np: UU Stage 6 - No Surprises

[FlareBlitz]

^ He meant the 1337 stats are inherently unreliable because there's always someone who ladders a ton and skews them. Keep in mind, the battles in 1337 are... not that many. We should try to make the ladder more active or ask Antar to use a lower cutoff (even ~1300 would help a ton).

Anyway, we can't move forward with Sand Veil until the other senate members start being more active (its finals week so yeah). As of now, I know 3 of us support a ban on it and 1 of us does not; I'm completely in the dark about what Upstart, ToF, and Heysup think. On top of this, there seems to be some sort of political bullshit going on in the upper echelons of Smogon about "why we ban things" and since this is a pretty controversial topic, its going to be hard to push it through.

On the subject of Spikes...

While I don't think Spikes are as dominating as they were when Deoxys was around, they're still around, and they're still a bitch to deal with. Even if this has been the case since ADV (GSC is a shit), Roserade sets up on a ton of the metagame, and its not as easy to take advantage of those turns like people are making it sound. Keep in mind, Rose still has that ridiculous 125 base SpA to work with and that one of its STABs poisons 30% of the time. Trying to set up say... SubCM Raikou on it... is not going to work out.

Then there's the offensive set, which just tears everyone a new asshole every time it gets a safe switchin. Seriously, even 252/252+ Snorlax gets 2HKO'd by Modest LO Sludge Bomb -> Leaf Storm with a little previous damage (Rose does't need Timid). By itself, its "just another nuke" but here's the catch: Aside from Chandelure, Crobat, and maybe Cobalion (it does not like LO Leaf Storms) the things you would switch into the offensive set to try to take hits become setup bait for the Spikes set while the things you would switch into the Spikes set just get straight up raped by the LO set. Top it all off with the fact that Roserade can literally come in for free on any team that uses a bulky Water, turning them into liabilities.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Between its devastating offensive set and its ease of setting up Spikes, Roserade is easily suspect material (I'm operating under the assumption that people will once day realize that "suspect" does not necessarily == "ban", so bear with me here).

To summarize where I stand as a senator:

• I support a ban on Sand as a whole because I think it makes the meta shit, but will settle for a ban on Sand Veil.
• I support a suspecting on Roserade because I believe its offensive capabilities in addition to its support capabilities make it "a little too good." Whether I would actually vote to ban it is a whole different story.

I actually agree with you with respect to Roserade, but not because of Spikes. I think roserade's spikes set is its worst set by far.

The offensive set, on the other hand, is absurdly threatening. Roserade has a quick Sleep Powder, extremely powerful STABs with good coverage off a very high SpA stat, Natural Cure to evade status, and a serviceable special defense that allows it to switch in even on bulky water ice beams. The new sleep mechanics mean that Sleep Powder is essentially a free kill - you catch something on the switch with Sleep Powder and even if you can't really harm it (say, a Chandelure) you can just switch to something like Flygon to force it out, essentially removing it from the match. This means that even Roserade's offensive "counters" are not really counters until sleep clause is active.

I would not be opposed to suspecting Roserade, but it would be on the grounds of its offensive set, and even that would be almost entirely because of sleep powder. And if someone tells me to run a resttalk snorlax on my offensive team I am going to tear them a structurally superfluous hole.

 

[/B/utterfree]

And if someone tells me to run a resttalk snorlax on my offensive team I am going to tear them a structurally superfluous hole.

I also agree with this above statement, for I abhor RestTalk in general.

RestTalk is immensely gimmicky, and only works on Pokes who can afford to waste two moveslots on the combination. Pokemon that have limited enough movepools to run RestTalk viably include Milotic (who gets away with it because of Marvel Scale - otherwise my personal experiences with RestTalk Milotic make trying to pull it off again nightmarish at best) and Shuckle (who loses the chance to hit things after a Power Swap, or something else key to its success). With the new Sleep mechanics, RestTalk becomes more and more of a gimmick that is otherwise dead weight on many teams. Even without the Sleep mechanics, a RestTalk set on many of the Pokes who would be good with RestTalk become Taunt bait to Whimsicott, or any other good Prankster (i.e. Volbeat), or even something that doesn't care about RestTalk sets (Crobat).

/endrant

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Is there you leave out Crustle which sits at just under 2.3%? All of them use Spikes. Also Accelegor gets just under a tiny 0.1%.

Anyways I have problem with looking at 1337 stats only, isn't that exceedingly arrogant? That is not to mention people on the fringes of 1337 still are not very good. I understand that top tiered players know what they are doing and it would naturally follow their stats are the most relevant. But 1337 is such a tiny player base, maybe only a few dozen people qualify for it which can hardly represent hundreds of players using hundreds of Pokemon.

