OU CCAT: Zoroark [See Post #663]

ginganinja said:
Thats not going to happen. Sure, Zoroark is frail, dam frail. Not going to sugar coat this, I hate its lack of bulk. However the vast majority of the community felt that we could make a team around Zoroark and that is what we are going to do. I have had massive success with a Bulky Gyara / Zoroark / Haxorus core so I know that we CAN get Zoroark to work since I have been winning using Zoroark. Personally, I think its just a matter of finding 3 more partners and then we have an excellent base for our CCAT. I don't approve of starting the CCAT over unless the vast majority of the community can convice me that building a viable team around Zoroark in the OU metagame, is impossible, in which case I will ask, why the fuck did everyone vote for it in the first place -__-
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Agreed. I'm sure that it CAN work if we're willing to give it a shot. I think a lot of the people who voted for Zoroark (I techincally did, but it was my last choice) didn't anticipate just how HARD Zorark is to use. It's not just building a team around it either; the tough part is actually USING him. It takes a lot of skill to maintain the illusion, and to make good use of it. Even if we put an ideal team together, it's still not going to win every time due to simply how difficult Zoroark is to use for the average person. If that's getting people down, well, that's what you asked for with something as ridiculously skill oriented as Zoroark.

Anyway, I hope to have some time to do some testing later this week and then I should have some more feedback for everyone. I'm pretty decent at filling gaps in teams so I should be able to put something together. For now though, I have to catch up on my Let's Plays and do my chores and stuff... and for tonight, just plain go to bed lol.
 
Srry for pc++ing

Basically I will leave this open for discussion for at least 1 more week (since several people have posted saying that they are busy ) and then re-evaluate the communities position on our Zoroark CCAT
 
IMO the sheer lack of posts in recent weeks is a good indication of the communities position towards the CCAT. People either got discouraged the moment Zoroark was chosen (me included), or they got discouraged later when they realized how ridiculously hard to use (read: crappy) Zoroark is. It's basically four or five people posting still, plus some occasionally joining in the votes. That's a strong sign of people's disinterest if you ask me.

I'm personally all for testing and making changes to the team to see what works, but I just can't bring myself to play with a team including Zoroark...
 
Well, that may be true, or it may be an indication that the majority of people here have exams around this time. I, for one, have absolutely no time to test anything for at least two weeks.

Also, I would say that Zoroark is definitely not the weak link in the team. I became somewhat disillusioned by the choice of Gyarados myself. It is inevitable that people will leave when they feel the wrong pokemon is chosen.
 
Sorry that I have not been posting, I've been pretty busy lately.

Zoroark is definitely usable in the OU metagame. I've been trying to build my own team based around him. There is a huge learning curve when first using Zoroark, but if you can trick the opponent for a few turns, you can easily pull off a sweep.
I think that if we are going to use Zoroark, we need a "partner" for it. A good example is Gengar. Gengar is weak to Ghost and Psychic, while Zoroark resists/is immune to those types. Zoroark is weak to Bug and Fighting, while Gengar resists/is immune to those types. Gengar and Zoroark can both use a set with Substitute. You can easily trick the opponent into thinking that Zoroark is Gengar, allowing you to get a Sub up and maybe even a Nasty Plot boost. You could also trick the opponent into thinking that Gengar is Zoroark, allowing you to get a Sub up.

Zoroark is very usable, but there are 2 problems that I think people have with it:
1. There's a big learning curve.
2. Even if you design the perfect team, you're not always going to win due to how difficult Zoroark can be to use.

Just my 2 cents.
 
I've been busy with projects and finals for classes all week, but luckily I crammed enough over the past few days that I can take a break today for my birthday and get some Zoroark time in as well.


I keep trying Bulky Gyarados but it's just not working out. Without max Attack and/or Life Orb, a +1 Gyarados with only 2 moves for coverage is nothing more than "adorable." Our current Gyarados is an absolute bully. Perfect 3 move coverage, all it's moves have perfect accuracy, and at +1 it does around 50% to even the sturdiest walls. Waterfall+SE or Waterfall+EQ coverage is pathetic compared to what we have right now; especially Stone Edge which has a shaky 80 accuracy. Countered by Ferrothorn or countered by Dragons. Pick your poison. Taunt is so pointless for Gyarados. Anything we could use Gyarados to set up on has Scald, Volt Switch (Forretress), or is Ferrothorn which does around 20% with even Gyro Ball and Gyarados can do absolute fuck all in return.

