np: UU Stage 6 - No Surprises

[jamashawalker]

The problem with Swords Dance Cobalion is, what move are you skipping to add Hp Ice? Losing Stone Edge means Zapdos/Chandelure set up on you, while losing Iron Head/X-Scissor means bulky Psychic types laugh at you. I usually like running CC/Stone Edge/Iron Head as that coverage is only 100% walled by Slowbro, Qwilfish and somewhat Gligar (which you can beat with a bit of luck on your side). I'm not saying Hp Ice is bad, but Cobalion is only getting past 1 of its counters with Hp Ice, which is something that pretty much sucks because it still gets horribly walled...

Very true. And thats cobalions biggest flaw is its coverage. Stone Edge for zapdos and other flyers, X-scissor for Slowbro and mew, and iron head for idk just another decent STAB. Personally I run the set Close Combat, Stone Edge, HP ice. It gets through most of its counters but bulky psychics. And being able to get passed gligar is a huge plus since its now the most commonly used wall this round. Pairing it with a heracross might actually be a good idea since gligar's job responsibility will be need to counter the duo only to be brought down by a random HP ice giving heracross a free chance to sweep

EDIT: Just found another legit reason for HP Ice. It 2HKOs tangrowth and catches Flygon on the switch or just straight out KOs flygon if its locked into outrage or not Scarfed EQ. Something close combat cannot do alone

 

[TheBaron]

What should my fourth move on Choice Specs Tangrowth be?
Leaf Storm - Focus Blast - Hidden Power Fire

Sludge Bomb?
Giga Drain?

 

[destinyunknown]

Sleep Powder is a decent option because you know, you put an opponent you can't ko to sleep and then switch out. Another interesting option is Sunny Day if your team is worried about sand, since once you kill hippopotas you can just set up sun and such. The only other move you can run is Giga Drain really, and I have never found it too useful.

 

[TheBaron]

I chose Sludge Bomb. I use it as a last-resort neutral and vs. Shaymin.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Is anything ever going to be done about sand veil because I first brought it up in this thread a month ago (not to mention people have been complaining about it forever) and absolutely nothing but now repetitive debate has been done. If none of the senators want a ban (which obviously isn't true anyways), can't you just post so?

Yeah I actually don't like Tangrowth much at all because it can't really counter bulky waters effectively. Its ridiculously slow (Machamp=outspeeds) and can't tank consecutive Ice Beams from stuff like Milotic or Empoleon which is pretty pathetic. Would definitely try out Sleep Powder though just because taking out something about 75% of the time is pretty awesome.

But the main reason I am posting is to tell everyone how amazing Victni+Darmantian can be, specifically CB Victni and LO Darmantian. Its basically impossible to counter a duo that has a CB boosted 180 BP move and and then on top of that something that hits harder that hits harder than Zekrom's Outrage so the only thing stopping you is faster stuff. Every time you bring in either one of those Fire monsters you can basically get a KO unless you meet up with one of their very few counters (e.g. Rhyperior) which you can just weaken to the point where its almost irrelevant by by attacking with one of the Fires. You still have your other to gain material with. Obviously you want a spinner and hazards yourself but besides that its extremely easy to abuse...

 

[/B/utterfree]

Thing is, which of the two (between Victini and Darmanitan) is more threatening? Suspect testing both of them simultaneously is not necessarily going to succeed.

Isn't Victini a frequent UU Suspect throughout the various Rounds? If one had to choose between the two, I'd still try to ban that one. Although, if Darmanitan is more of an issue...

 

[pokemonisfun]

Thing is, which of the two (between Victini and Darmanitan) is more threatening? Suspect testing both of them simultaneously is not necessarily going to succeed.

Isn't Victini a frequent UU Suspect throughout the various Rounds? If one had to choose between the two, I'd still try to ban that one. Although, if Darmanitan is more of an issue...

I never said to suspect them, just that when used they are pretty awesome...