I didn't think Crustle got significant usage in UU, honestly, so I left him out. I was just trying to capture the general feel for the best three Spikers in UU.

I guess if you add Crustle then 25% of teams use Spikes. I used the 1337 stats instead of the regular stats because I felt that the 1337 stats were more relevant when deciding on how a Pokemon affects the metagame. Obviously both the regular and 1337 stats have their respective problems (regular stats are skewed by players who aren't very good while 1337 stats are skewed by a small player base), but I went with the 1337 stats because I felt it was more of a snapshot of the UU metagame at the moment.

Plus, I doubt the two numbers are that far apart. In fact, let me calculate using the regular stats.

Roserade: 51.4% use Spikes, 21.762% of teams
Froslass: 90.7% use Spikes, 6.324% of teams
Qwilfish: 85.3% use Spikes, 2.320% of teams
Scolipede: 64.7% use Spikes, 1.180% of teams
Crustle: 81.9% use Spikes, 1.066% of teams
Omastar: 41.5% use Spikes, 1.867% of teams
Smeargle: 22.0% use Spikes, 1.586% of teams

Grand total? Rounded to the nearest .1%, 22.4%.

22.4% of UU teams use Spikes. This number holds constant for both regular users and 1337 users.

 

[destinyunknown]

I approve of Suspecting Roserade. While I would go farther and just vote a ban for Roserade, if it at least gets Suspected, the chance of it being banned will be high. Roserade as a Pokemon is much too versatile for UU (I literally just combined every set on Smogon into one set that I use - bulky Toxic Spikes Special sweeper: all the bacon in the worlde couldn't save you now).

Well, the standard toxic spikes set is already pretty offensive so I don't see the difference too much, bar the fact you run just a bit of extra bulk, but is not such a huge difference really. Btw, I don't think Toxic Spikes is the real concern when talking about Roserade, as Toxic Spikes are imo (and I'm probably not the only one who thinks that) are fairly worse in UU than Spikes, mainly because Toxic Spikes are much easily removed (especially considering how common Roserade, Qwilfish and the Nidos are) and Spikes are in general better for offensive teams since they capitalize more on making the opponent switch and take hazards damage than just staying there waiting for poison to take its toll.

Once Roserade is (hopefully) gone, the UU metagame will be closer to meeting my hunger for balance in it. Screw Sand Veil, that's not really important (the only true user of it in UU is an NFE Pokemon who is absurdly easy to kill - I don't have trouble with it at all). Sand as a playstyle has lessened in popularity when I last played UU (a little less than a week ago).

Why it would be closer to balance without Roserade? I mean, you have been saying that for months (4-5 at least, and probably more but I don't remember) but you have never said the reasoning behind that, and I mean a real reasoning, not just ''Roserade is extremely powerful''
Why isn't Sand Veil important? Since when is Gligar easy to kill? Why being an NFE means it is bad (or that's what you're trying to say at least)? Since when does the usage means something is (not) broken?

I have four Pokes on my team who generally do not find Gligar to be challenging whatsoever:

1. Gligar's easiness to kill stems from me generally OHKOing it using a Life Orb-boosted (doesn't even have to be Rain-boosted to net the KO) Surf from my Kingdra; however, that is only my primary way of dealing with it. Since when does Gligar stays in against Kingdra

2. I also wall it with Bronzong and nab a clean 2HKO with Macho Brace-boosted Gyro Balls, or hit something else on the switch with EQ/Payback. I set up Trick Room while it fails to hit with Earthquake/Toxic, or while it Roosts. That's simply false, Bronzong can't 2HKO without Gyro Ball :evan:, and Gligar can outstall Bronzong (if it has substitute) more often that not, or set up Stealth Rock and simply switch on something like Milotic

3. My Snorlax also sets up on it (I use the ability Immunity and a CurseLax set that goes with it) to laugh at the NFE scorpion's face and eventually KO it with a +2/+4 STAB Return.Genius idea. I mean, why the heck would anybody use Immunity Snorlax on a metagame with threats like Chandelure, Victini or Darmanitan. That's simply is beyond me.

I didn't continued reading after that lol

 

[kokoloko]

Would you please tell me the definition of suspect then (I already know what ban means) just to clarify?

As you know, a ban is a ban. A suspect is something that could potentially merit a ban. Don't let anyone tell you that suspect == death sentence or anything like that, because it simply is not true.