Our current Gyarados isn't forced out by anything but Choice Scarfers. Bulky Gyarados doesn't fix this issue, but rather adds about 5 more issues to it. Our Gyarados doesn't even care about Skarmory as +1 LO Waterfall will smash it's faceplate in and all he'll do back is Roar so we can do it again later if the Pokemon it sent us out to doesn't KO Skarm from there and Arceus help the poor bird if Waterfall Flinches.


As for Donphan, again, I like Donphan. It does it's job well enough but it's just not a HO Pokemon even with a primarily offensive set. It just seems like there are better options for an offensive Rapid Spinner. Something like Starmie, Hitmonchan, or Hitmonlee could serve that role in HO very well. But ideally we want to not have to run a Spinner as we shouldn't give our opponents any safe chances to get hazards up in the first place. Gyarados; Haxorus; and, bar Blissey or Jirach in Rain, Zoroark are fairly difficult to set up on as they all have a move SE against Steel & Rock while being able to majorly damage Ground-types. Not even Ferrothorn should ever try to set up on a +1 Gyarados or a Haxorus. Looking back, I think a lot of our problems spawned from Donphan since he draws in those Pokemon with Scald that nothing on our team but Haxorus wants to switch into. Until we hit Donphan, Zoroark was our only opening where Water-types or Fire-types could dare switch in and even then Zoroark can out-pace most and hold her own behind a Sub and I think we should set back and build out HO team around that note. Zoroark, Gyarados, & Haxorus keep Steel-types away as well so with all those assets combined, I think we could build a very successful HO team, but we need to stick to that if we do it. Basically minimize the amount of Pokemon that would even be useful for dealing with our team by having the majority of our team beat the same members of common types of OU Pokemon while not sharing weaknesses themselves yet we still want to put a heavy amount of pressure on our opponents.

I think if we want to keep that going though, something like Shaymin; Celebi; or, if we want something for pure offensive presence, Lucario; or Landorus would be necessary. I'll try to get a build of the team running on the concept going either today or when or if I get a chance this week. I'm finished with finals on Sunday, so I'll be back in full-action then.
 
I agree with Katakiri. Like he said, Gyarados, Haxorus and Zoroark work well together. I am not really into OU, so I may not be able to say much. The donphan vote kind of seemed odd to me. With the aforemention pokes, we had these attacking types - water, normal, dark, dragon, ground, fire and fighting. I dont see how donphan adds much to that. If we really wanted ice coverage, we could add something like mamoswine. The attacking types we are lacking right now are - steel, psychic, grass, electric, flying, ice, rock, bug. The bolded ones are important.
 
Lol Katakiri and I have polarising opinions. I think its down to playstyle personally but w/e. I think that Katakiri enjoys using Offensive Gyarados as a sweeper, something that breaks down walls for sweeping. Personally, I prefer to abuse the excellent bulk Gyarados has, to better utilise Intimidate, and to attempt a sweep later in the game. Taunt I agree, has a limited use, but ironically enough, you mentioned the pokemon its best for in your post (Skarmory), and while some things like Jellicent have Scald, sure, however they have 2 shots to get a burn with Scald otherwise they straight up lose (wel lthat was my experience) and sometimes Taunt was just a good, last ditch move, to prevent a wall from healing before I died, or Taunting a Ferrothorn so that I can then switch to Haxorus, and then garner a free set up oppotunity without worrying about Leech Seed, or Thunder Wave.

Personally, I prefer Bulky Gyarados when I factor in calculations such as the one below

+1 Volcarona vs Offensive Gyarados
Hurricane (66.76 - 78.85%).

On its own, thats not a KO (unless SR is up in which case its a 30% chance at being OHKOed, plus a 20% chance to get confused and a 50% chance to break through it. The issue for me, is that between Life Orb, and Double Edge, Gyarados is dying waaay to fast for my liking. Heck, Volcarona can just get a free switch in, and then fire off a Hurricane and it has a good chance at OHKOing regardless.

