Duo Destruction - Awards!

My problem with Chieliee's counter primarily is that it's a one shot pony. I'm sorry, but I really don't want to read those paths, so I'm going to assume Chieliee mapped them out perfectly.

My problem is...why would I stay in? Like, after I use up your Coba berry or w/e on Cottonee, or you Memento, or w/e happens, I don't understand why I would stay in with Scraggy, or switch Drifloon in there. At least for previous counters, the counter can switch in at various points in the match and always end up on top. Or, it has a manner in which it can win that can happen more than once. If we take my Magnemite / Shelmet, for example, I can pull my way to win any time that Scraggy or Drifloon comes in. For Scraggy, I can always switch to Shelmet, and for Drifloon, I can always switch in to Magnemite. It will have to give up its Flying gem eventually, and will be inherently unthreatening at that point, especially if it decides to switch out. For this, though, you have only one shot--there's nothing stopping me from switching Scraggy out and then just loling as you now can no longer switch in to Scraggy at any point in the match. HJK will then smash your Archen or put it in Defeatist range, and will definitely be OHKOed by a +1.

That's the thing. I don't doubt your ability to handle the core, but I doubt your ability to handle the core more than once. Your counter is a one shot deal, and if it doesn't work the first time (as in, I don't switch in a Pokemon that is inherently defeated by a Pokemon you brought out)...you lose.

Whether this is points against it, I don't know. But that's what worries me about Cottonee / Archen.


As for Nanoswine...sorry, Koffing has been used. Otherwise, Drifloon ends up beating Koffing as was shown before by Iss and I, and then Scraggy beats Voltorb 1v1. The addition of Voltorb doesn't help Koffing, sorry. Sorry this isn't as detailed as it could be, but I'm so so lazy right now, and how Koffing loses has already been outlined before.

Not a counter
 
So far, blara and iss's cores are looking pretty solid (Dracoyoshi obviously has it won, but play along guys).

Unfortunately cork your core is illegal due to previously used mons.

Blara, Nano was the first person to use Koffing so he is free to use it- nano, refute blara's post then we'll see where we're at. The lack of recovery scares me though.

Good job everyone so far, keep up the good work!
 
blarajan said:
As for Nanoswine...sorry, Koffing has been used. Otherwise, Drifloon ends up beating Koffing as was shown before by Iss and I, and then Scraggy beats Voltorb 1v1. The addition of Voltorb doesn't help Koffing, sorry. Sorry this isn't as detailed as it could be, but I'm so so lazy right now, and how Koffing loses has already been outlined before.

Not a counter
Click to expand...

Like Ray Jay said, I was the one who used Koffing. Since my post was the last on the previous page though, I decided to make a new one instead of editing the first.

Drifloon doesn't beat Koffing because I don't switch Koffing in on Drifloon. The only time Koffing stays in on Drifloon is if it can take a hit and then Pain Split its health up, otherwise it's a switch out to Voltorb. I already explained this in my post.

Ray Jay, the lack of recovery isn't a huge issue for my core, since Voltorb can always switch in on Drifloon more times than Scraggy can switch in on Voltorb. I can bring Voltorb in on any of Drifloon's moves, and threaten the KO. If the opponent goes to Scraggy from Drifloon, Scraggy eats a T-bolt and a Volt Switch, which will KO if it has already taken damage from Koffing, and otherwise Koffing can come in off the Volt Switch and Sludge Bomb to take it out.
 
presenting the cutest core, dracoyoshi8 can get out of town

[pimg]620[/pimg]
Foongus @ Eviolite
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 124 HP / 236 Def / 76 SpD
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Clear Smog
- Synthesis
[pimg]179[/pimg]
Mareep @ Eviolite
Ability: Static
EVs: 236 HP / 116 Def / 156 SpD
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Heal Bell
- Discharge