 

[SJCrew]

For a point of reference, Alakazam became suspect and was never banned. The more recent bans may have been landslides, but as someone mentioned earlier, we don't nominate suspects unless we're absolutely sure they're a problem. Under that logic, banning suspects should never be an issue.

 

[pokemonisfun]

I didn't think Crustle got significant usage in UU, honestly, so I left him out. I was just trying to capture the general feel for the best three Spikers in UU.

I guess if you add Crustle then 25% of teams use Spikes. I used the 1337 stats instead of the regular stats because I felt that the 1337 stats were more relevant when deciding on how a Pokemon affects the metagame. Obviously both the regular and 1337 stats have their respective problems (regular stats are skewed by players who aren't very good while 1337 stats are skewed by a small player base), but I went with the 1337 stats because I felt it was more of a snapshot of the UU metagame at the moment.

Plus, I doubt the two numbers are that far apart. In fact, let me calculate using the regular stats.

Roserade: 51.4% use Spikes, 21.762% of teams
Froslass: 90.7% use Spikes, 6.324% of teams
Qwilfish: 85.3% use Spikes, 2.320% of teams
Scolipede: 64.7% use Spikes, 1.180% of teams
Crustle: 81.9% use Spikes, 1.066% of teams
Omastar: 41.5% use Spikes, 1.867% of teams
Smeargle: 22.0% use Spikes, 1.586% of teams

Grand total? Rounded to the nearest .1%, 22.4%.

22.4% of UU teams use Spikes. This number holds constant for both regular users and 1337 users.

Thank you for finding out these numbers for both 1337 and regular stats while still understanding what I meant in horrible wording. I was too lazy to find out what the numbers would be. Would you please tell me what you think the implications of this are, I am aware you called it not terribly threatening but at what percentage point does it become that? Also at what point does Spikes become limited, that is to say, how many Pokemon will it take to learn Spikes until you think it becomes diverse and you don't have to rely on just a select few to use it?

As you know, a ban is a ban. A suspect is something that could potentially merit a ban. Don't let anyone tell you that suspect == death sentence or anything like that, because it simply is not true.

Thank you.

Does that just mean its a fancy word to label something? Because even though nobody declared sand veil suspect I think we can all agree it may potentially merit a ban.

 

[kokoloko]

Well, its officially suspect when it goes up for a vote.

 

[Razza]

I have four Pokes on my team who generally do not find Gligar to be challenging whatsoever:

1. Gligar's easiness to kill stems from me generally OHKOing it using a Life Orb-boosted (doesn't even have to be Rain-boosted to net the KO) Surf from my Kingdra; however, that is only my primary way of dealing with it.

2. I also wall it with Bronzong and nab a clean 2HKO with Macho Brace-boosted Gyro Balls, or hit something else on the switch with EQ/Payback. I set up Trick Room while it fails to hit with Earthquake/Toxic, or while it Roosts.

3. My Snorlax also sets up on it (I use the ability Immunity and a CurseLax set that goes with it) to laugh at the NFE scorpion's face and eventually KO it with a +2/+4 STAB Return.

4. My Roserade also gets to set up Toxic Spikes and leave at-will while Gligar does nothing helpful for its team, or otherwise Giga Drain something on the switch. Since I use Roserade, I know how absurdly powerful it is, even without having to set up Toxic Spikes to prove its worth on my team. Hidden Power Fire and Sludge Bomb are good coverage moves, and I hardly have to worry about any Pokemon otherwise (I can forego HP Fire for Sleep Powder, then laugh at their Steel-type with Arcanine thereafter...)

Then again, there are those who love to use Gligar in non-Sand scenarios because they overestimate its credentials.

My Roserade set:

Roserade @ Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 HP
Moves:
1. Toxic Spikes
2. Giga Drain
3. Sludge Bomb
4. Hidden Power [Fire] / Sleep Powder

This Roserade is a monster, and that's not including Sleep Powder as even a primary option (imo, Roserade can make do with HP Fire against Steels). I use Giga Drain over Leaf Storm for recovery while I still eat Blastoise and other Rapid Spinners for lunch. In fact, my whole team is dedicated to proving how broken Roserade is in UU, generally running Pokes like Arcanine and Kingdra who can switch into Fire-type foes willy-nilly (if I were running Heatproof Bronzong, that would also fit into "switch into Fire-types willy-nilly" - I run Levitate Bronzong, though, who is more a partner for Kingdra than a partner for Roserade). I initially thought about running Technician Roserade (that would have me going into the Dream Worlde metagame though, and require me to run 0 Atk IVs - mostly to laugh at Sableye's Foul Plays - if I were running Roserade in a truly dedicated Trick Room team, then I could also get away with 0 Speed IVs, as well as a Quiet nature), but realized I don't need to (and honestly can't in Standard UU, at least not yet).

