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Duo Destruction - Awards!
- Thread starter Ray Jay
- Start date
If this was your previous argument
Then it's pretty flawed because you don't need to predict at all. You have an advantage from prediction, but you don't need to to win. The opponent double switching over and over again to win is also a pretty absurd argument to make. Especially since Drifloon will not be able to do it more than either Croagunk (even with low HP) and Aron. Don't know why I feel the need to argue for the sake of someone else but im bored.
If Scraggy
Turn 1:
Switch in Gunk
Worst case: take a HJK (6 average + SR)
Croagunk @ 16 HP
Turn 2:
Another HJK
Croagunk used Bulk UP motherfucker
Croagunk +1,+1 @ 10 HP
Turn 3:
master predictor blarajan switches to Drifloon
Croagunk uses Drain Punch
whoosh, immune
Croagunk @ 10 HP
Turn 4:
Croagunk uses Sucker Punch (no matter what)
master predictor Drifloon uses Destiny Bond
Either way, Croagunk isn't attacking if you have Destiny Bond up. So if you spam it, you run out of PP and Sucker Punch automatically wins. Lets say you predict right and use Acrobatics.
Turn 5:
Drifloon uses Acrobatics (best move to use here, HP Fire never KOes and Shadow Ball only has 1/16 to KO)
Croagunk tries to use Bulk Up
Croagunk @ dead
Drifloon @ 75%
Turn 6:
Aron comes in (loses 1 HP from SR)
Drifloon uses HP Fire does 6 avg (3.27 % chance to 3HKO....)
Aron +2 @ 14 HP
Turn 7:
Drifloon uses HP Fire (6)
Aron +4 @ 8 HP
Turn 8:
Aron uses HULK SMASH
bye bye Drifloon
Turn 9:
Scraggy comes in (second switch in, @ 19 HP)
Aron uses Superpower (22 minimum)
Scraggy dies
spuds wins
If Drifloon is in, you do the same thing except he either Acrobatics or you can kill him at +2 rather than +4
No matter what Drifloon can't KO Aron before it sets up faster than it.
For posterity:
Turn 1:
Drifloon @ who cares
master predicts HP Fire
Aron @ 6-SR = 14 HP
Automatic +2 for Aron here, if you switch to Scraggy you lose.
Turn 2:
Drifloon uses Acrobatics (4 damage every time)
Aron +2 @ 10 HP
Drifloon +2 @ who cares
Turn 3:
Drifloon HP Fire
Aron +4 @ 4 HP
Turn 4:
Hulk Smash GG Core
If you HP Fire on turn 2 instead of Acrobatics, you lose quicker because you don't get the +2. Aron would have 8 HP remaining instead of 4 HP.
If you're suggesting a double switch here (which is insane) then he can just go to Gunk and rinse repeat until Drifloon is dead. You would need to double switch 9 times in a row in order to get Aron to a point where you can predict HP Fire and 2HKO it. You would need to double switch 15 times in a row to get Aron to a point where Drifloon can OHKO it. With Stealth Rock up: impossible. Without Stealth Rock up: absurd, terrible argument against it being a counter.
Spuds' core is a counter.
blarajan said:
Then it's pretty flawed because you don't need to predict at all. You have an advantage from prediction, but you don't need to to win. The opponent double switching over and over again to win is also a pretty absurd argument to make. Especially since Drifloon will not be able to do it more than either Croagunk (even with low HP) and Aron. Don't know why I feel the need to argue for the sake of someone else but im bored.
If Scraggy
Turn 1:
Switch in Gunk
Worst case: take a HJK (6 average + SR)
Croagunk @ 16 HP
Turn 2:
Another HJK
Croagunk used Bulk UP motherfucker
Croagunk +1,+1 @ 10 HP
Turn 3:
master predictor blarajan switches to Drifloon
Croagunk uses Drain Punch
whoosh, immune
Croagunk @ 10 HP
Turn 4:
Croagunk uses Sucker Punch (no matter what)
master predictor Drifloon uses Destiny Bond
Either way, Croagunk isn't attacking if you have Destiny Bond up. So if you spam it, you run out of PP and Sucker Punch automatically wins. Lets say you predict right and use Acrobatics.
Turn 5:
Drifloon uses Acrobatics (best move to use here, HP Fire never KOes and Shadow Ball only has 1/16 to KO)
Croagunk tries to use Bulk Up
Croagunk @ dead
Drifloon @ 75%
Turn 6:
Aron comes in (loses 1 HP from SR)
Drifloon uses HP Fire does 6 avg (3.27 % chance to 3HKO....)
