A treatise on newly posted teams.

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I appoligize in advance for not being overly concise; I promise a tl;dr @ the end.

Honestly, when I took interest in Net Battle back in the GSC days, things were much the same as they are now and will be in the months to come. "Competitive" Pokemon has always boiled down to:

*Finding the most effective strategies
*Finding the Pokemon who best embody those strategies
*Trying your best to evolve your play style around your counters

Really, there's not much else to it. The only thing that separates OU from UU from Ubers are agreed-upon tiers of power. But you see, Ubers was created to keep Mewtwo, Mew and friends at bay because they totally dominate with near-broken efficiency when facing a team without Ubers (most of the time). Think Darcry. Gamefreak keeps creating these powerhouses for thier own reasons, but even they acknowledge that Ubers ought to be set apart. I reference all the in-game exclusions of Ubers in contrast to NoA's allowance of most Ubers in competitive play.

When it came down to the inane bog of standars of Advance OU, though, I knew that the tier system had extended beyond it's original intent. I'm still all for the Uber tier remaining as a barrier, and for most clauses remaining (Sleep & Freeze, Selfdestruct, Destiny Bond & Perish Song and the optional Item clause)...

Pokemon is so naturally unbalanced it's rediculous. Playing in "no rules" matches aren't very exciting because of how broken and cheap it feels sometimes. The constraints placed on competitive play definitely serve to keep things interesting. We've all been playing under them for so long that I don't believe any of us will be able to easily carve out a new path.

In my opinion, besides dropping the "wall mentaility" of Advance all but completely, the only "new" method of play is going to be various themed teams -- color, type, egg group, stats, weather and so on.

tl;dr : Pokemon is insanely repetitive by nature. If that's becoming a problem for you, please recommend some way to spice it up!
 
I notice that almost all the sweeper teams being posted whose intent is sweeping with raw power and speed have no way of dealing with good trick room teams.

Jumpman16 said:
You are 6-0ed by Gyarados and/or Azelf, try again.

(See how fun your brand of pokémon is?)
Click to expand...

You forgot to mention Sala, Ttar, Gaburaisu, Hera, Infernape, Snorlax, PZ, Gengar, Jirachi, Starhawk, Lucario, Raikou, Starmie, Manaphy, Suicune, Metagross, Aerodactyl, Slaking, Dragonite, Dugtrio, AG Cham, Trick room Dosaidon, TR Rampard, TR Scizor, TR Jibacoil. Did I forget anyone, oh yeah, MAGIKARP. Oops my team forgot to cover those too. =) and my team is 4x weak to stealth rock.

PS. Relicath is looking for love, too. and Kazam, haven't seen that on many teams.

Edit:This is about the fifteenth time I've editted this. I just read your Duggie thread, Jump. Forgot to add Weavile to the list.
 
I like the idea of mixing all tiers into 1 team, to creat 6 pokemon:

1 Uber
1 Legend. (Some people consider them Ou, but even Legends are 1-2 per team, like BL in UU). ie: dogs/birds/Regice/celebi/Sheimi, etc).
1 Ou
1 Bl
1 UU
1 NU

So perhaps your team may be like this:

Groudon
Moltres
Goukazaruu
Exeggutor
Cherrim
Sunflora
 
Brock † said:
I like the idea of mixing all tiers into 1 team, to creat 6 pokemon:

1 Uber
1 Legend. (Some people consider them Ou, but even Legends are 1-2 per team, like BL in UU). ie: dogs/birds/Regice/celebi/Sheimi, etc).
1 Ou
1 Bl
1 UU
1 NU

So perhaps your team may be like this:

Groudon
Moltres
Goukazaruu
Exeggutor
Cherrim
Sunflora
Click to expand...

I like. Very interesting idea for a tourney, though I doubt a metagame will revolve around this.
 
(Some people consider them Ou, but even Legends are 1-2 per team, like BL in UU). ie: dogs/birds/Regice/celebi/Sheimi, etc).
Click to expand...
ps legends isn't a tier

EDIT: There's nothing stopping you from using UUs in OU :/
 
chewy im with you on the trick room theme! gonna fuck up loads of teams on wifi with mine >:D relicanth is gonna own.
 
Coalex, I know It's not a tier, and I'm not proposing it as one, (which is why I had my explanation in paranthesis), but I can't think of any other form of seperating 5 tiers into 6. (or 4, if you don't consider BL a tier).

Also I could change it to: 1 Uber, 2 Ou, 1 BL, 1, UU, 1 Nu.

Mequuh, that isn't true. If their Uber is groudon, and they beat your groudon, you can still win with a Chlorophyller/Moltres and also kill their Groudon.

Plus that was just an easy example of a team, nothing really planned out.


*On a Side note, since the 1st page was talking about Strategic Teams, I would like to post a link to this:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17742

It is currently being adjusted, but it covers many counters, has synchronisity (pokemon work together), and has an interesting Strategy.