what is the point of this post?

all of your posts in this thread are pretty terrible because they usually stem around the fact a threat is not broken because YOUR team doesnt have that much trouble with it, the tier doensnt revolve around your flawed opinions on things

ps. ban sand

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Thank you for finding out these numbers for both 1337 and regular stats while still understanding what I meant in horrible wording. I was too lazy to find out what the numbers would be. Would you please tell me what you think the implications of this are, I am aware you called it not terribly threatening but at what percentage point does it become that? Also at what point does Spikes become limited, that is to say, how many Pokemon will it take to learn Spikes until you think it becomes diverse and you don't have to rely on just a select few to use it?

Well, if you look at the stats I posted it looks like seven Pokemon use Spikes. However, only about three of them have much competitive merit in the UU metagame, those three being Roserade, Qwilfish, and Froslass. Scolipede, Crustle, Omastar, and Smeargle never see significant usage in UU, as noted by the fact that the collective usage of Scolipede, Crustle, Omastar, and Smeargle is less than that of either Froslass or Roserade.

I consider Spikes pretty limited in the UU metagame because one has to rely on one of three Pokemon to run Spikes. Even with Spikes on a team, there is no guarantee that the Spiking Pokemon will even have the opportunity to set up. For example, almost every one of these Pokemon has trouble switching in except for Qwilfish (able to set up on most Physical attackers) and Froslass (sets up on Rapid Spinners, though does not like Blastoise's Scald). Oftentimes, these Pokemon will have to wait for a KO to come in for free, and then the opponent can just switch to a Roserade counter (defensive Roserade is not difficult to counter) or anything that can threaten Roserade, effectively forcing it out.

And with Deoxys-D gone, the Rapid Spinners can now overpower the Spikers in my opinion. With Deoxys-D in the tier, the Spikers were able to consistently beat the Rapid Spinners with help from Ghost types. With the tier's best Spiker gone, there are considerably fewer opportunities to set up Spikes in UU. Not only that, but there just as many Rapid Spinners in UU as there are Spikers. As a sidebar, it's important to notice that Rapid Spin would still be used in UU even without Spikes in order to remove Stealth Rock and possibly Toxic Spikes (though people don't use Toxic Spikes much in UU).

There are two Spikers in UU. There are four Rapid Spinners*.
There are three Spikers in 1337 UU. There are either three or four Rapid Spinners in 1337 UU depending if you count Hitmonlee or not. Some people use Spin on him, others don't.

There are seven Pokemon that use Spikes in UU if you include some of the less viable Pokemon. There are also seven Rapid Spinners if you count some of the less viable Pokemon. Honestly I would make a case for Cryogonal who I feel is viable but it's 4:30 in the morning and I have things to do lol.

The conclusion that I draw from these stats is that Spikers no longer have the advantage over the Rapid Spinners anymore, and that Spikers are just another non-broken part of the metagame. If you take the sum total of Rapid Spin in the UU metagame, I would presume that it's actually less than that of Spikes, yet neither number is exceedingly high. I'm not going to do the math right now, but I would estimate Rapid Spin's total at about 20%. Teams without Spikes are definitely viable right now in UU, and using Spikes does not guarantee a win over someone who does not use Spikes.

I'll post more about Spikes later, most likely. I still cannot support another modification to the UU metagame, as I do not think Roserade is broken in this metagame either. Though that's another post.

*Counting Xatu. It does pretty much the same thing.

 

[/B/utterfree]

what is the point of this post?

all of your posts in this thread are pretty terrible because they usually stem around the fact a threat is not broken because YOUR team doesnt have that much trouble with it, the tier doensnt revolve around your flawed opinions on things

1. The point of my post was to illustrate what on my current UU team counters Gligar hard, as well as what Roserade set I use. Both aspects of my posts were directly related to hilarious' questions, and I thought I answered those aspects correctly and efficiently.

2. My opinion is not flawed; everyone has a personal stake at banning something, no?

I am simply saying that I have no trouble with Sand. I've proven that through usage of UU Pokes in general. I use Rain Dance Kingdra to shut the entire playstyle down, as well as mop up whatever Roserade hasn't mopped up.

My evidence for Roserade being broken and Sand not being broken is more personal than just calcs - my actual playing experiences with both are what ultimately decide my own verdict. In fact, my Roserade set blatantly mixes all the Smogon sets into one set. That set singlehandedly contributed to many victories I've had, because the Toxic Spikes from Rose (as well as prior damage from Sludge Bombs/Giga Drains) helped get me KOs with other Pokes.

ps. Don't ban Sand. We've all proven that it's overhyped bollocks.

