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np: UU Stage 5 - Every Rose Has Its Thorns
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Magic Coat does come with its own set of disadvantages in that you cant stop recovery or setup sweepers, and players can knowingly abuse this fact to make Deoxys-D setup bait. I think it's best to just take your chances on faster Taunters (of which there are not many) and stick with the superior move.
Well, to be honest, he's already set-up bait for pretty much any sweeper that has substitute anyway, so I think that magic coat is viable option, and can definetely get you another free couple of layers of hazards.
Night Shade breaks the sub of any common setup sweeper in UU and if he Taunts on the Sub, they can't set up boosts. The only common Sub users that can beat him at all are the ones with super effective STABs that threaten him to begin with like Heracross or Chandelure. Good luck setting up on him with literally anything else.
If your opponent knows if you have seismic toss or toxic or if he just guesses right on the 50/50 chance, then he can just set up with his boosting move of choice and sweep as it's very rare (and often not very clever) to carry both toss and toxic/t-wave. I'm talking mostly of houndoom and mismagius here. He's also set up bait for stuff that doesn't care about toxic or thunderwave, such as escavalier (I congratulate you if you have the guts to taunt this thing).
Even if you do taunt it on the sub, chances are, you'll be having to face a super effective STAB move from it, seeing as the most popular choices for a sub-sweeper are dark, ghost, or bug.
Even if you do taunt it on the sub, chances are, you'll be having to face a super effective STAB move from it, seeing as the most popular choices for a sub-sweeper are dark, ghost, or bug.
Both extremely rare and frankly not very effective Pokemon. Houndoom doesn't use Substitute anyway, and Taunt is the better choice for catching them on the switch to prevent them from setting up. Common sub sweepers like Raikou and Cobalion can't beat him with any of their free turns.
Since when does Escavalier set up
Unstabbed, unboosted Ghost/Bug moves are not a threat to Deoxys-D. HP Ghost for coverage from Cobalion, Leftovers X-Scissor, etc. These are all non-threatening moves when they're not boosted and Deoxys can easily break their subs, recover, and come out on top. So far, the theory that Deoxys-D is set up on by 'pretty much anything with a Substitute' is not holding any water.
I think we're getting a little off-topic here though. The point is that Magic Coat is not a bad move by any means, but it's severely outclassed by Taunt in most respects and can be exploited for free turns once your opponent figures out you have it. It's only use imo, is in the lead matchup, which assumes that your opponent will boldly lead with their own Deoxys-D or setup mon instead of something that can threaten you.
That's a fair point about them being rare, but they're not uneffective. Mismagius perhaps as it lacks a strong STAB move but houndoom has worked really well for me in my experience, anyway I digress.
Escavalier sets up when it's not holding a choice band as it's movepool is very limited anway and you'll probably only be using megahorn/pursuit/iron head leaving a slot open for such cases if their fire type is gone or if he's burned. It's still a viable option over substitute in my opinion.
I said super effective STAB moves, not unSTABed, such as escavalier's megahorn, houndoom's dark pulse, and mismagius' shadow ball, which are still going to hurt a lot even without a +2 boost.
It was an exageration that everything with substitute sets up on it, but in the fast paced dangerous enviroment of UU (at least from what I've seen of it recently) deoxys-D is still a pretty ripe target in comparison.
Escavalier sets up when it's not holding a choice band as it's movepool is very limited anway and you'll probably only be using megahorn/pursuit/iron head leaving a slot open for such cases if their fire type is gone or if he's burned. It's still a viable option over substitute in my opinion.
I said super effective STAB moves, not unSTABed, such as escavalier's megahorn, houndoom's dark pulse, and mismagius' shadow ball, which are still going to hurt a lot even without a +2 boost.
It was an exageration that everything with substitute sets up on it, but in the fast paced dangerous enviroment of UU (at least from what I've seen of it recently) deoxys-D is still a pretty ripe target in comparison.
But apparently the best Deo-D sets don't even use Seismic Toss or Night Shade, they use Toxic or Twave instead. Regardless, even if it runs Seismic Toss, I think you still can set up on it with other stuff, like a Mew with boosting moves who can carry Taunt itself. Or you could go with something like Raikou, switching in on the Spikes and then using Calm Mind as Deo-D uses Taunt. All you have to do is wait for a Shadow Ball crit.
