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np: UU Stage 6 - No Surprises

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Why not nominate Sand Stream instead of Sand Veil? Sand Stream is a ridiculously overpowered ability that makes Gligar and Stoutland two of the best pokemon in the tier when they would otherwise be RU or lower. Nominating Sand Veil by itself is saying that every pokemon that gets Sand Veil is broken when this discussion is really only about Gligar, the only UU Sand Veil pokemon.

Sand Veil Cacturne and Sandslash are not broken by any stretch of the imagination. Drought and Snow Warning are already banned in UU so we have a precedent. It's only one ability on one pokemon so it is not a complex ban. I think Sand Stream is the best solution here for the UU Senate to vote on.
 
jrrrrrrr said:
Why not nominate Sand Stream instead of Sand Veil? Sand Stream is a ridiculously overpowered ability that makes Gligar and Stoutland two of the best pokemon in the tier when they would otherwise be RU or lower. Nominating Sand Veil by itself is saying that every pokemon that gets Sand Veil is broken when this discussion is really only about Gligar, the only UU Sand Veil pokemon.

Sand Veil Cacturne and Sandslash are not broken by any stretch of the imagination. Drought and Snow Warning are already banned in UU so we have a precedent. It's only one ability on one pokemon so it is not a complex ban. I think Sand Stream is the best solution here for the UU Senate to vote on.
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For 2 reasons.

First of all Sand Stream is not broken. Stoutland is manageable as 90% of the players here agree, and the passive damage that it provides are no big deal. Not saying they are not good, or very good, but not broken material.

The second reason is that Sand Veil is not accused of breaking Gligar or any other user of it, just for making the game shit, with it's ability to completely change the course of a battle and shift momentum.
 
You can't just ban something because you do not like it........Sand Veil is not broken, therefor should not be banned. Now, if Gligar broken then ban it. There is no reason Cacturne should not have to suffer for Gligar's crimes. Honestly if Gligar is a problem, well then ban Gligar. Guess what? If you do that, then outside of the rare Sandslash and Cacturne, which are no where near broken even with a miss, you will never see it, and people can still use those two with there full move sets.
 
I've said it once and I'll say it again. SV is not necessarily broken, you're probably not going get cleanly swept by a gligar or cacturne because of one miss, but getting that last sweeper to miss just as you're about to finish them and they roost is so annoying and will often mean a game. As well as this, it's uncompetitive and adds in an even larger luck factor which the meta-game did not ask for. It's not going to make or is making a huge difference to the meta-game, just causing rage for good reason, I don't see what the big deal with banning it is. I don't think it would be fair to ban gligar, the best physical wall in the tier, just because some people have no shame when using him.
 
Yeah... no.

Sand Veil isn't making Gligar a big deal to deal with, the real problem is missing against random fucking Cacturne four times in a row. Gligar has very little offensive presence, so missing against it 1-2 times is usually manageable. Cacturne, on the other hand, can actually use those free turns to set up Swords Dances and beat your face in with STAB Sucker Punch and recover its health with Drain Punch. I realize it sounds absurd to say that fucking Cacturne of all things is what's pissing me off, but just last week I literally missed 4 times in a row against it when I would have won the game if I hit it even once. Happened again yesterday, but it was only 2 misses. Both times I lost 20+ points because POs rating system is dumb.

Sand Veil in general is just retarded--there's a reason Evasion Clause exists, so I genuinely don't see why we're allowing evasion on our ladder(s).

Anyway, I want to reply to jrrrrrrr's post:

If you can prove that Sand Stream itself causes damage to the integrity of the metagame in one way or another, then I'm sure the senate will support you. Personally, I believe that sand hurts the metagame by essentially neutralizing the viability of Pokemon which use Morning Sun / Moonlight / Synthesis as their recovery method and by discouraging the use of Life Orb on certain sweepers (think LO Raikou / Azelf--they're still good, but not as good as they 'should' be). Then there's also the fact that everything that can take Stoutland's hits reliably is walled to shit by Gligar... which has forced me to use HP Ice Cobalion

So yeah, if Sand Stream was to be proposed as the suspect, then I'd back it on those grounds. I would never back Stoutland as a suspect though, because 1. it requires way too much team support to become overwhelming, and 2. it's really just a mediocre attacker with poor coverage which happens to have a good ability.
 
