cloud's wifi/OU discussion thread

cloud

groove, slam, work it back, filter that baby, bump
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
this'll be my "initial thoughts and feelings on the DP OU metagame" topic. it's more of an article i guess. i'm bored and school is out. comments/questions are acceptable discussion. this is ALL personal experience and speculation. feel free to add your own thoughts and comments; i'm open to questions, too.

OH and my team, for reference's sake: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19382

Wifi is not like NB/Competitor. IVs are a mess and this causes huge problems with speedy Pokemon - Azelf, for instance, is not breedable and getting one with a good speed IV will always be difficult, probably too difficult for most people to care too much about. The same applies for defenses, too.

I've played a grand total of 19 (not including a few ridiculous matches against morons with ridiculously weak teams) matches so far, with about 14 of them being against decent players, with imported Pokemon they've had since the JPN release/GBA games.

Now, a lot of what the forums analyzed and predicted is true, but there are some variances as things stand right now.

Part I: Threats

Tyranitar is rampant; I'd say 10 of the battles I've had have had Tyranitar in them. Now the problem with these teams is that they didn't revolve around a traditional Storm strategy - they all packed Pokemon that didn't co-operate very well with Sandstorm. I doubt this is due to the lack of consideration gone into the teams, it's just that the metagame is too fast to pack a bunch of slow steels/rocks/grounds and hope you win. Now on one hand, Tyranitar is a bit of a bitch to battle. It's not very fast, especially with the random IVs, but it usually packs the standard Crunch/SE/EQ/Pursuit@CB set and that hurts. Tyranitar's SPDef boost is rather annoying; my Starmie (260 SPAtk) hovers a little below the (high?) 40-something mark in terms of damage on most Tars.

I personally don't think anyone is using Tyranitar to its full potential yet; it's hard to get it in there because mostly everything in this metagame hits so goddamn hard, but opening with it is very rewarding if you can catch a break against a relatively passive/weak starter. Nobody thus far has tried to control the weather outside of Sandstorm. Most people save it for when they need it and break it out, I assume to dampen the effect Sandstorm would have if they had otherwise opened with Tyranitar.

Rhyperior is another common Pokemon, but is only seen with Tyranitar every once in a while (Hippowdon is nowhere to be seen :^(). Rhyperior is a tank. When everyone established that it was going to be a force to reckon with, they weren't wrong. Rhyperior takes jack all from most physical attacks and just sits around all game. I personally think I make good use of it with Wish support, but it fits into any team even without Sandstorm. It can dish out a ridiculous amount of damage; the CB Rhyperior ohkos-2hkos pretty much everything on most teams. Again, IV variation lets heavy hitters do a lot of damage, even on mispredictions. My Rhyperior SE'd a Bronzong for around 40% once, it was amusing.

I've seen a good number of Garchomps, and they can be a HUGE pain in Sandstorm. Sand Veil is ridiculously annoying - WoW misses a lot in the storm, as does random stuff (read: Blissey/Starmie Ice Beams arghhhh). The standard set with Fire Fang does well, and does indeed hit hard, even without an SD (it does fine with Life Orb and Sandstream immunity). Garchomp has a bit of a hard time coming in though, as most things pack an Ice Move just because Dragons are so popular.

On that tangent, Life Orb is an amazingly useful item. It lets stuff that would normally need to SD or Nastly Plot save them for late game when things have been weakened. BUT, the recoil is a bit of a bitch, especially in a Sandstorm/SR heavy metagame. I'd be weary of it, but I'd also expect to see it a lot.

I'd say Heracross' place in the OU metagame is a bit iffy right now, and I say this simply because it's so difficult to get it in. EVERYTHING that does physical damage will hit Heracross hard, and Heracross just doesn't like switching in on anything except for the extremely passive Pokemon (ie. Bronzong, Blissey.. and even then, Blissey can TWave it, which, despite guts, is a bad thing for teams that don't pack Heal Bellers). Heracross doesn't have the same durability that Tyranitar and Rhyperior have. Teams will do well to pack a couple of counters for Hera, though, as when it does get in, it hits very very hard.

Interestingly enough, I've only faced off against two Gliscors. They were bad. Gliscor doesn't do well in an environment with CB SEs and Ice Beaming special attackers, and probably won't be showing its face much until we see more Heracross.

Electivire is a huge problem late-game (especially for my team, but I've noticed this to be a problem for other teams, too). If it gets a Speed+ and is carrying a Life Orb, you're going to need a very good counter to beat it. I've been abusing the fact that I pack Blissey and two Intimidators to my advantage, and have gotten myself out of a LOT of sticky situations against Electivire. I personally see Electivire being a HUGE threat in OU. So much so that Electric moves will probably see a decline, and we'll be seeing a lot of Electivire on Electivire speed races (and that Electivire's EV spread will change to 252 speed with +Speed-Def or -Spdef). I had a speed race between two Motored Electivire and mine lost, so I'm probably going to go 252 speed in a bit haha.

