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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Just run lum Thundurus. It can beat Blissey if focus blast hits twice, or you can even nasty plot again and deal 82.4% - 96.9% with a 4+ focus blast. Subs aren't that useful as they just kill you with residual damage and SR. Lum doesn't put you on a timer and you still get most of the same OHKOs after the plot boost. It's the best offensive thundurus set and has pretty much 2 counters, Gastrodon and Quagsire, that are slower than it (neither of which can actually OHKO and lose if they are below 80%). Careful Jirachi loses. Other than that you have to revenge kill it / priority. This is why everyone is having such problems with the thing, everything people are running is sitting either in the 240s range or at 346-350 and you need to be faster to beat it.
Azelf is the example of a excellent paper sweeper but fails to perform like it should in practice. Thundurus is definitely the most dangerous Nasty Plot attacker in the game right now and makes other sweepers look pale in comparison. The difference between Azelf and Thundurus is that the latter has the typing to set up on things and resists the most popular priority moves. Azelf has very little room to set up with its lack of resistances and lack of STAB to threaten Pokemon on the switch. Thundurus can threaten stuff like Slowbro and Jellicent due its STAB, while Azelf doesn't have much bite without its Nasty Plot boost due to Psychic being a terrible STAB move. Thundurus is the practically the perfect Nasty Plot sweeper to use in the metagame even though Azelf does have some unique traits, albeit not enough to merit usage over Thundurus. Although one can always run two on the same team to show some kind of offensive synergy because both can benefit each other greatly.
That's the problem you get with having both Excadrill and Thundurus in the same metagame. Both promote bulkier type of teams and offensive teams with blistering Speed see very little to no light. If one decides to boot out Excadrill, they better bring Thundurus along because these guys are promoting a bulky metagame. Besides, there's not much Pokemon that are viable that can outpace Thundurus bar Starmie.
Since we're on the topic of Nasty Plot sweepers, one should really try out Mew. It's practically a bulkier version of Azelf with Aura Sphere and higher Defenses to boot. It can accumulate more Nasty Plots than Azelf thanks to its standard set which draw in false counters. The only difference is that you'll miss out on outpacing so many things and OHKO'ing things off the bat. However, Mew does become a nightmare for really slow/bulky teams due to their lack of counters. Shit like Latios, Tornadus, and Thundurus can definitely ward it off though. I'd imagine the Mew set to be:
Mew @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 152 HP / 252 SpA / 104 Spe
Nature: Modest
-Nasty Plot
-Psycho Shock
-Fire Blast / Roost
-Aura Sphere
That's the problem you get with having both Excadrill and Thundurus in the same metagame. Both promote bulkier type of teams and offensive teams with blistering Speed see very little to no light. If one decides to boot out Excadrill, they better bring Thundurus along because these guys are promoting a bulky metagame. Besides, there's not much Pokemon that are viable that can outpace Thundurus bar Starmie.
Since we're on the topic of Nasty Plot sweepers, one should really try out Mew. It's practically a bulkier version of Azelf with Aura Sphere and higher Defenses to boot. It can accumulate more Nasty Plots than Azelf thanks to its standard set which draw in false counters. The only difference is that you'll miss out on outpacing so many things and OHKO'ing things off the bat. However, Mew does become a nightmare for really slow/bulky teams due to their lack of counters. Shit like Latios, Tornadus, and Thundurus can definitely ward it off though. I'd imagine the Mew set to be:
Mew @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 152 HP / 252 SpA / 104 Spe
Nature: Modest
-Nasty Plot
-Psycho Shock
-Fire Blast / Roost
-Aura Sphere
azelf is very underated. i use it on my sun team and it works wonders.
I use the moves:
[1] nasty plot
[2] fire blast
[3] psyshock
[4] hidden power [fighting]
It deals with its arch enemy chansey with psyshock and fireblast in the sun does a lot to every thing other then heatran in the sun and hidden power fighting for tyranitar because it would other wise kill me and wall this set. I hope for azelfs sake it gains more popularity when thundoures gets banned (i hope) although azelf would kill thoundoures 1 on 1 sense azelf is faster.