Relevant calculations:
+0 Scraggy Crunch vs. Foongus: 7 - 9 (28.00% - 36.00%) [9 only has a 2.56% chance of occurring; 8 can't happen]
+1 Scraggy Crunch vs. Foongus: 10 - 13 (40.00% - 52.00%) [13 only has a 2.56% chance of occurring; will do 12 on average]
+0 Scraggy Drain Punch vs. Foongus: 3 - 4 (12.00% - 16.00%) [4 only has a 2.56% chance of occurring; will heal 2 HP]
+1 Scraggy Drain Punch vs. Foongus: 4 - 6 (25.00% - 37.50%) [6 only has a 2.56% chance of occurring; will do 5 on average; will heal 3 HP on average]
+0 Scraggy Hi Jump Kick vs. Foongus: 6 - 7 (24.00% - 28.00%) [7 only has a 2.56% chance of occurring]
+1 Scraggy Hi Jump Kick vs. Foongus: 8 - 9 (32.00% - 36.00%)

Foongus Giga Drain vs. Scraggy: 6 - 7 (28.57% - 33.33%) [7 only has a 2.56% chance of occurring; will heal 3 HP on average]
Foongus Clear Smog vs. Scraggy: 4 - 6 (19.05% - 28.57%) [6 only has a 2.56% chance of occurring; 5 can't happen]

Drifloon [Flying Gem] Acrobatics vs. Mareep: 7 - 9 (28.00% - 36.00%) [9 only has a 2.56% chance of occurring; will do 8 on average]
Drifloon Acrobatics vs. Mareep: 5 - 6 (20.00% - 24.00%)
Drifloon Shadow Ball vs. Mareep: 6 - 7 (24.00% - 28.00%) [7 only has a 2.56% chance of occurring]

Mareep Discharge vs. Drifloon: 26 - 32 (100.00% - 123.08%)
Mareep Discharge vs. Scraggy: 6 - 7 (28.57% - 33.33%) [7 only has a 2.56% chance of occurring]

Misc. calculations:
+2 Scraggy Crunch vs. Foongus: 13 - 16 (81.25% - 100.00%) [16 only has a 2.56% chance of occurring; will do 15 on average]

Drifloon Hidden Power vs. Mareep: 4 - 5 (16.00% - 20.00%) [5 only has a 2.56% chance of occurring]

I'll add them in later but I really don't care.

How to win:
If Scraggy is out, switch to Foongus. Foongus can sponge Scraggy's hits pretty easily, and cancels out Scraggy boosts with Clear Smog. Not even a +1 Crunch followed by a +0 Crunch can KO (even with SR), so Foongus should be able to Clear Smog and then heal with Synthesis. Scraggy needs to be careful about repeatedly attacking because of Effect Spore, as even with Shed Skin, eventually something unfortunate will happen to it. Really though, you shouldn't be trying to Spore or status hax Scraggy, it's just stupid not to run Spore on Foongus. Foongus's attacks are weaksauce, but Scraggy effectively lacks recovery and only barely 4HKOes you so whatever.

If Drifloon is out, switch to Mareep. Mareep isn't really a good Pokemon at all, but it can take Acrobatics/Shadow Ball directed at Foongus like a champ, and Static is kind of cool I guess. You pretty much just fire off Discharge at Drifloon; Destiny Bond is a non-issue because Mareep is going to be fairly useless in most matches. It also deals alright damage to Scraggy if it switches in, though from there you should go right back to Foongus, because Mareep has no business being in on Scraggy at all.


If you could just pretend that Mareep is Chinchou, I could talk about how this core synergizes well together. But IDK, these mons are pretty cute.
 
@Nanoswine: With good play, Drifloon can get off a Destiny Bond on Voltorb. Taunt/Thunder Wave can be played around with Scraggy. So in last mon Scraggy vs Koffing scenarios, I'm pretty sure you lose. Here are some example ones:

note: Shed Skin is assumed to be 2 turns, which is roughly average.

note: If you both attack, Scraggy has a >61.55% chance (once you factor in the possibility of a Defense drop) of 3HKOing Koffing and winning.