Sand Stream is nowhere near broken. Let's look at the top top three abusers of Sand Stream.

1. Stoutland
How to counter: Use a Steel or Rock type with decent defense.

2. Rhyperior
How to counter: Any Water or Grass move will almost certainly kill it. It even loses to Blastoise's Scald.

3. Gligar
Pretty annoying, but not uncompetative. Just stick Hidden Power Ice on e. g. Flygon and scare the shit out of Gligars.

C'mon people. It shouldn't take Jackson Pollock to solve this simple problem. We have been far too ban happy, and we need to sedate ourselves before we go too far.
 
TheBaron said:
Sand Stream is nowhere near broken. Let's look at the top top three abusers of Sand Stream.

1. Stoutland
How to counter: Use a Steel or Rock type with decent defense.

2. Rhyperior
How to counter: Any Water or Grass move will almost certainly kill it. It even loses to Blastoise's Scald.

3. Gligar
Pretty annoying, but not uncompetative. Just stick Hidden Power Ice on e. g. Flygon and scare the shit out of Gligars.

C'mon people. It shouldn't take Jackson Pollock to solve this simple problem. We have been far too ban happy, and we need to sedate ourselves before we go too far.
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I will respond to your gligar part:

Firstly I don't see how sand veil hax is not uncompetitive. When games are simply decided simply by the RNG, rather than how well a person plays, there is indeed a problem. Gligar doesn't sweep teams 6-0 on its own. But it can definitely remove some key Pokemon, like bulky water types(who are suppoed to "counter" Gligar) by simply abusing hax!

Hp ice flygon? um no, that sounds like a bad idea to me. Fire punch is better.

Btw, hp ice and pretty much every other attack has stone edge level accuracy. Good luck with hitting gligar. 20% strikes in a lot more often then people think it does.
 
TheBaron said:
Sand Stream is nowhere near broken. Let's look at the top top three abusers of Sand Stream.

1. Stoutland
How to counter: Use a Steel or Rock type with decent defense.

2. Rhyperior
How to counter: Any Water or Grass move will almost certainly kill it. It even loses to Blastoise's Scald.

3. Gligar
Pretty annoying, but not uncompetative. Just stick Hidden Power Ice on e. g. Flygon and scare the shit out of Gligars.

C'mon people. It shouldn't take Jackson Pollock to solve this simple problem. We have been far too ban happy, and we need to sedate ourselves before we go too far.
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lol -.-

1st: I will give you that point, the problem is that sand teams are not only stoutland

2nd: since when is Rhyperior used on sand teams? Yes, those moves kill but try to switch in on something like CB Earthquake/Megahorn. Aside the fact that Blastoise's Scald doesn't KO Rhyperior on Sandstorm while Rhyperior 2HKO's Blastoise.

3rd: that's nice till you realize flygon needs really heavy investment on SpA or/and a boosting item to 2hko Gligar, and the fact that you're having to almost lose an slot only to lure and kill gligar, and then having a pokemon with little usefulness (consider what it could be doing or what you could be using on that slot)
 
Your points are valid. I use a Mix Flygon so I see Flygon as a mixed attacker even though it usually isn't. Has anyone considered using Ice Fang Stoutland? I am taking Ice Fang into serious consideration as a possible choice over Pursuit.
 
TheBaron said:
Your points are valid. I use a Mix Flygon so I see Flygon as a mixed attacker even though it usually isn't. Has anyone considered using Ice Fang Stoutland? I am taking Ice Fang into serious consideration as a possible choice over Pursuit.
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Ice fang has zero use outside of attacking gligar, and with stoutland the only real strategy is spam return, as all other moves are really to weak to be choice locked into.
 