 

[FlareBlitz]

Is anything ever going to be done about sand veil

You would be better off PMing some of the other senate members to get their opinions, I think. You know how I feel, and I can tell you that the senate in general is heavily divided on the issue.

The tagline on #genvuu asks the senators to post their opinions here, so you should be getting some soon, hopefully.

But the main reason I am posting is to tell everyone how amazing Victni+Darmantian can be, specifically CB Victni and LO Darmantian. Its basically impossible to counter a duo that has a CB boosted 180 BP move and and then on top of that something that hits harder that hits harder than Zekrom's Outrage so the only thing stopping you is faster stuff. Every time you bring in either one of those Fire monsters you can basically get a KO unless you meet up with one of their very few counters (e.g. Rhyperior) which you can just weaken to the point where its almost irrelevant by by attacking with one of the Fires. You still have your other to gain material with. Obviously you want a spinner and hazards yourself but besides that its extremely easy to abuse...

LO Darm is monstrous. I'm less impressed with CB Victini simply because it's highly risky spamming V-Create when a team has Chandelure or Kingdra (which, looking at the usage statistics, is many of them). If you really want to troll, though, try Special LO Victini with Fire Blast / Grass Knot / Psyshock / Work Up or HP Ice - it destroys every single one of its common switchins, as well as anything below 100 Spe that isn't Snorlax (and even Snorlax takes an assload from +1 Psyshock).

Thing is, which of the two (between Victini and Darmanitan) is more threatening? Suspect testing both of them simultaneously is not necessarily going to succeed.

Isn't Victini a frequent UU Suspect throughout the various Rounds? If one had to choose between the two, I'd still try to ban that one. Although, if Darmanitan is more of an issue...

Neither Vic nor Darm was ever a suspect, nor should they be. They have both crippling flaws and solid checks and counters.

 

[SJCrew]

Victini was a suspect in both Rounds 1 and 2. He expressed dominance in Round 1 due to the absurdity of Drought and even claimed the #1 spot in usage for the first month. Round 2, he only pulled away ~30% of votes in favor of a ban, one of which was mine.

It looks like he's simply not meant to ascend to the stars for the time being. But I will maintain that he more than well enough holds true to his reputation as the Victory Pokemon.

 

[SJCrew]

I have something important to ask the UU community that hasn't really been touched on yet: what is you guys' opinion on the role of Spikes in UU post Deo-D?

We were having a chat in IRC about it just a moment ago. A couple of senate members and a handful of UU players, nothing major, but a very controversial idea was suggested that the metagame might still be unhealthy in terms of how well teams succeed with Spikes as opposed to having no Spikes, and how limited the ways are of dealing with them.

Personally, I still feel compelled to run a spinner on most teams, due to my balanced offensive style of play. Balance absolutely cannot succeed in the face of Spikes without extreme countermeasures. And when I say 'extreme countermeasures', I'm mostly referring to the fact that if you want to use more than one wall/bulky sweeper, you have to accept Blastoise/Hitmontop/Xatu as a permanent member of your team. It's either that or an extremely risky hyper offense team. I am not OK with that.

At the end of the day though, I'm just one player amongst many. Do you still feel that Spikes is the way to go in today's metagame? If not, how proficient are you at dealing with them? Can you win consistently against them without restricting yourself to one playstyle OR using Rapid Spin?

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Saw the word "unhealthy" and stopped reading.

Spikes do not unbalance the metagame as far as I'm concerned. I do agree that Spikes are a centralizing force in the current metagame, but not a broken force and should not be removed from the metagame in any way. Balanced-offense is definitely the dominant strategy in UU, but that's because of the multitude of bulky attackers that exist in the metagame. There are three Spinners and one Magic Bouncer in UU right now, and having to use one of four Pokemon to greatly improve your chances of winning does not seem like an unreasonable trade.

If you think that Spikes give a player an advantage over another player without Spikes, then it seems pretty clear what to do (the answer is not "ban Spikes"!). Just use Spikes and find ways to counter the Spikers. Though there are only four "anti-Spikes" Pokemon in UU, there are only two Pokemon in the entire tier that are capable of using Spikes and only three if you use the 1337 stats instead.

