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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I like Hydreigon because of his useful STAB Dark Pulse, helps defeat FerroCent. His Flamethrower/Fire Blast is also nice because it hits things such as Ferrothorn, Scizor, Bronzong and Skarmory harder than Lati@s HP Fire. Although the Fighting weakness opposed to a resistance is kind of annoying :/
I'll say it once and i'll say it again.
In any given situation where i really NEEDED latios, i inevitably found it to be dead because of pursuit, which i couldn't stop from happening. If i surfed on the switch, my foe used deathbait. Then he pursuited.
Latios and hydreigon have the ability to generally always kill a pokemon. Latios, however, does not have the ability to emerge from this situation alive. Hydreigon does.
In any given situation where i really NEEDED latios, i inevitably found it to be dead because of pursuit, which i couldn't stop from happening. If i surfed on the switch, my foe used deathbait. Then he pursuited.
Latios and hydreigon have the ability to generally always kill a pokemon. Latios, however, does not have the ability to emerge from this situation alive. Hydreigon does.
Yea, I agree with IcyMan28 and tehy - Latios's biggest advantage is his Speed to check powerful threats like Terrakion and Infernape. If it wasn't for that, I'd prefer Hydreigon, whose sweep wont be cut short by Ttar / Scizor / Escavalier - unless Latios is meant to bait Pursuiters so that other Pursuit-weak monsters like Reuniclus can sweep later on.
Sounds good, but RestTalk Gyarados sucks imo. With the new sleep mechanic, Rest would only save Gyarados once before Rotom-W switches in and forces it out - it would never wake up. Plus, Rest-Talk Gyarados tends to be set-up fodder. I personally feel Taunt is manditory on bulky Gyarados, because it disrupts set-up and entry hazards, as well as even break stall. Then you have Dragon Tail / Roar for phazing, T-Wave for paralysis, Avalanche to finish off pesky Dragonites, Haxorus, and Latias, Stone-Edge for Volcarona / Gyarados etc. The first three moves work really well in conjunction with Taunt. You can possibly run Rest with Aromatherapy / Heal Bell support, but I wouldn't waste a slot on Sleep Talk - since it really restricts Gyarados's utility. Wish, Heal Wish, Rapid Spin, or even Rain support is helpful for Gyarados.
WoodChuck said:
Sounds good, but RestTalk Gyarados sucks imo. With the new sleep mechanic, Rest would only save Gyarados once before Rotom-W switches in and forces it out - it would never wake up. Plus, Rest-Talk Gyarados tends to be set-up fodder. I personally feel Taunt is manditory on bulky Gyarados, because it disrupts set-up and entry hazards, as well as even break stall. Then you have Dragon Tail / Roar for phazing, T-Wave for paralysis, Avalanche to finish off pesky Dragonites, Haxorus, and Latias, Stone-Edge for Volcarona / Gyarados etc. The first three moves work really well in conjunction with Taunt. You can possibly run Rest with Aromatherapy / Heal Bell support, but I wouldn't waste a slot on Sleep Talk - since it really restricts Gyarados's utility. Wish, Heal Wish, Rapid Spin, or even Rain support is helpful for Gyarados.
Does wall-breaking Hydreigon have a move slot to use Taunt? It would need:
~ Earthquake / Focus Blast to break through Ttar and Heatran
~ Fire Blast for other Steels
~ Draco Meteor / Outrage - former for power, latter for Special Sponge
~ Dark Pulse / Crunch - latter for Special Sponge.
I guess Taunt can be replaced over its Dark STAB
~ Earthquake / Focus Blast to break through Ttar and Heatran
~ Fire Blast for other Steels
~ Draco Meteor / Outrage - former for power, latter for Special Sponge
~ Dark Pulse / Crunch - latter for Special Sponge.
I guess Taunt can be replaced over its Dark STAB
Meanwhile Dragon Tail forces Skarm out, taking into account hazards and a boosted Haxorus, it means you've got a bit of momentum until Dragon Tail misses (which it will) or your opponent thinks of a better way of dealing with Haxorus (not that hard but still).
I have an idea for a latios set, most likely it's a bad one, but it could work.
Double Psychic
Latios @ Choice Specs
Modest
Levitate
252 SpA/252 Spe/4 HP
-Trick
-Grass Knot
-Hidden Power Fire
-Draco Meteor
The idea behind this set is that whatever counters your Latios is what counters your Reuniclus or your Alakazam or your Beeheeyem or your SpA Metagross (Hey, I don't judge.) As such, you identify on Team Preview what your opponent's likely Latios check is, then cripple it with the move of choice. Trick handles Chansey, SDef Rachi, and Blissey, while Grass Knot will always 2hko Tyranitar (assuming you haven't tricked.) HP fire absolutely eats excavalier and Scizor, and if you're still alive at the end, you can hammer away with draco meteor.