 

[Lee]

2. I also wall it with Bronzong and nab a clean 2HKO with Macho Brace-boosted Gyro Balls, or hit something else on the switch with EQ/Payback. I set up Trick Room while it fails to hit with Earthquake/Toxic, or while it Roosts.

max attack Gyro Ball does 29.04% - 34.43% to 252/252+ Gligar

oh and your roserade set is 2HKO'd by 0 Atk Earthquake 98.62% of the time after Black Sludge and -without- Stealth Rock.

'bitch please'

not that either of those would be any worthwhile argument in a suspect discussion anyway but we can't have people going around throwing falsehoods.

 

[/B/utterfree]

max attack Gyro Ball does 29.04% - 34.43% to 252/252+ Gligar

oh and your roserade set is 2HKO'd by 0 Atk Earthquake 98.62% of the time after Black Sludge and -without- Stealth Rock.

'bitch please'

not that either of those would be any worthwhile argument in a suspect discussion anyway but we can't have people going around throwing falsehoods.

I was going to admit that it was harder for Zong to kill defensive sets of Gligar, where a 3HKO is the only possibility. Most of the Gligars I've come across also were made by fools; you should eat them!

Anyway, if my Roserade set is dismissed by you, then that's fine.

 

[pokemonisfun]

1. The point of my post was to illustrate what on my current UU team counters Gligar hard, as well as what Roserade set I use. Both aspects of my posts were directly related to hilarious' questions, and I thought I answered those aspects correctly and efficiently.

2. My opinion is not flawed; everyone has a personal stake at banning something, no?

I am simply saying that I have no trouble with Sand. I've proven that through usage of UU Pokes in general. I use Rain Dance Kingdra to shut the entire playstyle down, as well as mop up whatever Roserade hasn't mopped up.

My evidence for Roserade being broken and Sand not being broken is more personal than just calcs - my actual playing experiences with both are what ultimately decide my own verdict. In fact, my Roserade set blatantly mixes all the Smogon sets into one set. That set singlehandedly contributed to many victories I've had, because the Toxic Spikes from Rose (as well as prior damage from Sludge Bombs/Giga Drains) helped get me KOs with other Pokes.

ps. Don't ban Sand. We've all proven that it's overhyped bollocks.

Yeah but your team sucks so I don't think its a very valid example of what to use. What is your highest ranking you have achieved with it (if the point of the ladder is to win then any team that achieves that purpose will have a high rating)? Telling us that if its high wouldn't be bragging but I think it would let everyone accurately assess your team more.

If you want to respond to my blocks of text below, please read it all as it will not make sense unless you do.

Something else I have been thinking about, if as some of you have said the main reason Roserade is suspect is because of her defensive Spiker set, I want you to compare it to Roselia which gets basically no usage (because its outclassed). If in the unlikely event Roserade is banned, then Roselia will logically take her place (and we will screw up RU even more) as a defensive Spiker. Obviously Roselia is not ban worthy but it functions almost as well as Roserade as a Spiker being able to set up on sometimes even more threats (it for instance survives a LO +2 Modest Ice Beam from Omastar at full health and can set up Spikes on the Shell Smash while Roserade cannot survive). Roselia at least in theory seems pretty non-suspect material despite this (can you really imagine banning Roselia?), if we can agree on that, we have to ask ourselves what sets Roserade apart from Roselia that can even make us consider her a suspect?

Sludge Bomb is very nice coming off 125 base SpA compared to Roselia's far weaker 100 base. It can do things like kill off Raikou's sub or badly injure Darmantian, Roselia's attacks will be much weaker. It also serves as a nice response to Xatu. Consider though that Sludge Bomb is not a defining part of the defensive sets - the Spikes are. Roselia's Spikes are just as deadly as Roserade's. I think the Speed advantage is very trivial only coming into play rarely and not worth of discussion.

Several days ago on IRC there was a little discussion on Roserade and how effective it was without Sludge Bomb, if you were there you will remember that I said it was very effective as a dual Spiker. I guess though I have been relying on stall and as I slowly break away from it, I realize dual Spiking Roserade is very weak outside of stall. This was mentioned on IRC, but just how weak, I was very ignorant of. Sludge Bomb is almost necessary on Roserade because otherwise threats will set up too quickly on you which more offensively inclined teams loathe; what good does Spikes do against a Subbed +1 SpA/D Raikou? Sludge Bomb is then a large factor in the defensive sets because it allows them to set up without fear of opposing set up.

