the voting hasnt started yet?... I thought it was starting last night
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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In my opinion, I think that weather should be grouped together. If you were to ban only some of the weathers, this helps the weather(s) that remain. I feel that each weather has enough merits to where people would simply go to them if their previous weather was banned.
Sun has chlorophyll and an increase in fire moves.
Sand has residual damage and special defense boost.
Rain has increase in water moves and hp/status restoration.
Hail isn't really much of a concern, hail does have residual damage, but only ice types are immune, and ice-typing is awful. Most ice-types, except Mamoswine, possibly Weavile, don't really perform well in OU either. Hail is pretty much just along for the ride.
If you ban only one or two weathers, then the leftover weathers would be the new focus, as it is obvious that having control of the weather leaves you at an advantage, and with the fact that a weather or two would be banned, would make it easier to keep control of your own weather, reinforcing the remaining weathers. It would be the same focus as it is now, on weather, but with even less variety and more centralization.
In my opinion, ban them all or none at all.
Sun has chlorophyll and an increase in fire moves.
Sand has residual damage and special defense boost.
Rain has increase in water moves and hp/status restoration.
Hail isn't really much of a concern, hail does have residual damage, but only ice types are immune, and ice-typing is awful. Most ice-types, except Mamoswine, possibly Weavile, don't really perform well in OU either. Hail is pretty much just along for the ride.
If you ban only one or two weathers, then the leftover weathers would be the new focus, as it is obvious that having control of the weather leaves you at an advantage, and with the fact that a weather or two would be banned, would make it easier to keep control of your own weather, reinforcing the remaining weathers. It would be the same focus as it is now, on weather, but with even less variety and more centralization.
In my opinion, ban them all or none at all.
So it is wrong to try and make the BW metagame Ideal? That is really pig minded of you, maybe we want to play with gen 5 pokemon, but we want the metagame to be golden like the gen 4 one was? Or maybe we like how some older pokemon got new toys and want to use them in a golden metagame? We could say the samething by saying if you like Drizzle and Dought go play ubers, but then again we would be saying the same shit you are, because the metagames are different but we do have the right to try to perfect this one. It really puts off that vibe of get out of my country because you have different views then me. All of us have a right to voice our opinions here, about the BW metagame, and if we don't like the Weather we can push a weatherless agenda, and you can push one for it. But don't go telling use to go else where because you don't like how we think.
Surely you could just seperate the weathers, and then those who want all weather banned simply vote for all 3/4 to be banned...?
Because Sand and Hail were banned in DPP by the end, and Heatran and Scizor ultimately didn't wind up on more teams then than Tyranitar apparently is on now, amirite?
Quoting for posterity. We don't ban stuff based off of theorymon, but ban stuff based on empirical evidence. PROVE that Sun or Sand would be broken without Rain and then ban the guilty weather. In order to prove, we must suspect test. It is far too early to decide whether Hail would be broken if all the other weathers were eliminated.
But I guess this is fruitless debating about auto-weather, because there is no fucking way any of them will be banned. The best chance we had was last round to remove Drizzle, but since it didn't even reach simple majority, I doubt Rain changed much to gain supermajority this round.
Ur right, but, some of us think that nothing should be changed b/c it's already ideal.
lol, the difference is that we now have auto-weahter with sun and rain and that new pokemon like landorus and terrakion would get broken if sand was the only weather to remain with hail so think about what you say before posting plz
That is true, but all I was saying is don't go telling us to go play gen 4, and not try to change this gen. Basically, yet us say what we want, and you say what you want, and let the voters chose how the meta will shape. Don't get me wrong, feel free to debate our points, we sure as well yours, just no telling us to leave please :)
Alright, then instead of telling you to leave please, I'll tell you to please leave.
In all seriousness though, I don't see why people are trying to reproduce 4th gen with the B/W metagame. That was 4th gen, this is 5th gen, its different. Weather is a mechanic of the game, and has been, along with team preview, the defining features of the generation. If this were 4th gen, would you ban the physical special split? Would you ban Stealth Rock (actually scratch that, there are a couple retards that would).