Speaking of late game, Infernape is not nearly as scary as everyone made it out to be, IMO. Starmie can switch in on it and be conserved for late game, if need be; Garchomp/Salamence/Gyarados can all do the same. It doesn't have the staying power to Nasty Plot effectively, but I can see it SDing on a free turn to ward off Gyarados and co. with TPunch/SE. I don't see this becoming too popular simply because it's too fragile and doesn't like being switched in.

Threats (cont'd)
 
Awesome post, cloud. Thanks for sharing your experiences and insights. What about Gyarados? Improved Taunt + easy breeding + (potentially fewer Electric attacks due to Electivire) indicate Gyarados should be very popular.

And has there been any real strategy developed yet? Or is it just Pokemon beating up on Pokemon?
 
Some flaws from your thing:

Heracross is easy to swap in from my experience. Blisseys/Cresselias are everywhere.

Electivire is surprisingly easy to stop IMO
 
How do you stop Electivire Jibaku?

Also I have some other questions about Wifi..

Does anyone at all use Skarmory? What about rapid spinners or psuedo hazers? I dont really see a lot in RMT topics.. Also Zapdos, Snorlax, Dugtrio or Raikou or any other calm mind users? And Celebi?

Have a nice day.
 
About the IVs thing, if something is breedable (i.e. non-legendary), it's not that difficult to get 3 perfect IVs in three stats, which is usually enough in most cases. More than 3 is difficult, though.
 
I used Cresselia. It completely lols at 'Vire
EDIT: Just got completely haxxxxxxxxed by Lupo Aro. A CH turned the entire match around

Yeah I use Skarmory
 
From what I've experienced, I want to say Raikou is a lot less viable, despite what it did to Jibaku's Blissey lol. There are a lot of things that will be whored out that simply shrug off its moves, like Swampert if Raikou carries HP Ice.
 
Excellent topic, cloud, look forward to part 2.

By the way, I'd like to use this post to apologize for my poor performance as a moderator as of late, but DP is awesome and I'm totally addicted. So yeah, hopefully that settles down in a week or so and I'll have more time for moderating.
 
Damn when i see threads like this i want to go to a store and rob one copy, but i have to wait just for ~7 days.

Anyway, a combination that scares me is Gyarados + Electivire, Gyarados automatically lures Electric Attacks, that's when it switches to Vire and Vire receives a nice Speed Boost.

So how many times have you fought against these combination??

Is Celebi seen at all??, because i'm planning on getting one because of my team having a Leech Seed weak when i send a wall ¬¬, and I guess that Celebi's Grass Rope should KO Rhyperior no??
 
I've fought Gyara + Electivire. They're pretty easy to deal with.
I use Thunderbolt Blissey to take on Gyarados. Then stupid 'Vire comes in and takes the Bolt. I go to Cresselia and he attacks, then I use Reflect and shrug off the hit while I wear down it's HP with repeated Ice Beams
 
Very interesting and enlightening read, cloud =]. Wifi doesn't sound bad at all, especially with much more variance among the same species.

I am also curious as to why some people are opting Waterfall over Aqua Tail in Gyarados? Is the slight accuracy difference that vital?
 
The average damage of Aqua Tail is 90 * .9 = 81, while Waterfall is 80 * 1 = 80. While Aqua Tail seems slightly better, the 20% flinch chance more than makes up for a 1BP deficiency.
 
Hm.... Seems that what we've been experiencing on the forums applies to Wi-Fi too. Originally it was Garchomp superhype. Then it was mostly Infernape, Heracross and Gyarados becoming harder to deal with. With the Sandstream change, TTar and Rhyperior became OMG ubers.

On to the more suprising elements. Electivire has always been one of those unexpected weaks. You counter everything else and then the either the standard Electivire or HP Grass Vire hti everything SE. Gliscor use is entirely dependent on Heracross use. It actually counters CBTar very well because of Sand Veil, if you run that.

Life Orb might be upsurbed by Expert Belt eventually. The recoil almost neccesitates Wish, unless it is a Ground or Steel type (Rock types take neutral from Stealth Rock).

Eh, I'll probably get Pearl tommorrow. I find it funny that most threats are evos of old pokes or just plain old pokes. Infernape and Garchomp are really the only entirely new threats.
 
I'm thinking most of the teams around here are designed mostly for Competitor. However, Wi-Fi could impact the metagame as to which pokemon are more commonly used, as it is already out and the pokemon are being tested

From your perspective Cloud, it seems as if you don't see most, if not any Azelf, Weavile, Metagross, Dragonite, Slowbro, Togekiss, Gengar, Lucario, Tauros, Dugtrio, Alakazam, Porygon-Z, Medicham, Staraptor, Suicune, Aerodactyl, Snorlax, Zapdos, Slaking, Ninjask, or Celebi, which are all on Jumpman's threat list. Of course, most of these get destroyed by Rhyperior/Garchomp/Tyrannitar/Electivire, which is why I think they aren't seen.
 
