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np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Last gen we didnt have frosslass and mamoswine...well we did have frosslass for a lil bit, but then she got banned..and not many people really abuse snow cloak mamoswine but it is annoying when you have a mamoswine check who cant be 2HKOed, rather 3HKOed, only to have your attack miss..i wont speak on how good/bad hail is, just that if abomasnow were to be banned because of its ability then all users with auto-hail would have to be banned...lol and yes the caterpie statement is the exact thing im saying with abomasnow and snover..vulpix did get banned, but lets hypothetically say something like ninetales falls in usage in OU and comes down to UU, it is immediately banned to BL for having the ability drought
personally I dont think mew and victini are too much...victini is a powerhouse threat, but thats it..not really forcing ppl to run anything special..it has alot of checks and counters in UU that even if you do mispredict your not at a real loss yet.
For mew, each and every set is counterable...the only difference i would have to say about mew is that it has drain punch/aura sphere that some other sweepers dont have..but in terms of walling/stalling you have a lil bit faster Deoxys-D with less defense..the baton pass set is a merit of its own, it really is a challenge to break BP with a mew on a team, but that might change though
It's Deoxys-D with more Speed, less Defenses, and better HP. along with an (arguably) better Ability. I don't know too many people that have lost one or two Pokemon because they mispredicted a Deoxys-D moveset, which I can't say the same for Mew. I'm not sure if it deserves to be banned though, since every set Mew has does have a pretty damn good counter/check.
I think people should at least TRY Snover. The thing is, if Snow Warning is banned from UU, then Snover basically gets banned from RU, where really there haven't been many complaints about it. I'm not saying Snover isn't broken in UU, but people should at least try it first, just to make sure.
its not the question of whether snover is good or not, its about the ability snow warning...and no one does have a problem with snover in RU because all of the best hail abusers are UU
Then logically Abomasnow/the UU abusers are the culprits, not Snow Warning itself.
Very true..which is why i voted frosslass instead of hail itself lol but im just sayin to him that if hail has to go then both abomasnow and snover will have to as well
That's why I think people shouldn't ban Hail. We don't know if Snover is broken yet, since hardly anybody has even used it, so banning it through a Snow Warning ban seems ridiculous to me.
Well, we can't do much about it this round because Snow Warning is the only accepted nominee. I wish we could have had this discussion in the megathread so we could determine exactly what to nominate, but so it goes.
So I guess the question is, is Froslass broken enough that we're willing to get rid of hail entirely for it?
So I guess the question is, is Froslass broken enough that we're willing to get rid of hail entirely for it?
It shouldn't matter. If Froslass is broken in Hail, then Froslass, should get banned, not Hail. Secondly, if you want Abomasnow or Froslass banned, then vote Do Not Ban for Snow Warning. Personally, I don't think it's broken in the slightest, but if it's that much of a problem we should at least start with a Froslass or Abomasnow ban.
Also, it seems only logical to not ban Snow Warning. Only one thing in Hail is even remotely broken, so let's just vote No on Snow Warning and move on to things that actually might be broken.
Also, it seems only logical to not ban Snow Warning. Only one thing in Hail is even remotely broken, so let's just vote No on Snow Warning and move on to things that actually might be broken.
I think your misunderstanding when we say "abusers"...the abusers are Frosslass, Mamoswine, Wallrein, and 100% accuracy bliizards..Abomasnow/snover are only there to support these abusers not be abusers themselves(although abomasnow isnt a complete waste of team slot)...you keep talking about how snover will make hail teams different because abomasnow isnt there anymore, no they will still be the exact same..Vulpix is a great example, people do not say "vulpix was banned" they say "drought was banned"..
read all the nominations and you'll see everyone say either snow warning, hail, or if they are saying abomasnow they are only pointing the finger at its ability, snow warning. Only wilson46 states Abomanow's uses outside of his ability, but he's only using that as a comparison to the hippo..look and you'll see snow warning before you see Abomasnow
I think you're misunderstanding the conversation.
Basically:
- Snow Warning has just been nominated.
- Snover has the ability Snow Warning.
- If Snow Warning gets banned, Snover basically gets banned.
- Yet basically nobody has used Snover in this metagame, and it's fine in RU, so I think something different should've been nominated (e.g. Abomasnow or Froslass).
An ability should only be banned if its broken on all the Pokemon that have it. We simply do not know if this is the case.
Yes we do know..because the ability snow warning is a completely different case than most other abilities..For example, people are banning espeon instead of Xatu, yet they have the same abilities, espeon has higher special attack and speed, not SR weak, and can use BP...thats pokemon with difference in abilities that will make a difference if espeon was gone..its not easy to just say now that espeon is gone, Ill just start using Xatu with the same results..but if Abomasnow gets banned, then people will just start using snover, which will make no difference in a hail team...
