explosion nerf was a huge blow to it, unfortunately, but it's still very good.
I do have to question all of the Air Balloon Heatran I see. I'd much rather have Leftovers, especially since the majority of Gliscor are now outsped by max+ Heatran since they usually only invest ~72 in Speed, and Air Balloon mons are rarely a reliable way of beating Excadrill in the first place (except for Air Balloon Magnet Rise Magnezone), especially since the majority of them are immediately boned if Excadrill uses Brick Break.
Heatran's best set is specially defensive imo. Lava Plume / Toxic / Roar / Taunt or SR is a good set for it. It's certainly one of the most reliable answers to DDNite and Volcarona, although the latter can always run HP Ground. Another good, underrated Heatran set is Choice Specs. Overheat in the sun hurts like hell, and Modest Specs HP Grass almost always KOs 4 HP Rotom, and 252 HP still has a chance to die after Rocks, and it always dies if it has switched into Rocks before. The only problem is that to get the coverage you need (Dragon Pulse and Earth Power), you either have to give up a consistent STAB move or the raw power of Overheat. Fire Blast makes a good medium between the two, though.
What I was actually saying was that Dragonite has a much better weather-abusing movepool when compared to Salamence. On top of that Multiscale is probably one of the best abilities currently in the game. Though now that I think about it Salamence is more of a sun abuser while Dragonite is more of a rain abuser. Which is pretty cool when you think about it!
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