Code: 
Turn 1
Scraggy switches in
Koffing switches in, takes Stealth Rock damage (2 damage)

Koffing 19/21
Scraggy 21/21

Turn 2
Scraggy uses Crunch, average roll (6 damage)
Koffing uses Will-O-Wisp

Koffing 13/21
Scraggy 19/21, burned

Turn 3
Scraggy uses Crunch, average roll (3 damage)
Koffing uses Sludge Bomb, average roll (7 damage)
Shed Skin activates

Koffing 10/21
Scraggy 12/21

Turn 4
Scraggy uses Crunch, average roll (6 damage)
Koffing uses Pain Split

Koffing 8/21
Scraggy 8/21

Turn 5
Scraggy uses Crunch, average roll (6 damage)
Koffing uses Sludge Bomb, average roll (7 damage)

Koffing 1/21
Scraggy 1/21

Turn 6
Scraggy uses Crunch, Koffing is KOed

Code: 
Turn 1
Scraggy switches in
Koffing switches in, takes Stealth Rock damage (2 damage)

Koffing 19/21
Scraggy 21/21

Turn 2
Scraggy uses Crunch, average roll (6 damage)
Koffing uses Will-O-Wisp

Koffing 13/21
Scraggy 19/21, burned

Turn 3
Scraggy uses Crunch, average roll (3 damage)
Koffing uses Sludge Bomb, average roll (7 damage)
Shed Skin activates

Koffing 10/21
Scraggy 12/21

Turn 4
Scraggy uses Crunch, average roll (6 damage)
Koffing uses Will-O-Wisp

Koffing 4/21
Scraggy 10/21, burned

Turn 5
Scraggy uses Crunch, average roll (3 damage)
Koffing uses Sludge Bomb, average roll (7 damage)
Shed Skin activates (although you don't really need it)

Koffing 1/21
Scraggy 3/21

Turn 6
Scraggy uses Crunch, Koffing is KOed

I can't find a scenario where Koffing wins- you either need a very long period of no Shed Skin or rolling max damage with Sludge Bomb (even though Scraggy has a much higher chance of getting a Defense drop/critical hit/high roll with Crunch). I think +1 Scraggy beats Koffing too even after Volt Switch damage, as you have to waste a turn using Clear Smog.

EM's counter looks fine to me.
 
Ok either I'm good at this or doing it wrong


454.png

Hippopotas @ Eviolite
Sand Stream
212 HP / 20 Atk / 212 Def / 20 SpD / 20 Spe
Impish Nature (+Def, -SpA)
- Curse
- Toxic
- Earthquake (Technically stuff like Iron Tail / Rock Slide is better for specifically these two mons but that make's a stupid set).
- Slack Off

EDIT: Apparently SR is a given?.....I'll just calmly add Drilbur.

557.png

Drilbur (M) @ Life Orb Trait: Sand Rush
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 212 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Shadow Claw
- Earthquake
- let's say Rock Slide (doesn't really matter)
- let's say Swords Dance (doesn't really matter)

Against Scraggy:

Switch in Hippopotas who's using Dragon Dance at the very worst, (and if he doesn't you auto-win). On the next turn use Earthquake and then you automatically beat Scraggy (and then Drifloon) with Drilbur depending on if he uses DD (then you Curse the turn after that) or HJK (you faint while he's in KO range of Drilbur). If he uses Crunch he loses or Drain Punch he loses to Hipppopotas.

Drilbur comes in, does 16 minimum with Earthquake. Then he guaranteed OHKOes Drifloon with Shadow Claw.

if you want a more in-depth explanation you can read this: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4253556&postcount=88

Against Drifloon:

Switch in Hippopotas which hard counters it. Acrobatics does 45% with Flight Gem maximum, then he can just Toxic and heal away preventing Destiny Bond.

Either way, the presented core is almost 100% losing to you even with Stealth Rock and the HJK's landing and the worst case scenario Dragon Dance; you at worst lose Hippopotas. If Drilbur was Jolly, it would be 100%, but Adamant is a better set anyway, it's not worth the trade off for the 1/16 chance of not countering them (read post below for explanation of that). Even if you want to switch out of my core, good luck dealing with a set up Drilbur or Hippopotas. You'll almost surely lose the game, not just the core, if they are given the free turns that it would take to switch.

Note that this is even with them having Stealth Rock, and I don't need it to counter them.
 
Hippopotas gets KOed by Stealth Rock, a +1 HJK, and another +1 HJK when you're at +1.


Stealth Rock: 1 damage
+1 Hi Jump Kick: 13-16 (50 - 61.53%) (15 average)
+1 Hi Jump Kick vs +1 Hippopotas: 9-12 (34.61 - 46.15%) (10 average)

15 + 10 + 1 = 26 = your HP.
 