I'm going to take Flare's opinion on that with a grain of salt. I don't find value in Pokemon that don't have any attacking moves. There are far too many ways to bypass them or screw them over. On top of that, in a last-mon situation, they are absolutely useless. I've clutched out many games, or have seen people clutch them out with Deoxys-D just stalling teams out the way it naturally does: Taunt, Seismic Toss/Night Shade, Recover. If you read your opponent well enough, you can catch their Krookodile or Escavalier coming in with Night Shade and then switch out, limiting their switch-in opportunities with hazards in effect.
There are a lot of things you can beat this way. I would recommend having an attacking move on Deoxys-D at all times. Even if it's Thunderbolt just to surprise enemy Xatu, it's something.
@ Spuds: Getting back on topic, Substitute attackers aren't an excuse to pass up on what should usually be the better move (Taunt). Magic Coat can catch an unaware opponent by surprise, but it's not going to be very useful when they send in something to set up Swords Dance or Calm Minds in your face when you should have been able to stop them with Taunt.
I don't really think Taunt outclasses Magic Coat but I still would never use it over Taunt for a few reasons. First off, the only reason I'd use Magic Coat is if I was really hazard weak and I was lacking hazards myself. Well why not just slap on a Xatu then who needs less guess work to use than Magic Coat?
Also if I am using Deoxys-D I am expecting something very reliable. The amount of foresight a player needs to consistently keep on reflecting back status and hazards is just too much. You don't need to reflect that back if you have a Deoxys-D since you can just set up your own hazards and status them yourself if you really want.
I am pretty sure using Magic Coat alone would not guarantee you beating every Spiker and Taunter. You would still have to guess when to use Magic Coat after the first time you surprise them with it because they could hit back, pokes like Froslass or Mismagius. As for the Spikers you have Froslass beating you again still and most of the rare Spikers too. Scolipede and Accelegor are who I am talking about, granted I basically never see them.
@SJCrew, I didn't say that magic coat was the better move, and I agree that taunt is generally the better option. Just saying that he is often a free substitute/boosting move for faster sweepers as most won't mind being taunted after getting a sub up or at +2.
Magic Coat also won't prevent your opponent from running SR. After you bounce it back they'll just keep spamming it until you do something else. Even though the moves have even PP all they have to do is choose an attack once in 32 turns to get 1 PP ahead; then they can keep using SR until it gets up. I guess it's slightly better than both mons setting up SR on turn 1 because you get a switch, though. Also the same isn't true of spikes because you the damage isn't already done after 1 turn.
So, fire types.
Playing over the past few weeks I've noticed that Chandy and Darmatian seem to completely dominate the niche for fire types nowadays, with the odd Victini or even Houndoom occasionally thrown into the mix. Arcanine is MIA and has been ever since Darm dropped down.....but oddly enough Rotom-H usage seems to have plummeted recently, which is something I find baffling.
Playing over the past few weeks I've noticed that Chandy and Darmatian seem to completely dominate the niche for fire types nowadays, with the odd Victini or even Houndoom occasionally thrown into the mix. Arcanine is MIA and has been ever since Darm dropped down.....but oddly enough Rotom-H usage seems to have plummeted recently, which is something I find baffling.
The drop in rotom-H is what i find more peculiar than arcanine. Arcanine offensively is out done by darmanitan while also being walled by chandelure. Rotom-H however has hugs boons that separate him from his fire companions mainly his electric typing and all its advantages while having the ability to out speed Heracross. Houndoom also needs more love, although i would love to see him drop to ru he has a great niche in countering the other fire types while killing ghosts to allow for spinning.
Also Taunt>Magic Coat 80% of the time
Also Taunt>Magic Coat 80% of the time
Magic Coat never goes over Taunt - that latter is irreplaceable. Magic Coat would usually go over Night Shade or Stealth Rock (if you have another SR mon). Magic Coat gives Deo-D a slight advantage against other Deo-D without Magic Coat, since it bypasses Speed ties to reflect the opposing Deo-D's Taunt. It can also help against Sableye's Prankster Taunt, although Chandelure is the #1 ghost atm. It also provides protection from Roserade's Sleep Powder / Spikes / Toxic Spikes without risking a speed tie.