This, in a nutshell, is the problem I have Offensive Gyarados. We rely on Intimidate to check physical sweepers, heck, thats a "pro" you suggested for why we should have it on our team. Offensive Gyarados does not have the bulk to do this, it can block them once, maybe twice at best, but those pokemon can easily break through with little trouble. My problem is that once Gyarados uses Double Edge, its all or nothing, if we fail in our sweep, then Scizor, Landorus, Volcarona, random shit im forgetting all crush us and I don't want to dedicate 2 more teamslots for us to check all the threats that can beat us when we can fix it with a simple EV spread

I will admit, the problem with Bulky Gyarados is a drop in power compared with LO Double Edge. You (for example) can no longer OHKO Rotom W. The flip side is that, when i used the team, I didn't consider Rotom W a problem for this team. Scarf Zoroark would outspeed, Haxorus could set up if it wasn't raining / had WoW or HP Ice, it just was not a problem (and I added a Grass type just to handle it even easier). Sure, the power loss sucks, however, I don't believe that Offensive Gyarados is any better against breaking past the walls you listed, bar Rotom W. Irrc Ferrothorn is still beating, Jellicent is still burning you, and unless you OHKO Skarmory, its phasing you out. Sure in situational scenarios, the power might help in some places, I just think we need bulk more than power.

Just a final point, it was you Katakiri, that pushed the defensive power of Gyarados, as well as offensive power. You linked to your Trail of the King Killers thread where Gyarados was S tier.... and then we go and use a pure offensive spread, that dies exceptionally quickly with LO and Double Edge, and lose all the protection we would have against pokemon that we have trouble with. So basically, I am questioning why you brought up all those statistics, when we don't actually check most of the pokemon listed after all (my opinion). I am not the only person who questions Offensive Gyarados, just as you are not the only person questioning Bulky Gyarados.

tl:dr
I think that, by and large, the general feeling of this community, is that Gyarados is good on this team, and that we are mainly bitching about what set / EV spread we should run. I believe what we run on Gyarados will affect what we pick as the final three teammates, so I would enjoy some more civil discussion on this topic from all of you. Both Gyarados sets / EV spreads will be entered in the final ballot, but I would like some excellent discussion on this issue so that when we make our choice, its a choice we made knowing the pro's and cons of both options.

and sorry for the wall of text, not my intention
 
Ginganinja you certainly have a point and all of the things would be right if we weren't running a HO team.

HO teams don't need to defend against anything multiple times. If Volcarona can find some room to set-up (on Zoroark mostly), then Gyarados should be able to take one hit and scare it out. We shouldn't be giving any dangerous sweeper multiple set-up opportunities anyway, since this isn't how HO teams work. And since we are going to run a physical HO team, as we already have Gyarados and Haxorus, and Zoroark as a lure to break through physically defensive walls, Volcarona shouldn't be a problem at all.

So the point is that Volcarona shouldn't be too much of a problem on a HO team, since SR limits her switch-ins dramatically, and the opponent is very likely not to find the time to spin from all the pressure, and also because we are running a physical based HO team.

I think that LO Zoroark, LO Gyarados and Haxorus should stay as they all work very good. We should be trying to find more physically based set-up sweepers that share similar counters with what we have now, while also being able to work with Zoroark throught the use of Sub. SubSD RockGem Terrakion would fit great in this team i think, since it can beat/weaken things that trouble the 3 man core we have now (Skarmory in rain, Ferrothorn in rain and Slowbro) and also is a perfect Illusion partner for Zoroark. Imagine the opponent bringing his Slowbro to counter the poke that appears as Terrakion, as we use Sub on the switch. Now what does the opponent do? Stay in and risk getting ohkoed from Dark Pulse, leaving his team open to Terrakion, or switch out and risk the poke behind the Sub being Terrakion and getting a free SD behind a sub? Even if he predicts correctly and stays in against Terrakion we still have a very good shot of ohkoing with SD Rock Gem SE after SR + Spikes (which we should put), so it is a win-win situation for us.

Also i think that we should also put Deoxys-D as a hazard setter for the team. Entry hazards are a must for a HO team, and Deoxys-D is the man for this job. The set that we should use is the Suicide Lead with either HP Fire or Tbolt (Scizor and Starmie are both problematic so we can choose according to which of those 2 gets covered better later). We could also use it with a Modest nature and Expert Belt in case we need to revenge kill Scizor or something else later, since with max SpA evs and a Modest nature HP Fire has a 56,25% chance to ohko CBZor from full life, and a 62,5% chance to ohko Tentacruel with Psycho Boost, while Tbolt does 80% min to offensive Starmie which means, that if he goes for the 2hko he dies with us after 2 LO rounds.

tl;dr

Keep DD LO Gyara, Sub Zoro, and DD Haxorus and put in the team SubSD Terrakion for sure, while also Suicide Deoxys-D would be a good option for the 5th slot...
 