Iss keeps saying what I want to say =(. Also, sorry about the confusion earlier, Nanoswine; I had forgotten that you had used Koffing before. Scraggy beats Koffing 1v1 anyways, so it looks like it still loses.

I think as of now the only actual counters in this thread are mine, Iss's, and Emma's.
 
Right Stealth Rock....I was confused because some of the other accepted counters don't work with Stealth Rock in play. I edited in the obvious partner in to conform to the Stealth Rock rule.

blarajan said:
646.png

Shelmet (M) @ Eviolite Trait: Shell Armor
EVs: 116 HP / 236 Def / 156 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Acid Armor
- Toxic
- Recover
- Bug Buzz
81.png

Magnemite @ Eviolite
Trait: Magnet Pull
EVs: 156 HP / 36 Def / 240 SAtk / 76 SDef
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Thunder Wave
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Flash Cannon
Click to expand...

I actually have a problem with this. You don't counter the core if Drifloon starts.

If you switch to Shelmet first and take whatever, you are guaranteed to be OHKOed by Acrobatics which makes Shelmet not a good counter for Drifloon. Even if you predict right twice in a row (for a counter.....you shouldn't need to outpredict your opponent so many times), Acrobatics can be blown on Magnemite, but then it can simply switch out and you're in a worse scenario than the one you're in below because Shelmet can't even reliably take a +1 Crunch (nevermind 2 Crunches) due to switching into Stealth Rock twice. Here is the other option, switching to Magnemite first.

Turn 1.

Drifloon comes out first on whatever, uses HP Fire. Your safe switch, Magnemite, takes the hit and sits at 12 HP (8 on average HP Fire, -1 Stealth Rock = 9, 21-9 = 12).

Turn 2. Here's where the problem starts. Drifloon can simply just switch out.

Switch to Scraggy. Takes the Thunder Wave (as you suggest to use, and I agree it's the best move for that scenario if you want to avoid KOing Magnemite).

Turn 3.

Magnemite is forced out, (depending on if Shed Skin activates, you can Volt Switch). Switch to Shelmet and can take the Crunch (7 on average). Shelmet is now sitting at 11 (-12 HP from Crunch + Stealth Rock). Shed Skin, if we assume 2 turns on average (like we have been for this whole time) will remove Scraggy's paralysis and now he actually will guaranteed 2HKO you if you don't Recover (Crunch 7, Crunch vs +2 still hits 4 minimum).

Turn 4.

Switches to Drifloon, you Recover. You're sitting at 22 HP.

here is the problem:

If you stay in here, you have a 75% chance to be OHKOed by Acrobatics. If you survive and Recover, you die to the next Acrobatics. Then Magnemite (who will have 3 HP after HP Fire + Stealth Rock while you KO Drifloon) loses to Scraggy. In order to successfully counter Scraggy, you need a third member of your core to Volt Switch into. Either way, not a counter.

If you switch out to Magnemite, who's sitting at 12, he will take at minimum 5 or 6 (4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5 then +1 Stealth Rock). That puts him at minimum 7 HP. This puts him in HP Fire range, which does 8. This is assuming YOU have perfect prediction too. He could easily hit you with any other attack and keep his Acrobatics for Shelmet or simply for anything else you throw at him.

"well what about Shelmet after you lose your Flight Gem vs Magnemite?" Shelmet comes in, sitting at 17 HP after Stealth Rock. You have a small chance to be OHKOed, but let's assume you don't get OHKOed. Acrobatics still does a minimum of 14. Your Recover only heals 11. You can't win.

Summary of why you lose if Drifloon comes out first and uses HP Fire:

- Drifloon beats Shelmet after Stealth Rock regardless of whether or not it has Flight Gem.
- Drifloon can dent Magnemite into 2HKO range then simply switch out which is what I think you forgot to consider at first. Magnemite's Thunder Wave is useless because Drifloon can just switch out to Scraggy.
- Once Scraggy is out, you can go to Shelmet who will be sitting at 11 after a Crunch, within 2HKO range. The situation can still work if he Dragon Dances first if you counter the probability of Crunch activating over 2 attacks vs rolling max damage (which is a more possible 1/8 this time). However Crunch is guaranteed, so stick with that.
- Drifloon can come back in on whatever attack you use then use Acrobatics to win 100% of the time.

