np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

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I'm gonna repeat this again because it was conveniently ignored:

"SR would be "equal" if it dealt constant damage to all types, it was one of many elemental rocks, it took more than one step to set-up, rapid spin is a TM or it didn't deal so much damage in the first place seeing how its an entry hazard."

Keeping SR is wrong, and the arguments being made to defend it are sentimental. SR doesn't keep certain pokemon in line, it keeps (almost) entire types out of play. If a pokemon is uber without it then it will go the way of the rest who were voted uber in this very topics and that's that.

"Enjoying" something broken is not an argument either, otherwise I'm sure people would have loved minimize, snow cloak/sand veil + bright powder, speed boost blaziken, moody, etc. to be here in OU.

People are repeating the words "Dragonite" and "Volcarona" a lot here so let me add my 2 cents since I've been using these 2 pokemons since I entered smogon:

1) Dragonite at +2 Outrage with adamant and max attack fails to OHKO Gliscor. At +1 it also fails against Porygon2, Evo Chansey, Tangrowth and a lot of Conks. Mamoswine almost always kills it with Ice Shard and a life orb, while Cloyster with a focus sash will take care of dragonite even it had +6 Atk. Not to mention Scarf Latios will come in at a +1 Nite and destroy it.

2) Volca at +2 with HP ground barely 2HKO tentacruel while taking much more with Jellicent. Blissey completely makes a joke out of it, as does Gastrodon. Terrakion with a choice scarf destroys because if somehow you manage to get a stone edge miss, +1 HP ground fails to OHKO it anyway. Gyrados does a number on it as well, and Porygon2 loves Volca where it can paralyze it and then you can choose a random Rock move user to finish it off. Not to mention Drill in the Sand makes it go bye bye, and even if you had a sash the flinch rate would probably get you first. Landrous also fails to get OHKO by any neutral +1 attack it has.


Do I really need to go on?
 
haha ok. Without stealth rock you are killing the viability of stall! look at that! that's more than charizard and yanmega. (also dragonite because it would probably be voted uber) none of the pokemon you list are even that reliable against it (chansey, conkeldurr) and having to slap a p2 on your team just to 2hko it (not reliable!) with ice beam is a joke.

Chesto rest volcarona bests any bulky water without roar. And blissey. And chansey.

Also without stealth rock, I can make a team with 6 fliers with focus sash. love to face that!
 
X5Dragon said:
I'm gonna repeat this again because it was conveniently ignored:

"SR would be "equal" if it dealt constant damage to all types, it was one of many elemental rocks, it took more than one step to set-up, rapid spin is a TM or it didn't deal so much damage in the first place seeing how its an entry hazard."

Keeping SR is ridiculous, and the arguments being made to defend it are hilarious. SR doesn't keep certain pokemon in line, it keeps (almost) entire types out of play. If a pokemon is uber without it then it will go the way of the rest who were voted uber in this very topics and that's that.

"Enjoying" something broken is not an argument either, otherwise I'm sure people would have loved minimize, snow cloak/sand veil + bright powder, speed boost blaziken, moody, etc. to be here in OU.

People are repeating the words "Dragonite" and "Volcarona" a lot here so let me add my 2 cents since I've been using these 2 pokemons since I entered smogon:

1) Dragonite at +2 Outrage with adamant and max attack fails to OHKO Gliscor. At +1 it also fails against Porygon2, Evo Chansey, Tangrowth and a lot of Conks. Mamoswine almost always kills it with Ice Shard and a life orb, while Cloyster with a focus sash will take care of dragonite even it had +6 Atk. Not to mention Scarf Latios will come in at a +1 Nite and destroy it.

2) Volca at +2 with HP ground barely 2HKO tentacruel while taking much more with Jellicent. Blissey completely makes a joke out of it, as does Gastrodon. Terrakion with a choice scarf destroys because if somehow you manage to get a stone edge miss, HP ground fails to OHKO it anyway. Gyrados does a number on it as well, and Porygon2 loves Volca where it can paralyze it and then you can choose a random Rock move user to finish it off.


Do I really need to go on?
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You blame us of making terrible arguements and then you use a terrible arguement yourself...?

My outrage has failed to ohko your gliscor. What are you going to do back? Ice fang? Multi scale means I only take like 40%. Dragonite doesn't only have a DD Set, by the way. LO Mixnite can use superpower and beat the almost nonexistant porygon2, and Evo Chansey. Tangrowth is beaten by Rain Mixnite's hurricane, as is Conk. DD isn't the only fucking set.

