The thing with countering Pursuit is that bar Scizor, you could opt to kill most Pursuiters by other, better means (Tyranitar and Krookodile have nothing on Power Whip).
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CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 10 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion
- Thread starter Rising_Dusk
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The thing with countering Pursuit is that bar Scizor, you could opt to kill most Pursuiters by other, better means (Tyranitar and Krookodile have nothing on Power Whip).
An addendum regarding dual screens: Reflect pairs with Calm Mind (currently allowed) to make a very powerful bulky boosting set, perhaps sketching such a move as Aura Sphere, Vacuum Wave or even Lava Plume. Light Screen pairs with Will-O-Wisp to create a bulky tank that might utilize Horn Leech or Giga Drain along with sketched recovery or another utility move.
Both of these are very interesting sets that drive me even further towards allowing dual screens.
Both of these are very interesting sets that drive me even further towards allowing dual screens.
I really want to emphasize something that capefeather said in an earlier post.
Some people talked about disallowing Counter because of things like Pursuit. However, keep in mind who the only serious Pursuit users of OU are: Tyranitar, Scizor, and Metagross sometimes. Tyranitar is terrified of powerful physical Grass STAB and is OHKOed and outsped by physical CAP 2 packing Power Whip, while Scizor and Metagross both are wary of Sketched Fire-type coverage. Furthermore, Scizor is 99% of the time going to be using Bullet Punch against CAP 2 rather than attempt a measly Pursuit. Almost every Pokemon that tries to stop CAP 2 is going to attempt to do so by outright murdering CAP 2 with powerful physical moves.. Now that is a better reason to disallow Counter. I agree in general with this sentiment, and also because I do not think a CounterCoat set is appropriately abusive of Sketch (and thus distracts from the concept). For this reason, Counter is disallowed. However, most Pokemon are either OHKOing CAP 2 with potent special Fire-type STAB (Heatran) or are immune to Mirror Coat (Hydreigon). In general, it will be less valuable, and alone doesn't distract from the concept. Thus, Mirror Coat is allowed.
I also agree that we need a "one or the other" setup for Perish Song trapping. I think alone, both the 'trap' and the 'perish' are underwhelming. This is an interesting situation, since neither is really a problem and even together they're underwhelming (just distracting). For this reason, I'm not going to disallow either, I am going to disallow the combination of Perish Song + Block / Mean Look / Spider Web. This will hopefully achieve the desired effect without limiting whatever flavor movepool authors want to use. I guess this also opens up some movepool authors to making ugly egg move illegalities, but that's really their decision. I'm not quite set on this totally, so it's possible I may just move to disallowing one side of the coin or the other down the road.
Dual Screens is an interesting situation. I do not actually think CAP 2 is a very effective user of dual screens regardless. Every use of the moves I can think of is supplement to a Sketched coverage move or boosting move for interesting sets that do not seem overwhelming given CAP 2's natural coverage. CAP 2 also really doesn't get distracted from its concept, since maybe it would Sketch something interesting like Memento to complement a full dual screens set (although Latios still runs this set much better due to 110 Speed). That said, as a conclusion to this, I am going to allow both Light Screen and Reflect, but disallow Memento and Healing Wish. The disallowing of the latter two is to prevent crazy exclusive DS sets with suicide moves and no Sketch abuse. Just the screens themselves are not distracting, however, and so I've allowed them.
Lastly, there is the matter of Destiny Bond. While there seems to be a lot of push to disallow, I think it is an interesting supplement to Speed-boosting sweeping sets that would forgo a mission-critical coverage move in order to get a KO on something as the last ditch. Furthermore, it doesn't protect CAP 2 from Scizor's finishing Bullet Punch. Because the community is so opposite how I feel about the move, I will move Destiny Bond to controversial. Perhaps more discussion down the road will solidify it one way or the other.
I've added some new target discussion moves to the OP.
I agree with his sentiment here; full-on strategies facilitated through the presence of multiple moves on the movepool are a major distraction from the concept, and one we should avoid. That said, we need to keep in mind that "enough is enough" and I am not going to allow a wanton number of moves just because I can. You'll see my vision for full movepools soon enough, but suffice in the knowledge that I want them to be small and highly focused. Now onto the moves.
