np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[New World Order]

Retesting of Deoxys-N: Ifeel the way this guy left OU was lacking in explanation. Yeah, Deoxys-A could 2HKO all of OU with no boosting moves whatsoever. But that doesn't mean Deoxys-N is broken. First of all, 150 base attacks can't hold a candle to 180 base attacks. You'll have to run a lot more moves like Psycho Boost instead of Psychic because there are just so many OHKOs and 2HKOs that Deoxys-N misses that Deoxys-A does not. Secondly, people argued that Deoxys-N wasn't as frail as Deoxys-A, but that still doesn't mean it'll ever survive non-fighting priority. 50/50/50 defenses make Infernape look like a wall, and considering how it'll pretty much always run Superpower, its defenses are just going to be even easier to capitalize on. Hell, with Superpower and a defense hindering nature, even Mach Punch is gonna do a number on it. Deoxys-N can theoretically run a deadly CB set with Extremespeed. But really, how much stronger is it than a CB Dragonite? All it means is that you need one less layer of spikes or one less Life Orb recoil to get a revenge kill, not that significant. Furthermore, Deoxys-N has to run the craptastic Zen Headbutt for STAB, which has significantly less power than CB Dragonite's Outrage, and has terrible coverage anyways. It's mixed sets can theoretically plow, but once again, this isn't Deoxys-A we're talking about, it just doesn't hit nearly as hard on either spectrum. Plus, how much more deadly can it be than a MixMence. Yeah, it has Psycho Boost to Mence's Draco Meteor, but even though Deoxys-N has more power, dragon is just plain better than psychic. Salamence also has access to Intimidate and Roost, so it has a much easier time getting in, and has much better survivability. In Deoxys-N's case, you pretty much have to sac somebody to get it in. The last most talked about set is the support Deoxys-N, but why the **** would you ever use that instead of Deoxys-S? Its pretty much just Deoxys-S with a stronger Extremespeed and is easier to revenge kill. Plus it loses one on one against Deoxys-S anyways. Speaking of revenge killing, Deoxys-N isn't actually that hard to take out. 150 base speed hits 438 at most. This means that anything faster than an Adamant Choice Scarf Haxorus can outspeed it. Lets hear a hip hip horray, Haxorus' speed is actually trolling someone else rather than being trolled. Once again, Extremespeed is not actually as dominant on Deoxys-N as you'd think. So essentially, Deoxys-N is a frail combination of Deoxys-S and Salamence, and even if you add the useage stats of those 2 together, you still have something used less than Tyranitar. I personally don't believe Deoxys-N will be broken or even overcentralizing.

Might as well. Deoxys-N never got a fair test.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Retesting of Deoxys-N: Ifeel the way this guy left OU was lacking in explanation. Yeah, Deoxys-A could 2HKO all of OU with no boosting moves whatsoever. But that doesn't mean Deoxys-N is broken. First of all, 150 base attacks can't hold a candle to 180 base attacks. You'll have to run a lot more moves like Psycho Boost instead of Psychic because there are just so many OHKOs and 2HKOs that Deoxys-N misses that Deoxys-A does not. Secondly, people argued that Deoxys-N wasn't as frail as Deoxys-A, but that still doesn't mean it'll ever survive non-fighting priority. 50/50/50 defenses make Infernape look like a wall, and considering how it'll pretty much always run Superpower, its defenses are just going to be even easier to capitalize on. Hell, with Superpower and a defense hindering nature, even Mach Punch is gonna do a number on it. Deoxys-N can theoretically run a deadly CB set with Extremespeed. But really, how much stronger is it than a CB Dragonite? All it means is that you need one less layer of spikes or one less Life Orb recoil to get a revenge kill, not that significant. Furthermore, Deoxys-N has to run the craptastic Zen Headbutt for STAB, which has significantly less power than CB Dragonite's Outrage, and has terrible coverage anyways. It's mixed sets can theoretically plow, but once again, this isn't Deoxys-A we're talking about, it just doesn't hit nearly as hard on either spectrum. Plus, how much more deadly can it be than a MixMence. Yeah, it has Psycho Boost to Mence's Draco Meteor, but even though Deoxys-N has more power, dragon is just plain better than psychic. Salamence also has access to Intimidate and Roost, so it has a much easier time getting in, and has much better survivability. In Deoxys-N's case, you pretty much have to sac somebody to get it in. The last most talked about set is the support Deoxys-N, but why the **** would you ever use that instead of Deoxys-S? Its pretty much just Deoxys-S with a stronger Extremespeed and is easier to revenge kill. Plus it loses one on one against Deoxys-S anyways. Speaking of revenge killing, Deoxys-N isn't actually that hard to take out. 150 base speed hits 438 at most. This means that anything faster than an Adamant Choice Scarf Haxorus can outspeed it. Lets hear a hip hip horray, Haxorus' speed is actually trolling someone else rather than being trolled. Once again, Extremespeed is not actually as dominant on Deoxys-N as you'd think. So essentially, Deoxys-N is a frail combination of Deoxys-S and Salamence, and even if you add the useage stats of those 2 together, you still have something used less than Tyranitar. I personally don't believe Deoxys-N will be broken or even overcentralizing.