That means if you want to even use Spikes on your team, you have to accept Roserade/Froslass/Qwilfish as a permanent member of your team. It's either that or an extremely risky no-Spikes team. I am OK with that. /condescension :P

Though that raises a valid point. How often do Spikes even appear on a team in UU? I'll use the 1337 stats, since when talking about a possible ban it's better to analyze the suspect's presence among the top tier of players.

Roserade appears on 18.627% of teams. Spikes is used on 57.2% of all Roserade.
Froslass appears on 3.868% of teams. Spikes is used on 100% of all Froslass.
Qwilfish appears on 6.003% of teams. Spikes is used on 100% of all Qwilfish.
Scolipede appears on 1.269% of teams. Spikes is used on 100% of all Scolipede.

If we multiply the Pokemon's usage by Spikes' usage, we get

Roserade: 10.655%
Qwilfish: 6.003%
Froslass: 3.868%
Scolipede: 1.269%
------------------
Total: 21.975%

Spikes appears on about twenty-two percent of teams. Not terribly threatening, in my opinion. If you look at the numbers, using Spikes requires even more of a commitment than using Rapid Spin, and that really says something. People who believe in banning Spikes need to take into account the fact that using Spikes is just as restrictive as using Rapid Spin, and that Rapid Spin would still be used even if Spikes didn't exist (though to a lesser extent).

I can't get behind a ban like this.

 

[kokoloko]

He wasn't advocating a ban on Spikes, but rather a potential suspecting of the most dangerous Spikes users (Roserade would obviously be first).

Just thought I'd clear that up.

 

[Psychotic]

As you set up spikes, I get a free switch in to Cobalion, Raikou, etc. and start boosting up. I like seeing a spiker on the other team, I think "free setup opportunity" every single time.

Oh, and BTW, I haven't used a spinner in 4 months at least and can count on one hand the amount of times I have been swept by spikestacking sweepers. Maybe its my playstyle, but Spikes are super easy to play around IMO.

 

[jamashawalker]

I wouldnt start a problem where there is none. Spikes is an effective strategy, but its not even close to being controversial. To answer your question as a player of this metagame.

Do you still feel that Spikes is the way to go in today's metagame?

No, there are many viable strategies to employ in this metagame without the use of spikes. And the fact is that you are restricted to only 3 spikers, who are designated at that job. Roserade is the only exception.

If not, how proficient are you at dealing with them?

I havent been profiecient with my win record. But spikes have been hardly an issue with my team building. Roserade/Frosslass have always been out "offensed" to the point where putting spikes up on the field is more of a liability for my opponents. Offensive roserade has outshined the defensive set in this round of the metagame. Roserade cannot afford to allow easy switch ins without a huge risk.

Can you win consistently against them without restricting yourself to one playstyle OR using Rapid Spin?

Rapid spin isnt just used for spikes. Its also used for Stealth rock and (the rare) Tspikes. This metagame has currently allowed the use for much much variety and allows players to choose between playstyles. The recent thread, Stall "The greatest playstyle" shows that you can use a variety of different styles. Though i disagree with stall being the greatest playstyle, I do appreciate that Hiliarious shines light onto stall base teams.

 

[SJCrew]

As for what Kokoloko said, while it is true that my stance on Spikes is to evaluate its users first and foremost (and always has been), I didn't want to bring any suspect discussion into this thread with that post. Certain people get up in arms when we talk about suspecting or banning anything, so I wanted to avoid the melodrama for now and just hear what people think about Spikes.

Spikes is an effective strategy, but its not even close to being controversial.