Aron +2 @ 14 HP
Turn 7:
Drifloon uses HP Fire (6)
Aron +4 @ 8 HP
Turn 8:
Aron uses HULK SMASH
bye bye Drifloon
Turn 9:
Scraggy comes in (second switch in, @ 19 HP)
Aron uses Superpower (22 minimum)
Scraggy dies
spuds wins
If Drifloon is in, you do the same thing except he either Acrobatics or you can kill him at +2 rather than +4
No matter what Drifloon can't KO Aron before it sets up faster than it.
For posterity:
Turn 1:
Drifloon @ who cares
master predicts HP Fire
Aron @ 6-SR = 14 HP
Automatic +2 for Aron here, if you switch to Scraggy you lose.
Turn 2:
Drifloon uses Acrobatics (4 damage every time)
Aron +2 @ 10 HP
Drifloon +2 @ who cares
Turn 3:
Drifloon HP Fire
Aron +4 @ 4 HP
Turn 4:
Hulk Smash GG Core
If you HP Fire on turn 2 instead of Acrobatics, you lose quicker because you don't get the +2. Aron would have 8 HP remaining instead of 4 HP.
If you're suggesting a double switch here (which is insane) then he can just go to Gunk and rinse repeat until Drifloon is dead. You would need to double switch 9 times in a row in order to get Aron to a point where you can predict HP Fire and 2HKO it. You would need to double switch 15 times in a row to get Aron to a point where Drifloon can OHKO it. With Stealth Rock up: impossible. Without Stealth Rock up: absurd, terrible argument against it being a counter.
Spuds' core is a counter.
Sorry, I didn't notice his Aron has a Fight Gem. It had an Eviolite before. Furthermore, if I use Destiny Bond, then I don't have to make a prediction. If he uses Sucker Punch to OHKO Drifloon before I attack, then he dies to Destiny Bond...that's just how that move works. IE, Drifloon uses Destiny Bond, Croagunk uses Sucker Punch and it fails. Drifloon uses Acrobatics, Croagunk uses Sucker Punch, KOs Drifloon, and dies to Destiny Bond. No predictions.
I just didn't notice the Fight Gem lol. Without Fight Gem, then your scenario is just silly, as Scraggy isn't OHKOed by Superpower. The explanation I gave before worked just fine, and it would have applied just the same here if Aron did not have Fight Gem.
It works now, though I would like to point out some of these counters are veering to the point of ridiculousness. Bulk Up Croagunk / Fight Gem Automatize Superpower Aron? I guesssssssss..........
I just didn't notice the Fight Gem lol. Without Fight Gem, then your scenario is just silly, as Scraggy isn't OHKOed by Superpower. The explanation I gave before worked just fine, and it would have applied just the same here if Aron did not have Fight Gem.
It works now, though I would like to point out some of these counters are veering to the point of ridiculousness. Bulk Up Croagunk / Fight Gem Automatize Superpower Aron? I guesssssssss..........
Yeah, basically what heysup said. It would be life orb on aron in any other situation if there wasn't the possiblity of the opponent just switching around again and again till life orb recoil killed. I'd say superpower on aron is more legit then rest-talking mareep (no offense EM) tbph.
blarajan said:
I think you misread:
Either Drifloon attacks, or uses Destiny Bond. Attacking first would be utterly stupid because this Croagunk can only hit you with Sucker Punch, but it is technically an option. The only other option is to use Destiny Bond.
The turn goes like this:
Croagunk uses Sucker Punch. It fails.
Drifloon uses Destiny Bond.
The next turn, Croagunk uses Bulk Up OR Substitute (doesn't matter which) no matter what and then wins no matter what (barring 2 HS misses from Aron).
If Drifloon attacks, it kills Croagunk then Aron sets up and wins no matter what.
If Drifloon Destiny Bonds, we are back at square one. Croagunk keeps Bulking Up until either Drifloon snaps out of its stupidity and attacks (and then Aron sets up and wins) or Drifloon runs out of Destiny Bond PP and Croagunk sweeps your entire team with +6/+6 (your attack after the last Destiny Bond would break the Substitute, then Sucker Punch would freely KO no matter what you do).
No prediction involved. Destiny Bond does not activate unless he attacks you, which Croagunk won't unless you run out of Destiny Bonds in the first place.
blarajan said:
If we were disallowing ridiculous / overspecialized / etc counters then the only "legitimate non specialized counters with great synergy" would be mine, you could argue EMs, and maybe you could argue for yours (but I could just as easily argue against it).
Let's go bring on the next one!
This core works for a few reasons. Notably, Magnemite is totally useful with Volt Switch against either member of the core. If it's able to take out Drifloon, blarajan has it won as he can sacrifice Magnemite and go to Shelmet. Furthermore, Shelmet by itself can even solo wreck the core under the right circumstances. 1 point.
Due to Aron's ability to set up on Drifloon and take out Scraggy from there, Croagunk has the potential to be a win-win scenario. First off, it greatly hinders the posted Scraggy set, and if Drifloon switches in, it forces it into a problem with Sucker Punch. If Drifloon is out to begin with, the core plays even easier, as Aron easily switches in. 1 point.