I just presented really different viewpoints, honestly, which is what is going through my head when I think about this. It is incredibly difficult to say what makes Roserade such an amazing Spikes user. Typing, special bulk, special attack etc etc. To be completely honest though, Roselia has all of those traits except special attack. Are you really going to say 25 points of Special Attack in what is primarily a defensive Pokemon tip it into suspect?

My point is, if Roselia is obviously not suspect material then why should Roserade be suspect?

 

[666lumberjack]

I don't think you can ignore the speed advantage that Roserade posses. Combined with that crucial extra 25 base Spatk, it allows Roserade to be a strong offensive Pokemon in a way Roselia just cannot match. There are plenty of pokemon like Nidoking, defensive Arcanine, Blastoise, Hitmontop and Kingdra where offensive Roserade really likes the ability to outrun them and smack them with a STAB attack. Roselia just can't threaten things in the same way Roserade does, so it has a tougher time setting up spikes. Pokemon like Snorlax are pretty safe switching into Roselia, while a well played Roserade could decimate Snorlax before it could move with Sludge Bomb and Leaf Storm.
You might say that this doesn't matter on a defensive Pokemon, but it really does. I guess people maybe missed my post at the bottom of the last page, but I can't see Roserade being half as good as it is without that ability to pull a ridiculous Leaf Storm out of the bag. You would be much safer just staying in and attacking Roselia, whereas Roserade is faster, and so more likely to kill you before you get a hit in, and significantly more powerful, so if you do stay in and try to hit it while you think it's going to Spike, it could quite easily either kill you or comepletely wreck you. Roserade's offensive set, and the pressure that the threat of this creates, is a big part of what makes it so good at laying Spikes for me. Roselia just can't pull the same sort of bluff, and that's why I think it's a lot worse than Roserade.
To reiterate, also, I'm not pro-ban here, I just don't think "Roselia is almost the same" is a good argument for not banning Roserade when clearly (imo) the differences there have a significant impact on Roserade's effectiveness as a Spiker.

 

[destinyunknown]

I don't think you can ignore the speed advantage that Roserade posses. Combined with that crucial extra 25 base Spatk, it allows Roserade to be a strong offensive Pokemon in a way Roselia just cannot match. There are plenty of pokemon like Nidoking, defensive Arcanine, Blastoise, Hitmontop and Kingdra where offensive Roserade really likes the ability to outrun them and smack them with a STAB attack. Roselia just can't threaten things in the same way Roserade does, so it has a tougher time setting up spikes. Pokemon like Snorlax are pretty safe switching into Roselia, while a well played Roserade could decimate Snorlax before it could move with Sludge Bomb and Leaf Storm.
You might say that this doesn't matter on a defensive Pokemon, but it really does. I guess people maybe missed my post at the bottom of the last page, but I can't see Roserade being half as good as it is without that ability to pull a ridiculous Leaf Storm out of the bag. You would be much safer just staying in and attacking Roselia, whereas Roserade is faster, and so more likely to kill you before you get a hit in, and significantly more powerful, so if you do stay in and try to hit it while you think it's going to Spike, it could quite easily either kill you or comepletely wreck you. Roserade's offensive set, as the the pressure that the threat of this creates, is a big part of what makes it so good at laying Spikes for me. Roselia just can't pull the same sort of bluff, and that's why I think it's a lot worse than Roserade.
To reiterate, also, I'm not pro-ban here, I just don't think "Roselia is almost the same" is a good argument for not banning Roserade when clearly (imo) the differences there have a significant impact on Roserade's effectiveness as a Spiker.

The first bolded part is exactly what hilarious said in his post, read carefully lol. Hilarious set that, considering most people is blaming the ''Spikes'' set, the difference between Roserade and Roselia while running a deffensive set is almost nill, bar the 25 extra base SpA Roserade have, which (arguably) is what makes it such a great spiker, because it's difficult to be set up on.
Of course, when talking about an offensive set we can't compare Roserade to Roselia.

 

[kokoloko]

@hilarious:

The main argument being used against suspecting Roserade is that it can be used as set up bait. The thing is, with its base 125 SpA, even uninvested hits hurt a lot. Take the standard SubCM Raikou as an example--trying to set up on Roserade is not going to end well, but setting up on Roselia is a cakewalk. The natural offensive presence Roserade possesses is what makes it such an excellent support mon; this is what Roselia lacks.

As a side note, I'm speaking from experience here. Back when I played on PO, we banned Roserade (the vote was open to anyone with a rating of 1400+ and it was banned unanimously, btw). There was a few people who tried replacing the support with Roselia and they failed miserably. On a full stall team, it might not make too much of a difference because you're likely to have hard-counters to the stuff that sets up on it; but on a balanced team, this is not the case.