This I disagree with. Consider my first post on the subject where I mention being an avid user of balance teams. When I go to build my team, the first thing I'm thinking about is what I want to sweep. Once my offensive core has been outlined, I figure out what needs to be countered. This could be a defensive core of anywhere up to 2-3 Pokemon. Once I get to the defensive measures, however, things get tricky, because I know Spikes are still very much present in UU, despite the fact that its best setter has been banned. I've tried just ignoring Spikes before. With the way I play, it's not very successful, since if I let my Milotic take too much damage right away, she can't check Scarf Darmanitan. Yes, I know LO 2HKOs with just rocks, but walling that thing is next to impossible, so it's easier for my sanity to assume it's Scarfed in debates. If a Spike stacking team shows up and I have no Rapid Spinner, it's already an uphill battle.

Then there's offensive pressure to "keep Spikes users from setting up" or "to take advantage of their setup with your setup". We've been over this before with Deoxys-D; while I don't think Roserade or Froslass can ever quite fill his shoes, they each have their own ways of being pains in the ass and it's not right to dismiss them as setup bait when Froslass has a very fast Taunt and enough bulk to set up on walls with 252 HP, and Roserade can scare certain Pokemon out with its offensive set to get free layers. They will mess you up if you are not careful, or sometimes even use your caution to their advantage. Most Spikes in UU, if any, will come from those two.

Other Spike setters are so bad that I see them as non-threats. Too many things beat the likes of Omastar, Cacturne and Qwilfish for me to consider them controversial.

Onto my point. If people tell me they are not having that much trouble with Spikes, and claim that they can consistently secure momentum before the Spikes take a toll on their team, I have no choice but to assume that they are running heavy offense. Has heavy offense become the preferred style of play in UU, or am I missing some details? Fill me in.

 

[pokemonisfun]

I have something important to ask the UU community that hasn't really been touched on yet: what is you guys' opinion on the role of Spikes in UU post Deo-D?

Do you still feel that Spikes is the way to go in today's metagame? If not, how proficient are you at dealing with them? Can you win consistently against them without restricting yourself to one playstyle OR using Rapid Spin?

My opinion on spikes is that it plays an important role twofold, it allows offense to soften up walls and slightly bulkier Pokemon to get cleaner attacks and it allows defensive teams to defend successively and gives them a powerful damage source. That is obvious. But still I think if you are using Spikes for any other way for any other role you are doing it wrong.

I do not think Spikes is mandatory for a good team but I think it is the way to go, and it is mandatory to keep it in mind when building a team. If you can grab 12.5% damage every grounded switch-in at the cost of one turn then you probably should do it. Letting a Cobalion or Raikou set up really shouldn't be a problem at all early game which is when you want those Spikes up for maximum effect.

I am not proficient against them because all the Spikers just get too many layers up against stall (which is what I use in case you didn't notice) Claydol is just not a good spinner at all (although Earth Power does a nice bit to Chandelure) so I am put in very cramped positions when playing against Spikes. Spikes always will put a serious crimp in defensive teams.

I cannot win consistently without resorting a a Rapid Spinner against Spikes. Spikes are just extraordinarily powerful of a concept of a move (almost half as powerful as Stealth Rocks) but the main thing is they are set up extremely easily and make defensive teams harder to use. Ironic considering defensive teams need Spikes as much as they hate them.

Saw the word "unhealthy" and stopped reading.
Though that raises a valid point. How often do Spikes even appear on a team in UU? I'll use the 1337 stats, since when talking about a possible ban it's better to analyze the suspect's presence among the top tier of players.

Roserade appears on 18.627% of teams. Spikes is used on 57.2% of all Roserade.
Froslass appears on 3.868% of teams. Spikes is used on 100% of all Froslass.
Qwilfish appears on 6.003% of teams. Spikes is used on 100% of all Qwilfish.
Scolipede appears on 1.269% of teams. Spikes is used on 100% of all Scolipede.