This set can't switch in to Scraggy, making it not a counter. Better luck next time prem. 0 points.
Admittedly, the core could struggle against some hax, but the premise is solid enough and will work the vast, vast majority of the time (stuff like two max damage rolls from Scraggy would obviously be a problem for ANY Pokemon. Furthermore, iss cleverly forces Drifloon to consume its Flight Gem through Staryu, making Ducklett's job much easier. 1 point.
Unfortunately, both of these Pokemon had already been used at this point. 0 points.
Sorry, your Pokemon weren't cute enough. 0 points.
Koffing has repeatedly been shown to be a poor answer to Scraggy, Voltorb doesn't really help that in iss' scenarios. 0 points.
After reading your map, it seems that even you agree that your core situationally loses. However, it is able to get the job done most of the time, and as you mapped out your post pretty logically, I'll go ahead and give you the point. 1 point.
Mareep is a clever pseudo Chinchou without the good typing, possessing more than usable Special Defense along with a resistance to Drifloon's Flying-stab. Static makes this easier. Both Pokemon have the ability to repeatedly switch-in with their moveset and almost completely counter the opposing core. 1 point.
Because of Hippopotas' massive bulk, it's capable of dealing enough damage to Scraggy while staying healthy that Drilbur can sweep up later. 1 point.
Bonus Points:
Best Color Scheme: Elevator_Music (+1)
Most Persistent: Chieliee (+1)
New Scoreboard!
blarajan: 3 (+1)
iss: 3 (+1)
elevator_music: 3 (+2)
spuds4ever: 2 (+1)
chieliee: 2 (+2)
Corkscrew: 2
Nanoswine: 1
Heysup: 1 (+1)
Sorry, that was a WIP earlier. Now it's completely finished and the scoreboard has been updated. Next core:
Snover @ Choice Scarf
Naive | Snow Warning
evs: 36 HP / 24 Atk / 36 Def / 184 SpA / 196 Spe
-Blizzard
-Giga Drain
-Ice Shard
-Hidden Power Fire
Staryu @ Eviolite
Timid | Natural Cure
evs: 36 HP / 200 SpA / 240 Spe
-Hydro Pump
-Psychic
-Rapid Spin
-Recover
This round is all or nothing; in other words, if you only post 1 Pokemon, you cannot get half credit, you will only receive the full 2 points or 0 points. Good luck!
ADDITIONALLY, anyone who posts Not a Counter will be immediately disqualified. It's obnoxious on the eyes.
Snover @ Choice Scarf
Naive | Snow Warning
evs: 36 HP / 24 Atk / 36 Def / 184 SpA / 196 Spe
-Blizzard
-Giga Drain
-Ice Shard
-Hidden Power Fire
Staryu @ Eviolite
Timid | Natural Cure
evs: 36 HP / 200 SpA / 240 Spe
-Hydro Pump
-Psychic
-Rapid Spin
-Recover
This round is all or nothing; in other words, if you only post 1 Pokemon, you cannot get half credit, you will only receive the full 2 points or 0 points. Good luck!
ADDITIONALLY, anyone who posts Not a Counter will be immediately disqualified. It's obnoxious on the eyes.
Munchlax @ Eviolite
236 HP / 36 Def / 236 SpD
Adamant (+Atk, -SpA) (apparently 19 and 18 SpD take the exact same damage in this case)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Curse (Yes, I can use Amnesia, but that set is boring)
- Return
I mean this is kind of ridiculous.......it switches into anything any of the core can throw at it. Sets up. Wins.
Return does: minimum 10 damage to Staryu (average 12-13) and is a guaranteed 2HKO.
Return does: minimum 16 damage to Snover (average 16-18) and is a guranteed 2HKO even with Giga Drain.
Strongest move: Staryu's Hydro Pump (9 damage, max 10). It can even roll 2 max damage Hydro Pumps and still not KO. The Amnesia set would be able to take all 3 max rolls.
Turn 1:
Staryu HPump
Munchlax switches into Stealth Rock (4) - Hail (1) - Hydro Pump (9)
Munchlax @ 19 HP
Turn 2:
Staryu HPump
Munchlax Rest -1 Hail
Munchlax @ 32 HP
Turn 3:
Staryu HPump
Munchlax Sleep Talk
Hail
Munchlax @ 22 HP
Turn 4:
Staryu HPump
Munchlax Sleep Talk
Hail
Munchlax @ 12 HP
Turn 5:
Staryu HPump
Munchlax Rest
Hail
Cycle goes on and on until Staryu faints. +2 Return 100% OHKOes Staryu. +1 Return will OHKO with hail damage.
Turn N:
Snover comes in. Uses Giga Drain (6) - Munchlax is never below 12 HP.