*I wont give anymore away, as you can see it for yourself.
 
stay on topic. OU won't change, that's not the point. The point is to design a team within the usual constraints that has a strategy.
 
Hmm, let's see the basic format for a team:

Pokemon Requirements for a Good Team:

Physical Sweeper &/or A Physical Tank (physical attacks will still be more common than Special I believe).
Special Tank &/or A Special Sweeper
Rapid Spinner &/or A Flyer/Levitator (immune to eq/spikes/poison spikes/isn't weak to Srock).

& FINALLY-

Bulky Water- Can be any of the above, but have a Bulky Water in your team nonetheless. (Can fit role of a Physical tank like Suicune/Swampert, Special Tank like Vaporeon, Physical Sweeper like Gyarados, Special Sweeper like Starmie, a Rapid Spinner like Blastoise/Starmie, or a Flyer like Mantine/Gyarados).

*Yes, I do consider Starmie, and Gyarados Bulky. Gyarados gets Intimidate, and Starmie gets Recover and Natural Cure. With proper defenses, these can take hits.

Recommended Pokemon for a Good team:

Spiker & Ghost type (anti-rapid spin, but you could just use sub to prevent destruction of spikes).
Tyranitar/Hippo (for Sand Stream) OR Yuki (hailer: for BL/UU)
Mixed Sweeper (can possibly replace need for both a physical and special sweeper, ie: Infernape)
Mixed tank (ie: Umbreon/ Curselax, can possibly replace need for both a physical and special sweeper)
 
Yeah, everybody read this, and if you have it probably wouldn't hurt to read it again. I'm sure I'm not the only one getting tired of "look at me!" attention threads thinly- and poorly-veiled as RMTs.
 
There are just too many threats to have counters for anymore.
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I outright disagree with this. I have created a team with no center that covers about 99% of the D/P threats, and the remaining 1% isn't getting through easily either
 
Surgo, could you create an article about building teams using an unifying strategy? It would certainly help, those with the poor building skills(like me for example).

anyway, for now I am trying to put a defensive team together that weakens the opponent using WoW, Stealth Rock and Confuse Ray. Does that fall under Unifying strategy, or not?
 
That's not a bad idea at all, I'll see about doing that.

As far as your team goes, interesting but I don't think confuse ray would be all that effective. I'm guessing your Confuse Ray users fall under the category of 'annoyers', and they haven't worked very well since GSC.
 
Surgo said:
That's not a bad idea at all, I'll see about doing that.

As far as your team goes, interesting but I don't think confuse ray would be all that effective. I'm guessing your Confuse Ray users fall under the category of 'annoyers', and they haven't worked very well since GSC.
Click to expand...
thanx for considering it.

as for confuse ray, since I already used a stat changer, I needed something else to mess with my opponent. What I thought up was Confuse Ray. But I doubt my team is stable, but I will post it sooner or later.
 
With Infernape having equal SA and Atk, even though mixed is more popular, you still have no idea what the opponent will use next.
 
Perhaps a Leech Seeder KiMeS, Celebi perhaps: LS, Calm Mind, Baton Pass, Wish.

Wish Support in general is helpful, especially as you take hits while W-o-Wing, Srocking, and CRaying. This Celebi basically creates a strong Special Defense, and Special Offense, Heals, and Drains life.

Natural Cure allows it to safely Baton Pass out if inflicted with Burn, Paralysis, etc.

It can be taunted, but it can also switch out.
 
Surgo said:
That's not a bad idea at all, I'll see about doing that.

As far as your team goes, interesting but I don't think confuse ray would be all that effective. I'm guessing your Confuse Ray users fall under the category of 'annoyers', and they haven't worked very well since GSC.
Click to expand...

I think the key to using confuse ray is to not overuse it. Considering that there are more pokemon who are trying to beef up their attack than ever before combined with the fact that some of them will be using this newfangled Life Orb combined with the fact that more things get spikes-type moves means that hitting yourself in confusion...could hurt a lot!

An important thing to remember in general is that while you don't have to have a "master plan" where you set up one pokemon and sweep the opponent's team, you can't take a passive role (aside from the possible exception of GSC).
 
Hmm, this is kinda weird, we Dont have D/P yet, and were sick to death of "standarized" teams. [I agree completly, dont get me wrong.]

No doubt this will make a chain reaction, inducing "suprise movesets" in other words, you will never know what to expect from some pokemons now...
 
DISCLAIMER:
I hope with all of my heart that the following post encourages lively and intellegent discussion and doesn't offend any members of this community to any significant degree.

This may either sound somewhat unorthodox, or maybe extremely overused, but in order to counter a large portion of major threats and still have some offensive strength, you could use a series of physical and special tanks, and then just insert a single extra-quick sweeper along with the rest of them. This won't counter all threats, but it should help with countering a large portion of them. Okay, so walling doesn't really work all that well. Tanking still should, and throughout this whole thread, I haven't seen a single convincing argument that tanks can't still be used to great effect.

