np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

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As far as Heracross, it's pretty much an outcast - Terrakion and Conkeldurr pretty much stole all of its thunder.
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I'm not sure that it's Terrakion (and I guess Conkeldurr) so much as Gliscor being so high in usage. Heracross' dual STABs are great and it has resistances that Terrakion can't boast, including Ground and Fighting themselves. Terrakion does have access to boosting moves and the speed to back them up, but Heracross can still be a menace if used properly. Overall I'd agree with your assessment, though.

What are people's opinions on water spam? Mono-water is one of the few monotype teams that can be successful, so I'd imagine that sticking 2-3 on a rain team may not be as unviable as it seems. LO Kingdra was 3HKOing Thorn off of base 95 SpA alone, I'm sure that with the proper support (ie a way to remove Gastrodon), a team spamming 2-3 users of boosted Hydro Pump could be frightening to deal with.
 
@iDunno

I agree with that in general, but I'm running Hail Raikou, and thus, a hail team. I know that I could probably do better with Double Dragon, but I'm not the most competitive of battlers and I still enjoy using some pokemon that aren't necessarily the best.

Anyway, I don't think Water Spam is very viable. That's just begging to be swept by any grass type, and walled by Gastrodon. Drought Teams with Chlorophyll users are also problems.

As for Heracross, I recently tried out scarf Hera and I just realised how effective it can be if you use it right. After Gliscor and/or Jellicent are gone he does very well. His STABs alone take care of a lot of Pokemon in the tier (Excadrill, T-Tar, Reuniclus, Latios, Heatran, Scrafty, .etc) I still believe it's a great poke, and I disagree with Terrakion outclassing it entirely. How is Terrakion killing Reuniclus / Latios / Celebi? Scarf Terrakion has better neutral coverage but Heracross gets great super effective hits on a lot of threats in the tier that Terrakion can't get. On the other hand, Conkeldurr can't run any set with speed for its life.

Anyone else actually tried out Heracross recently?
 
IcyMan28 said:
I'm not sure that it's Terrakion (and I guess Conkeldurr) so much as Gliscor being so high in usage. Heracross' dual STABs are great and it has resistances that Terrakion can't boast, including Ground and Fighting themselves. Terrakion does have access to boosting moves and the speed to back them up, but Heracross can still be a menace if used properly. Overall I'd agree with your assessment, though.

What are people's opinions on water spam? Mono-water is one of the few monotype teams that can be successful, so I'd imagine that sticking 2-3 on a rain team may not be as unviable as it seems. LO Kingdra was 3HKOing Thorn off of base 95 SpA alone, I'm sure that with the proper support (ie a way to remove Gastrodon), a team spamming 2-3 users of boosted Hydro Pump could be frightening to deal with.
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Back in Kingdra's times, the Water-types outsped everything too.

Nowdays, pure Hydro Pump spam dosen't work, as the spammers can actually be revenged killed.

Still, almost all rain teams have two Hydro Pump spammers, in Rotom-W and Politoad itself. You could probobly toss Starmie in there for an Anti-Dragon, as well as pure speed.

As for Gastrodon, Rain Dish Ludicolo exists still. Or you could just use 'Thorn, and get free Spikes on the 'I'm useless against anything except rain sweepers' pink blob of centralisation.

Aleva said:
@iDunno

I agree with that in general, but I'm running Hail Raikou, and thus, a hail team. I know that I could probably do better with Double Dragon, but I'm not the most competitive of battlers and I still enjoy using some pokemon that aren't necessarily the best.

Anyway, I don't think Water Spam is very viable. That's just begging to be swept by any grass type, and walled by Gastrodon. Drought Teams with Chlorophyll users are also problems.

As for Heracross, I recently tried out scarf Hera and I just realised how effective it can be if you use it right. After Gliscor and/or Jellicent are gone he does very well. His STABs alone take care of a lot of Pokemon in the tier (Excadrill, T-Tar, Reuniclus, Latios, Heatran, Scrafty, .etc) I still believe it's a great poke, and I disagree with Terrakion outclassing it entirely. How is Terrakion killing Reuniclus / Latios / Celebi? Scarf Terrakion has better neutral coverage but Heracross gets great super effective hits on a lot of threats in the tier that Terrakion can't get. On the other hand, Conkeldurr can't run any set with speed for its life.

Anyone else actually tried out Heracross recently?
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Begging to be swept by Grass types? Ice Beam exists.

Walled by Gastrodon? Ludicolo exists. Hell, HP Grass Exists. PURE water spam is stupid anyway, a good Water-spamming team would have one, maybe two mons who can take down things like 'Thorn and Gastro.

And, when is Ninetails switching in on Mono-Water?

As for ScarfHera, you can't forget the advantages of Guts, and not being weak to every OU priroity attack there is bar Extremespeed...
 
SpD Calm Ninetales can switch in on mono water most of the time, actually. It isn't ohko'd by anything and only has to slightly worry about specs hydro pump. And when he said, begging to be swept by grass types, he probably meant drought teams (there are only two grass pokes who would be considered "sweepers" without drought anyway, and they're both CM boosters) where the grass types will outrun or revenge you. Mono water does indeed lose to Venusuar.

For me, heracross' niche is that tyranitar can't just run away into Latias to try and cover his ass. He also isn't setup fodder for reuniclus if you're spamming megahorn the whole time.
 