Munchlax OHKOes Snover (even with just +1 it OHKOes). After SR it has a 50% to OHKO with +0 Return.
GG. I don't need SR. SR doesn't stop me. Munchlax is never full.
Record fastest counter ever?
reserving lickitung
Lickitung (M) @ (No Item)
Trait: Cloud Nine
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Amnesia
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Frustration
SR damage : 3
Hydro Pump: 16 Atk vs 27 Def & 26 HP (120 Base Power): 7 - 10 (26.92% - 38.46%)
at +2 spdef: 16 Atk vs 56 Def & 26 HP (120 Base Power): 4 - 6 (15.38% - 23.08%)
Blizzard: 15 Atk vs 27 Def & 26 HP (120 Base Power): 7 - 10 (26.92% - 38.46%)
at +2 spdef: 15 Atk vs 56 Def & 26 HP (120 Base Power): 4 - 6 (15.38% - 23.08%)
Frustration vs Staryu: 15 Atk vs 18 Def & 20 HP (102 Base Power): 9 - 12 (45.00% - 60.00%)
Frustration vs Snover: 15 Atk vs 12 Def & 23 HP (102 Base Power): 15 - 18 (65.22% - 78.26%)
As the calcs show, Lickitung can come in on any move, even after SR, to take another one and rest up. Because of Cloud Nine, Blizzard has only 70% accuracy, despite Snow Warning.
If at full health (meaning, after Rest), Lickitung can almost always live two hydro pump/blizzard at +0 and one at +2.
The chance of hitting 2/2 70% moves: 0.49%. Chance of sleep talk not choosing Amnesia in 2 turns: 0.435 Chance of both happening: 0.213. I think you guys can see the rest, anyway see this as a temporary thingy as i'm still looking for better ones
EDIT: also this is assuming max damage n stuff
OH I'M SO RESERVING SURSKIT
Lickitung (M) @ (No Item)
Trait: Cloud Nine
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Amnesia
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Frustration
SR damage : 3
Hydro Pump: 16 Atk vs 27 Def & 26 HP (120 Base Power): 7 - 10 (26.92% - 38.46%)
at +2 spdef: 16 Atk vs 56 Def & 26 HP (120 Base Power): 4 - 6 (15.38% - 23.08%)
Blizzard: 15 Atk vs 27 Def & 26 HP (120 Base Power): 7 - 10 (26.92% - 38.46%)
at +2 spdef: 15 Atk vs 56 Def & 26 HP (120 Base Power): 4 - 6 (15.38% - 23.08%)
Frustration vs Staryu: 15 Atk vs 18 Def & 20 HP (102 Base Power): 9 - 12 (45.00% - 60.00%)
Frustration vs Snover: 15 Atk vs 12 Def & 23 HP (102 Base Power): 15 - 18 (65.22% - 78.26%)
As the calcs show, Lickitung can come in on any move, even after SR, to take another one and rest up. Because of Cloud Nine, Blizzard has only 70% accuracy, despite Snow Warning.
If at full health (meaning, after Rest), Lickitung can almost always live two hydro pump/blizzard at +0 and one at +2.
The chance of hitting 2/2 70% moves: 0.49%. Chance of sleep talk not choosing Amnesia in 2 turns: 0.435 Chance of both happening: 0.213. I think you guys can see the rest, anyway see this as a temporary thingy as i'm still looking for better ones
EDIT: also this is assuming max damage n stuff
OH I'M SO RESERVING SURSKIT
Spoink (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 196 HP / 116 SAtk / 196 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
With immense special bulk (25/27 after Eviolite I believe) and a resisting 3/4 of Snover's moveset. As well as Psychic from Staryu Spoink is nearly immune to the core. All calcs are done assuming Stealth Rock is on my side of the field.
When switching in on Snover:
Stealth Rock does 3 damage to Spoink 25 hp --> 22 hp
Giga Drain does 6 damage to Spoink ---> 22hp -> 16 hp
Hail does 1 damage to Spoink ---> 16 hp -> 15hp
Next you set up Calm Mind as seven more damage is done leaving you with 8HP and +1 SpDef
Now Snover can only deal 4 damage per turn so you can safely rest up and boost in your sleep.
If they switch to Staryu as you calm mind you win even easier since you will have 14hp and Staryu can only deal 6 damage per turn so you can safely rest up.
Switching in on Staryu is a little bit more difficult.
25 HP -> 22 HP from Stealth Rock
22 HP -> 13 HP from Hydro Pump
13 HP -> 12 HP from Hail.
12 HP -> 3HP from Hydro Pump
3HP -> 2 HP from Hail.
Now you use Rest and Staryu can only 3HKO you as you can set up with ease and drain PP from Hydro Pump.