Of course, all this fails to acknowledge that the primary reason Roserade would be suspected is its ridiculous offensive capabilities.

 

[666lumberjack]

I think the Speed advantage is very trivial only coming into play rarely and not worth of discussion.

This was the line I was referring to in my post. I can't agree that the speed difference is trivial or rarely matters because in my experience that's simply not true.

 

[Ace Emerald]

Are you really going to say 25 points of Special Attack in what is primarily a defensive Pokemon tip it into suspect?

Ironically, I think you argued that this is true very well. As you said, Sludge Bomb is a necessity to prevent set up on the defensive set. 25 base points is pretty considerable, you wouldn't ever see an offensive Roselia, but offensive Roserade is deadly. Combined with what fastflygon said about speed, I'd say it really does matter.

 

[WJC3688]

As kokoloko pointed out, what's really ridiculous about Roserade is its offensive set. The spiker set, while effective at its intended job, is not nearly as ban-worthy imo. Offensive Roserade's power lies in Sleep Powder, which is by far the most broken thing in the current metagame. With the new sleep mechanics introduced in BW, it might as well be an OHKO move, as any well-made team will have something to switch in and force out whatever falls victim to it and reset the sleep counter. While it's true that it does have some downsides compared to an OHKO move, such as the possibility of instant wake up, it also ironically has upsides. It gives you more momentum than actually killing the opposing pokemon as the opponent doesn't get the free switch in that comes after a kill, but they are still for all intents and purposes down a mon.

Considering that offensive Roserade deals hefty damage to Xatu and Honchkrow with sludge bomb (mine has 2HKO'd every Xatu I've fought and generally OHKOs Honchkrow after SR damage), it has really no effective counters or switch-ins at all. Even the things that can take its attacks can just fall victim to sleep powder, and it doesn't help that most things which can take a hit from it are also slower than it, meaning that by switching them in you give the opponent a guaranteed Sleep Powder attempt. Sleep-inducing moves have always been really strong, and with the new counter reset deal, IMO they are beyond cheap now.

 

[spuds4ever]

As kokoloko pointed out, what's really ridiculous about Roserade is its offensive set. The spiker set, while effective at its intended job, is not nearly as ban-worthy imo. Offensive Roserade's power lies in Sleep Powder, which is by far the most broken thing in the current metagame. With the new sleep mechanics introduced in BW, it might as well be an OHKO move, as any well-made team will have something to switch in and force out whatever falls victim to it and reset the sleep counter. While it's true that it does have some downsides compared to an OHKO move, such as the possibility of instant wake up, it also ironically has upsides. It gives you more momentum than actually killing the opposing pokemon as the opponent doesn't get the free switch in that comes after a kill, but they are still for all intents and purposes down a mon.

Considering that offensive Roserade deals hefty damage to Xatu and Honchkrow with sludge bomb (mine has 2HKO'd every Xatu I've fought and generally OHKOs Honchkrow after SR damage), it has really no effective counters or switch-ins at all. Even the things that can take its attacks can just fall victim to sleep powder, and it doesn't help that most things which can take a hit from it are also slower than it, meaning that by switching them in you give the opponent a guaranteed Sleep Powder attempt. Sleep-inducing moves have always been really strong, and with the new counter reset deal, IMO they are beyond cheap now.

I can't agree with this. Sleep powder is not broken, you just have to prepare for it like in any tier.

Having used offensive roserade, there are several things that don't care a dime about what it does, at the top of the list would be snorlax and porygon2, neither of which care about sleep if snorlax has sleep talk and if porygon2 has trace. If something has been sleeped, offensive roserade's danger potential stoops waaaay down with things like chandelure easily switching in and stealing your momentum.

While the offensive set is good, it's not broken on its own IMO. Adding on to what's already been said, it's really the threat and the even larger potential threat that roserade possesses that makes her so effective.

 

[WJC3688]

Having used offensive roserade, there are several things that don't care a dime about what it does, at the top of the list would be snorlax and porygon2, neither of which care about sleep if snorlax has sleep talk and if porygon2 has trace.

