Giving Lati@s a chance in standard?

StrikeJP

I’ve been lurking these boards for a while now and I’ve seen the mention that OHKO, DT, and Wobboffet should all be given a fair shake on their chance to get into the metagame. Yet every time Lati@s is brought up it’s generally shot down pretty quickly. However, I think in this supposed hyper offensive game of DP, they deserve a chance too, at the very least be tested (without Soul Dew of course). I’ll try and make the best argument I can for this.

First of all there have been a good amount of topics which have been, “What’s the best counter for Infernape/ Garchomp/ Gyarados/ Heracross, etc?” Now from what I understand, things are moved to the Uber tier because they centralize the metagame. A lot of the mentioned pokes, do tend to do that. A lot of the RMT’s that have been posted usually have trouble with the following pokes, that’s why the battle cry for these boards has been “make a strategy and carry it out, don’t just post standards because there is simply too much to counter.” The only reason I see the following pokes aren’t pushed into Uber is because their defenses aren’t so great or they have a 4x weakness. This is the only thing that I see that differentiates Lati@s from the others, no 4x weakness. Because Celebi also has Recover/Calm Mind combo, but is still generally accepted. It also has a good speed to tear apart teams, but so does Garchomp. Garchomp can out speed all the base 100’s, yet from what we’ve seen it hasn’t done so well in the war stories thus far.

Now I think if you focus on the defense side of things, they can be taken down fairly quick. Now the general move set for these two will probably be the following:

Lati@s @ Leftovers
Reflect/ Safeguard
Dragon Pulse
Recover
Calm Mind

Here are the Pokemon that can put a dent or reasonably counter Latias (I picked the higher defense of the two, taking into consideration max HP and max Def):

Aerodactyl: Come in on a Calm Mind and with a max attack Choice Band Stone Edge you get about 53%-62%. Shouldn’t bother with Reflect version.

Blissey: Laughs at the Reflect version. Thunderwave and Ice Beam it to death. Shouldn’t come in on the Safeguard version.

Cresselia: It can take a Dragon Pulse and annoy with Thunderwave and Ice Beam on the Reflect version. With the Safeguard version, if Cresselia starts losing out to Calm Mind, it can put up a Light Screen so that something else can come in.

Dragonite: Can’t come in very well but with some good prediction, an Outrage will OHKO on max attack. Outrage will also 52%-61% on Reflect version.

Dugtrio: It can do its usual job of finishing off a Poke after you put a dent in Lati@s. Come in with a Choice Band Blade Test and do 43%-50% (even though it can escape Arena Trap, a bit of a last resort, needs some predicting). Shouldn’t bother with the Reflect version.

Garchomp: Can’t come in very well, but with some prediction and max attack it does 70%-82% with a Dragon Claw. Shouldn’t bother with the Reflect version.

Gyarados: Max attack Ice Fang does about 49%-57%. It can also take Dragon Pulse’s fairly well with some good EV’s. Shouldn’t bother with Reflect version.

Heracross: Max attack Megahorn does 65%-77%. It’s best left to finish the job, although it can switch in fairly well with some good EV’s. A Life Orb version would rock Lati@s.

Lati@s: Why not counter each other?

Ludicolo: Can take a Dragon Pulse and do it’s usual annoying Leech Seed while Ice Beaming it.

Manaphy: It can take a Dragon Pulse and destroy with Tail Glow and Ice Beam.

Metagross: It can take a Dragon Pulse and max attack Meteor Mash does 43%-51%. Explosion is good if you’re on the losing end. Shouldn’t bother with the Reflect version.

Milotic: Can take a Dragon Pulse. It can Hypnosis the Reflect version and Ice Beam it to death. It can Haze the Safeguard version and Ice Beam it.

Regice: Completely destroys the Reflect version with Thunderwave and Ice Beam and it can take Dragon Pulses easily. It can also jack up the Safeguard version by using Psych Up to copy the Calm Minds.

Salamence: Can’t come in very well, but with some prediction and max attack it does 70%-82% with a Dragon Claw. Shouldn’t bother with the Reflect version.

Snorlax: Can take a Dragon Pulse fairly well and retaliate with a 40%-47% Crunch. If it Calm Mind’s you can also Curse at the same time. Shouldn’t bother with Reflect Version.

Suicine: Can Calm Mind right along with it and Ice Beam it to hell. Also take’s Dragon Pulses well.

Tyranitar: Can take a Dragon Pulse reasonably well with some good EV’s. Max attack Crunch does 69%-82%. CBtar destroys Lati@s and even does well against Reflect version with 52%-61% that has a Reflect up. Sandstorm takes away its Leftovers.