While Sleeping if you get Calm Mind at all you win, if you only get rest and Psychic if Staryu crits you lose. But since Hydro Pump only has 8 PP you don't have to stall for long.
You know what, if it's a crazy situational counter you want, it's a crazy situational counter you'll get.
Mantyke (M) @ Eviolite Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 156 HP / 200 SAtk / 120 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Rest
- Rain Dance
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Toxic
Now why does this work? Easy! It resists or takes barely anything from 7/8 of the moves selected. The only problematic scenario whatsoever is it switching into a Snover's Blizzard with Stealth Rock up. Okay, so Snover does 7 damage with Blizzard (9 with max damage). Mantyke has 23 HP, takes 5 HP from Stealth Rock, and loses 1 HP a turn from Hail. It goes like this...
184 SpAtk Snover Blizzard vs 156 HP/120 SpDef Eviolite Mantyke (+SpDef) : 30.43% - 39.13%
Possible HP Damage: 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9
Mantyke has full health, switches into a Snover max damage Blizzard with Stealth Rock up, and takes Hail damage
23 - 5 - 9 - 1 = 8
Snover uses Blizzard again (no max damage!) and Mantyke uses Rain Dance!
8 - 7 = 1
Mantyke has 3 HP left, and now outspeeds Snover (11 Speed min goes to 22 with Swift Swim...Snover has 21).
HP Flying OHKOes Snover (75% of the time, and Blizzard is now only 70% accurate...so Mantyke comes out on top here 82.5% of the time...if you really care about that you can use HP Fire instead of HP Flying to guarantee that but I really didn't want to as I want to maintain some shred of pride at the end of this)
There are now three turns of Rain left.
Mantyke uses Rest, Staryu uses Hydro Pump (rain boosted)
Two turns left
Mantyke is asleep, Staryu uses Hydro Pump (rain boosted)
One turn left
Mantyke is asleep, Staryu uses Hydro Pump (rain boosted)
Zero turns left
Staryu outspeeds, uses Psychic, Mantyke uses Rest
and GG from this point I guess
196 SpAtk Staryu Hydro Pump vs 156 HP/120 SpDef Eviolite Mantyke (+SpDef) : 17.39% - 26.09%
Possible HP Damage: 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6
^ Rain
196 SpAtk Staryu Hydro Pump vs 156 HP/120 SpDef Eviolite Mantyke (+SpDef) : 13.04% - 17.39% (6-8 hits to KO)
Possible HP Damage: 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4
^ No Rain
196 SpAtk Staryu Psychic vs 156 HP/120 SpDef Eviolite Mantyke (+SpDef) : 17.39% - 21.74%
Possible HP Damage: 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5
The only way Staryu can KO Mantyke in this scenario is if it gets three max damage roll Hydro Pumps in a row when it's raining and a max damage psychic (6+6+6+5=23) but the odds of that are...7.8125*10^-4%!!
Mantyke (M) @ Eviolite Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 156 HP / 200 SAtk / 120 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Rest
- Rain Dance
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Toxic
Now why does this work? Easy! It resists or takes barely anything from 7/8 of the moves selected. The only problematic scenario whatsoever is it switching into a Snover's Blizzard with Stealth Rock up. Okay, so Snover does 7 damage with Blizzard (9 with max damage). Mantyke has 23 HP, takes 5 HP from Stealth Rock, and loses 1 HP a turn from Hail. It goes like this...
184 SpAtk Snover Blizzard vs 156 HP/120 SpDef Eviolite Mantyke (+SpDef) : 30.43% - 39.13%
Possible HP Damage: 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9
Mantyke has full health, switches into a Snover max damage Blizzard with Stealth Rock up, and takes Hail damage
23 - 5 - 9 - 1 = 8
Snover uses Blizzard again (no max damage!) and Mantyke uses Rain Dance!
8 - 7 = 1
Mantyke has 3 HP left, and now outspeeds Snover (11 Speed min goes to 22 with Swift Swim...Snover has 21).
HP Flying OHKOes Snover (75% of the time, and Blizzard is now only 70% accurate...so Mantyke comes out on top here 82.5% of the time...if you really care about that you can use HP Fire instead of HP Flying to guarantee that but I really didn't want to as I want to maintain some shred of pride at the end of this)
There are now three turns of Rain left.