Because it's very difficult to get one Azelf with good SpAtk and Spd IVs, that's why it's not seen at all.
 
Is Celebi seen at all??, because i'm planning on getting one because of my team having a Leech Seed weak when i send a wall ¬¬, and I guess that Celebi's Grass Rope should KO Rhyperior no??

Celebi is not seen much because they're given out events and can't be bred/resetted for.
 
Has anyone tested out any pokes that are currently considered "UU/BL"? I'd like to know how non-standards fare in this metagame and which ones are viable choices.
 
It doesn't have the staying power to Nasty Plot effectively, but I can see it SDing on a free turn to ward off Gyarados and co. with TPunch/SE.

?????? Why has it the staying power to use Sword Dance, while not having the staying power to use Nasty Plot?

But i have to agree, that this is a great topic. Looking forward to part II, maybe with Gengar and Azelf....

@Ekans Dilos: Making tiers before the metagame has evolved isn't the best idea......
 
The average damage of Aqua Tail is 90 * .9 = 81, while Waterfall is 80 * 1 = 80. While Aqua Tail seems slightly better, the 20% flinch chance more than makes up for a 1BP deficiency.

Ah flinch x_x. Thanks Jibaku and Misty. I'm still surprised about the outcome at Wifi, though. I especially thought Tyranitar and Rhyperior to be hardpressed being slow and with increased powerful grass and fighting moves. But again, this is wifi, where availability of these moves are limited by TMs and tedious breeding.
 
Great thread.
I'm currently in the process of trying to make a team for WiFi. There are so many things I'd like to try, something like this really helps.
 
Discussion keeps the forums alive and makes me want to post more, so keep it up guys :^). I'll post in response to questions in a bit, but for now..

Part II: Threats (Cont'd)

I faced off against a single Dugtrio. Not particularly scary; most teams needn't worry unless they're packing Hera and/or an electric. Life Orb makes it more usable, I guess; flying types don't get a free switchin after an EQ, but overall Dugtrio is still a revenge Pokemon.

Weavile is far scarier than Dugtrio. It catches Gengar and other weak Pokemon on revenge kills, but does it a lot better than Dugtrio simply because of Ice STAB and STAB Pursuit. Ice has always been a good offensive type and it still is in this metagame. Pursuit + SR + Sandstorm is very handy against things like Blissey.

Lastly, in the physical threats department, I'm going to mention Gyarados. Gyarados is THE Pokemon to watch out for. It is simply a beastly Pokemon, and IMO, is the scariest Pokemon in OU. The way Taunt works now makes Pokemon like Bronzong think twice about staying in, and gives Gyarados a free turn to attack (to test the waters) or DD up. It can turn the tables or quite literally sweep with just one well-timed Taunt or DD; it can help against a sweeper with Intimidate and in general kicks all sorts of ass. I don't mean to overhype it, but Gyarados is ridiculously strong.

Take, for instance this last battle I had. My 100% Gyarados/30%ish Starmie/25% Salamence in the Storm against his Blissey/Jirachi/Manaphy/Rhyperior, all close to full health. Gyarados comes in after Jirachi kills something, DDs up once against Jirachi's SR (to get rid of my Sal, presumably) and sweeps; takes 40% from a CH Manaphy Grass Knot but other than that literally runs through the team.

Choice Specs Salamence has been treating me well; I haven't faced off against a SINGLE one myself, though. Does exactly what y'all thought it would: hits and runs like crazy. It's kind of hard to get it back in there, but it does it on EQ predictions and after KOs. I imagine if you could breed a Salamence with near perfect SpATK IVs you'd be OHKOing a lot of stuff with Draco Meteor.

Azelf is scary; Blissey can TWave it but it lives in constant fear of being Exploded on. And the problem with a lot of teams is that they depend on Blissey to fend off a lot, if not all of the opponent's special attacks. Azelf is going to be a very solid Pokemon, scary Pokemon with a huge trump card in Explosion, and I expect to see a lot more of them out there.

Starmie has been treating me well. Starmie is fast, hits hard enough and can take a couple of hits. It scares off the big bad Pokemon (Rhyperior, Gyarados, Garchomp, Tyranitar to an extent). The defensive spread it takes, however, doesn't leave any room for it to hit particulary hard - mine leaves me at 260 SPAtk/346 Speed.
 
I just got owned twice by Gyarados today. SePh's Gyara started haxing me with a flinch, and uhh....when Lupo's Raikou CHed my Blissey my hopes against Gyarados isn't that bright.

Cresselia is a powerful tank. It can take lots of hits, mess up Garchomp annd Electivire, heal up, set up screens or even trick room, and status
 
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