np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[AfroThunderRule]

Yes he's the same Missingno. Master from GameFAQs

Anyways.... if you want this nub's opinion I think the best way to deal with this BP issue is to do a complex ban on Espeon+Baton Pass... but even then I don't think that combo or the move Baton Pass are ban worthy.

 

[Thorhammer]

Yes he's the same Missingno. Master from GameFAQs

Anyways.... if you want this nub's opinion I think the best way to deal with this BP issue is to do a complex ban on Espeon+Baton Pass... but even then I don't think that combo or the move Baton Pass are ban worthy.

Magic Bounce + Baton Pass would be much more reasonable if necessary, since it addresses the issue perfectly. Stick both the ability and the move onto anything half-decent and you've got something just as broken as Espeon.

 

[Challenger]

While I haven't been checking in on the discussion, I have one thing to post that basically says "Thundurus stays OU" and it is this:

+ ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- +  
 | Rank | Pokemon         | Usage  | Percent |  
 + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- +  
 | 1    | Scizor          | 59655  | 23.334% | 
 | 2    | Tyranitar       | 57563  | 22.515% | 
 | 3    | Rotom-W         | 56906  | 22.258% | 
 | 4    | Ferrothorn      | 49546  | 19.380% | 
 | 5    | Dragonite       | 48845  | 19.105% | 
 | 6    | Gliscor         | 47337  | 18.516% | 
 | 7    | Politoed        | 43860  | 17.156% | 
 | 8    | Heatran         | 41843  | 16.367% | 
 | 9    | Excadrill       | 38156  | 14.925% | 
 | 10   | Jirachi         | 37558  | 14.691% | 
 | 11   | Latios          | 34889  | 13.647% | 
 | 12   | Skarmory        | 33419  | 13.072% | 
[B]| 13   | Thundurus       | 28956  | 11.326% | [/B]
 | 14   | Reuniclus       | 27176  | 10.630% | 
 | 15   | Haxorus         | 24132  |  9.439% |

Nothing looks like it really needs a ban here. The top three are all roughly equal in usage. What I'm really worried about is that 8 of the top 12 are immune to sandstorm damage.

Everyone is having the same type of discussion here, and it should be addressed.

Most of the pokemon we're discussing in this round are not broken in a vacuum. Excadrill is pretty weak without Sand, Espeon is easily taken care of outside BP. Thundurus, as a single pokemon, is very strong, but not broken.

However, you factor in the insane sand speed boost for Excadrill, the Stored Power and anti-phasing of Espeon, and Thundurus's prankster and rain dominance, then we have a different story.

Which is why we have weather nominated and Baton Pass nominated. The community needs to come together, as a whole, and vote on this issue:

Should we ban the enabler or the user (Sand or Excadrill, Baton Pass or Espeon, RAin or Thundurus).

 

[Rosey Oak]

Which is why we have weather nominated and Baton Pass nominated. The community needs to come together, as a whole, and vote on this issue:

Should we ban the enabler or the user (Sand or Excadrill, Baton Pass or Espeon, RAin or Thundurus).

I firmly believe that SandStorm as a weather condition is NOT broken. I do however, feel that Excadrill breaks SS and in this scenario I would personally ban the abuser.

Now in the case of Drizzle, I strongly believe that the weather condition IS broken and therefore I would personally ban Drizzle regardless of whether or not it is over powering Thunderus.

As for baton pass, I do not have a strong opinion either way.
EDIT: (But IF Epseon is the only Pokemon that breaks baton pass, I would probably chose to ban it instead of banning the move entirely.)

 

[KurashiDragon]

I firmly believe that SandStorm as a weather condition is NOT broken. I do however, feel that Excadrill breaks SS and in this scenario I would personally ban the abuser.

Now in the case of Drizzle, I strongly believe that the weather condition IS broken and therefore I would personally ban Drizzle regardless of whether or not it is over powering Thunderus.

As for baton pass, I do not have a strong opinion either way.

Pretty much this however to add to it, Baton Pass was barely even talked about before BP got Espeon and even after that it wasn't talked about very much. I personally don't believe it's broken but I can see the arguments for a BP ban. I hate complex bans I really do. To intentionally make something weaker just to keep it in the metagame you want is a rather poor ban. However, there are some cases where this is needed. I believe that Espeon and BP are not broken. It would be easier to complex ban BP and Magic Mirror.

 

[Missingno. Master]

Heeey, are you the same Missingno. Master from the Gamefaqs boards? I saw you had a similar post about smashpass gorebyss over there too. :)

That I am. And before anyone else asks, yes, I'm also the same Missingno. Master from Serebii and Bulbagarden, and the same Missingno. Master you might have battled on PO lately, who uses a Curse Stunfisk.

 

[Thorhammer]

When Baton Pass had chains of Smeargle, Scizor, Umbreon, and whoever else, no one really complained about it.

When Baton Pass had Shell Smash, a few people complained about it, but not many.

When Espeon had Baton Pass, no one complained about it.