Mantyke uses Rest, Staryu uses Hydro Pump (rain boosted)
Two turns left
Mantyke is asleep, Staryu uses Hydro Pump (rain boosted)
One turn left
Mantyke is asleep, Staryu uses Hydro Pump (rain boosted)
Zero turns left
Staryu outspeeds, uses Psychic, Mantyke uses Rest
and GG from this point I guess
196 SpAtk Staryu Hydro Pump vs 156 HP/120 SpDef Eviolite Mantyke (+SpDef) : 17.39% - 26.09%
Possible HP Damage: 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6
^ Rain
196 SpAtk Staryu Hydro Pump vs 156 HP/120 SpDef Eviolite Mantyke (+SpDef) : 13.04% - 17.39% (6-8 hits to KO)
Possible HP Damage: 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4
^ No Rain
196 SpAtk Staryu Psychic vs 156 HP/120 SpDef Eviolite Mantyke (+SpDef) : 17.39% - 21.74%
Possible HP Damage: 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5
The only way Staryu can KO Mantyke in this scenario is if it gets three max damage roll Hydro Pumps in a row when it's raining and a max damage psychic (6+6+6+5=23) but the odds of that are...7.8125*10^-4%!!
EDIT: Changing to Bronzor
Fuck all the counters got snatched up fast -___-
Ok
[pimg]441[/pimg]
Bronzor @ Eviolite
Trait: Heatproof
EVs: 220 HP / 4 SAtk / 228 SDef / 12 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Psychic
This plays very similarly to Raseri's Spoink, but has numerous advantages. It resists Giga Drain, so Snover can't heal up against it. It also resists Stealth Rock and is immune to Spikes and Tspikes, which if they are on the field allow Staryu to beat Spoink when it switches in. The most Snover can do is 4-6 HP with HP Fire, so Bronzor can switch in safely, Calm Mind, then rest back up and start Sleep Talking. Staryu is tougher to switch into, but like with Spoink you can just Restalk until you get a Calm Mind or Staryu runs out of PP.
Fuck all the counters got snatched up fast -___-
Ok
[pimg]441[/pimg]
Bronzor @ Eviolite
Trait: Heatproof
EVs: 220 HP / 4 SAtk / 228 SDef / 12 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Psychic
This plays very similarly to Raseri's Spoink, but has numerous advantages. It resists Giga Drain, so Snover can't heal up against it. It also resists Stealth Rock and is immune to Spikes and Tspikes, which if they are on the field allow Staryu to beat Spoink when it switches in. The most Snover can do is 4-6 HP with HP Fire, so Bronzor can switch in safely, Calm Mind, then rest back up and start Sleep Talking. Staryu is tougher to switch into, but like with Spoink you can just Restalk until you get a Calm Mind or Staryu runs out of PP.
Duskull (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 196 HP / 116 SAtk / 196 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Trick Room
- Memento
- Destiny Bond
- Shadow Ball
Cranidos (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 220 HP / 236 Atk / 36 Def
Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
- Head Smash
- Head Smash
- Head Smash
- Head Smash
Switch in Duskull, who can come in with a decent amount of security on just about everything bar Hydro Pump (33.3% - 47.6%), but even then it can come in on that. Set up Trick Room then kill yourself.
Switch in Cranidos and use HEAD SMASH!
That's pretty much it.
Duskull (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 196 HP / 116 SAtk / 196 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Trick Room
- Memento
- Destiny Bond
- Shadow Ball
Cranidos (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 220 HP / 236 Atk / 36 Def
Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
- Head Smash
- Head Smash
- Head Smash
- Head Smash
Switch in Duskull, who can come in with a decent amount of security on just about everything bar Hydro Pump (33.3% - 47.6%), but even then it can come in on that. Set up Trick Room then kill yourself.
Switch in Cranidos and use HEAD SMASH!
That's pretty much it.
This may work in a vacuum, but with Stealth Rock up Duskull can be 2HKO'd by Hydro Pump. Also, if we take counter to mean that your Pokemon/pair can take on the given core numerous times throughout a match, this falls short. Duskull can only set up TR once and then it dies, and if the 5 turns are stalled out before you take out the core Cranidos becomes dead weight, and no longer can be considered a counter.
Actually with Stealth Rock alone it would be fine, but with weather damage it would not be.
I mean this is getting a little situational, but assuming there is Stealth Rock up before Snover comes out, both Blizzard and Staryu's Hydro Pump have a 87% chance to 2HKO with Stealth Rock + hail.
(Try a different Trick room set up mon, there are lots that survive 2 hits from both of these newb mons).
Scraggy @ eviolite
Trait: Shed Skin EVs: 196 HP / 76 Atk / 36 Def / 196 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
-Drain Punch
-Crunch
-Rest / Hi Jump Kick
-Dragon Dance
okay this set probably makes no sense, but max/max+ spdef scraggy can totally beat this core no issue. with its huge bulk, its nto 2hkoed by practically anything and only takes 6% from sr so thats a plus.
Snover
-Blizzard- Snover (200 EVs, Neutral Nature) Blizzard vs Scraggy@Evolution Stone (196/196 EVs, +Nature): 29.1 ~ 41.6% (7 ~ 10 HP). switch in on snover with ease and spam drain punch. hail+sr=3 damage. 2 max damage rolls scraggy still wins
-Giga Drain- weaker than blizzard so same applies for the other three.
