CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 4 - Stat Limits

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You have to remember that a BSR limit of, say, 175 in a defensive stat doesn't inherently imply "90 - 100" in that defensive stat. The BSR is calculated from the HP and defensive stat, just like how the offensive BSRs are based on both the speed factor and the attacking stats. I linked to threads I made to explain these things in the OP, and you need to read them if you want to understand both how these things work and why they're important.

This is a very tough decision for me, honestly. I've been going back and forth on a few things proposed in this thread so far, and I need a bit of time to think it through. I'll probably come back after work today and post again to specify the discussion a bit more. In the meantime, the types of posts I've been seeing (bar polljumping which reach posted about) are good and helpful.
 
So I have been lurking since start of CAP and I have to say its gone quite well.

On topic,

PS- On the better spectrum of good/lower spectrum of very good. I believe that a good Physical Attack wouldn't promote this pokemon to be a Sweeper seeing as he has better special options in terms of sweeping. Not breaking this pokemon is good but if we do this it should probably have a WoodHammer in main movepool alongside Shadow Claw. Good

PT- On the better spectrum of Above Average/lower spectrum of good. I think this stat should be where if I used Shell Smash a CB Scizor should be able to kill me via Bullet Punch. Otherwise though it should be a solid 2HKO. Considering also the threat of TTar's Fire Punch/Crunch It would be good if those had a very rare OHKO on Sketchy otherwise this thing is unstoppable. Let's not forget the WoW Sketchy will probably have in its movepool.Above Average

SS- Above Average. Giving Sketchy good SpA is a bad idea for fear of Quiver Dance completely breaking it alongside Sketchies already high SpD. It would make it versatile and deadly giving it access to STAB Judgments, non-STAB Judgments, and Hidden Powers that can provide Sketchy with great coverage.

ST- Very Good/Excellent. This Sketchy will need to resist Heatran and Hydregion's High powered Dark Pulses and Heatran's Lava Plume, Flamethrower, Overheat, and Fire Blasts.
I feel like letting back Heatran into the 1st place position it had last metagame would be a very bad idea. So instead of having a weakness to Skar, Jira, and Heat, just Jira and Skar.

Are speed and Hp being discussed in later topics? I feel they make a difference
 
Are speed and Hp being discussed in later topics? I feel they make a difference
PT and ST already take HP into account, and PS and SS already take Speed into account, at least if I'm understanding correctly. That's exactly why they're being called PS, PT, SS, and ST instead of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense; respectively they take into account more than just those stats.

ST- Very Good/Excellent. This Sketchy will need to resist Heatran and Hydregion's High powered Dark Pulses and Heatran's Lava Plume, Flamethrower, Overheat, and Fire Blasts.
Let's not be too hasty. If, just for example, Sketchy ends up with an ability like Flash Fire, then Heatran won't be able to threaten it as easily. Alternatively, if, again just for example, Sketchy ends up favoring physical attacks and ends up with an ability like Justified, then Hydreigon may have to think twice about going for Dark Pulse if it can't guarantee an OHKO. Future possibilities such as these that we have yet to even begin discussing are the reason that I've been saying we shouldn't necessarily assume the current possible threat list will stay intact.
 
I am very keen that we allow CAP2 to play many roles viably. Otherwise, we miss out on exploring the full potential of Sketch. But to allow multiple roles, we cannot simply balance stats alone without regard to the move options, typing, and prevalence of attacking types, and their bias towards either end of the physical/special spectrum. Taking these into account, I feel that what reachzero posted earlier is a good way to go.

An explanation behind the reasoning follows.

First, a look at the weaknesses/resistances/immunities for CAP2

This also takes into account, roughly, the most prevalent attacking types (correct me if there are inconsistencies here).

Legend: Very common | common | noteworthy | rare | very rare

Weaknesses: Fire, Ice, Dark, Flying, Ghost
Neutral Types: Dragon, Rock, Steel (only 'common' because of highly prevalent Bullet Punch), Bug, Psychic, Poison
Resisted Types: Ground, Water, Electric, Grass
Immunities: Fighting, Normal

Now about the Stat Lmits

We'll assume that we will never intentionally take any SE hit (unless going for a kill) and will only switch into Neutral / NVE / Immune hits.

Physical Tankiness - Above Average

We do not need any defense to switch into Fighting moves, and Ground is the only resisted type that is dominantly physical. As discussed earlier, it's a good idea to allow things like Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, and Pursuit to deal good damage against CAP2, as it maintains balance. I do not foresee the need to ever stay in on or switch into powerful Outrages and Stone edges, which will anyway 2HKO unless we give it Hippowdon-esque defense, which is not the purpose here. Other than BP, we have Meteor Mash and Iron head for Steel, both from Pokemon which we have already predicted to be fairly good checks.