Some people talked about disallowing Counter because of things like Pursuit. However, keep in mind who the only serious Pursuit users of OU are: Tyranitar, Scizor, and Metagross sometimes. Tyranitar is terrified of powerful physical Grass STAB and is OHKOed and outsped by physical CAP 2 packing Power Whip, while Scizor and Metagross both are wary of Sketched Fire-type coverage. Furthermore, Scizor is 99% of the time going to be using Bullet Punch against CAP 2 rather than attempt a measly Pursuit. Almost every Pokemon that tries to stop CAP 2 is going to attempt to do so by outright murdering CAP 2 with powerful physical moves.. Now that is a better reason to disallow Counter. I agree in general with this sentiment, and also because I do not think a CounterCoat set is appropriately abusive of Sketch (and thus distracts from the concept). For this reason, Counter is disallowed. However, most Pokemon are either OHKOing CAP 2 with potent special Fire-type STAB (Heatran) or are immune to Mirror Coat (Hydreigon). In general, it will be less valuable, and alone doesn't distract from the concept. Thus, Mirror Coat is allowed.
I also agree that we need a "one or the other" setup for Perish Song trapping. I think alone, both the 'trap' and the 'perish' are underwhelming. This is an interesting situation, since neither is really a problem and even together they're underwhelming (just distracting). For this reason, I'm not going to disallow either, I am going to disallow the combination of Perish Song + Block / Mean Look / Spider Web. This will hopefully achieve the desired effect without limiting whatever flavor movepool authors want to use. I guess this also opens up some movepool authors to making ugly egg move illegalities, but that's really their decision. I'm not quite set on this totally, so it's possible I may just move to disallowing one side of the coin or the other down the road.
Dual Screens is an interesting situation. I do not actually think CAP 2 is a very effective user of dual screens regardless. Every use of the moves I can think of is supplement to a Sketched coverage move or boosting move for interesting sets that do not seem overwhelming given CAP 2's natural coverage. CAP 2 also really doesn't get distracted from its concept, since maybe it would Sketch something interesting like Memento to complement a full dual screens set (although Latios still runs this set much better due to 110 Speed). That said, as a conclusion to this, I am going to allow both Light Screen and Reflect, but disallow Memento and Healing Wish. The disallowing of the latter two is to prevent crazy exclusive DS sets with suicide moves and no Sketch abuse. Just the screens themselves are not distracting, however, and so I've allowed them.
Lastly, there is the matter of Destiny Bond. While there seems to be a lot of push to disallow, I think it is an interesting supplement to Speed-boosting sweeping sets that would forgo a mission-critical coverage move in order to get a KO on something as the last ditch. Furthermore, it doesn't protect CAP 2 from Scizor's finishing Bullet Punch. Because the community is so opposite how I feel about the move, I will move Destiny Bond to controversial. Perhaps more discussion down the road will solidify it one way or the other.
I've added some new target discussion moves to the OP.
There are a fair few reasons to include gravity actually. She can't make amazing use of it, but Necturna can make better use of it than most - whilst her base movepool lacks any ground moves, TSpikes + Gravity is pretty cool, and it's a nice boost to some of the innacurate moves she'll regularly carry, like Stone Edge and Power Whip. Sketch is the main attraction, though, and it expands her options in a wholly offensive way - Earthquake becomes a very attractive Sketch option (hits every main counter neutrally or better!), as do various special attacking options, such as Focus Blast, Magma Storm, Blizzard, or even something like Inferno or Zap Cannon. Gravity is still mostly just a gimmick, and is always somewhat difficult to use, but it does serve to both broaden the use of sketch, particularly specially (which only really seems to want to sketch QD atm), and keep her offensively orientated. Gravity + Sleep could be questionable though, especially since Sing/Grasswhistle has been allowed.
i really strongly believe that we should Allow Gravity.
It is very gimmicky, and so won't be particularly used, but it does make for some very interesting sketch possibilities, such as magma storm, zap cannon, dynamic punch, inferno. All of these are purely interesting options based off of sketch, so gravity should be allowed.
Trick room I think is much harder to decide on, but i think we should Disallow Trick Room. This is because trick room really doesn't encourage other sketch possibilities, and would probably just run sketched spore to get the turn to set it up. This doesn't fully explore sketch in my mind.
On the other hand though, it wouldn't be used much, so i dont really find it to be a real issue if it is allowed.
It is very gimmicky, and so won't be particularly used, but it does make for some very interesting sketch possibilities, such as magma storm, zap cannon, dynamic punch, inferno. All of these are purely interesting options based off of sketch, so gravity should be allowed.