-Ice Shard
-Hidden Power Fire
staryu
-hydro Pump-Staryu (200 EVs, Neutral Nature) Hydro Pump vs Scraggy@Evolution Stone (196/196 EVs, +Nature): 37.5 ~ 50% (9 ~ 12 HP). i guess more difficult because 2 max damage rolls can kill scraggy, but it can easily rest up damage and drain punch.
-rapid spin- lol
-psychic- no damage
-recover-no damage and i get free healing
dragon dance is incase you come in as a revenge troll and then decide to dd, even though you will still be slower than both of them without +2
doing work for ray jay
I hate to be that guy (at least I'm not iss), but I don't see how you effectively counter this....
Turn 1.
Scraggy switches in. Stealth Rock (1 HP? I think?)
Staryu uses HPump (10 damage)
Hail (1 HP)
Scraggy @ 12 HP
Staryu @ 19 HP
You have to rest here otherwise you die.
Turn 2.
Staryu HPump
Scraggy Rest
Scraggy @ 23
Staryu @ 18
Turn 3.
Staryu HPump (10 dmg)
Scraggy Sleep
Scraggy @ 12
Shed Skin has a 49% chance of not activating 2 turns in a row. If it doesn't activate here, you lose :/
You can't even get an attack off until Shed Skin activates the turn after rest (30%), giving Staryu more opportunities to land 2 max damage rolls.
Someone should check my math, im a little rusty at Pokemath.
Well now I'm being that guy.
This is going to be tl;dr due to the long assness of countering with a defensive counter relying on Rest.
Once Mantyke switches in, Staryu is also coming in regardless because it (as in, the combination of Snover + Staryu) basically wins 100% of the time against your Mantyke and it all starts with Staryu.
First of all, Staryu will almost assuredly get at the very least one, but most likely more SpD drops because you can't safely kill it with Toxic or immense prediction (switching to Snover) due to natural cure + Recover + free switches from Rest. If you get to -2, Psychic 3HKOes you 100% of the time, which is enough due to Rest's period of incapacitation. Even if you get just one, Snover can 2HKO and guaranteed 3HKO. If this was the only problem, I'm sure Ray Jay may think about giving you the benefit of the doubt, though the chance of 2 SpD drops happening in 13 Psychics is reasonably high (10%, 13 attacks, do the math if you like). I won't speak for him :)
However, the obvious truth is that you're going to be forced to Rest a number of times against Staryu. Instead of spamming Psychic and possibly getting SpD drops, Staryu can just simply switch out to Snover.
This is what happens if you ever use Rest with Staryu in play:
Using your calcs, I'll assume minimum damage (7) every time. I get minimum 6 maximum 8 for some reason when I calculate it. I'm using your calculations assuming mine is fucked up somehow. With mine it's the same scenario it just needs one max damage roll, and considering it can switch to Staryu and back pretty freely ~4 times (with Stealth Rock....), it will get all 8 Blizzards off so a max roll is likely to happen at least once. Note, this is also assuming NO SpD drops from Staryu and only switching when you're forced to Rest (you should be able to counter without making absurd predictions like risking dying vs Staryu to catch Snover with HP Flying). With a SpD drop Blizzard automatically wins (and since you can't straight up kill Staryu.....that will probably happen anyway).
Turn 1:
Snover switches in.
Mantyke rests. 22 HP
next turn:
Snover uses Blizzard + hail damage (8)
mantyke at 14, asleep.
next turn:
Snover uses Blizzard + hail damage (8)
Mantyke at 6, asleep.
next turn:
Snover uses Blizzard without Hail damage (7)
Mantyke @ dead.
I'm think you could actually fix your set a bit to have it win 100% of the time but I'll let you figure that out :).
If I'm missing something (like i did last time) let me know.
Either way, with Staryu out:
If Staryu is out,
turn 1.
Mantyke switches in, takes SR (5) + Psychic (4) + hail (1)
Mantyke @ 13 HP
Staryu @ 19
turn 2.
Mantyke uses Toxic + hail (1)
Staryu uses Psychic + hail (5)
Staryu @ 17 (psn)
Mantyke @ 8 HP
Here you basically have to Rain Dance and Staryu can just spam Psychic but that's your best move because it stops the Snover switch and stops you dying to Staryu. IF you rest, you risk Snover coming in and winning. IF you HP Flying, Staryu can just lower you to 3 HP.
turn 3.
Staryu uses Psychic (4 HP)
Mantyke uses Rain Dance (5 turns)
Staryu @ 15 (psn) HP
Mantyke @ 4 HP
You lose here. Snover comes in. If you Rain Dance, Ice Shard KOes (4 HP). If you Toxic you get KOed by Blizzard. If you HP Flying you can KO Snover but Staryu KOes you after. If you rest, Snover KOes you with Blizzards (read above).