Might as well. Deoxys-N never got a fair test.

If you want to nominate it go to the nominations thread!

 

[WarriorPrince]

If you want to remove the idiots from the voting pool, impose a sentence requirements or a lower reqs+sentences. I'm not sure why we have that in UU and not in OU, I guess it's because administrators would have to read a lot of sentences. A Council method is worse that what we have now in almost any measure.

They got rid of the Council because it doesn't work.

True, enough. I agree that the sentence requirement could essentially wipe out the potential idiot voters; however, I wasn't suggesting that the Council be as small as it once was [albeit, I did not clarify that]. Now that you mentioned it, I don't see any council method being beneficial. I must admit, I was a little pissed when I posted that suggestion.

 

[-Tsunami-]

If you want to nominate it go to the nominations thread!

He already did.
He just reposted it xD

 

[Jaxx]

People are far too ban happy, especially when it comes to weather. Using an auto-weather poke does not mean you will get auto wins on the ladder.
Is it popular? Yes.
Annoying? Yes.
Broken? Not by any means.
I honestly think weather is EXTREMLY over rated, and often times do much better with weather-less teams, that's just me though.

Auto-weather isn't broken on its own but it makes a lot of Pokemon "ban worthy".

Garchomp was pretty much banned because of auto-sand and sand veil combo.

Excadrill with sand rush has been up for noms 4 times already and most likely a 5th time.

Thundurus abusing thunder makes it a lot more deadly. I'm not saying that would stop it from being "ban worthy" but it would definitely make it a little easier to handle.

Plus, have you guys all forgotten about that drizzle + swift swim ban we have going? Are we honestly going to go through all this trouble of ability + ability bans and banning several Pokemon just because of their weather abusing abilities just so everyone can have their god damn weather wars?!

Sure, drizzle makes Pokemon like Toxicroak worthy of OU and opens some options a bit, but its also closing some.

I have seen a several people (not all of course) say they don't want auto-weather gone because they like T-tar.

...What? Seriously...

Also with banning auto-weather it still means, Politoed, Ninetales, Ttar, Hippo and Aboma will still be usable. Sure for some of them we will have to wait for their DW abilities to be released (if ever) but so fucking what?! Does being able to use these few Pokemon mean that much to you...?

I guess I'll end it here, I just wanted to say my piece, even if it gets completely ignored...

p.s auto-weather clause pl0x


EDIT:

Ban the following ability combos: Drizzle + Dry Skin, Hydration, or Rain Dish; Drought + Chlorophyll, Flower Gift, Leaf Guard, or Solar Power; Sand Stream + Sand Force, Sand Rush, or Sand Veil; Snow Warning + Ice Body or Snow Cloak; and unban Garchomp and Manaphy - The logical extension to the Drizzle + SwSw ban.

I felt it helps further my point.

EDIT EDIT:

We could even re-test Manaphy with auto-weather gone. (Maybe).

 

[Dr. Alpha]

The only major thing I can blatantly see with Auto-weather being banned is the illegal usage of Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Abomasnow in standard OU/UU by default due to their alternative abilities not being available at the moment. Obviously Ninetales and Politoed get off easy since they have Flash Fire and Water Absorb as an (albeit worse in comparison) alternative.

In terms of metagame influence, the loss of rain will probably increase fire types like Heatran and Volcarona a fair amount, and the Pokemon that are very dependent on weather (Most notably Excadrill) will drop severely. The temporary out casting of Tyranitar would also increase the usage of certain Pokemon like Reuniclus, Jellicent, and Latios with one less Pursuit abuser to worry about.

 

[Jaxx]

Banning auto-weather doesn't mean Ttar etc will be banned. They will just be illegal like genesect etc for the time being. They'd still be usable in dream world for instance.

Banning =/= not released.

 

[MaestroXXVI]

mold breaker negates magic bounce

passbreaker haxorus?