Trick room I think is much harder to decide on, but i think we should Disallow Trick Room. This is because trick room really doesn't encourage other sketch possibilities, and would probably just run sketched spore to get the turn to set it up. This doesn't fully explore sketch in my mind.
On the other hand though, it wouldn't be used much, so i dont really find it to be a real issue if it is allowed.
I would like to see Destiny Bond Disallowed. Basically, the way I see it is that Heatran and Skarmory are two of the biggest counters/checks of Necturna. They are also two of the biggest checks/counters to Scizor. I don't think we should give Necturna the ability to Destiny Bond and clear the way for a Scizor sweep later. Maybe that's too specific, but it's just one example of a situation where I think Destiny Bond may be a little too much.
Why not? That just shows that Destiny Bond gives Necturna more options. She will still die against its checks.
That's why I'd like to see Destiny Bond allowed.
Just some additional points on that. We are waisting a turn using gravity whilst the opposing pokemon can either maim her, put her asleep, phrase her, taunt her, set up on her ...the list is endless and in a metagame where just one turn can grasp the tide of battle is gravity going to be a lot for her? On the other hand it stops skarmory from recovering and having to take super effective EQs and could make hydreigon less of a threat getting it down on the ground where the toxic spikes are. Although Gengar then can absord the toxic spikes, substitute and disable the EQ. With super effective STAB and high special attack down goes the necturna. Therefore gravity, in my opinion would make Gengar a brilliant yet unforeseen counter. Yea, forewarn that!
Gravity should be Allowed because a) it's not going to be that useful or overpowering, but more importantly b) it allows her to run more moves efficiently. However, Gravity + Any Sleep-enducing move should be disallowed. While 2 move slots for attacks might not seem so useful, she can sketch Earthquake, and with Gravity on the field, she can hit all of her counters for at least neutral damage with Earthquake. It might not give her very good coverage, but she definitely shouldn't be able to hit all of her counters neutrally with just one coverage move + STAB. While I don't think a set of Power Whip/Earthquake/Grass Whistle/Gravity would be all that common or effective, it's not a set that teaches us anything about Sketch.
I am of the belief that, if a Pokémon dies to KO a counter, it didn't actually break the definition of "counter". And that's pretty much what Necturna would be doing with Destiny Bond, and only against maybe one of its checks. It's reminiscent of Substitute+Explosion Heatran from gen 4 to me. I'd like to repeat my call to allow this move.
I agree with spork that Gravity has more potential to help the concept than to hurt it, even if it's small. Gravity should be allowed. As for Trick Room, I don't see how Necturna could use it effectively at all, for or against the concept. Same goes for the confusion moves and Endeavor. I mean, if Necturna had Sturdy or an immunity to sand or hail, that might be a bit more attention-grabbing, but as it is...
Haze could make for interesting defensive sets with Sketched Recover and Toxic Spikes or something of that nature.
I agree with spork that Gravity has more potential to help the concept than to hurt it, even if it's small. Gravity should be allowed. As for Trick Room, I don't see how Necturna could use it effectively at all, for or against the concept. Same goes for the confusion moves and Endeavor. I mean, if Necturna had Sturdy or an immunity to sand or hail, that might be a bit more attention-grabbing, but as it is...
Haze could make for interesting defensive sets with Sketched Recover and Toxic Spikes or something of that nature.
I see no reason not to Allow Haze.
None of Necturna's counters need stat boosts to do their jobs and none really boost anyways except for Dragonite, who would plow through her if it was already boosted anyways.
Plus, a set of Haze/W-o-W/Recovery(Sketch)/Attack would not hurt the concept. This set is similar to Standard Weezing.
You could also run one or both screens and haze with Sketched recovery.
The only downside is that any set with Haze probably has Sketched recovery unless we allow Pain Split, and even then recovery is better. Maybe this is too predictable?
None of Necturna's counters need stat boosts to do their jobs and none really boost anyways except for Dragonite, who would plow through her if it was already boosted anyways.
Plus, a set of Haze/W-o-W/Recovery(Sketch)/Attack would not hurt the concept. This set is similar to Standard Weezing.
You could also run one or both screens and haze with Sketched recovery.
The only downside is that any set with Haze probably has Sketched recovery unless we allow Pain Split, and even then recovery is better. Maybe this is too predictable?
EDIT: I made this comment when I was really tired. I'll come back and re-edit this post sometime tomorrow when I have my head screwed back on straight.