P.S. If my calcs were right, this is basically a rinse-repeat process where you lose after either a) a max damage Blizzard or b) a SpD drop or c) a crit (and if you crit Staryu you still won't win).
prem said:
I hate to be that guy (at least I'm not iss), but I don't see how you effectively counter this....
Turn 1.
Scraggy switches in. Stealth Rock (1 HP? I think?)
Staryu uses HPump (10 damage)
Hail (1 HP)
Scraggy @ 12 HP
Staryu @ 19 HP
You have to rest here otherwise you die.
Turn 2.
Staryu HPump
Scraggy Rest
Scraggy @ 23
Staryu @ 18
Turn 3.
Staryu HPump (10 dmg)
Scraggy Sleep
Scraggy @ 12
Shed Skin has a 49% chance of not activating 2 turns in a row. If it doesn't activate here, you lose :/
You can't even get an attack off until Shed Skin activates the turn after rest (30%), giving Staryu more opportunities to land 2 max damage rolls.
Someone should check my math, im a little rusty at Pokemath.
blarajan said:
Mantyke (M) @ Eviolite Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 156 HP / 200 SAtk / 120 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Rest
- Rain Dance
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Toxic
Well now I'm being that guy.
This is going to be tl;dr due to the long assness of countering with a defensive counter relying on Rest.
Once Mantyke switches in, Staryu is also coming in regardless because it (as in, the combination of Snover + Staryu) basically wins 100% of the time against your Mantyke and it all starts with Staryu.
First of all, Staryu will almost assuredly get at the very least one, but most likely more SpD drops because you can't safely kill it with Toxic or immense prediction (switching to Snover) due to natural cure + Recover + free switches from Rest. If you get to -2, Psychic 3HKOes you 100% of the time, which is enough due to Rest's period of incapacitation. Even if you get just one, Snover can 2HKO and guaranteed 3HKO. If this was the only problem, I'm sure Ray Jay may think about giving you the benefit of the doubt, though the chance of 2 SpD drops happening in 13 Psychics is reasonably high (10%, 13 attacks, do the math if you like). I won't speak for him :)
However, the obvious truth is that you're going to be forced to Rest a number of times against Staryu. Instead of spamming Psychic and possibly getting SpD drops, Staryu can just simply switch out to Snover.
This is what happens if you ever use Rest with Staryu in play:
Using your calcs, I'll assume minimum damage (7) every time. I get minimum 6 maximum 8 for some reason when I calculate it. I'm using your calculations assuming mine is fucked up somehow. With mine it's the same scenario it just needs one max damage roll, and considering it can switch to Staryu and back pretty freely ~4 times (with Stealth Rock....), it will get all 8 Blizzards off so a max roll is likely to happen at least once. Note, this is also assuming NO SpD drops from Staryu and only switching when you're forced to Rest (you should be able to counter without making absurd predictions like risking dying vs Staryu to catch Snover with HP Flying). With a SpD drop Blizzard automatically wins (and since you can't straight up kill Staryu.....that will probably happen anyway).
Turn 1:
Snover switches in.
Mantyke rests. 22 HP
next turn:
Snover uses Blizzard + hail damage (8)
mantyke at 14, asleep.
next turn:
Snover uses Blizzard + hail damage (8)
Mantyke at 6, asleep.
next turn:
Snover uses Blizzard without Hail damage (7)
Mantyke @ dead.
I'm think you could actually fix your set a bit to have it win 100% of the time but I'll let you figure that out :).
If I'm missing something (like i did last time) let me know.
Either way, with Staryu out:
If Staryu is out,
turn 1.
Mantyke switches in, takes SR (5) + Psychic (4) + hail (1)
Mantyke @ 13 HP
Staryu @ 19
turn 2.
Mantyke uses Toxic + hail (1)
Staryu uses Psychic + hail (5)
Staryu @ 17 (psn)
Mantyke @ 8 HP
Here you basically have to Rain Dance and Staryu can just spam Psychic but that's your best move because it stops the Snover switch and stops you dying to Staryu. IF you rest, you risk Snover coming in and winning. IF you HP Flying, Staryu can just lower you to 3 HP.
turn 3.
Staryu uses Psychic (4 HP)
Mantyke uses Rain Dance (5 turns)
Staryu @ 15 (psn) HP
Mantyke @ 4 HP
You lose here. Snover comes in. If you Rain Dance, Ice Shard KOes (4 HP). If you Toxic you get KOed by Blizzard. If you HP Flying you can KO Snover but Staryu KOes you after. If you rest, Snover KOes you with Blizzards (read above).
P.S. If my calcs were right, this is basically a rinse-repeat process where you lose after either a) a max damage Blizzard or b) a SpD drop or c) a crit (and if you crit Staryu you still won't win).