If we multiply the Pokemon's usage by Spikes' usage, we get

Roserade: 10.655%
Qwilfish: 6.003%
Froslass: 3.868%
Scolipede: 1.269%
------------------
Total: 21.975%

Spikes appears on about twenty-two percent of teams. Not terribly threatening, in my opinion. If you look at the numbers, using Spikes requires even more of a commitment than using Rapid Spin, and that really says something. People who believe in banning Spikes need to take into account the fact that using Spikes is just as restrictive as using Rapid Spin, and that Rapid Spin would still be used even if Spikes didn't exist (though to a lesser extent).

I can't get behind a ban like this.

Is there you leave out Crustle which sits at just under 2.3%? All of them use Spikes. Also Accelegor gets just under a tiny 0.1%.

Anyways I have problem with looking at 1337 stats only, isn't that exceedingly arrogant? That is not to mention people on the fringes of 1337 still are not very good. I understand that top tiered players know what they are doing and it would naturally follow their stats are the most relevant. But 1337 is such a tiny player base, maybe only a few dozen people qualify for it which can hardly represent hundreds of players using hundreds of Pokemon.

 

[FlareBlitz]

To make this explicitly clear - we are not talking about banning anything right now.

As to spikes in general...Deo-D's departure means that spikes are not nearly as easy as they once were, and more importantly, it means the opportunity cost of using Spikes (the free turn) is far more dangerous. Let's recap for a moment here - Deo-D's Taunt, bulky, access to status options, and reliable recovery made setting up against it difficult if not outright impossible. This is what made Deo-D imbalanced as a spiker.

I have used a bevy of spikers since then, and I can assure everyone that none come close to that level of easy usability. Roserade, Froslass, and Scolipede (seriously, give this thing a try) are the best spikers in the metagame right now, and all risk horribly powerful threats setting up on them or being KO'd outright due to frailty. They do not have the options Deo-D had, and so every layer they set up comes at a significant price. This, in my opinion, is keeping spikes balanced in the metagame right now.

For what it's worth, I do not use Rapid Spin, or run a spiker on my main laddering team. It's at #4 or something right now, I don't remember. Now, this doesn't mean much since I also peaked the ladder during Gen IV Yanmega meta without using Yanmega or a real Yanmega counter (besides SR lololol), but it should prove that it's possible to create a viable team without really caring about spikes. Just make sure you have the offensive or defensive options to exploit the free turns your opponent gives you. If your team cannot leverage the momentum advantage you get into causing substantial damage against your opponent's team, you would have lost with or without spikes.

Also can we please talk about Sand Veil guys

 

[Psychotic]

The Sand Veil topic has been beaten to death, just make a decision already.

@SJCrew: You keep saying that I am somehow "skewing" the 1337 stats, but after checking the stats today, I found this is a gross overstatement, and simply not true. Just 2 pokes on the team that I used for the ENTIRETY of last month are in the top 10 in 1337 usage, and 2 of them aren't even in the top 20(Gligar, Hitmonlee). When I ladder I play a shitload on a day that I have a lot of free time, and then play a game a day to preserve my rating. So please stop saying that the stats are illegitimate somehow because of me, I don't play NEARLY as much as you think. I know this probably wasn't the place to put this rant but IDGAF.

I am not trying to call you out or anything SJ, just clarifying for anyone who may have heard that the 1337 stats are decided by whatever I choose to use in a given month.

 

[kokoloko]

^ He meant the 1337 stats are inherently unreliable because there's always someone who ladders a ton and skews them. Keep in mind, the battles in 1337 are... not that many. We should try to make the ladder more active or ask Antar to use a lower cutoff (even ~1300 would help a ton).

Anyway, we can't move forward with Sand Veil until the other senate members start being more active (its finals week so yeah). As of now, I know 3 of us support a ban on it and 1 of us does not; I'm completely in the dark about what Upstart, ToF, and Heysup think. On top of this, there seems to be some sort of political bullshit going on in the upper echelons of Smogon about "why we ban things" and since this is a pretty controversial topic, its going to be hard to push it through.

On the subject of Spikes...