One thing we should consider is the possibility of a Trick Room + Belly Drum (sketch) set. Necturna can reach a minimum speed of 147, which is slow enough to outspeed most of the metagame. And many of the slower pokemon can't really attack it effectively, such as Conkeldurr and Ferrothorn. It can run Power Whip and Shadow Claw, and even hitting stuff for resisted damage it's going to do a lot with a +6 Attack stat of 372. Heatran is 2HKO'd by both STABs at +6, whilst Jirachi is OHKO'd by both and Skarmory takes over 40% from Shadow Claw. Dragonite is 2HKO'd through Multiscale by both attacks. All of these calcs are done with Leftovers, and all offensive pokemon will likely by OHKO'd.
Forgot about Ice Punch being banned :p
Forgot about Ice Punch being banned :p
^ I don't think that's too bad. First of all, it's a 2-turn setup, and you really have to use Trick Room first (and so you are losing 1 turn of Trick Room). They will be able to switch as you do and hit you as you Belly Drum. So you are banking on them not taking 50%.
2HKOing Heatran is not favorable when you're taking 2 turns to setup already and you'll be at 50% at best. Same with Skarmory. Looks like both Skarm and Heatran would be able to shut that set down.
Ice Punch is disallowed. In any case, you'd have to give up a STAB for it...
2HKOing Heatran is not favorable when you're taking 2 turns to setup already and you'll be at 50% at best. Same with Skarmory. Looks like both Skarm and Heatran would be able to shut that set down.
Ice Punch is disallowed. In any case, you'd have to give up a STAB for it...
Just saying, you can't run Trick Room/Belly Drum/Power Whip/Shadow Claw/Ice Punch.
Ice Punch is kinda redunandant anyway, especially as you out-slow Dragonite, and Rocks would turn those 2HKO's into OHKO's.
Well, at this point I've sort of come to the conclusion that there is no way to effectively argue either way for any of the moves that remain. They are all horribly situational and all lend themselves towards strategies that are either pointless and irrelevant or else perfectly available otherwise, through Sketch. More to the point, I'm pretty certain that the only reason you could decisively want any of these moves on or allowed for Necturna is if you had a particular set in mind already. That's no bad thing, but I do wonder whether it's worth the time we're spending on this.
With that said, however, I'd like to objectively view this. I'm against Gravity and Trick Room purely because they are individual-use, single-strategy moves that ought to be Sketched if they are going to be used, especially since they are team strategy moves above all else, and don't need any other moves to do what they're supposed to. Confusion moves I do not like because Necturna is undoubtedly going to be impossibly versatile anyway and the less annoying we can feasibly make it, the better. On a more serious note, purely in terms of competitive viability there is no reason to disallow it as it is hardly a distracting move, or even that viable anyway. I dislike Endeavour because of that low HP stat and the fact that nobody likes FEAR sets. But there's nothing wrong with it objectively. Haze I'd like to see as an option, for lack of pseudo-hazing, since I am against Circle Throw, Dragon Tail, Roar, and Whirlwind.
With that said, however, I'd like to objectively view this. I'm against Gravity and Trick Room purely because they are individual-use, single-strategy moves that ought to be Sketched if they are going to be used, especially since they are team strategy moves above all else, and don't need any other moves to do what they're supposed to. Confusion moves I do not like because Necturna is undoubtedly going to be impossibly versatile anyway and the less annoying we can feasibly make it, the better. On a more serious note, purely in terms of competitive viability there is no reason to disallow it as it is hardly a distracting move, or even that viable anyway. I dislike Endeavour because of that low HP stat and the fact that nobody likes FEAR sets. But there's nothing wrong with it objectively. Haze I'd like to see as an option, for lack of pseudo-hazing, since I am against Circle Throw, Dragon Tail, Roar, and Whirlwind.
I almost decided to edit my original post, but then I'd run the risk of it not being seen. I could make another separate comment stating that I edited my original post, but then I could have just made a new post in the first place like I'm doing.
We learn nothing about Sketch and its possible uses by using it on a setup move as an excuse to slap her on a random team. If Necturna were given access to Gravity and Trick Room without Sketch, then this opens up different playstyles and possibly different uses of Sketch. Set-up Pokemon don't need any extra moves to set up Gravity or Trick Room, but to be reliable and effective users of the move they usually have some other moves which makes their importance to the team more than just the set up move. For example, on a Gravity set one might see Earthquake or Hydro Pump sketched, or even cause Grasswhistle, Sing and Stun Spore to actually make sense due to Gravity's effects (which one can read up on here). Similarly, Trick Room opens up, if even by a long shot, Curse as a viable boosting move, or another support move to help out the Trick Room team.
