np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice

[Scoopapa]

SubPunch Golurk forces Chansey out and can KO with Focus Punch if it stays in.

Golurk unfortunately isn't 100% chansey insurance, but its presence on your team does help a lot. I ran a team with 3 physical 3 special pokes that used a Golurk, and didn't have an inordinate amount of trouble with Chansey.

With Golurk you can switch in almost for free (only Toxic stops it), which helps it over other counter such as, say, Heracross (who can't switch in over and over and over). One successful Focus Punch can pretty much put Chansey out of commission, unless it comes in on a very weak special attacker and SR isn't in play. This pretty much forces it to choose between healing itself and trying to heal its teammates, which I find is the only way to reliably beat Chansey. Most pokemon can't afford to switch right in to Chansey often enough to single handedly pull this off, but Golurk can. Luckily, Golurk is strong enough that you can kill a weakened teammate who might be receiving wish. On the other hand, if Chansey switches to something at high health that you can't kill, you can use Substitute and save the hit for a turn with no Wish. You have to predict well, certainly, but it at least has an answer to most of what Chansey can do. Toxic kind of crashes your party, unfortunately, so I'd recommend running Heal Bell somewhere (I did, at any rate).

 

[Wrave]

I changed from LO to Lum Berry so that Toxic is not an issue. I need to change a thing or two around on my team after realizing it has a glaring weakness.

 

[Raikaria]

I'm sorry but most of this post is just silly.

Firstly, you do not need all these wacky combos for mew to beat chansey, simply have taunt + roost and you beat it.

Secondly, no it wouldn't. There are plently of sets that kyogre can run to beat gastrodon / quagsire (subcm, any set with rest + coverage move) and shedinja is just not something you use in competitive arguments. Latios was an auto suspect in one of the rounds and I think it's usage even went down the next round while it get voted ou. Your part saying the voters are going to be the ones who can beat chansey also doesn't make sense as if it were the case, staraptor would still be uu.

Your Golurk post is just irrational as no competent player would just "let" you get up 3 layers of spikes and shadow punch does a lot to duskinoir which will either cause it to use rest and take a beating or outright die. Golurk also often runs stone edge over earthquake so so don't think zapdos is just roaring away for free.

.

I fail to see what is so wacky about 101 Subs... and I said Taunt was a good option too [The primary, in fact].

The Kyogre argument was an extreme example, I did not intend for it to be taken as a serious suggestion of Kyogre in OU [Although if it was, Shedinja would not be something you wouldn't use in competitive arguments].

As for Golurk:

Golurk: 252 Adamant, Leftovers [Subpunch would run Lefties].
Zapdos: Standard Physically Defensive set [248 HP, 228 Def, Bold]

Stone Edge deals 49.6% ~ 58.5%

Not a chance for a OHKO even after rocks. Zapdos can then proceed to Roost [Losing his weakness] until Stone Edge misses or runs out of it's meger 8 PP. Golurk isn't exactly bulky, so Heat Wave breaks the sub [Or Zapdos Roars it away]

As for the argument of a Focus Punch while Roosting, a neutral Focus Punch, even with Iron Fist, is weaker than a Super-Effective Stone Edge. It deals a maximum of 52.2%, which is a net recovery factoring Leftovers. And the risk that Zapdos could choose to not Roost and just Heat Wave/Roar.

So, no, my 'Zapdos beats Golurk' argument is perfectly valid, because Zapdos can shrug off both Stone Edge and Focus Punch.

As for Dusclops... I'll give you that one, as a 252/252 + Nature Dusclops takes 42.3% from Shadow Punch. Dusclops still takes out the sub, however, and would switch in for free due to Focus Punch. If Dusclops was faster, I'd say it would burn Golurk too, but, it's not.

 

[Scoopapa]

As for Golurk:

Golurk: 252 Adamant, Leftovers [Subpunch would run Lefties].
Zapdos: Standard Physically Defensive set [248 HP, 228 Def, Bold]

Stone Edge deals 49.6% ~ 58.5%

Not a chance for a OHKO even after rocks. Zapdos can then proceed to Roost [Losing his weakness] until Stone Edge misses or runs out of it's meger 8 PP. Golurk isn't exactly bulky, so Heat Wave breaks the sub [Or Zapdos Roars it away]

As for the argument of a Focus Punch while Roosting, a neutral Focus Punch, even with Iron Fist, is weaker than a Super-Effective Stone Edge. It deals a maximum of 52.2%, which is a net recovery factoring Leftovers. And the risk that Zapdos could choose to not Roost and just Heat Wave/Roar.

So, no, my 'Zapdos beats Golurk' argument is perfectly valid, because Zapdos can shrug off both Stone Edge and Focus Punch.