Volcarona? Not beat Jellicent? Not beat Gastrodon? What?

Run that with fucking sun and you have the real deal. Tentacruel does about 30% ish with scald and volca can just qd in it's face. Jellicent is set up fodder unless it has taunt, and then it's still muscled through by Bug Buzz. BUG BUZZ. A FUCKING RESIST. Blissey and Terrakion I'll give you, but that's about it. Gyarados is also a counter, but it's shaky since it can be beaten by hp rock. Oh, and Volcarona also gets chesto rest to beat P2 so that's not a valid point.
 
Actually, blissey doesn't beat volcorona's chesto rest set. To be honest, blissey doesn't really beat anything.
 
T.TNT is completely right; banning Stealth Rock is just completely ridiculous. As T.TNT stated there are other sets besides the ones you mentioned. I noticed that your arguments for Dragonite and Volcarona being "easy" to beat without Stealth Rock revolve around the assumption that everyone uses the sets that you use on your team. This is obviously not the case, and thus, your argument is invalid.
 
The prospect of Stealth Rock being broken has been brought up many times in the past. I'm not in the mood to quote or summarize any specific about the idea of banning it, so just glance at this thread, which only lasted two pages before most of us (and the moderator) agreed to many things about Stealth Rock. It's an essential part of the metagame, and it would be confusing as to why we're considering banning Stealth Rock when it's existed for five years. This is just like the whole fiasco with Dragonite a few tens-of-pages back...

The idea's been brought up, been brushed off, and debating here would mean redundant arguments allover.
 
If entry hazards overall did only half as much damage as they currently do, that would be super duper fine by me (Tspikes, of course, being the exception)
 
My outrage has failed to ohko your gliscor. What are you going to do back? Ice fang? Multi scale means I only take like 40%. Dragonite doesn't only have a DD Set, by the way. LO Mixnite can use superpower and beat the almost nonexistant porygon2, and Evo Chansey. Tangrowth is beaten by Rain Mixnite's hurricane, as is Conk. DD isn't the only fucking set.
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The point is that whatever Nite set you use, you will get walled by something.

Volcarona? Not beat Jellicent? Not beat Gastrodon? What?
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Seriously, your schooling me about bad arguments and your doing this? Jellicent and Gastrodon finish off Volcarona before he does anything meaningful. A combination of Toxic + Recover plus their natural bulk will make you gasp for breathes as you struggle to score 50% hits after +2.
Blissey and Terrakion I'll give you, but that's about it. Gyarados is also a counter, but it's shaky since it can be beaten by hp rock.
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But then you get walled by Heatran.


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alphatron Actually, blissey doesn't beat volcorona's chesto rest set. To be honest, blissey doesn't really beat anything.
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Seismic Toss + Soft Boiled will kill you before you reach +5 or +6 necessary to finish it off.


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AccidentalGreed The prospect of Stealth Rock being broken has been brought up many times in the past. I'm not in the mood to quote or summarize any specific about the idea of banning it, so just glance at this thread, which only lasted two pages before most of us (and the moderator) agreed to many things about Stealth Rock. It's an essential part of the metagame, and it would be confusing as to why we're considering banning Stealth Rock when it's existed for five years. This is just like the whole fiasco with Dragonite a few tens-of-pages back...
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All I'm seeing in that thread is "it balances the metagame because it takes cares of a D-Nite and Volca, Yanmega and Zapodos are not important and this debate is so last gen".

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haha ok. Without stealth rock you are killing the viability of stall!
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Stall is defined by setting LAYERS of Toxic Spikes, Spikes, Toxic, Paralysis, Burns, Roars and Whirlwinds and switching constantly into relevant walls (Skarmpiss core) as you chip away their health slowly while using recovery moves and relevant weather (optional) to hinder their options further. SR would be like a last minute salt throw to stall teams.



Also without stealth rock, I can make a team with 6 fliers with focus sash. love to face that!
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I'd make a team with sash Cloyster and proceed to take half your team!