When Espeon had Magic Mirror, no one complained about it in OU.

When Espeon could have both Baton Pass and Magic Mirror at the same time (being the first and so far only existing Pokemon to use the combination), that's when a ton of players and voters really started to complain.

If there's a problem, it's simple to see where it is.

---

There is one more repercussion to consider.

Let's consider what people were saying about Smogon when Blaziken was banned in its entirety. If Smogon bans Baton Pass now, is there any chance that it will ever be taken remotely seriously anywhere else ever again?

Even if the reputation may change for some of the wrong reasons, it's important to consider. And those reasons may not be as wrong as they sound.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

This might sound a little odd, but what about another complexity ban? What about a Magic Bounce + Baton Pass ban of some sort, either on espeon itself, or on a team. It certainly would solve the baton pass problem, and would still keep baton pass teams legal, because lets me honest, baton pass teams without espeon are pretty easy to deal with. Just throwing the idea out there though, I am interested to see if its viable.

 

[Thorhammer]

This might sound a little odd, but what about another complexity ban? What about a Magic Bounce + Baton Pass ban of some sort, either on espeon itself, or on a team. It certainly would solve the baton pass problem, and would still keep baton pass teams legal, because lets me honest, baton pass teams without espeon are pretty easy to deal with. Just throwing the idea out there though, I am interested to see if its viable.

Not as odd as you think; that proposal already seems to be gaining a ton of support here.

Anyone else in favor of consideration of a Magic Bounce + Baton Pass ban, at least as a preferred option to the existing considerations of a full Baton Pass ban? I want to see how much support we can get here.

 

[badabing]

@nld/oak: what are you guys talking about? i don't think we have a say after this round and most of those are current suspects anyway -_-

In other news, what does this thread think of Dnite? From my experience, LumDD and last poke subDD are on the threshold of brokeness (obvi with Multi Scale), but those particular sets, the strongest imo, just don't get enough love on the ladder to have a united ban front against him. And then he also has the ability to go mixed wallbreaker and wreck typical switchins, which are pretty much forced to play you honest due to the power of CB and gamebreaking potential of DD. Scary mon to face indeed.

I'm not feeling the baton pass majority either but w/e.

 

[Danger Mouse]

Not as odd as you think; that proposal already seems to be gaining a ton of support here.

Anyone else in favor of consideration of a Magic Bounce + Baton Pass ban, at least as a preferred option to the existing considerations of a full Baton Pass ban? I want to see how much support we can get here.

YES. Magic Bounce makes baton pass super broken.

 

[Molk]

YES. Magic Bounce makes baton pass super broken.

why dont people just lead with sableye if they have one when they see a baton pass team? taunt stops setup, and it owns espeon being immune to bp espeons usual attacks. I use sableye and it pretty much hard counters baton pass if you play it right.

 

[charizard24]

In other news, what does this thread think of Dnite? From my experience, LumDD and last poke subDD are on the threshold of brokeness (obvi with Multi Scale), but those particular sets, the strongest imo, just don't get enough love on the ladder to have a united ban front against him. And then he also has the ability to go mixed wallbreaker and wreck typical switchins, which are pretty much forced to play you honest due to the power of CB and gamebreaking potential of DD. Scary mon to face indeed.

Dragonite is nowhere near broken with any of its sets imo. LumDD has its Multiscale ripped away from it in Sandstorm and unless it runs Roost (losing coverage) it probably wont get more than one DD in. SubDD is on the same boat. Not to mention that SR completely circumvents his ability. Also, out of all the 4 sets you mentioned none are broken on their own and Dragonite can't be running all those moves at once.

 

[asdfrozen]

Speaking of complex-banning Espeon and BP...

Motion to unban Blaze Blaziken?
What about unbanning Darkrai and complex-banning Darkrai+Dark Void? And unbanning Manaphy and complex-banning Manaphy+Drizzle?

 

[Rosey Oak]

@MoltenKyurem

'IF' baton pass is broken, people do not want to be forced into carrying the one soul Pokemon/Strategy that effectively counters it on all of their teams. Although, this is assuming baton pass is used a lot in the first place, which it isn't.

 

[Raikaria]

We do NOT need another complex ban. [The first one should never have existed, Drizzle should have been banned outright, especially as it's still a powerful, massivly centralising force in the metagame]

There is only one pokemon with Magic Bounce and Baton Pass.

This pokemon is Espeon.

Hence, Espeon is broken. It's the same logic as why we didn't do Speed Boost + Blaziken like some people asked, because it's part of the same pokemon.

As long as Espeon remains the sole pokemon with the MB + BP combination, there should not be a complex ban. Espeon is the one at fault. [And, to be honest, Espeon's Base 115 Speed dosen't help things. I doubt that combo would be broken with Xatu]

This logic is why I nominated Espeon. Baton Pass in itself is not broken. It wasn't broken with Shell Smash around, although it was annoying. But Magic Mirror thrown in broke it.