To top this all off, CAP2 has access to WoW (unless we break Type-move conventions), Cosmic Power, and Cotton Guard if it wants to go the defensive route. Given all this, a Physical Tankiness of Above Average should suffice. A Good or Very Good in this department will actually encourage CAP2 to sweep more rather than go defensive, since it will be able to slough off attempted revenge kills and checks with far too much ease.

Special Tankiness - Very Good

The bulk of CAP2's switch-ins are going to come from Water, Electric, and Grass attacks, all of which are primarily on the special side. On top of this, there are no special priority moves that are effective against CAP2, so revenge will not be attempted on this side of the spectrum so easily. Give it too little ST, and it becomes too much of a glass cannon. On top of this, support options go out the window.

Physical Sweepiness - Good

Let's face it. Its SE STAB coverage isn't very high and is resisted by quite a few common OU poke's. So unless we give CAP2 some coverage moves on its own, it will be forced to Sketch them. UnSTABbed moves will rarely make much of an impact unless they're backed up by a high enough PS.

But we need to keep in mind that Swords Dance (which is likely natural due to Type-move conventions), Gear Shift, Shell Smash, and Coil are extremely potent moves. Grass/Ghost has enough physical options that going with a "Very Good" PS will make its sweeping options too good. Good seems to strike the best balance.

Special Sweepiness - Above Average

The mere presence of Quiver Dance and Tail Glow warrant this. Grass and Ghost are stronger on the special side, and naturally lend themselves to boosting moves. Additionally, we need not worry about coverage here due to the presence of Hidden Power, which further warrants caution.
 
You do realize Freeze Shock and Ice Burn can't be currently sketched because nothing learns either at the moment, right? Plus, the fact that since both have a charge turn like Sky Attack, their viability is questionable at best?

No I did not, checking Smogon's Movedex (for the second time) I was able to confirm the one turn charge requirement, plus it turns out both moves have a base damage of 140. I used 130 for the means of my calculations. This does, however, mean that so long as Sketchy has 95+ attack, HJK will ohko Hydregion 100% of the time.

My thought process was that if Freeze Shock and Ice Burn are moves built into the game, wouldn't they be callable through metronome and therefore sketchable?
 
just a note on type-move conventions regarding sword dance: no ghost type pokemon is capable of learning SD in any way IIRC, yet apparently all grass types get it. which way would that balance tip?
 
@ Equinox: Another reason that you need to be countered by (BAN ME PLEASE) and Hydra is that Jirachi and Skarm both share a weakness - that of Fire. Hydra and (BAN ME PLEASE) both resist a fire coverage move but if CAP2 can beat them with bulk then he'll be too able to clean sweep with STAB/Tail Glow/HP fire.
 
just a note on type-move conventions regarding sword dance: no ghost type pokemon is capable of learning SD in any way IIRC, yet apparently all grass types get it. which way would that balance tip?

I was tempted to call you on this, but after doing some searching, I've found that almost all grass types do in fact learn Swords Dance. Those I have found that counter this rule include Rotom-C, (who may or may not count, depending on how you look at it) Whimsicott, Amoonguss, Wormadam, and Simisage. Interestedly enough, baring pokemon with alternate forms, all grass pokemon that violate the rule are from 5th gen. The rule is pretty weird though, things like Cherrim, Ferrothorn, and Sunflora get Swords Dance.
 
Given CAP2 has Sketch, Type-Move conventions can basically be thrown out the window.

I wouldn't really use them as the basis for stat limits. Here's my considered opinion:

Physical Tankiness: Good

Stats don't exist in a vacuum. Although CAP2 does have some significant resistances, it also has a lot of weaknesses, and to be honest, anything using Shell Smash is Bullet Punch/Ice Shard weak. It has weaknesses to Shadow Sneak, Ice Shard, and Sucker Punch, and Scizor's boosted Bullet Punch is absurd. I think a little play room defensively is warranted.

Special Tankiness: Very Good

Special Attacks are a mite caliber higher than physical ones in general and with Fire, Ice, and Flying weaknesses, so additional special bulk is warranted. Even at that point, Very Good maxes at about Jirachi level. Not overpowering in the slightest.

Physical Sweepiness: Very Good

I think having the ability to up the Speed on CAP 2 is desirable, and physical boosters are weaker than special boosters for the purposes of bulky offense. Tail Glow is a very powerful special booster and doesn't require a high SpA score to be menacing.