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I'm gonna repeat this again because it was conveniently ignored:

"SR would be "equal" if it dealt constant damage to all types, it was one of many elemental rocks, it took more than one step to set-up, rapid spin is a TM or it didn't deal so much damage in the first place seeing how its an entry hazard."
 
alphatron said:
Actually, blissey doesn't beat volcorona's chesto rest set. To be honest, blissey doesn't really beat anything.
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Just saying that if Volcarona has Sub or Blissey lacks Toxic Volcarona wins. A special sweeper beating the second best special wall in the game (Chansey's defenses are higher and leftovers doesn't mean crap when you have Softboiled) is pretty impressive.

Mario With Lasers said:
Blahblahblah Dragon typing is broken because it's better than Ice who the fuck cares let's move on.
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Wanna know something sad? Replace "Dragon" with SR and replace "better than Ice" with beating my Flying types and you essentially have this entire page of "debate."

And for the record, if we ban Stealth Rock (and move Dragonite and Volcarona that much closer to Ubers) then we should ban all of Excadrill's counters. You know, to level the playing field.
 
Lol @ everyone who thinks Stealth Rocks is broken. Yeah, it means that noobs can't use their Articunos and Bellyzards anymore. Whoop Dee Doo! Better than having Dragonite, Thundurus, and Volcorona even more difficult to handle than before. Stealth Rocks improves the health of the metagame.
 
New World Order said:
Lol @ everyone who thinks Stealth Rocks is broken. Yeah, it means that noobs can't use their Articunos and Bellyzards anymore. Whoop Dee Doo! Better than having Dragonite, Thundurus, and Volcorona even more difficult to handle than before. Stealth Rocks improves the health of the metagame.
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Guess I'm inb4 another "Ubers check Ubers" rant. JK, but it's odd how you assume people want to ban certain parts of the meta when the pokemon they want to use are weak to it, and then someone flat out admits they're mad because they can't run 6 bird teams like the in-game nubz do. People complaining about SR reminds me of how I wanted Excadrill banned before I discovered Conkeldurr, good times.
 
New World Order said:
Speaking of Excadrill, man this thing has not delivered its pre B/W hype. There's just so many things in the metagame that can check it.
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You're kidding, right? I mean, sure, Pokemon such as Skarmory, Gliscor, etc. counter it and some priority users check it (remember, even Conkeldurr has to wait until it's at around 65% to be able to finish it off) but it's still one of the best offensive Pokemon B/W has to offer.
 
Blightbringer said:
You're kidding, right? I mean, sure, Pokemon such as Skarmory, Gliscor, etc. counter it and some priority users check it (remember, even Conkeldurr has to wait until it's at around 65% to be able to finish it off) but it's still one of the best offensive Pokemon B/W has to offer.
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Agreed. Excadrill is still difficult to beat; if Gliscor gets lured in and ko'd, Excadrill can basically devastate teams by itself. Also, mainly all Skarm can do is Whirlwind, it's not really that much of a counter. Brave Bird does some damage, but Rock Slide's flinch chance should not be underestimated, especially win it can do quite a bit of damage after a couple SD's.
 
Blightbringer said:
You're kidding, right? I mean, sure, Pokemon such as Skarmory, Gliscor, etc. counter it and some priority users check it (remember, even Conkeldurr has to wait until it's at around 65% to be able to finish it off) but it's still one of the best offensive Pokemon B/W has to offer.
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Bronzong, Air Balloon Terrakion, Azumarill, Lucario, Hitmontop, Techniloom in DW. Ninetails/ Politoed deserve some special mention as well.

Depending on the set, it gets some more checks. Air Balloon variants lose to Rotom-W, those that lack X-Scissors lose to Celebi, those that lack Return lose to Landorus.

I'm not saying Excadrill's a bad pokemon. In fact, I think its the 4th most dangerous pokemon in the game (Dragonite, Thundurus, Reuniclus being top 3). But it just isn't nearly as dominant as before, in fact, you usually need to pair it with another good power hitter like Landorus/ Terrakion/ Lucario for it to function at maximum.
 