The game mechanics have changed. Is it okay to ban broken elements of these mechanics? Such as Swift Swim? I'd say sure. But is it okay to elimate an entire element of the game? No.
I honestly don't see why people get so worked up about making 5th gen similar to the balanced metagame achieved near the end of 4th gen. Are people really that fucking obsessed about getting themselves to #1 on the ladder? Honestly, if your definition of a "good metagame" involves no Excadrill, Drizzle, or Drought, then B/W UU and DPPt OU are the games to play. Don't ruin it for those of us who actually enjoy the weather wars.
I personally can care less about being number one of the ladder, but I can't play B/w UU or DPPt OU with a poison heal gliscor, can I? The point I am trying to make is OU is the standard meta, we have a right to try and shape it to how we feel is fit. The goal is to make a desirable metagame, you push want you want and we will push what we want. What it comes down too is what the voters wants, and if they listen to your post and not mine, that is their choice, but I will still voice myself hoping they will listen to what I want, and maybe they will consider it. You should do the same, instead of telling us to play a different tier, because I can tell you B/W UU is not what I want, and DDPt OU is very close, but doesn't have some of the new toys and pokes I would like to use. I will continue to push for a Drizzle and Exca ban, I honestly don't care if you like them here, cause I don't like them here. Once again, I am not going to over the whole argument of why I want them to go, as it has been stated over and over by others.
I am sick of this, give good reasons to ban weather bar hail.
Really does anybody think hail should be banned in OU?
Really does anybody think hail should be banned in OU?
i dont think it should be banned since if it wasnt banned last gen it should stay the same since almost nothing really happend for ice except for kyurem
Totally agree, this isnt "upgraded 4th gen" this is a new generation for a reason. If people are voting or support a near 4th gen like style then please just go play 4th gen instead. If weather was so bad to play with from the start then it would have already been banned in a previous round.
Auto-weather abilities have to be voted on together, if you separate weathers then the ones who don't get banned will be overused and will dominate the metagame. It's all or nothing.
Also, WTF at not including ability combos (sand stream + sand rush screams out loud). Seriously how many times has that been mentioned?
In any case my team will benefit heavily even if I will not vote since a Exadrill and possibly other weathers will get banned, but that's what I had on mind for now.
Ability combos should have been listed Jabba/Bloo.
Also, WTF at not including ability combos (sand stream + sand rush screams out loud). Seriously how many times has that been mentioned?
In any case my team will benefit heavily even if I will not vote since a Exadrill and possibly other weathers will get banned, but that's what I had on mind for now.
Ability combos should have been listed Jabba/Bloo.
How is Terrakion going to become broken by sand? Sand's benefit to Terrakion is basically a Light Screen, true. However, Excadrill's more-commonly-used benefit of Sand is being able to outspeed everything that will ever exist ever. And Landorus's benefit is to hit harder with Earthquake and Stone Edge / Rock Slide / Smack Down / insert rock attack here.
See the difference? Excadrill and Landorus are primarily offensive monsters getting offensive boosts. Terrakion's an offensive threat, too, but Sand's benefit for him is a defensive one. In fact, it's the same kind of defensive boost that Tyranitar himself is getting from Sand.
Don't forget, though, that this Sp.Def boost only applies to Rock Pokemon, which is one of the WORST defensive types in the game, having weaknesses to Grass, Steel, Water, Ground, and Fighting attacks, the latter three of which are some of the most common and useful offensive types in the game, and Steel, Water, and Fighting having useful priority attacks to actually hit these guys with. If you're actually trying to take down a Tyranitar or Terrakion on a Sand team with special attacks that aren't any of these types (or hell, even if they ARE these types but still special), you're doing it wrong.
In short, I see Terrakion improving in Sand but not being BROKEN in it.
Do you want a repeat of UU in OU?
Yeah, Hail is really the only weather that wouldn't have much of an effect if it was the only weather left standing in OU, as having control of the weather with hail doesn't really put you in an overly advantageous position. There are lots of powerful OU pokemon and most of the benefits of hail are only derived from Ice types, all of which aren't very good, except for Mamoswine, and I'll give a bone to Weavile and Kyurem.