As for Dusclops... I'll give you that one, as a 252/252 + Nature Dusclops takes 42.3% from Shadow Punch. Dusclops still takes out the sub, however, and would switch in for free due to Focus Punch. If Dusclops was faster, I'd say it would burn Golurk too, but, it's not.

Golurk actually can beat Zapdos because when it uses Roost you can EQ instead of Focus Punch. After that it will die if it mispredicts (or it will die immediately if it runs too much speed). Neither one really outright beats the other, it all comes down to the prediction war. Given that Stone Edge doesn't really cut it vs Zapdos I think EQ is the better option in general. If you're looking for things that wreck Golurk, try Tangrowth.

 

[PttP]

I fail to see what is so wacky about 101 Subs... and I said Taunt was a good option too [The primary, in fact].

The Kyogre argument was an extreme example, I did not intend for it to be taken as a serious suggestion of Kyogre in OU [Although if it was, Shedinja would not be something you wouldn't use in competitive arguments].

As for Golurk:

Golurk: 252 Adamant, Leftovers [Subpunch would run Lefties].
Zapdos: Standard Physically Defensive set [248 HP, 228 Def, Bold]

Stone Edge deals 49.6% ~ 58.5%

Not a chance for a OHKO even after rocks. Zapdos can then proceed to Roost [Losing his weakness] until Stone Edge misses or runs out of it's meger 8 PP. Golurk isn't exactly bulky, so Heat Wave breaks the sub [Or Zapdos Roars it away]

As for the argument of a Focus Punch while Roosting, a neutral Focus Punch, even with Iron Fist, is weaker than a Super-Effective Stone Edge. It deals a maximum of 52.2%, which is a net recovery factoring Leftovers. And the risk that Zapdos could choose to not Roost and just Heat Wave/Roar.

So, no, my 'Zapdos beats Golurk' argument is perfectly valid, because Zapdos can shrug off both Stone Edge and Focus Punch.

As for Dusclops... I'll give you that one, as a 252/252 + Nature Dusclops takes 42.3% from Shadow Punch. Dusclops still takes out the sub, however, and would switch in for free due to Focus Punch. If Dusclops was faster, I'd say it would burn Golurk too, but, it's not.

Yes, the pokemon who dies to entry hazards/weather should obviously be used in all competitive discussions especially with team preview telling you to get hazards up, which will in turn give your opponent a free turn down the line when you have to use rapin spin.

Notice how I did NOT say golurk beats zapdos. All I said was zapdos is going to get severly injured by roaring golurk. If you switched into SR, then immediately tried roaring golurk out, you would take nearly 75%, easy pickings for another pokemon. If you decide to roost te turn you switch in, you still take around 25%, and then he can get focus punch you until you use roar, which will leave you around 50% after the encouter. Again, another pokemon will force zapdos out and you will be left with a 25% zapdos, which is not preferable in any situation.

 

[Percussionist]

I hope to God Chansey gets banned, my Life Orb Mamoswine gets walled by it. Special attacks aren't any better. And if it has Heal Bell/Aromatherapy and Softboiled it just waits for my team to die from residual damage (Toxic, LO, weather). How do you play around Chansey?

 

[Banedon]

I got a suggestion ... why don't you use Chansey yourself and find out?

 

[Raikaria]

Last thing on Sheddy:

If Sheddy is being used to counter Kyogre, that means the weather is Rainy, which dosent hurt Shedinja, so that's one possible methord of killing Shedinja gone.

Anyway, from my current useage of Chansey, on something I openly admit I fail at, an attempt at a stall team, I can say:

1: Things are over-centralised. I saw a KNOCK OFF EMPOLEON for crying out loud. What possible use does that have outside of Chansey, especially when Emploeon already suffers slight 4MMS [STAB + Ice Beam + Coverage/Agility/Sub/Roar/SR]

2: Chansey isn't the be-all and end all, but, it's still invaluable. I'll probobly stick Protect on my Chansey over Toxic now, seeing as I've implemented a T-Spiker on my team. That should help my Chansey heal itself up better.

3: Zapdos + Chansey is a great combination, but isn't quite SkarmBliss.

 

[TEA_DEMON]

actually i find that knock off is perfectly good on empoleon because for defensive sets you only really need stab / ice beam / roar / filler, and knock off is pretty good filler.

Rather strange though how 5th gen Roserades don't seem to use Sleep Powder much.

i know sleep powder+spikes was an illegal egg move combo in 4th gen, so it's probably still illegal this gen.

 

[JockeMS]

Yeah, Spikes Roserade can't use Sleep Powder.

But it can use Grasswhistle...