Speaking of Lucario, it should be used more, especially the Swords Dance set. With Air Balloon it can defeat Excadrill and set up a free Swords Dance on the likes of Bronzong and Gliscor. It's especially useful due to the presence of Outraging dragons, especially DD Lum Dragonite who becomes set up fodder for Lucario, who can then proceed to ko back with Extremespeed assuming Dragonite is weakened enough. Just weaken the opponent's Skarmorys, Bronzongs, etc. and Lucario becomes an extremeley potent threat with Air Balloon.
 
hahahah this reminds me when I was running LO Adamant Excadrill with a fuckload of Spikes and Gravity for sheer lols. God that was so much fun

and yeah I guess it has a few counters.
Skarmory is a bit risky nowadays as a lot are running Shed Shell which means LO Adamant can do around 50% after a SD (at least that was what I was doing). Either way, it can sure as hell flinch hax you out.
Gliscor is prolly the best check but has to watch out for a +2 Return so I guess it needs to stay high on health.
Celebi counters versions with X Scissor but personaly id never ever run a team with just Celebi as my Excadrill counter as its 50/50 whether they have X Scissor.
Terrakion cannot get any damage on it other wise it loses its balloon and therefor its ability to counter.
Bronzong is remains a solid option
Azumarril takes a lot from a Earthquake, and iirc I don't think Aqua Jet has a 100% chance to KO (correct me if I am wrong tho)
Lucario needs an air balloon and no prior damage
Hitmontops pretty good I guess
Ninetales and Politoed are good as they remove the weather that makes it tough to revenge kill. The initial problem however is that both don't really enjoy switching into an Excadrills Earthquake and from personal experience, you don't just want Politoed to be your Excadrill check as it puts you at such a disadvantage when your opponent knows that you need to first switch in Politoed and then switch out (unless your scarfed) to something that can outspeed and survive an Earthquake.

Note that im not saying Excadrill is broken, however it does 'nt have as many counters as people make out. Also note that pretty much everything gets screwed by a +2 RS flinch that happens far to often for my liking -_-
 
TheMasterOfOz said:
Speaking of Lucario, it should be used more, especially the Swords Dance set. With Air Balloon it can defeat Excadrill and set up a free Swords Dance on the likes of Bronzong and Gliscor. It's especially useful due to the presence of Outraging dragons, especially DD Lum Dragonite who becomes set up fodder for Lucario, who can then proceed to ko back with Extremespeed assuming Dragonite is weakened enough. Just weaken the opponent's Skarmorys, Bronzongs, etc. and Lucario becomes an extremeley potent threat with Air Balloon.
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Misses too many KOs to my liking with Air Balloon. But yeah, Lucario is WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY underused. Its not like its predictable either, since if you assume SD and switch into an NP, you're in for a world of hurt.
 
For players running Drizzle - a funny fail-proof check for Excadrill - ScarfMagnezone with HP Water.

Rain-boosted HP Water from Timid Magnezone: 90-106% to Excadrill, a 53% chance to OHKO with SR.

Magnezone goes in and comes out with the kill.
 
LOL. but now it cant do shit to ferrothorn.

and azumarill has 99 chance to OHKO with aquajet.
you faint next turn because of lo recoil.
 
Mario With Lasers said:
How's Zone getting in on Excadrill under Rain again ?__?
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It's a revenge killer, not a Gliscor; you win the weather war and snipe Excadrill down. However, I guess Excadrill can be revenge killed by anything if you win the weather war... :x

Players do sometimes switch their Excadrill into stuff like Jirachi even while its raining, so it's still a good way to dispatch Excadrill in your favorable weather before the opponent gets a chance to bring in Ttar, thereby eliminating their major offense without much hassle.
 
excadrill isnt that weak, defense wise. it actually has SOME BULK with its high hp stat.

i lol'ed when i saw a specially defensive excadrill on a Uber analysis on the Smog. defensive excadrill lol.
 
Running hp water zone just to counter exca is a waste IMO.You won't be trapping any skarms with all these shed shell variants running around and you lose coverage on the one of the two pokes you effectively trap(the other being Forry).I'd rather use duggy to revenge kill exca outside ss since he covers more stuff and isn't a deadweight.He can help you win the weather war as well as trapping and revenge killing other pokes.He can also set up SR if you want.

EDIT:Obviously the main reason it can check and revenge kill more pokes than zone is that it's trapping ability,unlike zone,isn't restricted to trapping pokes of a single type.Flying types aren't that threatening except Nite,Thundurus,Tornadus and maybe Gyara.Nite can be stopped by a scarfer,ice sharder,etc. While the Gyara is revenge killed by Scarfrotom,Scarflandorus and checked by Ferrothorn.Duggy can easily revenge kill the other two if it has Stone edge. Sucker Punch is pretty usefull at times.
 
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