The QWAZ said:
Ice fang has zero use outside of attacking gligar, and with stoutland the only real strategy is spam return, as all other moves are really to weak to be choice locked into.
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Wrong. Ice Fang can also be used to score a guaranteed one-hit KO one of the most used Pokémon in the tier. Unfortunately for Stoutland, this is something Return cannot boast. Also, Stoutland can kill many-a-Ghost (especially those dastardly Subby Ghost Types; oh I hate them so) with his powerful Crunch or Pursuit on a switch.
 
TheBaron said:
Wrong. Ice Fang can also be used to score a guaranteed one-hit KO one of the most used Pokémon in the tier. Unfortunately for Stoutland, this is something Return cannot boast. Also, Stoutland can kill many-a-Ghost (especially those dastardly Subby Ghost Types; oh I hate them so) with his powerful Crunch or Pursuit on a switch.
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What is this pokemon?

Also the Ghost types=Sableye beats you still, Dusclops beats you still which is like two out of not so much more than two ghosts.
 
stoutland is not that bad to beat... sableye > stoutland 75% of the time

ice fang is shit and has 0 uses outside of gligar (with which you can might as well use your 5 other pokes for)

also screw this i'm just gonna quote the analysis

Stoutland analysis said:
Ice Fang deals heavy damage to Gligar and OHKOes Torterra, but that's about the only notable coverage it offers.
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i've no idea what ghost are you talking about... mismagius?
who the fuck keeps mismagius in on stoutland
even if stoutland comes in on missy mismagius should probably have a sub up, even pursuit cant kill while it can either switch safely or burn stoutland
 
I decided to make a running joke over at MSPA Forums using Sand Veil as the punchline. Every time someone said they were "in lesbians" with something, I calc'd Sand Veil before popping a blood vessel from the fact Scott Pilgrim v. the World was referenced and it wasn't Evil Exes (I abhor everything else about SPvTW). Most of the time I calc'd Sand Veil... it failed and I popped a blood vessel.

Misshax is the only reason anybody proposed that Durant not be banned from RU, and people are using misshax as an excuse to try and screw Jynx out of being in a tier she clearly doesn't belong in (and is flat-out too good for - NU). Might as well say "lolnope Focus Blast sux, it misses 25% of the time" - most Pokes use Focus Blast as coverage, mind.

Please. Stop. Mods and other higher authority people have asked for the same thing.

Anyway, I can back down on Stoutland not being quite broken. It's still a great Pokemon on its own, for its coverage may not be much compared to Mew, but it is sufficient in order for it to do proper revengekilling (which is its main job, regardless of weather).

Still, I'd like to see Roserade get (at least) Suspected before B2W2. It's way too easy to make a team dedicated to her still, with other hazards also taking centre stage in dedicated teams (HELLO NURSE, I mean Bronzong) (and she monopolizes several roles - I hardly see any Shaymin or Tangrowth because of her). I've amalgamated several of her sets into one tiny burrito that is usually effective. I also haven't seen Sand hardly anywhere in UU.

I will continue tinkering with my team, though. I'm a little hazy on whether or not I still want to ban Kingdra (mostly because of that Rain Dance set, which loves the Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rocks from Roserade and Bronzong, respectively) and Snorlax (it's a Gen II Uber, and has been OU otherwise) from UU. When people start using phazers, I will reconsider my stance on CurseLax's persistence in effectiveness.
 
TheBaron said:
My goodness. Is a 95% chance of a 1HKO on Flygon worth nothing?
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95% is not 100%. Sure, it's a guaranteed OHKO when you factor in hazards, but if you don't like Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Stealth Rock, one should simply stick to using Weavile if they want a hard counter to Flygon. Furthermore, running Ice Fang just for Flygon and Gligar, when Stoutland is likelier to run into Cobalion and other Steel-types who can be maimed with Fire Fang, is just silly. Its coverage is good, but there are obvious choices when you use coverage.
 