Sketching Trick Room and Gravity is fine, but that doesn't mean that they are competitively viable. Gravity and Trick Room are mostly considered gimmicks, but having a powerful user of the two moves might actually add some weight to such teams. Access to Sketch while also having access to Gravity and Trick Room can potentially make her this powerful user of the move, and it would be cool to see how far the two moves can go. Thus, I see no reason why not to allow Gravity and Trick Room.
(Just a comment to the Belly Drum + Trick Room thing. If Necturna cannot OHKO a threat coming in to stop her, then said threat will immediately kill her. Remember that Belly Drum puts you at 50% health, making you much more vunerable to be KOed. Not OHKOing Heatran ensures certain death to a Flamethrower, as does an Outrage from Dragonite or even a Brave Bird from Skarmory. In fact, Skarmory outspeeds Necturna in Trick Room, meaning that she would have to survive two Brave Birds from Skarmory if she wanted to kill it)
On to the other moves. I don't like Confusion on Necturna; even if it won't be viable anyway, it doesn't add to Sketch (unless someone wants to run a Stun Spore/Teeter Dance/filler/Flinch set) and I think it just would serve to make her annoying if it ever were used. I dislike Endeavor for similar reasons. I think we should disallow Confusion moves and Endeavor.
Finally, I think allowing Haze would have no drawbacks. If the user wants to go full-on support with Necturna and try to Haze away boosters, go ahead. This would make her probably the best counter to Unaware Quagsire with Curse and Amnesia in the entire game.
I actually disagree with this statement. Maybe not everyone would follow this sentiment, but I believe that access to Sketch opens many doors in terms of playstyle, and in turn makes a very unpredictable Pokemon. While it is true that Gravity and Trick Room are individual use, and most Pokemon that use the move are usually on teams simply for their access to the move, we then see that Sketch is being used to access the moves. Inherently, this isn't a bad thing, but then we waste the one thing which makes Necturna such a wildcard on a setup move for another Pokemon.
We learn nothing about Sketch and its possible uses by using it on a setup move as an excuse to slap her on a random team. If Necturna were given access to Gravity and Trick Room without Sketch, then this opens up different playstyles and possibly different uses of Sketch. Set-up Pokemon don't need any extra moves to set up Gravity or Trick Room, but to be reliable and effective users of the move they usually have some other moves which makes their importance to the team more than just the set up move. For example, on a Gravity set one might see Earthquake or Hydro Pump sketched, or even cause Grasswhistle, Sing and Stun Spore to actually make sense due to Gravity's effects (which one can read up on here). Similarly, Trick Room opens up, if even by a long shot, Curse as a viable boosting move, or another support move to help out the Trick Room team.
Sketching Trick Room and Gravity is fine, but that doesn't mean that they are competitively viable. Gravity and Trick Room are mostly considered gimmicks, but having a powerful user of the two moves might actually add some weight to such teams. Access to Sketch while also having access to Gravity and Trick Room can potentially make her this powerful user of the move, and it would be cool to see how far the two moves can go. Thus, I see no reason why not to allow Gravity and Trick Room.
(Just a comment to the Belly Drum + Trick Room thing. If Necturna cannot OHKO a threat coming in to stop her, then said threat will immediately kill her. Remember that Belly Drum puts you at 50% health, making you much more vunerable to be KOed. Not OHKOing Heatran ensures certain death to a Flamethrower, as does an Outrage from Dragonite or even a Brave Bird from Skarmory. In fact, Skarmory outspeeds Necturna in Trick Room, meaning that she would have to survive two Brave Birds from Skarmory if she wanted to kill it)
On to the other moves. I don't like Confusion on Necturna; even if it won't be viable anyway, it doesn't add to Sketch (unless someone wants to run a Stun Spore/Teeter Dance/filler/Flinch set) and I think it just would serve to make her annoying if it ever were used. I dislike Endeavor for similar reasons. I think we should disallow Confusion moves and Endeavor.
Finally, I think allowing Haze would have no drawbacks. If the user wants to go full-on support with Necturna and try to Haze away boosters, go ahead. This would make her probably the best counter to Unaware Quagsire with Curse and Amnesia in the entire game.
Allow Trick Room and Haze
Neither does enough to break Necturna, while still allowing Sketch to shine. They both encourage a new strategy without distracting from the concept, so I can't see the harm.