Special Sweepiness: Above Average

On that note, to account for a higher possible speed, Special attacks can be curbed to an extent. Alternatively the Pokemon can be slower and have a decent Special Attack stat. Again, Tail Glow is quite powerful and the easiest to break, and these stat limits allow for a decently bulky Pokemon that can get a few chances to use Quiver Dance if necessary.
 
Given CAP2 has Sketch, Type-Move conventions can basically be thrown out the window.

I wouldn't really use them as the basis for stat limits. Here's my considered opinion:

Physical Tankiness: Good

Stats don't exist in a vacuum. Although CAP2 does have some significant resistances, it also has a lot of weaknesses, and to be honest, anything using Shell Smash is Bullet Punch/Ice Shard weak. It has weaknesses to Shadow Sneak, Ice Shard, and Sucker Punch, and Scizor's boosted Bullet Punch is absurd. I think a little play room defensively is warranted.

Special Tankiness: Very Good

Special Attacks are a mite caliber higher than physical ones in general and with Fire, Ice, and Flying weaknesses, so additional special bulk is warranted. Even at that point, Very Good maxes at about Jirachi level. Not overpowering in the slightest.

Physical Sweepiness: Very Good

I think having the ability to up the Speed on CAP 2 is desirable, and physical boosters are weaker than special boosters for the purposes of bulky offense. Tail Glow is a very powerful special booster and doesn't require a high SpA score to be menacing.

Special Sweepiness: Above Average

On that note, to account for a higher possible speed, Special attacks can be curbed to an extent. Alternatively the Pokemon can be slower and have a decent Special Attack stat. Again, Tail Glow is quite powerful and the easiest to break, and these stat limits allow for a decently bulky Pokemon that can get a few chances to use Quiver Dance if necessary.

I think that keeping the special sweepness at above average might be good, specifically because of Quiver Dance and the fact it might make this guy unstoppable with a stab resisted mainly by steel types. Which can be fixed by Sketch Fire Blast.

I agree with Deck Knights BSR
 
I think that keeping the special sweepness at above average might be good, specifically because of Quiver Dance and the fact it might make this guy unstoppable with a stab resisted mainly by steel types. Which can be fixed by Sketch Fire Blast.

I agree with Deck Knights BSR

The likelihood is it'd be HP Fire, not Fire Blast, as Quiver Dance would have to be sketched.
 
Our movepool building process is not entirely bound to flavor or whether it fits with the type. Don't make any assumptions (polljumping) on what moves will be in the final pool and stick to what the moves can do in relations to the stat limits.
 
Okay, now that we've handled the other stage, with my recap seen here, I will reopen this thread for discussion. Hopefully that slight delay hasn't put off any of the contributors, and perhaps the intermittent discussion we had has spurred a few new ideas!

For what it's worth, I will reset the "24 hour discussion duration" now that the thread has been reopened.

I know this is poll-jumping, but this was postet over 48 hours ago (Nov 22nd, 2011, 10:51:03 AM)...
Shouldn't this thread have been closed by now?
 
Physical Tankiness: Good

I don't think it should get much more defence than this. This way, it can survive some common moves but it still makes CAP2 vulnerable to payback, crunch,... .

Special Tankiness: Very Good/good

The most common weaknesses (ice and fire) are mostly special attacks. If we want CAP2 to be somewhat bulky, it has to has some decent special tankiness.
I also don't feel it's too overpowering, like Deck Knight said.
But I don't think it's good too compare it with jirachi. With acces to quiver dance it can easily gain sp. defence and make it more compatible to sweep. (of course with a physical sweeper this won't be used as much)
So I think a sp. defence simular to volcarona would fit perfect.
Also by giving it some nice sp. defence it would be able to serve as an excellent spin-blokker (for starmie and tentacruel)

Physical Sweepiness: Above average

I think CAP2 would serve alot better as a special sweeper then as a physical sweeper.
Gear shift is just too strong, even though this also depends on the moveset of the pokémon.
Yes, as a special sweeper it could have stronger stab moves, but that doesn't mean it would be able to learn them.
Also the chance of giving CAP2 acces to shadow sneak doesn't really look like a smart idea to me. I don't think we should decrease the power of latios/latias by doing so.

Special Sweepiness: Very good/good

As special sweeper looks just much more interesting to me. Being able to sweep some strong pokemon like Natorrei and hippodown could really be handy.
By making it a special sweeper, it will have some clear vulnerabilities to some classic OU pokemon (for example tyranitar).
This will make shure that it sertainly doesn't become too overpowering.
 