While I don't think Spikes are as dominating as they were when Deoxys was around, they're still around, and they're still a bitch to deal with. Even if this has been the case since ADV (GSC is a shit), Roserade sets up on a ton of the metagame, and its not as easy to take advantage of those turns like people are making it sound. Keep in mind, Rose still has that ridiculous 125 base SpA to work with and that one of its STABs poisons 30% of the time. Trying to set up say... SubCM Raikou on it... is not going to work out.

Then there's the offensive set, which just tears everyone a new asshole every time it gets a safe switchin. Seriously, even 252/252+ Snorlax gets 2HKO'd by Modest LO Sludge Bomb -> Leaf Storm with a little previous damage (Rose does't need Timid). By itself, its "just another nuke" but here's the catch: Aside from Chandelure, Crobat, and maybe Cobalion (it does not like LO Leaf Storms) the things you would switch into the offensive set to try to take hits become setup bait for the Spikes set while the things you would switch into the Spikes set just get straight up raped by the LO set. Top it all off with the fact that Roserade can literally come in for free on any team that uses a bulky Water, turning them into liabilities.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Between its devastating offensive set and its ease of setting up Spikes, Roserade is easily suspect material (I'm operating under the assumption that people will once day realize that "suspect" does not necessarily == "ban", so bear with me here).

To summarize where I stand as a senator:

• I support a ban on Sand as a whole because I think it makes the meta shit, but will settle for a ban on Sand Veil.
• I support a suspecting on Roserade because I believe its offensive capabilities in addition to its support capabilities make it "a little too good." Whether I would actually vote to ban it is a whole different story.

 

[666lumberjack]

I'd say Roserade is really the only Spikes user that might be problematic in my experience. Bulky waters are just so easy to lure, or failing that, Rhyperior. Almost every team I see has one of the two and once Rose comes in on them she's get at least a layer and often if you mispredict the set you're either losing a Pokemon or she's getting another layer. 2 layers of spikes is a pretty big deal in a lot of games.

Even if you're running a spinner, spinblocking still exists and every spinner is either beatable or easy to exploit. Running Darmanitan or Victini alongside Roserade basically guarantees you'll get Spikes since both of them are threatening enough to almost force a bulky water or rock in and both carry U-turn to bring Roserade in safely. The next time Darm/Vict comes in, your opponent probably has a couple of layers and often rocks as well so your check takes a ton of damage – and Roseis probably going to force the aforementioned check straight out again, causing even more damage. There's not a whole lot you can do to alleviate this aside from running a fire type over the bulky water, but being weak to SR brings its own set of problems. Since the offensive set is so strong, your offensive Rose check is the superior switch unless you already know which set Rose is running - the second time it comes in, you'll know, but if it is a spiker, it only needs another layer for full spikes assuming the previous situation.

None of the spinners we have beat Rose either, barring perhaps a specialised Cryogonal. (As a side note, why doesn't Whirlipede get Rapid Spin? It's the perfect fit for a mon that rolls everywhere and Scolipede would be an awesome Rose check and offensive spiker/spinner...) On the subject of offensive spinners, with Donphan busy partying in OU, we don't really have any of these anymore. Hitmontop is just too weak to get anywhere with base 95 attack, Cryogonal isn't much better, Sandslash is much the same - at least until sand rush is released - and Blastoise is not only kind of weak but also a bulky water, which, as mentioned, is a liability with Roserade around.

Getting back to Roserade for a second, I don't think anybody mentioned Sleep Powder yet either. It's true that Sleep Powder and Spikes are illegal together, but the few Pokemon that can stomach both the offensive set and prevent the Spiker from setting up are all none-too-fond of getting slept. If Chandelure gets put to sleep, it can't perform responsibilities such as spinblocking nearly as effectively, which can easily give the opponent a hazard advantage just as if the Roserade was running Spikes. Sleep Powder also ensures Roserade isn't setup fodder after it Leaf Storms, since unless the setup mon has Substitute (and all the mons that do use sub have issues of some sort that prevent them from sweeping earlygame when Roserade most likes to play) it's going to be slept if it tries any setup shenanigans.