 

[Avira]

1: Things are over-centralised. I saw a KNOCK OFF EMPOLEON for crying out loud. What possible use does that have outside of Chansey, especially when Emploeon already suffers slight 4MMS [STAB + Ice Beam + Coverage/Agility/Sub/Roar/SR]

Knock Off has way more utility than you think. Chansey isn't the only Eviolite user around, and knocking off Leftovers/Black Sludge, Life Orb, and Choice Band/Specs, could mean the difference between a win or a loss. If you already have SR on another Pokemon, a set of Knock Off, Scald, Ice Beam, and Roar, is completely fine.

 

[dori]

What are things that like to switch into Empoleon anyways?

Celebi? You actually get to do 10% in addition to getting rid of it's Leftovers. It's now taking 12% every switch-in without Leftovers to soften the blow.

Milotic/Blastoise? Bulky waters without Leftovers means you have a better chance to get past them with Arcanine and such. Or imagine if Milotic got burned, if you take it's Leftovers away, that's 12% a turn, and it comes in on Stealth Rock, so potentially each switch in 24%.

Zapdos? If it was Choiced, it now loses a huge advantage and you know exactly what set it's running. Predictability for you to abuse.

Abomasnow? Don't you love with slow SR weak Pokemon have no items what so ever?

So yes, it does rape the living shit out of Chansey, but when all your counters dont have items, it's always a ++++++++++++++++, especially if someone tries to double switch you anticipating you to switch out so they go for a sweep, only now their Balloon/Resist berry/Lum is gone.

 

[114]

lol.... if you're arguing that knock off has a competitive use in the metagame other than for chansey then you know you're getting desperate. Chansey is basically insane overcentralization. I agree with fireblitz's posts and all other chansey ban posters

 

[Raikaria]

lol.... if you're arguing that knock off has a competitive use in the metagame other than for chansey then you know you're getting desperate. Chansey is basically insane overcentralization. I agree with fireblitz's posts and all other chansey ban posters

Ferroseed and Dusclops [One of which loves to switch on Emploeon due to resistsing everything but the almost never used HP Fire/Fighting] Other than that though, I agree with that you say. [But note I'm not pro or anto ban yet]

Anyway, after using Chansey on a stall oriented team, which, admittedly, is my worst sort of team... I'm actually underwelmed.

Chansey... isn't doing much. I don't even use it much to take hits, due to a lack of resistances. I'd rather be using Alomomola as a Wishpasser, that way, I can spam Scald for Burns, and actually have resistances.

Admittedly, this is probobly because everyone is running something which can set up on Chansey, such as Mismagius or Mew, or something such as CB Heracross to fore it out... or Knock Off XYZ.

Ironically, despite Chansey being fail 90% of the time... I managed to get into the Top 90 using a playstyle I loathe. I thank SubSplit Rotom for that, as well as Sp.Def Drapion being a rather good Mismagius check. [Provided it lacks T-Bolt]

However, my use of Chansey on my stall-oriented team is telling me one of two things:

1: Chansey is not broken outright
2: Chansey is not broken on DEFENSIVE teams, but may be broken on an offensive/balanced team

Anyway, it's back to the drawing board. I'm gonna try and make a more offensively inclined team with Chansey [And SubSplit Rotom, that thing is awesome and laughs at Chansey all day long]

--------

As a side note, although I do run Chansey, Mismagius is a pain. There is NO counter to a Mismagius behind a Sub, and very few to those without one. Most of the checks can be crippled by a possible Will-O-Wisp, and those that aren't are maimed by -insert attack at +2 here-. So, I felt like asking, is Mismagius a pain in the current metagame if you don't run Chansey [The ultimiate Missy Setup Bait]? If it is as much of a pain without Chansey to set up on, I think it's probobly an offensive suspect. If not, nevermind.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

I'm pretty sure that Spiritomb is/can be a a good Mismagius counter.

 

[GtM]

Knock Off is a good option for Empoleon, it disarms a bunch of offensive and defensive threats in the tier and is useful for scouting (since if you know an opponent's item, you can likely figure out their set). It also capitalises on Empoleon's ability to force switches with its typing and bulk (not to mention Roar if necessary). I mean, what are you hitting hard with an uninvested Ice Beam anyways?

 

[blarajan]

Knock Off is a good option for Empoleon, it disarms a bunch of offensive and defensive threats in the tier and is useful for scouting (since if you know an opponent's item, you can likely figure out their set). It also capitalises on Empoleon's ability to force switches with its typing and bulk (not to mention Roar if necessary). I mean, what are you hitting hard with an uninvested Ice Beam anyways?

Dude, don't undermine Ice Beam on Empoleon. It's not like every Grass type pokemon in the tier is immediately threatening and/or has Natural Cure + Rest, or that every Flying type pokemon has an Electric typing to threaten you out, or access to Roost. It hits Gligar for 4x Super Effective! CAN SCALD CLAIM THAT? I THINK NOT.