Heracross also has Moxie.



About Weather Ball on Raikou in Hail, sounds interesting, due to weather war, switching the attack into a Weather Ball boosted by Rain or boosted by Sun(bye Chorophyllers), or Ice Weather Ball sounds nice and Weather Ball Rock-type in Sandstorm(AuraSphere those Excadrills, Tyranitar and Ferros, sadly it leaves a bit helpless against Landorus(in the switch))

I think HP Fire is unnecesary in that case, unless you are too worried about Forretress and Scizor, also forces Raikou to carry 30 Iv Spd, leaving with 328 Spd, tying with max Spd +Spd base 100 Spd(4352464646 things)
 
Yeah, mono-Water is pretty bad. It was tried in round 1 and 2 when DrizzleSwim was still around. A team like that is just begging to be swept by CM Virizion. Seriously, all it was is lead with CM Virizion, Calm Mind up on their Politoed and just plain old 6-0. It was pretty much the reason Virizion came into the limelight in the first place. CM Latias wrecks it pretty badly, too.
 
Is there any reason the voter thread hasn't gone up yet? And likewise, Heracross actually doesn't suck this metagame! It's not that great, but it works nice as a revenge killer with its STAB moves. CB Megahorn also OHKOes Reuniclus!!!
 
I think its more likely that they got busy or wanted to find an outcome of the stuff going on in PR before bringing up the thread. I am sure that it will be up when they find the spare time.
 
Jabba's post is up
though there is one question of if to group weather as one vote or to seperate them
and honestly im not sure what is best
theres thev no ban people
the ban drizzle people
then the drizzle sandstorm people
the drought drizzle people
the drought drizzle sandstorm
and finally the all weathers

i dont find the sand to be horribly powerful without excadrill
terrakion is good but certainly more tolerable (DOESNT RESIST BULLET PUNCH OR MACH PUNCH AND DOESNT RAPE SPEED TIERS)
in the case of drizzle, its time, i think
scizor will be a top tier poke anyway and ill miss sweeping with vappy and hydrolization
drought is perfectly manageble as of now, but who knows if rain is banned
oh and hail..........................................
 
The autoweather inducing abilities should be separated. They clearly aren't equal and there are people like SJCrew who will not vote to ban Sand Stream and vote to ban Drizzle/Drought, and I think that choice should remain.
 
Here are the lists of the suspects for the next vote. The topic will be soon released, i guess.

Non Pokemons : All weathers exept Hail + Baton pass

Pokemons : Thundurus, Excadrill, Deoxys-S, Dragonite and Volcarona
 
Nelson-X said:
Here are the lists of the suspects for the next vote. The topic will be soon released, i guess.

Non Pokemons : All weathers exept Hail + Baton pass

Pokemons : Thundurus, Excadrill, Deoxys-S, Dragonite and Volcarona
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It said all auto-weather abilities, not "all weathers except Hail".

That said, a Baton Pass ban seems ridiculous. If it's Magic Bounce Espeon that makes BP broken, then wouldn't the logical course of action be to, oh, I dunno, ban Magic Bounce?
 
It personally thing the weather votes should be done separate. Not everyone wants all weather banned, and quite a few people just want rain gone. Overall you will get a much more accurate results of what people want if you go with them separate.

Banning magic bounce is not the way to go. Xatu should not be punished for Espeon's sins. If it is Espeons fault for Baton Pass being broken (I don't think Baton Pass is broken...) then it should go.
 
Separate them, it's silly to group them together. If people want to ban weather then why can't they just vote ban for all of them separately?

Just my dumb opinion.
 
I am definitely against grouping auto weather abilities together. Sand is nowhere near broken and excadrill, the primary abuser in question, even has its own spot on the ballot. I feel like grouping sand together with the others when the general consensus is "not broken" will jeopardize drizzle's shot at a supermajority. If sand even deserves a vote at least separate them individually.
 
Yea, the auto-weather abilities should be separated. Those who want all auto-weather banned should just select "Ban" for all 4 abilities.

Heracross's Megahorn is definitely a boon this gen, with myriads of Psychic mons lurking to take out Fighting mons. Gliscor really can't do shit back to Heracross, who can keep on Bulking Up / Swords Dance to finish it off with Stone Edge. Same with Jellicent.

Other fighter mons that we see does have one big advantage in Speed / powerful priority. Terrakion, Virizion, and to a lesser extent DD Scrafty fall in the speed category, whereas Conkeldurr and Lucario fall in the priority. However, I definitely see Heracross being able to find a niche in OU, somewhat like Breloom. They are both slow and easily revenge-killed, but they both have useful moves and resistances to set them apart from others (ie STAB Seed Bomb and Megahorn). I may try Heracross out :d
 
Nelson-X said:
What is stupid is to ban only drizzle and to let the two others lol
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How is it stupid? Maybe people think that only Drizzle is broken. Don't just something is stupid and laugh at it without giving a reason.

As far as Multi-Scale vs Dragonite, no idea. Banning Multi-Scale does not harm any other pokemon so I have nothing against banning it. (If people are to chose that route) Then of course, you are only saving Dragonite with that ban, so it is basically nerfing it to stay in OU which I know is an itcky thing to some people. That being said, I don't care one bit either way, no complax ban comes out of it either way.
 
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