I use the moves:
[1] nasty plot
[2] fire blast
[3] psyshock
[4] hidden power [fighting]
It deals with its arch enemy chansey with psyshock and fireblast in the sun does a lot to every thing other then heatran in the sun and hidden power fighting for tyranitar because it would other wise kill me and wall this set. I hope for azelfs sake it gains more popularity when thundoures gets banned (i hope) although azelf would kill thoundoures 1 on 1 sense azelf is faster.
excuse me, when will this round come to end? and who is under testing to be banned/unbanned?
Dual Screen Memento Uxie is filthy in OU this generation. With two screens up and a memento, if the opponent is not wise enough to switch out, any set up sweeper of yours can set up without worry. And if they switch out, you get a free turn of set up.
Cloyster with its great pre-smash defenses sets up a smash so easily after a memento. Volcarona can start QD-ing without anything really harming it. Any D-dancer, Any Boosting Terrakion.
Its a great set up mon. And definitely bulky enough to survive 3 turns of whatever's attacking it.
I ran Dual Screens + Memento Latios once instead of Uxie. I found the uninvested power of Dragon Pulse to still be useful, and it's a lot less likely that someone is going to bring in something that will set up on you. When people see Uxie, they might see potential set up bait, but that's less likely with Latios, which brings in stuff like defensive variants of TTar, Scizor, Jirachi, Ferrothorn instead of set up sweepers.
I used the Latios along with Blaziken when it was around because the stuff Latios lures in (as mentioned above) are absolutely wrecked by Blaziken. I can imagine it can work equally great for something like Cloyster.
So you can use Uxie or Latios - it just depends whether you want a bit of power but less bulk (although Latios' speed and typing means it is still pretty easy to set up both screens).
I used the Latios along with Blaziken when it was around because the stuff Latios lures in (as mentioned above) are absolutely wrecked by Blaziken. I can imagine it can work equally great for something like Cloyster.
So you can use Uxie or Latios - it just depends whether you want a bit of power but less bulk (although Latios' speed and typing means it is still pretty easy to set up both screens).
On that note no ev's Tentacruel outspeeds Thunderus by 1 point with a Scarf :3
Found that out when I got Tricked today.
Found that out when I got Tricked today.
only problem with using screens latios... is that you could be running a specs latios or some other latios. i mean surprise factor and the fact that it works are still there, but why waste offenive stats like that for dual screens. especially since there are other mons to use screens
Momento in general is a great move for any screener, as it almost guarantees a free turn for your sweeper to do whatever it wants. While Latios has inferior defensive stats to Uxie, Latios also has a cool typing (resists Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, Leaf Storm, etc.) and is faster than Uxie. It also has high special attack to screw over Scizor that try to ruin the process with hp fire.
But ya, unless you really need Latios' typing, Uxie is probably the better screener most of the time.
I don't think Thundurus is fast enough to nullify blistering offensive teams. It's slower than Starmie. Scarftar, which is not a particularly fast mon, is faster than Thundurus (and Starmie). Excadrill is a different story.
I agree that Thundurus is a far superior NP Sweeper than Azelf, mostly due to Thundurus's better offensive typing. Personally, on a Psychic Pokemon, I'd rather increase coverage than going for the weak STAB. Aura Sphere / HP Fighting, Shadow Ball, and Flamethrower / Fire Blast for instance. Psyshock does have an appealing utility against Blissey / Chansey, but otherwise the coverage would be more useful.
Granted since Fighting + Ghost already offers perfect coverage, you can go with Psyshock over Fire, but Fire is a great offensive typing, taking out all those Steel Types that are neutral to Fighting.
The point is that teams don't carry alot of fast pokemon now because Excadrill makes them unviable. Why run something that relies on speed like Starmie when Excadrill is going to beat it without even trying? Instead of running faster pokemon and scarfers, you have to run slower bulkier pokemon that can wall Excadrill since you can't revenge it. Then Thundurus walks in and beats everything slower than it (except Gastrodon and Quagsire) and people start complaining.
well exca, while the best physical sweeper this gen imo, isnt broken. he has enough counters and checks to be used, and is completely weather reliant (unlike garchomp who was still good despite weather. didnt think chomp was broken either though...). i seriously just think we should be ban weather (i know a lot of people agree but its still not happening soon), cause that just centralizes the game. its seriously at the point where if you lose 1 pokemon the game is over, and its not based on team matchup, its the same pokemon every match.