Vaporeon: It can take a Dragon pulse. Haze version gets rid of Calm Minds and it can Ice Beam it. It can use Wish when Lati@s retaliates. Any other version of Vaporeon doesn’t do so well.

Weavile: A max attack Ice Punch does about 62%-73%. It can switch in on a Calm Mind and lay waste. Reflect version it doesn’t do so great against unless you go with a Choice Band.

As you can see, there are plenty of Standard Pokes that can hurt Lati@s. There are probably some I missed and even some BL Pokemon that might be able to hurt them. Keep in mind that was a Max HP and Def, often times they won’t have that, which means some of those moves become OHKO’s instead of two. Latios would fall even harder due to its lower Defense (even though it hits harder).

So am I way off, or is there a chance the poor Lati twins can become a part of standard? I’d be interested to hear what people think.
 
Just so you know, you might get alot of tl;dr posts. But anyway, I love how you did all your research; this could very well be the best topic like this that's been in this forum. I'm all for letting Soul Dew-less Latis into Standard, because as you said, many of the standards can do a fair amount of damage to them under the worst circumstances (Max HP and Defense).
 
This is an interesting thought it, it seems that you did alot of research and know what your talking about.

One thing that is odd about Latios and Latias is the Nintendo itself doesn't consider them uber (unless they are holding Soul Dew) and allowed them in The Battle Tower in RS ( I'm not sure about Emerald because I have played that game) and in D/P they're allowed in it's Battle Tower.

The thing that is great about Latios and Latias is it's typing plus it's amazing trait. Now I'm not going to try to elaborate on more than I seem to know, but perhaps Latios and Latias could be given a chance to be tested in D/P, there really isn't a harm to testing them because if they prove to be to powerful they can be banned again.
 
It's a very bright point, but by looking at your post, I can say that over half of your post does not counter Lati@s
 
Removing Soul Dew doesn't change it's exceptional stats, typing or movepool.

Half the Pokemon you listed as "counters" are slower and/or die to Latios easily, especially Garchomp and Salamence who have no chance against it.

You're also only thinking about one set. How much does a CG Meteoric Swarm do to Weavile? What does Suicune, Milotic and Tyranitar do against it if it's got Grass Rope?

I love Latios, he's been on every single uber team I've made but he's just way too powerful for OU. Sorry, but many of your points are flawed. Nevetheless, this was a well written thread so I must congratulate you on that.
 
I like the idea of banning Soul Dew instead of Lati@s, but they might still be too powerful. I like how you thought up some counters to them, but frankly, half of them die to a CM Dragon Pulse.

I'd definitely be all for testing them in Competitor, but it's going to be a pain to get a good natured one for WiFi.
 
That whole list wasn't meant to be taken as counters. Some of them were, but some of them I was just trying to show that Lati@s has a hard time switching in. I also realize I was focusing on one set, which would probably be the main set, but like I said before there is too much to take into consideration to counter all Pokemon and their many different sets.
 
Good research, but less than stellar accuracy and poor logic.

I'm for trying it out, but only becasue nintendo doesn't consider them uber and I think that we should all get some practice in a nintendo-style tournament before nintendo hosts any. Even nintendo discourages the use of soul dew (considering that it's more bogus than OJ Simpson's court defense, I can't blame them), so we should take that out of the picture, at least. So yes, I think that we should try this.

Good job on your first post! You thought it out ahead of time; most people don't seem to do that on their first posts.

EDIT: you completely forgot about boltbeaming Lati@s. This may sound obnoxious, but you should edit your original posts with counters for more sets, becasue that isn't a particularly good set to begin with.

EDIT#2: Steel types would probably be the only things that could genuinely counter Latios/as. They can't learn flamethrower. I'm still hard-pressed to think of any good counters off the top of my head, though...
 
You're way overestimating the amount that Ice Beam does to Lati@s. Most unSTABed Ice Beams will only 3HKO, and worse when they get Calm Minds down. Also, it's appalling that you would even mention things like Dragonite and Garchomp as potential counters. And I repeat because it's such an important point: Ice Beam does not assrape Lati@s like it does other Dragons; Lati@s can usually survive two unSTABed Ice Beams.
 
Articuno should do pretty well against it imo. Thunderbolt might hurt, but Arti's Ice Beam still does a lot to it. Glaceon's will OHKO even though it's not 4x weak to it. (Glaceon does after all have 394 max SAtk) They could also counter each other, along with Aero/Duggy and, of course, Blissey/Regice. Steel types work too.

Standard Latios would be something like this imo.