Abomasnow
nidoqueen
walrein
frosslass
slowking
hitmontop
What difference would that team make if abomasnow was replaced snover? Nothing, its still the same standard hail team..If people wanna vote hail/snow warning they are voting for all users of snow warning..If ninetales and vulpix were both UU and we banned drought, do you think we would ban ninetales and not vulpix because vulpix isnt used?
Strange, Hail is basically the same as last generation, although Abomasnow was Banned to BL, I don't see any reason to banned Snow Warning or Snover as People still played around hail in Gen 4 UU.
Obviously Gen 4 UU and Gen 5 UU are entirely different metgames but saying that Hail is more broken in Gen 5 UU but not broken in Gen 4 UU sounds a little strange because Hail hasn't changed in the transition from Gen 4 to Gen 5.
Obviously the details were different, Frolass was banned to BL in Gen 4, Mamooswine wasn't in Gen 4 UU. Were there any other abusers of Hail in Gen 4 UU that weren't in Gen 5 UU that I've forgotten?
Well I wasn't around when the UU metagame matured last generation and how things ended up being banned but I still don't understand why Hail is broken, I can understand the abusers of Hail being broken, if that' the case then it's much more appropriate to ban the abusers and not the weather.
I will be quite disappointing if hail gets banned from UU, next will be Hippotas sand stream because no one can hit Gligar and Rhydon and Rhyperior is too hard to take down with their increase SpD and Pokemon with Sand Force Sweep too easily. Ah well... I guess I'll just have to wait and see the results.
Obviously Gen 4 UU and Gen 5 UU are entirely different metgames but saying that Hail is more broken in Gen 5 UU but not broken in Gen 4 UU sounds a little strange because Hail hasn't changed in the transition from Gen 4 to Gen 5.
Obviously the details were different, Frolass was banned to BL in Gen 4, Mamooswine wasn't in Gen 4 UU. Were there any other abusers of Hail in Gen 4 UU that weren't in Gen 5 UU that I've forgotten?
Well I wasn't around when the UU metagame matured last generation and how things ended up being banned but I still don't understand why Hail is broken, I can understand the abusers of Hail being broken, if that' the case then it's much more appropriate to ban the abusers and not the weather.
I will be quite disappointing if hail gets banned from UU, next will be Hippotas sand stream because no one can hit Gligar and Rhydon and Rhyperior is too hard to take down with their increase SpD and Pokemon with Sand Force Sweep too easily. Ah well... I guess I'll just have to wait and see the results.
It's astounding to me how this heap of ignorance received voting reqs this round. In the subject matter of Abomasnow or hail, it's obvious the choice should be Abomasnow. It's the same with gen4 UU hail era. You cannot sy something is the same as something else if you yourself have never tried it before. Before you go around preaching how Snover and Abomasnow are exactly the same, Go and see for yourself and bring back the intelligence you've learned.
If you decide you'll use Snover over Abomasnow you'll fidn that Snover loses the powerful Blizzards Abomasnw brings, the versaility in Abomasnow's moveset, the freedom of will Abomasnow has to switch in, if need be. You will also see that you ar elosing massive bulk that Abomasnow has, it won't be able to wall Raikou without HPFire or Aura Sphere.You will also learn that, if Snover is used over Abomasnow, your team has lost some of the synergy it had while Abomasnow was used.
Nothing between fourth generation and fifth generation UU has changed of Hail Stall teams, other than the choice of Mamoswine being used is brought. But, with your team not having Mamoswine, I will ignore that. MOST people are nominating Hail, as a whole, because of how easily it is for Froslass to lay down spikes and force switches in it. If this is the case, please ban Froslass so I won't have to see this annoying thing as BWUU progresses...
Ive been wanting to test it out for these past few days but since the server is down...
to the raikou counter...why not just use mamoswine since it doesnt have HP fire/aura sphere...and dont say HP grass..because if a raikou is just running thunderbolt/hpgrass/sub+ CM in its arsenel then that's a really bad Raikou that would be walled by any grass type...and after much experience I have yet to see a raikou run that combination.
And lost of synergy like what? Abomasnow is an annoying pokemon on its own, and it is actually usable unlike snover, I agree that Snover is step down from abomasnow, but I dont see anyone complaining about the synergy paired with abomasnow, nor the plus side of abomasnow..your the first person thats actually said something ..also right now no one is using snover because abomasnow is better (lol duh to myself) but if snover stays, im sure people will easily find a way to adjust using snover on their team and still have great success
lol i agree I dont see much of a difference between Gen IV and V now...other than mamoswine and frosslass being back, but so far people dont like it.. I just dont like frosslass's luck
Im taking all of this from watching people's battle with hail, battling against hail, and from the nominations about what people said...Abomasnow so far hasnt proved to me that it does alot more than just its ability...I personally dont think hail is broken, I believe its the abusers, but if were gonna ban hail then we're going to have ban all users of snow warning, abomasnow/snover, heh kinda already too late now because everyone has voted snow warning instead of just abomasnow itself
I, honestly, don't think running a hail team after the banning of Abomasnow is worth it. It's going to be DPUU repeated all over again. If Aboma is deemed too good for UU, SNover, along with the hail abusers that can't perform well outside of hail, will fall to the depths of NU, RU in this case, only to be seen by those desperate for weather. Just like Hippopotas in UU, as you see, it's in RU.