Double Psychic
Latios @ Choice Specs
Modest
Levitate
252 SpA/252 Spe/4 HP
-Trick
-Grass Knot
-Hidden Power Fire
-Draco Meteor
The idea behind this set is that whatever counters your Latios is what counters your Reuniclus or your Alakazam or your Beeheeyem or your SpA Metagross (Hey, I don't judge.) As such, you identify on Team Preview what your opponent's likely Latios check is, then cripple it with the move of choice. Trick handles Chansey, SDef Rachi, and Blissey, while Grass Knot will always 2hko Tyranitar (assuming you haven't tricked.) HP fire absolutely eats excavalier and Scizor, and if you're still alive at the end, you can hammer away with draco meteor.
I've used Draco Meteor / Flamethrower / Earthquake / Taunt with rash and it works well. Dark stab loses on just Reuniclus because you can just taunt Jellicent to stop it from recovering / statusing. Just gotta throw in a Scizor or something for clus. Taunt is what makes the set work; Blissey takes a DM and now it can't recover. Rinse and repeat until it gets KOd
Specs Surf v. 252/252 + Tar- 37.1-44.1%
Grass Knot- 47-55.4%
So hes using it to 2hko Tyranitar probably.
As a Blissey user I find a U-Turn on the switch more annoying then Taunt. Between sand/hail and the attack damage you get forced out with about the same health you would have after being hit by a Meteor but there is no chance to wear Hydreigon down with Toxic/Seismic Toss/Ice Beam.
A little more power, which helps score ko's.
Since i often have up variable amounts of hazards and have done variable amounts of damage to tyranitar, i can't cite any calcs that say "Oh when this happens then this happens."
But i don't care about heatran and i prefer to do extra damage to him.
I've found Latios extremely unimpressive for a long time. He's walled by many common things and basically kills momentum and almost causes one of your pokemon to be sacked thanks to dracometeorspam, which doesn't do very well currently IMO. Hydriegon will always be more threatening to me, because he has a much wider movepool and overall versatility, and doesn't run the same goddamn set all the time like Latios.
I've found those annoying if they have a third mon to take ghost attacks. But Chandelure rapes that core. I don't have problems with them usually, they seem redundant to me.
I've found those annoying if they have a third mon to take ghost attacks. But Chandelure rapes that core. I don't have problems with them usually, they seem redundant to me.
I hope he was talking about SubLure, because Latios had no business challenging it.
Scarf Chandy outspeeds.
This question has been overlooked, but the only playstyle that is extremely difficult to run IMO is hyper offense. (see: shrang's post.)
Full stall also has a ton of pokemon that stop it cold like SD Taunt Gliscor, so the best teams right now are either bulky offense or balanced. semistall is a myth >.< Neither of these team archetypes care so much about Excadrill screwing over of the speed tiers, and they can handle the loss of momentum that is often required when checking or countering a lot of the top OU threats, as well as being able to hit hard back when needed.
As for the best weather, that's up to debate, but Sun teams are better than ever with all of the
I've tried out a team with the Resttalk Gyarados + Hitmontop core. I haven't played too many battles with it (but I've won all of them 9.9) but as I have Heal Bell on my team I haven't used Sleep Talk once. Perhaps I'll change it to Taunt or Twave but I don't want to put all of the burden of Gyarados's recovery on either Wish or keeping Heal Bell alive as Gyarados is essentially dead weight if my Heal Beller dies. I've been avoiding using Sleep Talk, but I can't help but think I'll need it eventually in some clutch situation.
Nah it's actually one of the most effective, just simple screener and 5 sweepers, and I've gotten pretty far on the ladder with it. This is because of the crazy new sweepers like TR Reuniclus and Volcarona that are impossible to conserve checks for (try keeping Scizor alive when it needs to check something like Jirachi or Tornadus under screens) Since Excadrill sets up nowhere it is manageable as long as you have stuff that can survive its attacks (reuniclus for example) and priority. Teams that run stuff like Ferrothorn and Gliscor as their only defenses are pretty much killed. Not to mention the fact that scarfers are really uncommon. The things that do give heavy offense problems are multiscale which is a total pain in the ass and excessive priority / status which can be worked around with teambuilding.
Sun does wreck weatherless though, especially if you've got stuff like Dugtrio or surprise EQ Venusaur to catch Heatran since alot of teams go "well I've got Heatran I beat every sun team now"
Thanks for your input on Mix Hydreigon, Eggbert~
Yea, I think heavy offense is one of the more effective team archetypes of this gen. DragMag is essentially heavy offense. And yea, I agree - Sun is brutal if you don't have a weather changer. There aren't as many effective Fire Absorbers as there are Rain Absorbers (Jellicent, Gastrodon, Toxicroak, Vaporeon), and Fire mons can easily blast through Resists
A switches in Heatran
B's Infernape uses Close Combat - A's Heatran fainted, gg!
Has anyone tried Substitute on Excadrill? If Excadrill can keep a Sub intact, it would be shielded from priority / ScarfToed, allowing it to take one more thing down in exchange for a broken Substitute. On the flip side, it may be simply draining crucial health, bringing it closer to priority KO range.