To clarify, though, I'm not actually saying we should ban Roserade. It's definitely very good; and indeed I think Roserade is the problem IF there is one, not Spikes. The rest of the setup mons have more exploitable flaws, and none of them has the kind of "ok, i came in on your bulky water, I hope you don't mind me spilling a few spikes here and their while you can't do anything at all" potential that Rose does. Despite what the past four paragraphs might seem to imply, I haven’t actually found it really horrible to face.

I think it might just be because I’m running an offensive team without a bulky water, but it never seems to do that great versus me. I’ve still lost matches because it got layers, but I’ve also won matches because I managed to grab Quiver Dances with Lilligant on bulky Rose. It’s the sort of mon where an offensive team with solid synergy does a good job of limiting its opportunities. That’s right until an offensive set comes in and shreds something with Leaf Storm. It has that devious unpredictability that makes any Pokemon that does several things really well dangerous, only cranked up a notch, and I know for a fact it’s very potent against more balanced teams in combination with a U-turner that attracts bulky waters, but at the same time I also know it’s made of paper and bringing in a solid physically offensive Pokemon on it gives you plenty of momentum.

In case you can’t tell, I’m kind of on the fence about it, leaning a little towards the “it should be a suspect” side (though as kokoloko mentioned, this is not the same as ”it should be banned”). Whatever the case, I would be reluctant to make a decision either way until BW2 since for all we know Scolipede might get rapid spin which would make it effectively as close to a perfect Rose check as we’re going to get. It’s not on the level of being so good it warrants a hasty ban for me, just something that it might be wise to investigate.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'd sooner ban Sand as a whole over banning Sand Veil individually.

Note: I'm not saying I want to ban sand, rather that i'd want to see Sand as a whole go first over just banning Sand Veil. It kills a team style yes, but this particular has always been between border of "too good & broken." It's not even Stoutland that's the problem with Sand imo (though it is a stupidly good threat) its the combination of having to deal with Stoutland early / mid / late game AND hoping you have enough juice to power through Gligar and hoping it doesn't luck you. Sand's presence in UU is arguably one of the worst experiences i've had to deal with. The overall effect it has on UU is negative and I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep if it got banned.

I'm not too keen on suspecting Roserade... it's really good no doubt about it, but there are ways around it depending on the set. (LO Roserade shouldn't be underestimated... there aren't any more chanseys to make it a liability, so if you see one you'd better put a game face on). Thank ARCEUS it can't run Sleep Powder and Spikes together on the same set.

 

[/B/utterfree]

I approve of Suspecting Roserade. While I would go farther and just vote a ban for Roserade, if it at least gets Suspected, the chance of it being banned will be high. Roserade as a Pokemon is much too versatile for UU (I literally just combined every set on Smogon into one set that I use - bulky Toxic Spikes Special sweeper: all the bacon in the worlde couldn't save you now).

Once Roserade is (hopefully) gone, the UU metagame will be closer to meeting my hunger for balance in it. Screw Sand Veil, that's not really important (the only true user of it in UU is an NFE Pokemon who is absurdly easy to kill - I don't have trouble with it at all). Sand as a playstyle has lessened in popularity when I last played UU (a little less than a week ago).

 

[pokemonisfun]

I'm operating under the assumption that people will once day realize that "suspect" does not necessarily == "ban", so bear with me here.

To summarize where I stand as a senator:

• I support a ban on Sand as a whole because I think it makes the meta shit, but will settle for a ban on Sand Veil.
• I support a suspecting on Roserade because I believe its offensive capabilities in addition to its support capabilities make it "a little too good." Whether I would actually vote to ban it is a whole different story.

Would you please tell me the definition of suspect then (I already know what ban means) just to clarify?

Also can we please talk about Sand Veil guys

It would not kill any senator to give a simple one sentence post saying "I (do not) support the ban of sand veil because of aforementioned posts" would it?