Even if the max limits of what Deck posted feels to high for me (at least defensively), I'll also throw my support behind his spread. When we make the actual stat spread, I'd rather see the BSR limit on the higher side, so we have a little more room to play, (you can always choose not to give maximum defences when actually submitting a stat spread,) instead of when we have the BSR limits too low and everyone will submit the same (maxed out) stat spread since Sketchy might be too underwhelming otherwise.

So throwing my support behind Deck (and Spork before him)
 
Physical Tankiness: Good

I don't think it should get much more defence than this. This way, it can survive some common moves but it still makes CAP2 vulnerable to payback, crunch,... .

Special Tankiness: Very Good/good

The most common weaknesses (ice and fire) are mostly special attacks. If we want CAP2 to be somewhat bulky, it has to has some decent special tankiness.
I also don't feel it's too overpowering, like Deck Knight said.
But I don't think it's good too compare it with jirachi. With acces to quiver dance it can easily gain sp. defence and make it more compatible to sweep. (of course with a physical sweeper this won't be used as much)
So I think a sp. defence simular to volcarona would fit perfect.
Also by giving it some nice sp. defence it would be able to serve as an excellent spin-blokker (for starmie and tentacruel)

Physical Sweepiness: Above average

I think CAP2 would serve alot better as a special sweeper then as a physical sweeper.
Gear shift is just too strong, even though this also depends on the moveset of the pokémon.
Yes, as a special sweeper it could have stronger stab moves, but that doesn't mean it would be able to learn them.
Also the chance of giving CAP2 acces to shadow sneak doesn't really look like a smart idea to me. I don't think we should decrease the power of latios/latias by doing so.

Special Sweepiness: Very good/good

As special sweeper looks just much more interesting to me. Being able to sweep some strong pokemon like Natorrei and hippodown could really be handy.
By making it a special sweeper, it will have some clear vulnerabilities to some classic OU pokemon (for example tyranitar).
This will make shure that it sertainly doesn't become too overpowering.


Tyranitar would have no prayer of stopping CAP2 if it received Very Good Special Sweepiness, and it would be hard pressed even if it received only Good. Remember, if you assume a base speed of 80 (and remember that we could go lower if we so desired as well as higher) Very Good would allow a base SpA of 124, while Good would allow a base SpA of 105. For reference, with Leftovers and no ability boost of any kind, a +1 (i.e. Quiver Danced) HP Fighting from a Timid CAP2 with 105 base SpA (the upper limit of Good) does 72.3% - 86.1% to SpD Tyranitar. A Tyranitar that takes that much damage is never switching into anything else again. If we make Special Sweepiness too high, Quiver Dance CAP2 will absolutely destroy stuff. Physical Sweepiness is much, much less of a problem due to lesser coverage and weaker boosting moves.
 
Can I ask an offtopic favor on behalf of all those that want to miss as few steps as possible in the process? Could the topic of the next phase be open for a bit longer than the usual 24 hours? It's always easy to miss a topic over the weekend, but it gets worse if the moment at which the topic opens becomes unpredictable, as it is now. Thanks in advance.
 
Tyranitar would have no prayer of stopping CAP2 if it received Very Good Special Sweepiness, and it would be hard pressed even if it received only Good. Remember, if you assume a base speed of 80 (and remember that we could go lower if we so desired as well as higher) Very Good would allow a base SpA of 124, while Good would allow a base SpA of 105. For reference, with Leftovers and no ability boost of any kind, a +1 (i.e. Quiver Danced) HP Fighting from a Timid CAP2 with 105 base SpA (the upper limit of Good) does 72.3% - 86.1% to SpD Tyranitar. A Tyranitar that takes that much damage is never switching into anything else again. If we make Special Sweepiness too high, Quiver Dance CAP2 will absolutely destroy stuff. Physical Sweepiness is much, much less of a problem due to lesser coverage and weaker boosting moves.

Although I never went as far as getting the facts and figures, this pretty much agrees with my gut feeling on this CAP. Too much Special Attack could potentially make this thing an unstoppable Beast whereas a bias on Physical Attacks limits it's stab while still keeping options open.
 
This is very tricky for me, because the limits set here will really play a huge role in the stages to come. It's also tricky for me because I've been working 9 hour days since opening this stage back up and haven't been able to get on IRC and discuss things or follow this thread as closely as I'd like.

This is such an important part of the CAP, especially for this CAP, that I need to have a lot of time to think this over. The posts in this thread have helped me a lot, but I don't want you guys to think I've forgotten about this. I am giving this my full attention, and it may take a day or two to ensure that I've gotten the right feel for what CAP 2 needs. If you want to continue talking, that's fine, but keep it to the topic at hand. Each post that reaffirms another helps me, and it's still possible that there is something that hasn't been said yet. Thanks for your patience!
 