Allow Destiny Bond
The best it can do is provide a way for Necturna to take out a counter. 1 for 1 suicide has never been a good strategy. If on a support set, it allows her a little leeway with an obligatory attacking move, so I really only see it as a creativity-encouraging inclusion.
Neither does enough to break Necturna, while still allowing Sketch to shine. They both encourage a new strategy without distracting from the concept, so I can't see the harm.
Allow Destiny Bond
The best it can do is provide a way for Necturna to take out a counter. 1 for 1 suicide has never been a good strategy. If on a support set, it allows her a little leeway with an obligatory attacking move, so I really only see it as a creativity-encouraging inclusion.
Disallow Trick Room and Gravity
Mainly for the reason stated above by bugmaniacbob. Trick Room + V-Create (Sketch) + STAB would be crazy hard to stop minus Heatran, who can easily be trapped by Dugtrio, making Necturna almost unbeatable. While of a lesser extent, Gravity + Dynamic Punch is something that allows Necturna to beat almost all of its main counters. Thus I am all for disallowing both of those moves.
Allow Confuse Ray / Teeter Dance
I would allow these moves mainly for diversity. Since Necturna is mainly going to be offensive, I would be interested to see how these moves could come into play.
Disallow Endeavor
Endeavor + Priority + Immune to Mach Punch / Vaccuum Wave / ExtremeSpeed. Kind of ridiculous imo.
Allow Haze
Adds in the possibility of a defensive set, since I feel Necturna has the potential to be a pretty cool Spin Blocker when combined with certain Pokemon (Heatran for example)
Mainly for the reason stated above by bugmaniacbob. Trick Room + V-Create (Sketch) + STAB would be crazy hard to stop minus Heatran, who can easily be trapped by Dugtrio, making Necturna almost unbeatable. While of a lesser extent, Gravity + Dynamic Punch is something that allows Necturna to beat almost all of its main counters. Thus I am all for disallowing both of those moves.
Allow Confuse Ray / Teeter Dance
I would allow these moves mainly for diversity. Since Necturna is mainly going to be offensive, I would be interested to see how these moves could come into play.
Disallow Endeavor
Endeavor + Priority + Immune to Mach Punch / Vaccuum Wave / ExtremeSpeed. Kind of ridiculous imo.
Allow Haze
Adds in the possibility of a defensive set, since I feel Necturna has the potential to be a pretty cool Spin Blocker when combined with certain Pokemon (Heatran for example)
I'm all for allowing Confuse Ray/Teeter Dance. These two moves aren't the best choices for Necturna, but they can help to "check" a counter. Also, because we are disallowing Thunder Wave/Glare, Parafusion strategies won't become annoying. However, they do seem somewhat extraneous, and I don't foresee their placement on too many movepool submissions.
I see no reason why Clear Smog shouldn't be allowed. Necturna certainly isn't going to waste this moveslot on a boosting set, and on a defensive set, it wont have the speed to get this move off before it is knocked out. Again, not the most viable option, but there is no reason to disallow Clear Smog.
Also, the Gravity + DynamicPunch issue is not a big deal, because the accuracy of DynamicPunch in Gravity is still only 82% accurate. It isnt worth wasting two moveslots to utilize, especially when you could just Sketch Close Combat. Therefore, I would allow Gravity.
I see no reason why Clear Smog shouldn't be allowed. Necturna certainly isn't going to waste this moveslot on a boosting set, and on a defensive set, it wont have the speed to get this move off before it is knocked out. Again, not the most viable option, but there is no reason to disallow Clear Smog.
Also, the Gravity + DynamicPunch issue is not a big deal, because the accuracy of DynamicPunch in Gravity is still only 82% accurate. It isnt worth wasting two moveslots to utilize, especially when you could just Sketch Close Combat. Therefore, I would allow Gravity.
Sorry we've been on this part of the discussion for as long as we have! If you haven't noticed, I spent 100% of yesterday releasing the newest issue of The Smog (check it out!), and so I was distracted. Now back to CAP stuff.
After reading the comments, I think I am going to allow Trick Room and Gravity. Neither of these moves inhibit strategies involving Sketch, and CAP 2 is actually a really terrible user of TR. Gravity is interesting because it might enable lower-accuracy Sketch options, though in all reality it will not get used seriously.