EDIT: I also realized that in the OU metagame, Garchomp has been broken since its release in DPPt. Yet, instead of banning Sand Stream, the weather that breaks him, we ban Garchomp. This reminds me of Froslass. Why not apply that same logic to the depths of UU, where instead of banning the weather, we break the broken pokemon in that weather, Froslass?
EDIT: I also realized that in the OU metagame, Garchomp has been broken since its release in DPPt. Yet, instead of banning Sand Stream, the weather that breaks him, we ban Garchomp. This reminds me of Froslass. Why not apply that same logic to the depths of UU, where instead of banning the weather, we break the broken pokemon in that weather, Froslass?
Sorry, but you are still not understanding what we're on about.
The bit I put in bold, is where I think you're getting confused. We wouldn't, and shouldn't ban Drought in that case. If Ninetales and Vulpix were both UU, we would ban Ninetales first. Then we'd test a metagame without Ninetales. If there's still a problem, we'd discuss banning maybe Victini or Vulpix, for example (of course, we were in that situation last round, and we went for Vulpix, which is fine).
My point is that I don't think it was right that Snow Warning was nominated.
I wish we'd had this discussion before the nominations tbh, but all those Hail nominations did come as a bit of a surprise to me, I certainly wasn't expecting that many.
But seriously, why not just nominate and ban Snow Cloak? I don't understand why Brightpowder is banned under the Evasion clause when it's a shitty item that boosts evasion by 10% whereas Snow Cloak/Sand Veil aren't when they are automatic abilities that increase evasion by 20%. Based on the PR thread it was determined that it would only be banned if people nominated it and voted on it, so why aren't we? Is there really any question that it introduces an uncompetitive amount of luck into the game...?
I really do think hail is what should go.
Like others have said, its the abusers this gen that make hail so damn annoying to deal with.
Froslass:Not broken outside of hail.
Mamoswine:Not broken outside of hail.
Walrein:Not broken outside of hail.
I'm sure Obama wouldn't even be considered broken if it didn't have Snow Warning.
Like others have said, its the abusers this gen that make hail so damn annoying to deal with.
Froslass:Not broken outside of hail.
Mamoswine:Not broken outside of hail.
Walrein:Not broken outside of hail.
I'm sure Obama wouldn't even be considered broken if it didn't have Snow Warning.
I think only Froslass should be banished to BL. it has that ridiculous Snow Veil hax! The only other pokemon with Snow Cloak that can be considered even remotely viable is Glaceon due to those strong Blizzards, but it's fighting prone and Chansey generally stops it.
Other than that we have Mamoswine, Stallrein, and Rotom-F/Glaceon.
Other than that we have Mamoswine, Stallrein, and Rotom-F/Glaceon.
Thats what we wanted to do, but its too late for that now :( lol to be honest I dont know where the whole hail fiasco came from..so far everyone says snow warning! snow warning! when they really keep pointing the finger at frosslass when they say it...similar to how people said Baton Pass was broken, but always brought up espeon as the main source of why
What is the difference between snover and abomasnow? Adam Lambert has at least provided me with facts about why snover is a step down...When you look at weather abilities though, they are completely different than your other average abilities..just by switching in they have already supported an entire team..and yes we would ban all users of drought, both ninetales and vulpix, because they are the culprits for providing support by simply just switching in for an entire team..it is fair for snover because if abomasnow will be banned, snover will just come right up and take his place..it sucks for RU, but tought titty
sigh lol i can agree with you on we shoulda had the conversation a little before the voting process..cause outta no where all the hail haters came up, I wanna know what other people's reason is for nominating snow warning and not just the abusers?
Well so far it is only Frosslass we're lookin at, and a little bit of mamoswine, but banning the ability would suck for other pokes like glaceon and beartic who isnt much of a bother to deal with...in OU they only did ban garchomp for the sand viel reason and others, but not sand viel itself
My concern is not that Snow Cloak breaks Pokemon (although it arguably does with froslass), but that it introduces an uncompetitive level of luck into the game. Much like how moody wasn't really "broken" in Ubers but still banned because it turned the game into a series of coin flips.
Granted, snow cloak/sand veil are not nearly as bad as moody, but the fact is that if we have banned Double Team and Brightpowder due to their uncompetitive nature, it makes no sense to avoid banning an ability that automatically grants double the boost with no setup or usage of an item slot.
I suppose you can consider this a new discussion point that is only related tangentially related to hail through froslass/mamoswine, but given that froslass was not nominated, we might as well discuss how we're going to deal with it next round. Personally, I'd prefer doing so through a snow cloak/sand veil ban, since that's something that should have happened on principle anyway.
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