Therefore, those two Pokemon do not counter the core in question.
 
Heysup said:
Right Stealth Rock....I was confused because some of the other accepted counters don't work with Stealth Rock in play. I edited in the obvious partner in to conform to the Stealth Rock rule.
Click to expand...

It is implied that the core has Stealth Rock, three layers of Spikes, two layers of Toxic Spikes, dual screens, Safeguard and Tailwind up.

Seriously, constantly implying hazards are up is a weak argument without any sort of proof that they are. For future rounds, I suggest that it is posted along with the core what field effects are currently active.
 
I don't have time to do a full scenario at the moment but Hippopotas has a good chance of dying to a +3 Hi Jump Kick unless you use Slack Off, which lets Scraggy get to +4. A +3/+1 HJK followed by a +3/+2 HJK also will KO Hippopotas. At +3, Scraggy outspeeds Drilbur. If you use Curse first, you risk getting Hi Jump Kicked twice for the KO, and then Drilbur is unable to KO Scraggy. Hippopotas can only 3HKO Scraggy, so you can't simply kill it with Earthquake before it gets to +3.
 
iss said:
I don't have time to do a full scenario at the moment but Hippopotas has a good chance of dying to a +3 Hi Jump Kick unless you use Slack Off, which lets Scraggy get to +4. A +3/+1 HJK followed by a +3/+2 HJK also will KO Hippopotas. At +3, Scraggy outspeeds Drilbur. If you use Curse first, you risk getting Hi Jump Kicked twice for the KO, and then Drilbur is unable to KO Scraggy. Hippopotas can only 3HKO Scraggy, so you can't simply kill it with Earthquake before it gets to +3.
Click to expand...

Wrong. Well, I should have made it more clear in my post, but this is still very wrong.

Turn 1.
Scraggy +1, 19 HP (sr/ss
Hippopotas 25 HP

Turn 2.
Scraggy +2
Hippopotas Earthquake
Scraggy @ 19-9(EQ)-1 (ss)=9 HP

Turn 3.
Here I just need to Curse and you lose:

Scraggy +3 @ 8 HP
Hippopotas +1 @ 25 HP

Turn 4.
HJK does 16 average
EQ KOes.
Hippopotas @ 9 HP
Scraggy @ 0 HP
Drifloon @ full HP - stealth rock etc

Turn 5.
Drifloon uses Flight Gem Acrobatics: 7 average
Hippopotas Slack Off, 2 HP + 13 = 15 HP left.

Turn 6.
Drifloon uses Shadow Ball: 7 Average
Hippopotas Slack Off
Hippopotas @ 21

Turn 7.
Shadow Ball
Toxic

Turn 8.
Shadow Ball
Slack Off
Drilbur eats Popcorn

etc until Drifloon is dead...which is pretty quickly considering it starts at 75% and Toxic + SS is hurting it, not just Toxic.
Drifloon does have a very small chance to roll max damage. I could just change Drilbur's nature to Jolly and get 100% but I'd rather keep it Adamant since it's a better set and max damage is stupidly unlikely, it's only 1/16. My core is obviously be best synergy-wise and I'd like to keep it that way (though, it would probably still be if I used Jolly).
Scraggy +2 HJK vs Hippopotas: Clean 2HKO
Hippopotas Curse
Scraggy @ 8 HP, +2
Hippopotas @ will die next turn

Turn 4.
(Smart thing to do here would be Drain Punch since automatically I'm going to Earthquake so you can't get another boost)
Scraggy Drain Punch KOes Hippopotas. Heals 2-3 HP depending on HJK roll. -1 SS.
Scraggy @ 9-10 HP
Hippopotas @ dead

Turn 5.
Drilbur Earthquake 16 minimum
Scraggy @ dead

Turn 6.
Drilbur Shadow Claw
Drifloon @ dead as shit
+2 Drain Punch vs Hippopotas does 12 Avg (9% chance to 2HKO - if you 2HKO, you die the same way you did from HJK)
Hippopotas uses Curse
Scraggy +2 @ 9 HP + 6 (Drain Punch) -1(ss) = 14.
Hippopotas +1 @ 13 HP

Turn 4.
I automatically use Slack Off here, if you don't HJK I survive and win the game.