 

[Shurtugal]

I don't think sand or weather is broken. Weather IS the OU tier people. People want to ban it b/c they find it annoying. You can't just ban weather because it gives some pokemon boost. Also, Excadrill easily countered with a Trick Room team. Anyone thinking about Trick Room Victini?
Bronzong/Skarmory/Dusknoir(will-o-wisp)/Dusklops(same as dusknoir)/Gliscor/Multi-Scale Dragonite(Roost/Multi Scale plus access to EQ and Surf)/Weather all counter Exacdrill here. Weather is so common, just set up rain/hail/sun and it stops it cold. You can also just ban sand rush.

Reuniclus? Really? I don't see how its a threat. Lets see... Dragonite can take this thing on, Jirachi can pratically have a war with it, Gliscor can freely set up on it, other trick room teams love it, there is no "broken" part about it.


Deoxys-S

Deaxys usually sets up hazards. Smeargle can do this job, and hes not nomminated. If people nomminate him I nominate Smeagle as he can do any support job (and it rediculous b/c smeargle cant wall shit, just like Deoxy-S). Even with Sash, most teams either take little damage from hazards, or have RS support if they do.


Garchomp is uber, and should stay there. If this isn't the debate thing (and I think it is) please say so. I see people both nominating and debating so....


~ Freak

 

[NoUserName]

I think weather teams are (very) overrated.

Can someone tell some GOOD reason to ban Drought, Drizzle or/and Sandstream?

 

[Shurtugal]

Also, im hearing a lot of Espeon debate. Without screens (which says bye to baton passing) it can't really wall anything. Sure it has Morning Sun, with all the weather though, it can be easily nullified. People are going over board. Just because its a tough opponent doesn't make it broken. That goes for all pokemon. Also, if your going to nominate something, I reccommend how Uber tier feels about it. Its not fair that the Uber tier gets pokemon like Excadrill it can't work with b/c some people don't know how to deal with it.

 

[Jaxx]

You can also just ban sand rush.

And we are back to this again. Let's ban sand rush instead of Sandstorm. *next* Lets ban Sand force, sand veil is stupid so ban it and we can have garchomp back... etc etc

What is the point of removing everything related to weather instead of just removing weather itself.

Furthermore, i don't think weather should be banned "just because its annoying" but because it makes Pokemon "broken".

 

[Jaxx]

I think weather teams are (very) overrated.

Can someone tell some GOOD reason to ban Drought, Drizzle or/and Sandstream?

Hey buddy

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3863399&postcount=3921

EDIT: oops double post (sorry!)

 

[Shurtugal]

I think Sand Force should stay. Banning that bans Excadrill competly T_T
Also, Landorus is decent, not "broken" as Ice types attacks (ice beam) kills it. I don't know about ant other Sand Force abuser so~

Without Sand Veil, people are forced to use DW Gliscor, and are banned from Roost. I don;t think its to broken, as its just same old annoying hax (yes, but not broken). garchomp should leave just b/c of its superior stats.

Also, banning Weather is kind of pointless, as Weather IS OU, people play UU if they do not like weather T_T

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

Im honestly suprised by the amount of excadrill hate all of the sudden,
well thats not entirely true because its been pretty consistant, but it gained a lot of momentum with little talk on this thread.
Im excited for Offical usage stats after these bans
im sure this wont fix the OU metagame for sure, but maybe when speed tiers normalize we will all have some peace and quiet
Doubtful though because the weathers will still be giving people problems and the same unorigional teams are going to be played with a substitute for thunderous and excadrills places, thats if they get banned though.
Honestly im in support of a ferrothorn ban, but once fire punch comes out i think well be okay

I almost identically think this way as well. No other comment.

Katakiri summed up thundurus pretty well from my standpoint. I run choice scarf chandelure (He needs the speed) and it's a good stop to thundurus.

I don't think sand or weather is broken. Weather IS the OU tier people. People want to ban it b/c they find it annoying. You can't just ban weather because it gives some pokemon boost. Also, Excadrill easily countered with a Trick Room team. Anyone thinking about Trick Room Victini?
Bronzong/Skarmory/Dusknoir(will-o-wisp)/Dusklops(same as dusknoir)/Gliscor/Multi-Scale Dragonite(Roost/Multi Scale plus access to EQ and Surf)/Weather all counter Exacdrill here. Weather is so common, just set up rain/hail/sun and it stops it cold. You can also just ban sand rush.

I can just tell that you use weather. It's so obvious.