Holy balls. I'm pretty sure it was mentioned before, but shoving Toxic on Technitop is killer. Technitop's draw is its ability to decimate HO, and its weaknesses are tanks. Toxic kills its common switches like Dusclops, Gligar, and Sableye. I feel bad for bashing Technitop earlier. With Toxic, it's very good at its job.
 
My mistake, I did not see the "one"

Here's CB Frustration vs Flygon, though: 91.7% - 108%. So 97.35% minimum after 1 switch into SR...

So yeah, the point stands, Ice Fang is bad on Stoutland.
 
So...

MEW's still got it. Specifically the Nasty Plot set. After a single boost, the opposing team struggles to get a hold of it. I tested Azelf too, and while he may have been faster / stronger, he just didn't have Mew's bulk. I gleefully smile when I face off against a team that doesn't run Pokemon that naturally outspeed Mew since its really hard to straight up counter. Somewhat perturbed by the fact that Mew itself is still #13 when it should be in top 5. I'm sure you've heard this a 1000 times, but it isn't any less true!!!
 
^Another reason why SpDefensive Slowking is a boss! The best that Mew can do to him is 71.25% - 83.97% with a Modest LO Giga Drain, while you D-Tail him out, and recover back to full life after just 2 switches! Of 'course D-Tail misses suck bot nothing is perfect...
 
Somewhere awhile ago, I think DetriotLolCat mentioned a HP Ice on SD Cobalion set. This was a smart decision and should be the standard on cobalion sets now. I remember back in early OU DP when Lucario had a very difficult time getting past Gliscor(before Platinum move tutors). The solution was easily fixed by adding HP Ice to Lucario to not only get past gliscor but catch salamence on the switch in. The same logic can be applied to Cobalion right now in UU. Its main counter gligar takes about 84.1% - 100.4% from Naive HP Ice Cobalion. Its been really exciting using this in play and should be used more often with this major increase in gligar usage. Im guilty too though of using gligar. Its just that great of a wall.
 
I'm here to agree with Ace Emerald about toxic on Technitop, the only problem is that losing Sucker Punch gives you a lot harder time against Psychic types, and has to compete with Stone Edge's ability to KO Zapdos, Chandelure, Yanmega, and Venomoth.

Toxic still hurts all of them minus Venomoth, but is the best you can do against Sableye, Slowbro/King, Gligar, and Dusclops.

Technitop is amazing at what it does, and it's checks/counters are all beaten by the correct wild card move.
 
jamashawalker said:
Somewhere awhile ago, I think DetriotLolCat mentioned a HP Ice on SD Cobalion set. This was a smart decision and should be the standard on cobalion sets now. I remember back in early OU DP when Lucario had a very difficult time getting past Gliscor(before Platinum move tutors). The solution was easily fixed by adding HP Ice to Lucario to not only get past gliscor but catch salamence on the switch in. The same logic can be applied to Cobalion right now in UU. Its main counter gligar takes about 84.1% - 100.4% from Naive HP Ice Cobalion. Its been really exciting using this in play and should be used more often with this major increase in gligar usage. Im guilty too though of using gligar. Its just that great of a wall.
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The problem with Swords Dance Cobalion is, what move are you skipping to add Hp Ice? Losing Stone Edge means Zapdos/Chandelure set up on you, while losing Iron Head/X-Scissor means bulky Psychic types laugh at you. I usually like running CC/Stone Edge/Iron Head as that coverage is only 100% walled by Slowbro, Qwilfish and somewhat Gligar (which you can beat with a bit of luck on your side). I'm not saying Hp Ice is bad, but Cobalion is only getting past 1 of its counters with Hp Ice, which is something that pretty much sucks because it still gets horribly walled...
 
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