Night Shade is still useful for wearing down mons, especially Rapid Spinners and other Spikers, in conjunction with hazards laid by Deoxys-D and Taunt. However, Magic Coat does provide some extra edge when it comes to laying down hazards and preventing the opponent from setting up.
Night Shade is still useful for wearing down mons, especially Rapid Spinners and other Spikers, in conjunction with hazards laid by Deoxys-D and Taunt. However, Magic Coat does provide some extra edge when it comes to laying down hazards and preventing the opponent from setting up.
I can't speak for others, but I used Arcanine because I needed a Fire-type that is bulky, not vulnerable to Pursuit, and has priority. ExtremeSpeed, its abilities, and its bulk are what make it worth using over Darma, although it's pretty damn sad that LO Arcanine's Flare Blitz is weaker than Scarf Darma's....
Speaking of usage trends, has anyone noticed a substantial increase in Gligar?
Arcanine definitely does have some advantages. I am just saying that I can see why one would opt for the more powerful fire types.
And yes, I am not sure what caused it but gligar is popping up everywhere and is truly a monster to physical pokemon while also being able to take some special hits. What annoys me the most however is sand veil. Nothing like missing 5 ice punches on a gligar. As far as using him, I have found gligar to be a premier physical wall but having 4 moveslot syndrome. If only he could run a few more moves.
Yeah, Arcanine is losing stock and Gligar is gaining big.
I tried Arcanine in my main team before, and man is it underwhelming. It's not that bulky, it can't check Chandelure, it can't hit hard without Life Orb, and it has four moveslot syndrome out the ass. It's honestly pretty bad in this meta and if you want a real fire type just use Darmanitan.
Gligar, however, is great. I use it a ton and it should be a staple in UU as far as I'm concerned. It's decently fast for a wall, has great typing (Spikes+TSpikes immunity), gets Stealth Rock, Taunt, and recovery, and still has one decent attacking option. It can even use Baton Pass if you're a real asshole and use Baton Pass.
Anything with great typing and 500 Defense is good enough for me.
I tried Arcanine in my main team before, and man is it underwhelming. It's not that bulky, it can't check Chandelure, it can't hit hard without Life Orb, and it has four moveslot syndrome out the ass. It's honestly pretty bad in this meta and if you want a real fire type just use Darmanitan.
Gligar, however, is great. I use it a ton and it should be a staple in UU as far as I'm concerned. It's decently fast for a wall, has great typing (Spikes+TSpikes immunity), gets Stealth Rock, Taunt, and recovery, and still has one decent attacking option. It can even use Baton Pass if you're a real asshole and use Baton Pass.
Anything with great typing and 500 Defense is good enough for me.
I wouldnt say I am the main cause of it, but every team i build now-a-days have a gilgar on it. Gligar's that poke that can fit onto literally any team and does its job extremely well. Im fairly confused why its RU to begin with. lol anyone trolling around with sandviel gligar? possibly the most annoying thing to fight since only certain specific moves take it down. And it definitely doesnt suffer 4MSS. Depending on your team depends on the set. Sub isnt needed if your not running Sandstorm and Stealth rock isnt needed if you already have a user. 4 moves are perfect for him and all he needs
If I were to run Arcanine at all I'd run a Choice Band set, which doesn't compromise his bulk or coverage while giving him the strongest possible ExtremeSpeed to abuse (which is the only reason you would ever run him in the first place). Even then you're hitting about as hard as Scarf Darm and Chandy checks you very easily.
I've been seeing more Gligar but I'm skeptical about his efficacy. He's slower than Roserade and Deoxys-D, which is devastating, and unlike other successful ground types in this tier (Donphan, Hippodown), he has a very weak attack stat.
I've been seeing more Gligar but I'm skeptical about his efficacy. He's slower than Roserade and Deoxys-D, which is devastating, and unlike other successful ground types in this tier (Donphan, Hippodown), he has a very weak attack stat.