Scraggy uses HJK does 13 Avg
Hippopotas @ KOed
Scraggy @ 13 HP

Turn 5.
Drilbur uses Earthquake
Scraggy @ KOed

Turn 6.
Drilbur uses Shadow Claw
Drifloon @ dead
+2 Crunch does 13 Avg
Hippopotas uses Curse
Scraggy +2 @ 8 HP
Hippopotas +1 @ 12 HP

Turn 4.
Scraggy uses HJK
Hippopotas @ dead
Scraggy @ 7 HP

Turn 5.
Drilbur uses Earthquake
Scraggy @ dead

Turn 6.
Drilbur uses Shadow Claw
Drifloon @ dead

I guess "just Curse and Slack Off as you like" doesn't sum it up but I was lazy. I kinda thought the person who questioned this would actually do the full scenario :/
 
Policy on Stealth Rock: If your core needs it to work, then use your best judgment on whether or not you can assume it. Cores that don't need Stealth Rock to work are obviously stronger, and it is very feasible for someone to come in and say "yo, my core beats it without Stealth Rock, yours needs SR support, therefore my core is better than yours." Also, if you assume you have SR up, it would be wise to assume the opponent has SR up as well for sake of argument.
 
Drifloon cannot get a Destiny Bond off on Voltorb while keeping Scraggy at full health. If it doesn't have the Unburden boost from Acrobatics on the switch, Voltorb will outspeed it and KO. When it activates Unburden, Voltorb Paralyzes it then Taunts next turn if it went for Destiny Bond, and KO's if it went for Shadow Ball. After it Shadow Balls (Acrobatics + Shadow Ball won't KO), Voltorb can KO it without worrying about Destiny Bond. If Drifloon switches to Scraggy at any point here, then Scraggy takes ~ 8 damage from Volt Switch, more if it comes in on T-Bolt, and in that scenario Koffing will win.

If you don't play properly, any core in this thread could lose. My core has a very straightforward process that should be used to eliminate Drifloon and Scraggy, and it will do so every time (barring crits etc) if you play the right moves in a given situation.

Heysup, your core looks p solid. The only way I see Scraggy winning is if it gets to +3, then crits Hippopotas. It's also nice that if it doesn't DD up that high, a crit on Hippo will just allow Drilbur to come in and clean up.
 
Heysup, your scenario would be problematic if Shelmet / Magnemite was played incorrectly. I'm sorry if I was unclear and incorrect in my explanation. If I switch Magnemite into Drifloon and eat an HP Fire, and after looking back at my post, I can see the confusion...I would NOT use Thunder Wave there. You are correct, if the Drifloon user switches into Scraggy and Thunder Wave happens, and they get lucky with Shed Skin, I could get royally fucked by the scenario you presented.

However, you need to keep in mind that if Magnemite has a 1 for 1 with Drifloon, Shelmet fucks Scraggy hard and I win. Thus, if I switch Magnemite into a Drifloon's HP Fire, the correct move would be to Volt Switch. If I can kill Drifloon like that, I win...if I eat a Destiny Bond, I don't care...if he switches to Scraggy, I go to Shelmet, Acid Armor, and Recover stall Acrobatics from Drifloon if it gets switched back to.

I would (and should) only use Thunder Wave if I switch Magnemite into a Flight Gem Acrobatics. I apologize for the confusion. As you can see now, though, if I use Volt Switch instead of Thunder Wave as your scenario hinges upon, and as I should, I have no problem with that situation.

tl;dr I don't give a fuck if Magnemite dies if I can 1 for 1 Drifloon.


Also, regarding entry hazards, it has always been my opinion for these sorts of things that you need to account for an empty field for the core you're trying to counter, while assuming Stealth Rock or maybe even a layer of Spikes up on your field. If you can only counter the core RayJay is presenting under optimal situations, it is not a true counter. Thus, you need to account for hazards hurting you while RayJay's core being able to switch freely. IE, at least Stealth Rock hindering your core while the core you're trying to counter having no hazards up. I feel as if this is reasonable as then anything can fucking counter Larvesta, or something like that. You AREN'T a counter if you require Stealth Rock up to do your job.
 