 

[Dr. Alpha]

The whole "counter weather with more weather vibe" is pretty much the main problem with the metagame at the moment, as it makes players forced to use another weather team to counter the other weather team or else get the huge risk of being swept by something like Excadrill or Thundurus. This wouldn't be such a huge problem if it wasn't so common, but the truth is that its too common and unhealthy to the metagame at the moment. As an example, notice how the majority of Pokemon banned so far were because of automatic weather influencing how they played (I.e. Garchomp with Sand Veil, Manaphy with Hydration abuse, Blaziken under Sun to an extent), and how certain Pokemon are being suggested for banning because of weather like Excadrill and Thunderus.

 

[Shurtugal]

Pokemon Nomminnated that should not be banned:

Espeon (Like I said, frail)
Deoxy-S (To overrated, previous post show why)
Weather (So commonly used, and a Mechanic in the gam. You don't just completly destroy a mechanic)

Pokemon in question:

Excadrill (Many counters people, or just ban sand rush)
Landorus (No one has a problem with him unless they don't carry ice beam, and everyone runs it)

@ Dr.Alpha

I agree with you a bit. It makes you forced to use other pokemon or weather to counter it. Although, like I said, its a mechanic in the game. We should just ban certain abilities

Sand:
Sand Rush
Rain:
Rain Dish (Or Dry Skin?)
Sun:
Chlorophyl


I agree with NoUserName completly

 

[NoUserName]

Hey buddy

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3863399&postcount=3921

EDIT: oops double post (sorry!)

Edit one of your posts and delete the other.

By the way, er... Thunder, but Thunder sucks a lot in another weather, 50% of accuracy I think, too unrealiable, like flip a coin. Worse than Focus Blast and Stone Edge together.

Excadrill nominated, but not sent to Ubers.

In my opinion there are not by far good reasons.

 

[Blue_Star]

am i the only one who thinks that they should delete posts without an identification on the suspect nomination/voter identification thread? seriously, people are posting a lot of retarded crap there, such as BANNING HYDREIGON. of course there are people with reqs that are making jokes (such as nomming sunkern), but it's annoying when randoms who didn't even ladder go there and post something retarded.

 

[Shurtugal]

am i the only one who thinks that they should delete posts without an identification on the suspect nomination/voter identification thread? seriously, people are posting a lot of retarded crap there, such as BANNING HYDREIGON. of course there are people with reqs that are making jokes (such as nomming sunkern), but it's annoying when randoms who didn't even ladder go there and post something retarded.

Same here, back up with reason or shut up!

 

[Demoness]

Same here, back up with reason or shut up!

......

Anyway, I seriously don't get why people seem to think that all auto weather needs to get banned. The only thing that can really be done realistically to nerf weathers death grip on the metagame is to ban Drizzle and get rid of Excadrill. Of course, nerfing Sun is also a possibility, but I doubt that will happen (and hope it won't). Hail obviously doesn't need anything done to it.

 

[Jaxx]

In my opinion there are not by far good reasons.

Right except you completely missed the swift swim + drizzle ban bit and you act like going up for suspect 4 times means nothing. It has to mean something if people keep voting for it every single god damn round.

 

[NoUserName]

I think Sand Force should stay. Banning that bans Excadrill competly T_T
Also, Landorus is decent, not "broken" as Ice types attacks (ice beam) kills it. I don't know about ant other Sand Force abuser so~

Without Sand Veil, people are forced to use DW Gliscor, and are banned from Roost. I don;t think its to broken, as its just same old annoying hax (yes, but not broken). garchomp should leave just b/c of its superior stats.

Also, banning Weather is kind of pointless, as Weather IS OU, people play UU if they do not like weather T_T

Gliscor also has Hyper Cutter.

I am disagree of banning weather in OU or abilities bar Swift Swim with Drizzle, and I rarely carry weather.

Ban Espeon? Why? Is it the time of banning what we want or make us troubles?

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

People wanting to unban Garchomp, this is bullshit. He was fucking broken without subbing for sand veil misses. Could General Empoleon respond to this post please? I remember that you posted a large paragraph on Garchomp some time in the past, and summed up everything about how sand veil wasnt even half of his problem. Could you repost that?

 

[WarriorPrince]

am i the only one who thinks that they should delete posts without an identification on the suspect nomination/voter identification thread? seriously, people are posting a lot of retarded crap there, such as BANNING HYDREIGON. of course there are people with reqs that are making jokes (such as nomming sunkern), but it's annoying when randoms who didn't even ladder go there and post something retarded.

Trust me, you are not the only one. It's pissing me off. I don't know why they even post there if they don't have identification. Is there not a rule against it? People gonna be people, I guess. Some people just jump on every floating stump, not knowing that the shit will sink eventually.