Latios @ Life Orb/Leftovers
EVs: 252 SAtk/252 Spd/6 HP
Nature: Timid (Spd+/Atk-)
- Calm Mind
- Recover/Feather Rest
- Dragon Pulse
- Psychic/HP Fire/Thunderbolt

or:

Latios @ Choice Glasses/Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 SAtk/252 Spd/6 HP
Nature: Timid/Modest
- Psychic/Luster Purge
- Dragon Pulse/Meteoric Swarm
- Shadow Ball/Ice Beam
- Energy Ball/Thunderbolt

Those might be harder to counter.
 
Lati@s get an easy switch on Skarmory, CBed Earthquakes, and most bulky waters. They have great Special Defense and can switch into an Ice Beam and set up on them.

It definitely has a chance to be standard, like Celebi from the 2nd to 3rd gen change.

If that were to happen, Latios would generally run an attacking CG set, and Latias would be more supportive due to (Heal) Wish. Latias would be harder to take down because Ice Beams that 2HKO Latios are generally a 3HKO on Latias
 
I like to think that all Pokemon, whether speculated as uber or not will be allowed during the 'testing phazes' of D/P competitive, and then will only be banned/classed as uber as soon as it becomes apparent they are too powerful.
 
Just no.

Think something like this, CG Meteoric Swram 1HKO's the living shit out of 80% of the pokemon's out there.

If theres any Uber that has a remote chance of droping into OU it would have to be Deoxys-E and its really not happening anytime soon either.
 
You know Jump's calculations for AG Salamence? If you don't, I'm not going to post them - Jump can if he wants - but I will say that the numbers generated are nigh ridiculous. Latios is so much better than special Salamence on pretty much all levels that it's not even funny. Simply put, Latios and Latias are simply too good; I realize Game Freak doesn't recognize this, but it will become readily apparently that Latis are even better in DP than they are in Advance (Dragon Pulse alone should make this point), and there really is nothing to discuss that hasn't been discussed 10,000 times in Advance.
 
Ok..
AGset gets walled by Blissey. Latios' SA is only slightly higher than 1.1x of Mence's. It seems more powerful, but also more threatened.

Besides, if Celebi was uber in GSC and became standard in Adv where it learned Swords Dance and Calm Mind, I don't see why Lati@s don't get a chance
 
Jibaku said:
Ok..
AGset gets walled by Blissey. Latios' SA is only slightly higher than 1.1x of Mence's. It seems more powerful, but also more threatened.

Besides, if Celebi was uber in GSC and became standard in Adv where it learned Swords Dance and Calm Mind, I don't see why Lati@s don't get a chance
Click to expand...

But how will you know that the Latios is an AG'er and not something like a Dragon Dancer???

and if you know cuz he already used MeteorS then he already KO'ed something and it has serverd its purpose.
 
Dragon Dancer set is hard to play with and isn't gonna hurt like Salamence.

Switch Blissey in. If it's a DDer, go and run off to Cresselia and wall it. Or you could Thunder Wave it and mess it up.

Double Dragon Danced STAB Dragon Claws does less than 50%. You can set up a Reflect there. At absolute max SA, Beam does 49%-58% to HP/SDefless Latios. Even if it did have Special Defense/HP it probably isn't gonna stay in to try and recoverstall you.

And the Dragon Dancer set is completely messed up by Metagross/Tyranitar. If it doesn't have a special move, Skarmory walls it.

After you Reflect, you're free to switch into Heracross, unless it's carrying Reminiscent Headbutt/lol Aerial Ace/Psychic. If it has 3 attacking moves, it has no recovery
 
Jibaku said:
Ok..
AGset gets walled by Blissey. Latios' SA is only slightly higher than 1.1x of Mence's. It seems more powerful, but also more threatened.

Besides, if Celebi was uber in GSC and became standard in Adv where it learned Swords Dance and Calm Mind, I don't see why Lati@s don't get a chance
Click to expand...

I can agree, I don't see anything wrong with testing them, There's no reason to rush to create the Diamond and Pearl meta game because it's going to be around for years to come.

Wasn't there someone that suggested that EVERYTHING in D/P be tested? Regardless of people's theory's of which pokemon should be in Uber's, OU, BL,UU,NU, etc,etc,etc. Everything that is uber or not will be found out quicky in the testing period.
 
Umm, Jibaku, Latios' SA is greater than 10% more. Mence maxes at 350, Latios at 394, and that is without CM or Soul Dew. It has 20 Base more, which translates to 40 points, 44 with boosting nature. Its the difference between Rhydon and Golem's attack power.

The Lati's got banned from Advance because about the only remotely non-uber counter they had was Tyranitar. This statement is still mostly true in DP. As much as some are orgasming with this "free-for-all in DP" thing, I give Mewtwo, Mew, The Latis, Lugs/Ho-Oh, Kyodonaza, Diakiatina, Arceuraymin, and the Deoxys forms one week before ban.
 
Latios' SA = 12.57142% higher than Salamence.