Yeah, I'm agreeing with blarajan about hazards. Having to assume that Stealth Rock is not down on your side is pretty bs, as this core even has a Ghost to spinblock. It's not like it's that hard to throw down Stealth Rock in LC anyways. I strongly suggest that Ray Jay change this rule.
 
Perhaps my post wasn't clear enough.

If you have to assume SR support to beat the core, are you really countering the core? The answer is obviously no, or at least not to the greatest extent that you should be. Sorry for the confusion. The flip side is also true: if you only beat the core with Rapid Spin support, does your post really single handedly counter the core? Again, no. We will be cracking down on this this round. What I did mean by my earlier post was that it's not wrong to say "I beat this core already, and if I can get SR up, it has even less of a chance."

Sorry for the confusion, ammending the rules.
 
blarajan said:
I'm sorry if I was unclear and incorrect in my explanation. If I switch Magnemite into Drifloon and eat an HP Fire, and after looking back at my post, I can see the confusion...I would NOT use Thunder Wave there. You are correct, if the Drifloon user switches into Scraggy and Thunder Wave happens, and they get lucky with Shed Skin, I could get royally fucked by the scenario you presented.
Click to expand...

Oh ok, I understood it as you already worked those situations out and Thunder Wave was the best option - though if I thought about it for a second it wouldn't have made much sense, my mistake. Your Pokemon definitely do counter the core if you Volt Switch.
 
As a quick update, please note that this round will end Wednesday at about noon EST! Keep up the good work!
 
Just one point Iss, according to my damage calculator:

Scraggy's Crunch vs. Ducklet (80 BP STAB off 17 attack vs. 22 def including eviolite)= 9-10 damage (36% to 40%) which is a 2hko unless he rolls minimum damge on both crunches.

And EM, foongus with the same defenses isn't 2hkoed by crunch after SR, but if your tactic is to stall it out with synthesis till you get a clear shot, what if scraggy gets the defense drop on one of those times? It's only 10% less likely than effect spore kicking in, so I'd say it's a bit shaky too.

Idk, maybe my calculator is just messed up (it's the marriland one). Anyway, my revised core is now up.

453.png

Croagunk @eviolite
EVs: 132 HP, 108 atk, 196 def, 36 SpD, 36 Spe
Dry Skin, Impish
-Drain Punch
-Sucker Punch
-Bulk Up
-Substitute
304.png

Aron @Fight Gem
EVs: 196 Atk, 196 SpD, 116 Spe
Rock Head, Adamant
-Head Smash
-Superpower
-Automotize
-Earthquake

Pretty simple core really and actually works quite well in reality if you add in a levitater and give it a few tweaks (i.e, always use life orb over fight gem in a proper battle). Croagunk switches in easily on scraggy taking maximum 34% from hi jump kick and 6% from SR. Croagunk then either takes another 34% from HJK or the opponent switches to drifloon. Either way, croa bulks up.

If scraggy is in, it won't be able to KO due to the defense boost with HJK so croagunk uses drain punch if you want to play safe, though the opponent will have to be really gutsy/stupid to keep scraggy in. Anyway, for the sake of argument, say he switches drifloon into the drain punch. Croagunk is now sitting at minimum 26%, and this is when your wee bit of prediction comes in. If you predict your opponent will destiny bond, get a sub up, spamming sucker punch for a bit can deter it from using acrobatics. With a sub up, just spam sucker punch. if scraggy comes in, d-punch. If the opponent continues this method (which will only work if SR isn't up on their side) to stall out sucker punch PP, switch in aron on the drifloon double switch. If you're not confident in doing this, you can just let croagunk die to drifloon.

So eventually, you should be able to get aron in on drifloon. While aron is 3hkoed by HP fire, drifloon will be forced to use acrobatics if it wants to out-speed aron at +2, which just makes aron have to get another automotize. At +4, aron will outspeed drifloon at +2 and then headsmash drifloon and/or superpower scraggy, both of which are OHKOes.

So in short, worst case scenario if you don't play like a complete idiot, croa goes down and aron smashes scraggy and drifloon. This is the best I can do I'm afraid and Icba to change it again for a point. Done.
 
Ok, I'll stick to honko's calculator in future (I was gonna say, crap it's hard to not get 2hkoed by scraggy, lol). Thanks Furai :)
 
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