I won't disagree with users who dislike confusion moves because they're annoying. They are annoying. However, I feel that they are not particularly threatening, and even if CAP 2 ends up with parafusion, it wouldn't be too bad, or even that scary of a strategy. Still, these moves will create strategies that do not actually further Sketch usage at all. In-fact, people might not need Sketch at all with them. Thus I am going to currently disallow Confuse Ray and Teeter Dance. I feel this way about Endeavor too, but even more-so considering what has been said. Endeavor creates strange strategies that do not take advantage of Sketch at all, and rather try to get to 1 HP and reduce an opponent there as well. This is not what CAP 2 ought to be doing, and so I firmly disallow Endeavor.
There has been unanimous support for Haze, pretty much, and I don't disagree with any of them. Thus, Haze is allowed. Since we're allowing Haze, I'm also going to go ahead and allow Clear Smog in an identical vein.
Oh, and I allowed Magnet Rise because it is a terrible move for CAP 2 and while making no sense, it does nothing good or bad for Sketch and thus is kind of just there.
I've updated the OP with the next batch of target moves. This will cover a lot of what's left, and includes healing moves, status-restoring moves, and phazing moves.
After reading the comments, I think I am going to allow Trick Room and Gravity. Neither of these moves inhibit strategies involving Sketch, and CAP 2 is actually a really terrible user of TR. Gravity is interesting because it might enable lower-accuracy Sketch options, though in all reality it will not get used seriously.
I won't disagree with users who dislike confusion moves because they're annoying. They are annoying. However, I feel that they are not particularly threatening, and even if CAP 2 ends up with parafusion, it wouldn't be too bad, or even that scary of a strategy. Still, these moves will create strategies that do not actually further Sketch usage at all. In-fact, people might not need Sketch at all with them. Thus I am going to currently disallow Confuse Ray and Teeter Dance. I feel this way about Endeavor too, but even more-so considering what has been said. Endeavor creates strange strategies that do not take advantage of Sketch at all, and rather try to get to 1 HP and reduce an opponent there as well. This is not what CAP 2 ought to be doing, and so I firmly disallow Endeavor.
There has been unanimous support for Haze, pretty much, and I don't disagree with any of them. Thus, Haze is allowed. Since we're allowing Haze, I'm also going to go ahead and allow Clear Smog in an identical vein.
Oh, and I allowed Magnet Rise because it is a terrible move for CAP 2 and while making no sense, it does nothing good or bad for Sketch and thus is kind of just there.
I've updated the OP with the next batch of target moves. This will cover a lot of what's left, and includes healing moves, status-restoring moves, and phazing moves.
On recovery moves:
Moonlight / Morning Sun / Synthesis / Wish could be an interesting dilemma for the team builder. Do you Sketch Recover for more reliability, or do you use these risky/slow recovery moves to free up that wild card? Wish is especially interesting with this since it sucks for teammate healing and it would most likely be paired with Protect for that reason, if used at all. On the other hand, most teams aren't rain or sand, and against those teams, the sun-based recovery moves would be at least as good as the fixed recovery moves.
Pain Split might screw with checks but maybe that's fine if Necturna doesn't actually beat them.
On status healing:
The thing I fear about status healing moves is their use on bulky sweepers. I think that the competitive ability discussion ultimately forged a sort of agreement that status should be able to beat this CAP, at least if it's not using Rest. I'm inclined to have Aromatherapy, Heal Bell and Refresh disallowed, especially if the sun healing moves are allowed.
On phazing moves:
Phazing moves have potential to improve defensive sets a lot. I'm considering sets to the tune of Sketch / Toxic Spikes / Phaze / STAB. This could fit the concept quite nicely, but perhaps there will be objections based on the sheer potential of such a set. I don't like Circle Throw or Dragon Tail, though, since they hit checks pretty hard.
Finally:
I would like to have Ingrain allowed. The main combo I'm considering here is Ingrain + Baton Pass (Sketch). I actually don't like Baton Pass that much but I think this is a pretty cool use of Sketch.
Moonlight / Morning Sun / Synthesis / Wish could be an interesting dilemma for the team builder. Do you Sketch Recover for more reliability, or do you use these risky/slow recovery moves to free up that wild card? Wish is especially interesting with this since it sucks for teammate healing and it would most likely be paired with Protect for that reason, if used at all. On the other hand, most teams aren't rain or sand, and against those teams, the sun-based recovery moves would be at least as good as the fixed recovery moves.
Pain Split might screw with checks but maybe that's fine if Necturna doesn't actually beat them.