Also let's look at these:
- Meteoric Swarming Choice Glasses Salamence is only walled by Blissey and Empoleon, or prediction, or Cresselias with insane amounts of special defense (which means you lose the OHKO on Landshark or some Defense)
- Tail Glow Manaphy is only walled by 2 pokemon: Calm Mind Raikou and CMBolt Blissey
- Schemepassing Togekiss is only countered by Zapdos
- AGNite has no counters besides prediction, and once again a Cresselia with insane SD amount
- CBTar has no counters besides prediction AND it gets Pursuit
 
Jibaku said:
Latios' SA = 12.57142% higher than Salamence.

Also let's look at these:
- Meteoric Swarming Choice Glasses Salamence is only walled by Blissey and Empoleon, or prediction, or Cresselias with insane amounts of special defense (which means you lose the OHKO on Landshark or some Defense)
- Tail Glow Manaphy is only walled by 2 pokemon: Calm Mind Raikou and CMBolt Blissey
- Schemepassing Togekiss is only countered by Zapdos
- AGNite has no counters besides prediction, and once again a Cresselia with insane SD amount
- CBTar has no counters besides prediction AND it gets Pursuit
Click to expand...

Manaphy: Mediocre stat distribution (all 100s is fine, except when stuff like Starmie can Tbolt you before you move). Nite/Mence/TTar: 4x weaks.

And wouldn't a Schemepassing Togekiss pretty much by default be uncounterable since it could BP out on anything slower? It has the same problems as Tail Glow Manaphy, save for the fact is has more SA, but is slower and has worse weaks.
 
Even if they have 4x weaks they can find a switch in and basically wreck teams from there.

TTar switches into Blissey!
Blissey used Softboiled!

Blissey attempts to return back to it's pokeball!

TTar used Pursuit!
(66% damage)
 
Jibaku said:
Latios' SA = 12.57142% higher than Salamence.

Also let's look at these:
- Meteoric Swarming Choice Glasses Salamence is only walled by Blissey and Empoleon, or prediction, or Cresselias with insane amounts of special defense (which means you lose the OHKO on Landshark or some Defense)
- Tail Glow Manaphy is only walled by 2 pokemon: Calm Mind Raikou and CMBolt Blissey
- Schemepassing Togekiss is only countered by Zapdos
- AGNite has no counters besides prediction, and once again a Cresselia with insane SD amount
- CBTar has no counters besides prediction AND it gets Pursuit
Click to expand...

This is EXACTLY my point. There is so much stuff out there you can't possibly cover it all, you need a strategy with your team not just standards. I mean, how could you possibly predict Infernape's moveset, it has so many and if you guess the wrong one he could possibly OHKO at least half your team. Or a Gyarados who get's a Dragon Dance in is rediculously hard to take down this generation, you cant send in a fast electric because it gets earthquaked and not much else walls it. I've faced Lati@s on a few occasions on Netbattle, yes they were annoying to take down, but no more than SkarmBliss. That's why I've had a hard time understanding the automatic "NO" the Latis get.

EDIT: On a side note, maybe it would be interesting to have a side metagame based on Battle Tower Rules, with different items on each Poke and the Lati's allowed. Probably could only be done on WiFi though, since there wouldn't be perfect 31 IV's.
 
Jibaku said:
Even if they have 4x weaks they can find a switch in and basically wreck teams from there
Click to expand...

Except of course if they kill something, then encounter something which makes them flee. Meanwhile, Lati@s both have 110 Base speed, and 80/80/110(os) or 80/90/130(as) defenses. Soul Dew makes them more ass.

Look, I understand why some people think DP is this grand new era where we need to forget advance and test everything before we derive whether it is still broken or not, but absolutely nothing has led me to believe Lati@s are any less broken. Heck, ADV 80 BP Dragon Claw got an INCREASE in power to Dragon Pulse's 90. Then there's Metoric Swarm. These guys do the same or more damage than Mence, are faster, and don't have the nasty 4x weaks, and additionally resist Thunderbolt.

Guess what happens when TTar switches in to Lati@s this gen? It eats a big fat Grass Rope or HP Fite, the former 2HKO'ing always even on a Latias with only 319 SA on Boahtar, and HP Fite OHKO nearly always on CBTar. After a Calm Mind or with Soul Dew? GFG on both counts.

People can keep shouting DP IS NEW EVERYTHING WE KNEW ABOUT ADVANCE IS TRASH TEST OUT EVERYTHING, but I give Competitor a week before we start having Ubers/legends for ban topics.
 
You see, Tail Glow manaphy, Schemepassing Toge, AGnite, and CBtar ALL CAN BE REVENGE KILLED but something as hefty as Latias can take damage like nothing, and dish back some more.
 
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