For argument's sake, let's say Mew got Magic Bounce as it's Dream World ability as well. And, obviously, Mew broke Baton Pass with that. In this situation where there are two broken pokemon with the combination, then I would support a Magic Bounce + BP ban.
*Note this may not be the best argument, because MB Mew would probobly be broken outright, hence, removing Espeon's partner, nessitateing an Espeon ban again*

But as long as Espeon is alone, we should ban not Baton Pass, not BP+MM, but the broken factor, which is Espeon.

 

[XienZo]

I really don't see how "a ton of players" starting to complain about Baton Pass suddenly makes it so broken.

If it's actually ANYWHERE near broken, why do 93%+ of teams not even use Espeon, the supposed "must-have" of a "broken" strategy? If it's really such a broken strategy, that's a ridiculous lot of irrational players that don't even utilize it in any shape or form.

 

[Molk]

@MoltenKyurem

'IF' baton pass is broken, people don't want to be forced into carrying the one Pokemon/Strategy that effectively counters it on all their teams. Although, this is assuming baton pass is used a lot in the first place, which it isn't.

that's the thing, baton pass isn't very common. so i dont get why so many people are compaining about it. if it really was such a big influence on the metagame wouldn't more people be using it? I thought bans were made due to overcentralization, if baton pass is worth banning why dont you see every other team having it? it doesn't really overcentralize the metagame at all. I barely even see it myself, and as i said before the opponent usually forfeits once espeon dies to sableye, and i dont use sableye just to counter baton pass, it just happens to do so.

 

[badabing]

Dragonite is nowhere near broken with any of its sets imo. LumDD has its Multiscale ripped away from it in Sandstorm and unless it runs Roost (losing coverage) it probably wont get more than one DD in. SubDD is on the same boat. Not to mention that SR completely circumvents his ability. Also, out of all the 4 sets you mentioned none are broken on their own and Dragonite can't be running all those moves at once.

LumDD usually plays as a lead to guarantee multiscale against anything bar fake out mienshao, but that argument was bad anyway b/c it can come in for free on a down even in sand.

I'm going to assume you are so fast to write off subDD because you have never played it. If any set is getting multiple dances that would be the one and notice how I said last poke so skarm can't phaze. Let everything die and massive comeback sweep.

SR is the most reliable way to get a check on dnite but remember it has this handy move called Roost that heals 50%. You can easily just run it with Exca or LO Starmie which are pretty much unblockable as spinners in this meta. Or any spinner for that matter given the lack of viable ghosts... Even Magic Mirror... So honestly SR isn't a good argument against it either, since in pokemon you are allowed to support it with five other pokes on a team :D

And my point about the wallbreaker still stands idk what you are saying. Ok i think i covered it. Any one else want to share their thoughts?

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

I can honestly say that I'm not surprised at all how the voting results turned out. It's obvious people wouldn't vote out the strategy that got them all voting reqs in the first place, and from the direction OU has gone from the past rounds. Good luck OU. Gooooood luck.

I'm pretty sure in pokemon noms, nothing will be banned. I bet thundurus will get a majority only. *rolls eyes*

 

[asdfrozen]

Wouldn't that get Thundurus banned anyway?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I'm surprised at the vast number of abstains for Baton Pass. Theoretically, if a large proportion of the abstains had been no ban (which hypothetically they would be as if a voter is on the fence they are supposed to vote no) and if some of the 6 non-voters had bvoted no ban it may not have reached suspect status. Obviously it could also have reached supermajority but my feeling is the former is closer to reality.

 

[Spenstar]

and so the weather continues.

Magic Bounce Espeon with BP isnt necessarily broken. Most of the shut-downs to BP still work on her. Perish Song, Haze, Dtail, ChoiceTrick, Memento, Ghost Curse, and an outright KO are still effective against it. Albeit most of those are fairly gimmicky, a different method still stops her cold. Espeon's awesome, sure, but not broken. Broken is flipping Excadrill.

 

[Nkululeko]

I really don't see how "a ton of players" starting to complain about Baton Pass suddenly makes it so broken.

If it's actually ANYWHERE near broken, why do 93%+ of teams not even use Espeon, the supposed "must-have" of a "broken" strategy? If it's really such a broken strategy, that's a ridiculous lot of irrational players that don't even utilize it in any shape or form.

Players complain about everything. If we gave in to whining on these threads we would be left with nothing but Little Cup.

However, your argument is wrong for one sole reason, popularity doesn't correlate with power or "broken-ness."

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

and so the weather continues.

Magic Bounce Espeon with BP isnt necessarily broken. Most of the shut-downs to BP still work on her. Perish Song, Haze, Dtail, ChoiceTrick, Memento, Ghost Curse, and an outright KO are still effective against it. Albeit most of those are fairly gimmicky, a different method still stops her cold. Espeon's awesome, sure, but not broken. Broken is flipping Excadrill.

Dragon Tail can't phaze Espeon if Espeon has a substitute. The only solid counter to BP is Haze, and the only Pokemon I have seen using Haze competitively is Milotic. Correct me if some Pokemon that isn't Milotic uses Haze competitively.