Yea, I think heavy offense is one of the more effective team archetypes of this gen. DragMag is essentially heavy offense. And yea, I agree - Sun is brutal if you don't have a weather changer. There aren't as many effective Fire Absorbers as there are Rain Absorbers (Jellicent, Gastrodon, Toxicroak, Vaporeon), and Fire mons can easily blast through Resists
A switches in Heatran
B's Infernape uses Close Combat - A's Heatran fainted, gg!
Has anyone tried Substitute on Excadrill? If Excadrill can keep a Sub intact, it would be shielded from priority / ScarfToed, allowing it to take one more thing down in exchange for a broken Substitute. On the flip side, it may be simply draining crucial health, bringing it closer to priority KO range.
It's sad if people right off Sun that quickly. It's probably not as good as the other weathers (CM Ninetails is a boss but it can't touch Tyranitar since they're all Sp Def now) but if you're not facing Stall or another weather Infernape and Volcarona are most likely running through your opponent.
And on a semi-related point, has anyone else noticed how standardized this meta's becomng? Everyone and their grandma runs a Gliscor(the few that don't have a Skarmory or Bronzong), just about all Tyranitar are Specially Defensive(we know all Jirachi are) and Ferrothorn is basically omnipresent. I'm not saying ban Excadrill and Latios (there's no need but they are the reason the first three are used so much) but it makes playing OU somewhat stale when so many people basically start running the same team. Sand is almost completely cut and paste and I can't count how many times I've seen Politoed/Thundurus/Toxicroak and/or Tentacruel/Jirachi/filler in team preview. I don't like ranting too much in forums but come on.
@Pocket Sub+Balloon might find some use if you could get around the Excadrill counter that is on the opposing team but since most Excadrill are LO now(and therefore that much more Gliscor-weak) with Sub you're killing you're pokemon before your opponent gets a chance.
There are a few problems with Sub Excadrill that pretty much overrule the benefits.
1. Excadrill is virtually immune to status. It's immune to Thunder Wave and Toxic and knows better than to come in on a Will-o-Wisper anyways.
2. If Excadrill is running Sub, that means it pretty much can't run Life Orb which means it doesn't hit nearly as hard. Example: Ferrothorn can now check it with Power Whip as Earthquake fails to OHKO unboosted.
3. Excadrill is almost always better off just throwing out an attack or Swords Dancing.
4. Excadrill won't hit stuff like Virizion very well at all as it only has SlideQuake coverage, and it has no shot against things like Hydreigon which it actually fails to OHKO with Rock Slide without Life Orb iirc.
Excadrill just plain has better things to do than run Sub. When will you get a chance to set up and make it worthwhile? Even CB Scizor breaks your sub with Bullet Punch. No one is really statusing you thanks to the Ground/Steel typing.
EDIT:
Oh, and one more thing: Creativity helps, not hinders, as standards are prepared for more.
1. Excadrill is virtually immune to status. It's immune to Thunder Wave and Toxic and knows better than to come in on a Will-o-Wisper anyways.
2. If Excadrill is running Sub, that means it pretty much can't run Life Orb which means it doesn't hit nearly as hard. Example: Ferrothorn can now check it with Power Whip as Earthquake fails to OHKO unboosted.
3. Excadrill is almost always better off just throwing out an attack or Swords Dancing.
4. Excadrill won't hit stuff like Virizion very well at all as it only has SlideQuake coverage, and it has no shot against things like Hydreigon which it actually fails to OHKO with Rock Slide without Life Orb iirc.
Excadrill just plain has better things to do than run Sub. When will you get a chance to set up and make it worthwhile? Even CB Scizor breaks your sub with Bullet Punch. No one is really statusing you thanks to the Ground/Steel typing.
EDIT:
That's true but there is still room for creative teams to do well. I make a point of having at least one unorthodox set/pokemon/move on every team and I regularly make 1250+. (maybe I should stick it out and take the time to ladder but for me discussing the game might be more fun than playing it. Am I weird? idk) I honestly think that halting the suspect testing process was good for the metagame because it gave people more time to adapt to threats and also gave them more time to be bored enough and use different teams. This, along with the #dreamworld challenge, is helping to diversify player strategies a bit more as people have more time to experiment rather than "RUSH RUSH SPAM STANDARD TEAM TO REACH REQS"
Oh, and one more thing: Creativity helps, not hinders, as standards are prepared for more.
Draco Meteor
Crunch
Focus Blast/Fire Blast
Taunt
Mixed Hydreigon is too weak physically for Earthquake anyway. It has base 105 Attack and all, but you want far more Sp.Attack than Attack. Crunch is only good because it gets STAB on it allowing it to force through Blissey & Jellicent. (Doesn't fear WoW due to taunt.) Pretty sure Draco Meteor does far more to Tyranitar than Earthquake anyway. Focus Blast is ideal but unreliable, so unless Heatran if that big of an issue, use Fire Blast.
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