PS: I hope that my coloration of peoples' quotes for the purpose of avoiding confusion doesn't in fact create more of it.

Chewy: "There are just too many threats to have counters for anymore."
(Reason: While this isn't quite true, he brings up a core argument that should help people to see what they think the metagame will develop into.)

Jibaku: "I outright disagree with this. I have created a team with no center that covers about 99% of the D/P threats, and the remaining 1% isn't getting through easily either"

Reason: Really? Did you read all of those threats outlined in Chewy's post? Perhaps... "You forgot to mention Sala, Ttar, Gaburaisu, Hera, Infernape, Snorlax, PZ, Gengar, Jirachi, Staraptor, Lucario, Raikou, Starmie, Manaphy, Suicune, Metagross, Aerodactyl, Slaking, Dragonite, Dugtrio, AG Cham, Trick room Dosaidon, TR Rampard, TR Scizor, TR Jibacoil. Did I forget anyone?" it goes on "PS. Relicath is looking for love, too. and Kazam, haven't seen that on many teams."

That's kind of alot of stuff. Granted, not all of these things will be on every team, but you said that your team counters 99% of all threats. No it doesn't. If you would've said 65%, 70%, or maybe even 82.5%, I might've taken that seriously; and maybe that is what you meant, and 99% was just exageration. Jibaku, I respect you and your team-building skills immensely, but your team does not handle 99% of all threats, regardless of your claims. If you meant "mostly counters 99% of all threats", that seems likely, but I'm quite sure that there are several semi-popular BLs, and some slightly BL standards that could give your team huge problems. I'm a n00b at smogon, but I've been with pokemon from the very beginning, and I've watched how the strategies have evolved, and in D/P, I have been convinced, by evidence and by persuasive arguments by other highly respected members of the smogon community, that the metagame will no longer see teams that counter everything. It might've been possible in the past, but I think that those times are most assuredly over.

BTW, I'm really and truly not trying to cause you any offense. I am just trying to help us (the community, me, and you) consider the metagame from the most realistic possible assumptions.

EDIT: I'm sorry if this might've been slightly off-topic.
 
I think the most important thing for building a team which you can truly call a team, rather than just 6 pokemon you're using, is to have a feel for them, to really sense that they operate for a greater purpose no matter what the theme may be.

Really take into account the unique strengths and weaknesses of each Pokemon. Do not go, "I want to use Parasect," then just replace Azelf or Gyarados or whatever on your standard team of sweepers.

A possible problem with Surgo's post is that it might make everyone just use the 6-sweepers team because the goal of it is to just brute force the opponent and to hell with counters. Please, please, PLEASE try to do something different. I'm not asking you to use Noctowl in OU, but there's such a range of possibilities with this new generation that I am tired of seeing the same teams over and over when the game hasn't even hit Amercan shores yet.

Do not be afraid of trying something out of hand or something that the general mindset of UC does not agree with. What is good or isn't good can be argued, but that is the important thing about a discussion board. Rational discussion and explanation of ideas leads to greater understanding.
 
I like the 6-sweepers approach the best, or better than trying to cover some things. Granted, like Misty, I'm fond of throwing Slowbro on there considering he's good for the main threats, giving a fighting chance. But honestly, without using a team like Jumpman's or Phuquoph's (sorry I am going to butcher your name since I'm too lazy to look it up), you aren't covered everything, or even when you are using those.

And most teams seem to be the standard 4/5/6-defensive Pokemon teams. I've seen VERY few really really offensive teams, and two of them were mine. :]
 
There's been a lot of really offensive teams posted here. Their offensiveness had more to do with quality, rather than team strategy though.

It seems entirely possible to pull off an all out offense team. Many of the better sweepers (with the exception of Azelf) have decent defensive capabilities too.
 
I'm not saying that a high-offense team ISN'T effective. What I am saying is that there is the potential for so many other strategies and that the problem is how people are viewing things.

Let's assume everything said about the predicted DP metagame is true and that there are so many threats out now that a team can't possibly cover all of them. This is the thrust behind Surgo's original post. Creating a traditional team doesn't work quite as well.

I don't want to put words in Surgo's mouth, but the way I see it, the point of "creating your own unique threat" is to have an overall team theme such that you don't have to always be checking what counters what or what is weak to what possibly common Pokemon. Instead of always looking out at the proposed metagame, you have to sometimes look inside and draw out a general theme or idea around which you can build a team. Rather than trying to create a diversified team, try to create a team with a single overall purpose, even if that purpose is actually many smaller purposes.

If D/P's insanely diversified metagame is a wall, then your goal is to not get through it but AROUND it.
 
Very well put, SDShamsel (post your last sentence in every RMT you see).

If you're constantly trying to counter your opponent, then you're already on the way to a loss. If you load your team with defensive counters then you've forgotten to add a real threat of your own, unique or otherwise.
 
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