No there is actually another reason to use Arcanine if you really think about it. Consider how ridiculously bulky anything is after Intimidate, just look at Qwilfish, a piece of sushi with a poor BST can wall basically any physical attacker it isn't weak to. And then you realize that Arcanine actually already has good bulk if it isn't killing itself with recoil and Close Combat even before Intimidate. I've been using Arcanine on a full stall team, yes the team works and it topped the ladder for you doubters. Arcanine can wall a truckload of physical attackers including but not limited to Heracross, Cobalion, Weavile and Darmantian. Even if Cobalion uses Swords Dance+Stone Edge you won't be KOd or if Darmantian has a Choice Band EQ. It can then even further increase its bulk by burning stuff, for instance it takes less than 50% from Rhyperior's EQ with intimidate and burn. If you feel burn isn't useful it can cripple so called counters with Toxic. Utility is not limited there, its the only Fire I can think of that can phaze and for a wall, it poses huge offense. It makes a fine switch in to Sableye who can dismantle stall teams by spamming Flare Blitz until it crits or burns Sableye. No other Fire poke can be so defensive.
edit: I've been using a set like this btw
Arcanine (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 236 Def / 16 SDef / 8 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Roar
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flare Blitz
- Morning Sun
I fully realize that an offensive set could not wall what I listed above nearly as well. The EVs are to get a nice 200SDef because it looks prettier than an odd number and the Spd is for the speed creep. This thing is bulkier than the most physically bulky Hippowdon to keep things in perspective, with Intimidate.
edit: I've been using a set like this btw
Arcanine (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 236 Def / 16 SDef / 8 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Roar
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flare Blitz
- Morning Sun
I fully realize that an offensive set could not wall what I listed above nearly as well. The EVs are to get a nice 200SDef because it looks prettier than an odd number and the Spd is for the speed creep. This thing is bulkier than the most physically bulky Hippowdon to keep things in perspective, with Intimidate.
Arcanine's weakness to Stealth Rock and mediocre recovery option really cuts into its ability to be a wall. I can see that set switching into the likes of Victini and Darmanitan, but with only Flare Blitz and an 8 PP recovery move to answer them, I'd rather have Toxic over WoW to whittle them down assuredly, and stall out Chandelure, Milotic, and possibly Gligar if you catch them switching in.
I haven't played properly in a few months, mainly due to the loss of Stall and rise of spikers, but I'll probably return once Deoxys-D is voted on.
Glad that Gligar is rising up the ranks though, imo the best physical wall in the tier bar perhaps Slowbro and also a great pivot for hyper offense. Now if only Misdreavus got more usage...
Glad that Gligar is rising up the ranks though, imo the best physical wall in the tier bar perhaps Slowbro and also a great pivot for hyper offense. Now if only Misdreavus got more usage...
Well I should have clarified, being affected by every single hazards, doubly so by Rocks, means that using a spinner is as mandatory for this Arcanine as would be for a team with Specs Yanmega and Charizard. I am not sure if you understand how bulky this thing is though with Intimidate, it takes more from switching into Rocks than Vicitini's Adamant Scarf V-Create. It actually does a fine job of beating Darmantian and Victini since they usually run a Scarf set so not only do they do little damage but they have to constantly eat Rock damage too.
I use Will-o-Wisp because I already have Toxic Spikes, which work nicely even with Roserade running around btw, and I can easily counter the things Toxic would hit. I think I'd agree that Toxic is usually better though since is more badly cripples a wide range of things.
I've never actually understood that. Why the hell would you give a Choice Scarf to something whose best move lowers its speed? V-create immediately disqualifies you from doing any kind of lategame sweeping. You'd have to run something like Flare Blitz in the last slot, which does shit damage coming from only 100 base attack. The first thing I think of when I go to use Victini is Choice Band. It's a tried and true classic for sure, but if you're capable of reading your opponent even a little bit, one good prediction is all you need to ensure the rest of the game is safe for spamming V-create. With Spikes up, God save us.
The ubiquity of Krookodile these days is probably the only reason I don't have it on every team. I don't like 50/50 guessing games.
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