If you think Hail will be broken in OU then you are either trolling or very stupid.
That being said, i disagree with all weathers being grouped together. They are all very different. This 'if one goes then the others will rule' arguement seems stupid and biased. How can you even determine if something is broken if its not been tested in that environment yet. Tbh, even Rain seems balanced atm. There is no need to make a rash move and ban all weathers.
@ Jabba's query: No, I do not support 'weather inducing abilities'. Sand Stream doesn't do shit and neither does Snow Warning. My support extends only to Drizzle and Drought; without them, there is no weather metagame. Sand does not have the ability to create entire teams of powerful weather inducers, it merely gives balanced, semi-weatherless offense a chance in a metagame that has nearly made it obsolete. If Excadrill and Landorus are found unbalanced on their own, they will have to leave. Sand will not be nailed to the cross for the crimes of one or two Pokemon.
Hail hasn't done anything. If the voters still hate Sand Stream, that's fine, I won't stop you, but don't pretend Hail will be a dominant force if it's banned.
Hail hasn't done anything. If the voters still hate Sand Stream, that's fine, I won't stop you, but don't pretend Hail will be a dominant force if it's banned.
and Stallrein and stop counting.
Just my two cents here:
I agree with the no ban weather side.
Reason: the weather itself is not "broken", not even close to it. Sand doesn't need to be banned. The only thing that could be really banned would be Excadrill (already a suspect), the only sand abuser (bar Garchomp, already banned) who could really be listed as "broken". The reasons were said on various posts, i won't repeat them here. Same goes for Drizzle. Without Swift Swimmers abusing it, the only thing who could be said "broken" is Thundurus (who is already a suspect). Sun isn't broken at all, all sun sweepers have decent checks/counters, and Hail shouldn't even be mentioned, for god sake. We all could deal with Hail on 4th Gen, with or without weather. The only new toys in Hail would be Kyurem and somehow Rotom-F (but his new Ice type gives him too many weaknesses). I really think Hail deserved some more, hope the next games bring more pokémons to abuse it. Banning weather will not solve any problems, probably will bring even more.
I agree with the no ban weather side.
Reason: the weather itself is not "broken", not even close to it. Sand doesn't need to be banned. The only thing that could be really banned would be Excadrill (already a suspect), the only sand abuser (bar Garchomp, already banned) who could really be listed as "broken". The reasons were said on various posts, i won't repeat them here. Same goes for Drizzle. Without Swift Swimmers abusing it, the only thing who could be said "broken" is Thundurus (who is already a suspect). Sun isn't broken at all, all sun sweepers have decent checks/counters, and Hail shouldn't even be mentioned, for god sake. We all could deal with Hail on 4th Gen, with or without weather. The only new toys in Hail would be Kyurem and somehow Rotom-F (but his new Ice type gives him too many weaknesses). I really think Hail deserved some more, hope the next games bring more pokémons to abuse it. Banning weather will not solve any problems, probably will bring even more.
XD I couldn't care less about the argument concerning weather anymore (I'm still in the opinion that it should be banned bar hail, sand and maybe sun) sense I don't play much anymore but don't bunch all the pro weather banners together as people who just want 4th gen. I'm sure there are a few people out there who feel this way but most pro banners of weather really don't like it for some reason or another. They could personally think it's broken, (like me) don't like battling it, or are just tired of seeing it. Whatever the case it's foolish to think that the pro weather banners simply want 4th gen back.
This certainly isn't 4th gen even if weathers were gone. There are way to many new things to ever go back to 4th gen without changing the very core of 5th gen itself. It just cant be done. Most people realize this. (Though I'm sure some people will try anyway.)
Also weather may be a major element of the game but so was Salamence and Latias in 4th gen. I dare you go back to the statistics from when before they were banned, compare it to after they were banned, and tell me there wasn't a MAJOR shift in the metagame. Weather could be banned the same as anything else in pokemon. There is no reason why weather needs to be treated as special as it is now. As much as people see it the opposite way, weather is NOT the 5th gen metagame. Granted it is a major part of it, but it is NOT the 5th gen metagame. It can be banned the same as anything else and it's foolish to think otherwise.
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