I still run scarfers some times (specially Terrakion) even when Excadrill can outclass it (if you use sand, thing that I don't) having a scarfer saves your life so many times, like, if your Volcarona counter is dead in late game, here comes Terrakion to save the day, just use it when is extremely necessary
scarfer are less viable but not disappeared.
Simply there are less pokes good to be runned scarfed.
terrakion, landorus, Thundurus, Tyranitar, Politoed are all good scarfers.
Plus add the tricker like Rotom-w, Starmie, Metagross (less saw, yeah) and Azelf is still a good scarf tricker.
Yeah, things like Flygon are unseen but every generation brough some changes, the decrease of scarfer are of those changes.
Simply there are less pokes good to be runned scarfed.
terrakion, landorus, Thundurus, Tyranitar, Politoed are all good scarfers.
Plus add the tricker like Rotom-w, Starmie, Metagross (less saw, yeah) and Azelf is still a good scarf tricker.
Yeah, things like Flygon are unseen but every generation brough some changes, the decrease of scarfer are of those changes.
Well, Snunch made a post about that, but that's pretty similar to the idea of banning Ferrothorn to make bulky waters more viable again, and I sincerely doubt that's going to happen. I do agree that Excadrill is kind of pushing Scarfers out of the metagame -- last gen almost every team had a scarfer, while this has definitely decreased this gen. This may also be a part of the trend towards bulkier sweepers and tanks rather than fast frail attackers.
However, I don't believe this is enough for Excadrill to be ban-worthy.
I haven't really had the experience of "lose one pokemon and you lose the game" but I tend to run stall/nonweather teams. I haven't been finding I've been weak to any one weather in particular either, so my lack of suspect testing qualifications is probably due to 1) my "meh" battling skills and 2) my lack of much time to actually ladder. (and 3: the server is always down when I actually find the time to ladder 9.9)
But the "lose one pokemon and you lose the game" syndrome was there last gen too, though not quite to the same degree. If you lost your only check to you're opponent's ___ sweeper, you'd lose. If you think of weather inducers as simply checks to your opponent's weather sweepers -- which is exactly how I view them -- then this is much the same thing.
On the scarfed pokemon discussion, I've found that to be quite true in the current metagame thanks to excadrill and to an extent thunderus screwing up the speed tiers. However, there are still some good scarfers to run. I've found Rotom to be a great scarfer from many battles, as the specs variant is too slow to outrun common sweepers, and so functions better. Another pokemon this gen I've used to great extent as a scarf sweeper is chandelure. Chandelure is kind of a pokemon you HAVE to scarf, because his numerous weaknesses to common types will get him killed fast by other common sweepers if he's slower than them. He hits extremely hard, and the predictions are usually extremely easy to make. (you come in on a fire weak poke, he's obviously switching to his ttar, water ground, water type, etc)
We pretty much concluded the same thing - Excadrill alone hinders heavy offensive teams, because it forces teams to carry defensive Gliscors. If you want to check Thundurus, go ahead and use Scarf Landorus / Specs Jolteon or Raikou etc. Remove Excadrill out of the metagame, and the stopper on heavy offense is gone. The removal of Thundurus is not necessary for this, which franky suggested in his post.
Deoxys-S's Superpower OHKOs Excadrill 79% of the time.
Speak of the devil: Metagross66's offensive team that topped the leader boards
Speak of the devil: Metagross66's offensive team that topped the leader boards
Base 180 speed ftw. Is it just me or is 5th Gen pokemon turning into Dragonball Z? To be competitively viable in OU pokemon need either a trollish stat or a crazy niche, j/s. And about Accelgor, can it OHKO Excadrill? I know it's fast as heck but I think what's dropping it into obscurity is working off a base 100 sp atk. Not saying base 100 is bad, but in OU it doesn't have the bulk or typing to back it up.
Sounds great on paper, but for the record, if you bring Deoxys-S in on Excadrill, you can bank on seeing Gliscor/Skarm/Jellicent come in.
I believe it can 100% of the time with Choice Specs Focus Blast. However, if you run Choice Specs instead of Choice Scarf, you are no longer faster than Excadrill. However, since I would assume most Excadrill run at most 4 hp ev's, you could OHKO it with Scarfed Final Gambit at max hp (max hp base 80 = 364; 4 ev hp base 110 = 362). However, there would probably be better things to do with a team spot.
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