 

[TelamonianAjax]

Dude, don't undermine Ice Beam on Empoleon. It's not like every Grass type pokemon in the tier is immediately threatening and/or has Natural Cure + Rest, or that every Flying type pokemon has an Electric typing to threaten you out, or access to Roost. It hits Gligar for 4x Super Effective! CAN SCALD CLAIM THAT? I THINK NOT.

I think Ice Beam is more useful in OU due to the prevalence of dragons in that tier. Further, a 0 investment Ice Beam only OHKOs 252/0 Eviolite Gligar 2.56% of the time. Knock Off makes Scald do 80.8–92.4% to the same Gligar anyway.

As for other utility, let's take a look at the UU stats for June. Of the 30 most common Pokemon, the only ones that you'd really rather be hitting with Ice Beam than Scald—excluding Staraptor—are: Zapdos, Celebi, Roserade, Flygon, and Kingdra. 0/0 Zapdos is taking 50.5% max from Ice Beam. Celebi takes 44% max, Roserade takes 52% max, and Flygon is gone. Kingdra takes nothing from Scald, but also only takes 26% max from Ice Beam (and Kingdra is more likely to be uninvested in SpD). Given that Celebi and Roserade will usually invest in HP (except for NP Celebi, who either passes the plot or OHKOs with Earth Power), Flygon is the only one for whom Ice Beam is the clear choice.

Edit: Yes, I did miss the blatant sarcasm. I blame the internet.

 

[blarajan]

I think you missed the blatant sarcasm in my post.

 

[reachzero]

Neither Ice Beam nor Knock Off is especially useful on Empoleon, I would much rather use Grass Knot for other bulky waters, or Toxic for the same reason.

 

[blarajan]

Neither Ice Beam nor Knock Off is especially useful on Empoleon, I would much rather use Grass Knot for other bulky waters, or Toxic for the same reason.

Knock Off actually is rather useful on Empoleon though. It's got a great defensive typing for the tier allowing it to actually use the move. Celebi, Milotic, Chansey, Zapdos, Kingdra, etc all destroy Empoleon and are common switch ins. Removing their Leftovers, Life Orb, Choice Item, Eviolite, or Chesto Berry or something significantly descreases their longevity and effectiveness, allowing you to kill them rather easily. + Grass Knot doesn't even hit a lot of the water types all that hard iirc, and Toxic doesn't really phaze Chansey, Celebi, or Milotic (Rest Talk variants).

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

For OU, Ice Beam is definately better IMO, as all the dragons and ice weak pokemon are murdered. In UU I'd say grass knot because there's more bulky waters.

 

[blarajan]

Use Knock Off. In UU the only things you'd hit reasonably hard with Grass Knot are Slowbro, Blastoise, and Milotic. None will appreciate losing their leftovers, anyways.

 

[Avira]

However, my use of Chansey on my stall-oriented team is telling me one of two things:

1: Chansey is not broken outright
2: Chansey is not broken on DEFENSIVE teams, but may be broken on an offensive/balanced team

Perhaps I wasn't clear a few days ago, but I did try to say that Chansey is a liability on full stall (Although, I didn't explicitly type that). Chansey's normal typing is not good for team synergy and the special attackers that do beat Chansey will kill you if you only leave two slots open to beat them.

As a side note, although I do run Chansey, Mismagius is a pain. There is NO counter to a Mismagius behind a Sub, and very few to those without one. Most of the checks can be crippled by a possible Will-O-Wisp, and those that aren't are maimed by -insert attack at +2 here-. So, I felt like asking, is Mismagius a pain in the current metagame if you don't run Chansey [The ultimiate Missy Setup Bait]? If it is as much of a pain without Chansey to set up on, I think it's probobly an offensive suspect. If not, nevermind.

Mismagius is easier for a full stall team to deal with when one doesn't use Chansey. You can use Registeel, Snorlax, or Umbreon for Nasty Plot variants. A stallbreaker set can be managed with a defensive specially defensive or scarfed fire type, by switching in a Synchronize user when you expect Will-O-Wisp, or by using Dragon Tail to force it out. Offensive teams have other ways to beat it.

On another note, what I do believe to be an offensive suspect is Gallade. It still destroys stall like it had during DPP and is still decent against offensive teams. I think it is as suspect worthy as anything else

 

[SJCrew]

You're going to need a better argument for Gallade being suspect than destroying stall. There's no shortage of Pokemon that destroy stall in Gen 5 UU. Take Honchkrow, for instance, which is still borderline impossible to beat without obliterating your last lines of defense. Cobalion and Zapdos are probably the greatest checks to it we could have hoped for, but other than that, you're looking at mission impossible. And good luck stalling against NP Mew. Or Azelf. Or Mew period.