I think Poor/Below Average Special Sweepiness has been decided. Otherwise a Quiver Dance can break this pokemon instantly

So then we should rely on Physical Sweepiness for a some STAB moves such as Woodhammer and hopefully some other version of Shadow Strike?

Special Tankiness should be high probably the highest stat because common switchins such as Heatran and Hydregion will be packing resistances and some Special Attacks to try and end this CAP with. 105-120

Physical Tankiness should be kept to about the 90-100 range. It will probably have WoW on top of resistances to Normal and Fighting and a resistance to Ground all of which are the most prominent physical attacking types (the first one less so then the others.)
 
This post will be stupid at first, but it becomes relevant, I promise.

On another forum I went to, we had our own CAP, of which was Ghost/Grass, and was more towards bulk than offense, but it wasn't weak. This was 4th Gen, however.

It had the amazing abilities Shield Dust and Immunity as well as the marvelous base stats of 121 / 55 / 127 / 90 / 103 / 64. It had every move it could've possibly desired in terms of support. Every Status. Subseed. Pain Split. Screens. Memento. Synthesis. Hell, if it was 5th Gen, we might've slapped Butterfly Dance on the thing due to its art style. That wasn't even close to the end of it either. It didn't even need Sketch if we wanted to give it the move.

This, my friends, is the full-out description of a BAD IDEA. Do NOT give this thing abnormally high overall bulk. Do NOT let it have an attacking stat that is respectable without a boosting move or with a move of obscene power. Do NOT allow it to fill nearly a dozen roles without even needing to touch sketch.

This is a good example of what NOT to do. What stats ARE far too high. What movepool IS too large.

This is learning from experience, my friends. Some are suggesting Attacking stats even past 100. Hell, experience says even a stat of 90 can be overwhelming.

Think of it this way. Back when we tested this, this CAP could counter TTar easier than TTar could counter it. That's just big bulk and decent SpA. That's not even abusing WoW, even though it could, many chose not to because nothing could dent it physically anyways without dying in the process.

We shouldn't be talking in the 100s or 110s or 120s, we should be talking in the 80s for attacking stats. Having "Very Good" stats at all is extremely dangerous for a CAP with a typing that potentially grants it to instant access to every good support move in the game, plus Sketch.

So yeah. Control yourselfs guys. This thing will break EVERYTHING in a heartbeat if you're not careful. Low SpA, moderate BUT NOT SUPER HIGH Bulk, and its speed only really applies as far as popular speed numbers for potential counters.

A lower in the spectrum Very Good Likely works for some combination for Physical and Special Tankiness.

Likely both Sweepinesses should be Above Average to allow Shell Smash, but one should be noticeably lower than the other. Likely Special Attack should fall just short to protect CAP2 from Butterfly Dance insta-wins.

Speed is negligible. It really is just "What threats do we allow it to outspeed, which ones do we not". Whatever works out in that regard, good luck.
 
Given CAP2 has Sketch, Type-Move conventions can basically be thrown out the window.

I wouldn't really use them as the basis for stat limits. Here's my considered opinion:

Physical Tankiness: Good

Stats don't exist in a vacuum. Although CAP2 does have some significant resistances, it also has a lot of weaknesses, and to be honest, anything using Shell Smash is Bullet Punch/Ice Shard weak. It has weaknesses to Shadow Sneak, Ice Shard, and Sucker Punch, and Scizor's boosted Bullet Punch is absurd. I think a little play room defensively is warranted.

Special Tankiness: Very Good

Special Attacks are a mite caliber higher than physical ones in general and with Fire, Ice, and Flying weaknesses, so additional special bulk is warranted. Even at that point, Very Good maxes at about Jirachi level. Not overpowering in the slightest.

Physical Sweepiness: Very Good

I think having the ability to up the Speed on CAP 2 is desirable, and physical boosters are weaker than special boosters for the purposes of bulky offense. Tail Glow is a very powerful special booster and doesn't require a high SpA score to be menacing.

Special Sweepiness: Above Average

On that note, to account for a higher possible speed, Special attacks can be curbed to an extent. Alternatively the Pokemon can be slower and have a decent Special Attack stat. Again, Tail Glow is quite powerful and the easiest to break, and these stat limits allow for a decently bulky Pokemon that can get a few chances to use Quiver Dance if necessary.
I throw full support for Deck's BSR. You dont want Sketchy (god, I cant wait for the name poll) to be tanking BPs, yet you dont want ot to fall from any old special attack. Physical sweeping is a bit more difficult with Grass/Ghost, so this will require some creativity, or mixed sets.
 
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