Screw Sand Veil, that's not really important (the only true user of it in UU is an NFE Pokemon who is absurdly easy to kill - I don't have trouble with it at all). Sand as a playstyle has lessened in popularity when I last played UU (a little less than a week ago).

As I have already said several times, it does not matter, in my opinion, if sand veil is a minor thing or a major thing, rather it matters if it is a bad thing or a good thing. Minor and major determine the priority of the ban/suspecting while bad and good determine the validity/necessity. I have said why I think it is a bad thing. Seeing as the metagame is fairly balanced, according to most people, then it makes sense to start banning the minor things.

Also, Gligar is hardly easy to kill, I think all rational players can agree on that. If you would, could you please tell how you are having such as easy time with it? You would have to be running stall or several special attackers or several super effective attackers to beat it easily, in my opinion.

Just another quick question to all, since I noticed everyone is centralizing around Roserade (if Spikes are troubling, Roserade would be the first to go) then specifically with what set is Roserade breaking the game? I assume we are talking about as a defensive Spiker since this whole thing started about Spikes but as FastFlygon mentioned we really shouldn't forget the other Roserade sets.

 

[/B/utterfree]

I have four Pokes on my team who generally do not find Gligar to be challenging whatsoever:

1. Gligar's easiness to kill stems from me generally OHKOing it using a Life Orb-boosted (doesn't even have to be Rain-boosted to net the KO) Surf from my Kingdra; however, that is only my primary way of dealing with it.

2. I also wall it with Bronzong and nab a clean 2HKO with Macho Brace-boosted Gyro Balls, or hit something else on the switch with EQ/Payback. I set up Trick Room while it fails to hit with Earthquake/Toxic, or while it Roosts.

3. My Snorlax also sets up on it (I use the ability Immunity and a CurseLax set that goes with it) to laugh at the NFE scorpion's face and eventually KO it with a +2/+4 STAB Return.

4. My Roserade also gets to set up Toxic Spikes and leave at-will while Gligar does nothing helpful for its team, or otherwise Giga Drain something on the switch. Since I use Roserade, I know how absurdly powerful it is, even without having to set up Toxic Spikes to prove its worth on my team. Hidden Power Fire and Sludge Bomb are good coverage moves, and I hardly have to worry about any Pokemon otherwise (I can forego HP Fire for Sleep Powder, then laugh at their Steel-type with Arcanine thereafter...)

Then again, there are those who love to use Gligar in non-Sand scenarios because they overestimate its credentials.

My Roserade set:

Roserade @ Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 HP
Moves:
1. Toxic Spikes
2. Giga Drain
3. Sludge Bomb
4. Hidden Power [Fire] / Sleep Powder

This Roserade is a monster, and that's not including Sleep Powder as even a primary option (imo, Roserade can make do with HP Fire against Steels). I use Giga Drain over Leaf Storm for recovery while I still eat Blastoise and other Rapid Spinners for lunch. In fact, my whole team is dedicated to proving how broken Roserade is in UU, generally running Pokes like Arcanine and Kingdra who can switch into Fire-type foes willy-nilly (if I were running Heatproof Bronzong, that would also fit into "switch into Fire-types willy-nilly" - I run Levitate Bronzong, though, who is more a partner for Kingdra than a partner for Roserade). I initially thought about running Technician Roserade (that would have me going into the Dream Worlde metagame though, and require me to run 0 Atk IVs - mostly to laugh at Sableye's Foul Plays - if I were running Roserade in a truly dedicated Trick Room team, then I could also get away with 0 Speed IVs, as well as a Quiet nature), but realized I don't need to (and honestly can't in Standard UU, at least not yet).

 

[666lumberjack]

I don't think either of Roserade's sets are broken individually. If Rose did not have that potential to fire off a LO leaf storm and wreck something on your team, it wouldn't have the same opportunities to set up spikes. Similarly, Roserade is just another heavy hitter without that potential to set up spikes all over your check. It's the unpredictability combined with the ability to fuck you over no matter what she does that makes Roserade so potent for me.