On status healing:
The thing I fear about status healing moves is their use on bulky sweepers. I think that the competitive ability discussion ultimately forged a sort of agreement that status should be able to beat this CAP, at least if it's not using Rest. I'm inclined to have Aromatherapy, Heal Bell and Refresh disallowed, especially if the sun healing moves are allowed.
On phazing moves:
Phazing moves have potential to improve defensive sets a lot. I'm considering sets to the tune of Sketch / Toxic Spikes / Phaze / STAB. This could fit the concept quite nicely, but perhaps there will be objections based on the sheer potential of such a set. I don't like Circle Throw or Dragon Tail, though, since they hit checks pretty hard.
Finally:
I would like to have Ingrain allowed. The main combo I'm considering here is Ingrain + Baton Pass (Sketch). I actually don't like Baton Pass that much but I think this is a pretty cool use of Sketch.
In terms of healing moves, I don't really think that Morning Sun/Synthesis/Moonlight are needed if we allow Wish. Since Protect is mandatory, allowing Wish would give Necturna a reliable way of healing as well as a way to help her team. I personally find nothing wrong with Wish + Protect, and unless someone convinces me otherwise I strongly think that we allow Wish and disallow Morning Sun/Synthesis/Moonlight (the aforementioned healing moves also give Necturna somewhat of a weather bias, if you care about that). I would also allow Pain Split because it also serves as a form of healing for Necturna, albiet an unreliable one. Since this is a bulky offense Pokemon, she should be able to take a hit from most Pokemon and then turn it against them effectively.
I would say no to phazing moves. Haze already removes stat boosts, and the only other thing phazing does that Haze doesn't is force out an opponent. The only avenue I can see where that is beneficial is if you wanted to stack up on residual damage. A stall team wanting to utilize Necturna for that purpose can Sketch those moves.
Disallow Ingrain. If you want Necturna to be immune to phazing moves then Baton Pass this to her using the other Pokemon that learns Sketch. Necturna is too powerful of a sweeper to give her a free Leftovers and phazing immunity with one turn.
Disallow Refresh. Once again, Necturna is a very powerful sweeper, and I don't think we should give her a 20 PP move which relieves her from a potential burn or paralysis for free. I'm not so sure about Aromatherapy and Heal Bell though. While these also relieve status, they can't be spammed like Refresh can. Rather, these serve to be more of support roles. I'm still indecisive about these.
These are just my first impressions of the moves. It's very possible that I could change my mind given the right arguments, but I think mine are solid enough.
EDIT: The problem I see with Ingrain + Baton Pass is that I honestly think it won't be used that much. Most of the time Baton Pass is used to pass multiple boosts and other things to a strong sweeper. The issue here is that Necturna is a strong sweeper. I still stand by my point that something with this much potential shouldn't have the ability to give itself free healing and phazing immunity.
I would say no to phazing moves. Haze already removes stat boosts, and the only other thing phazing does that Haze doesn't is force out an opponent. The only avenue I can see where that is beneficial is if you wanted to stack up on residual damage. A stall team wanting to utilize Necturna for that purpose can Sketch those moves.
Disallow Ingrain. If you want Necturna to be immune to phazing moves then Baton Pass this to her using the other Pokemon that learns Sketch. Necturna is too powerful of a sweeper to give her a free Leftovers and phazing immunity with one turn.
Disallow Refresh. Once again, Necturna is a very powerful sweeper, and I don't think we should give her a 20 PP move which relieves her from a potential burn or paralysis for free. I'm not so sure about Aromatherapy and Heal Bell though. While these also relieve status, they can't be spammed like Refresh can. Rather, these serve to be more of support roles. I'm still indecisive about these.
These are just my first impressions of the moves. It's very possible that I could change my mind given the right arguments, but I think mine are solid enough.
EDIT: The problem I see with Ingrain + Baton Pass is that I honestly think it won't be used that much. Most of the time Baton Pass is used to pass multiple boosts and other things to a strong sweeper. The issue here is that Necturna is a strong sweeper. I still stand by my point that something with this much potential shouldn't have the ability to give itself free healing and phazing immunity.
I think you're overestimating Ingrain. Are you thinking of something like Sketch / Ingrain / STAB / Rest? None of Necturna's checks are forced to phaze her out unless things get really out of hand (which it usually shouldn't). Ingrain does too little in a short amount of time to justify its use over any recovery move outside of Sketched Baton Pass.
- Status