Even with these so-called "counters" in play, momentum remains on the side of the Roserade player. A sleeping Snorlax w/ Rest Talk, while better than a sleeping pokemon without rest talk, is still much worse off than if it hadn't been sleeped as sleep talk is very unreliable, and potentially turns Snorlax into set-up bait. The same holds true for Pory2; even though its sleep can be cured by switching out, if it does so it needs to switch out to something which can both take Roserade's incoming attack and outspeed and threaten it (or else Roserade will just use sleep powder again), and if it doesn't switch, there is the threat that the Roserade player will himself switch while Pory2 is asleep, giving him a free turn to do whatever he wants. Additionally, Roserade can easily kill a sleeping Pory2 with 1 or 2 sludge bombs followed by a leaf storm.

If these are the best methods people can find for "countering" Roserade, I'd certainly say it's suspect-worthy.

If something has been sleeped, offensive roserade's danger potential stoops waaaay down with things like chandelure easily switching in and stealing your momentum.

If something has been sleeped, Roserade basically already killed something. So yeah, its threat level may "stoop down" at that point, but if you have to lose a pokemon before you can even start trying to deal with it, how is that not broken?

 

[FlareBlitz]

Having used offensive roserade, there are several things that don't care a dime about what it does, at the top of the list would be snorlax and porygon2, neither of which care about sleep if snorlax has sleep talk and if porygon2 has trace. If something has been sleeped, offensive roserade's danger potential stoops waaaay down with things like chandelure easily switching in and stealing your momentum.

Sludge Bomb v. standard RestTalk Snorlax: 28.3% - 33.5%
Leaf Storm v. Standard RestTalk Snorlax: 44.4% - 52.2%

2 Sludge Bombs and a Leaf Storm guarantee a kill. In order for Snorlax to win, not only do you need to get two Body Slams on two Sleep Talks, you also need to not Sleep Talk on a wake-up turn. As for P2...

Sludge Bomb v. standard Defensive Duck: 38.5% - 45.2%
Leaf Storm v. standard Defensive Duck: 58.8% - 69.8%

Trace is pretty cool but not when you die to Sludge Bomb -> Leaf Storm.

Sleep Powder combined with insane power and perfect coverage in sludge bomb / leaf storm / hp fire mean that anything slower than roserade fails to beat it. This wouldn't be a problem if sleep mechanics hadn't changed, since a Snorlax who gets slept can just switch out and come back in without constantly getting played around and chipped down.

As someone who commonly uses offensive teams, my best answer to Roserade is to feed death fodder to it and revenge it with something faster. And that's great, except it basically means that without death fodder, Rosie is guaranteed to cripple something on your team and possibly destroy something else. Whereas with something like Chandelure, a good switchin is guaranteed to put you in a good position.

 

[SJCrew]

I've had some discussion with Kokoloko on IRC about Roserade being able to beat Resttalk Snorlax, but in my experience, it generally doesn't happen. For one, the Roserade player isn't going to stay in on Snorlax when it's not in a position to KO immediately, because after SR and two rounds of LO damage, Roserade is KOed immediately by Body Slam, and risking your Roserade like that when it's the one thing standing between you and a Suicune/Shaymin sweep is generally a bad idea.

Incidentally, something I've also discussed on IRC was the influence of Sleep Powder being enough to make Roserade suspect, in addition to what it already can do. Which is why I want to highlight this in particular:

I can't agree with this. Sleep powder is not broken, you just have to prepare for it like in any tier.

We want to believe this is true because most Pokemon in other tiers with access to reliable sleep moves are not broken, yet this comes without the support of any context whatsoever. Why are Breloom and Venusaur not suspect-worthy in their respective tiers while Roserade is?

Roserade, for one, can do more with its free turn than Venusaur or Breloom. For example, if Breloom puts a defensive Celebi to sleep, there's still no feasible way for it to break Celebi before it wakes up and slaughters it. Venusaur puts Heatran to sleep? You're still not breaking it without Earthquake. Dragons still stomp all over you unless you're packing a +2 Sludge Bomb. In fact, the coverage of these two Pokemon is so terrible that they need the Sleep move in order to be as threatening as Roserade is on its day job (EX: Spikes). What does Amoongus do with its free turns? Absolutely nothing.

Roserade possesses the necessary amount of power and utility to be a threat without its sleep move. Most Pokemon rely too much on their sleep move to get a free turn, whereas Roserade only needs to switch into your Blastoise.

Keep in mind this comes from a guy who does not believe Roserade is broken in full. Objectively, I do think there is enough reason to make it suspect, if nothing else.

 

[Heysup]

Well the real issue I see with Roserade is that nothing's really changed to make it that much better or worse in the sense of utility or power. It's one of those situations where we seem to forget that just because we ended up banning the "best" Pokemon or one of its "best" competition etc, does not mean that the #2 Pokemon should automatically get focused on and made suspect. I'm aware of the valid arguments, but are you sure that they don't just make Roserade really good?