My position wasn't to say to start it over and completely nominate a new focus Pokemon. I meant, start the process over from everything after the point where Zoroark was nominated, even the possibility of deciding what type of team to build around him. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I kind of was in a hurry when I typed that last post.

But it seems a decent amount of people either regret the decision for the type of team chosen, or regret the pokes chosen from the beginning (and when building a team, picking the wrong poke for it that early can completely disrupt the rest of it), or hell, just regret Zoroark's set and such.

After a while, I'd consider taking a poll to see what exactly people want to be done, whether to keep trudging forward, just replace a poke or two, or go as far back as to completely retool Zoroark itself and restart the team building process over. While it will definitely feel as if a LOT of time and effort was wasted, it'd certainly be less complicated in the end if changes need to happen.
 
Aw fuck, I promised I'd be more active in this CCAT, and look what I do. I go inactive while 4 teammates get chosen. Well I promise to actually try and help for the rest of the process.

So I haven't tested the team out or anything, I'll probably do a lot of playtesting this weekend, and come back next week with what I found. Just at a glance, I 100% agree that Donphan and Salamence need to go. I feel like we had a good offensive core going with Dos/Hax/Zoro and that we lost it. HO isn't my cup of tea, and my experience with it is somewhat limited, so I can't really theorymon up some good new teammates off the top of my head. When I come back in a few days, I won't be so useless.
 
HO teams don't need to defend against anything multiple times. If Volcarona can find some room to set-up (on Zoroark mostly), then Gyarados should be able to take one hit and scare it out.
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I know how this works, and I know the principal of how it works. I am argueing, that Gyarados utterly fails to check Volcarona, if, SR is up / its used Double Edge / Its attacked 3 times with LO / dropped down to 65% / some combination of the above which is easy to accomplish. I am arguing that Volcarona is just going to set up and sweep since we have nothing to stop it. I also want to nitpick this line right here

We shouldn't be giving any dangerous sweeper multiple set-up opportunities anyway, since this isn't how HO teams work.
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Deoxys-D is the man for this job. The set that we should use is the Suicide Lead with either HP Fire or Tbolt
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Deoxys D could be a good pokemon if we go down that route however, never, in a million years would I pick that exact set. For reference, the set you are suggesting is

Deoxys D @ Fire Gem
48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Timid
-Stealth Rock
-Spikes
-HP Fire
-Psycho Boost

The problem with the above set, is that its not going to work for this team. Assuming we take your suggestions, we get utterly wrecked by Dragonite, which sets up a Dragon Dance on Deoxys D as we are forced out without setting up hazards, and then whatever we send in has to handle a +1 +1 Dragonite with Multi Scale intact. Heck, I could send in Volcarona on Deoxys D and either Bug Buzz a possible Gyarados switch, or just Quiver Dance if I predict the Stealth Rock. Obviously, their is a mathmatical chance that you can still check it but I am just issueing the point that between Zoroark and that Deoxys D set, we open ourselves up to a lot of offensive sets, which, as you just stated, is not the point of HO. I also dislike Deoxys D as a whole on the team (I prefer Katakiri's style of HO more that using Deoxys D) since I feel that a common arguement can be made that Zoroark is useless when someone else could work better. Ideally, id like to make a team where Zoroark is actually important, and I think that just running Deoxys D + 5 sweepers doesn't really showcase Zoroark off, especially when you factor in that most HO teams do just fine at breaking down physical walls like Slowbro just fine without Zoroark.

Maybe this idea is not feasible, idk, but I would really like to avoid Deoxys D + 5 sweepers unless there is no other option (its also dull, unimaginative, and I would consider the CCAT a failure if we ended up with a "standard" team that really took no real thought into making). Pocket and I ideally want the CCAT to inspire us to think outside the box, try new things, and ending up with (say) a Drag Mag team, or a team with Deoxys D + forgotten wonder sweeper + 4 other pokemon do not really reflect creative teambuilding.

Anyway, on a brighter note, thanks to everyone for starting posting again, clearly, exams are currently an issue so I am happy keeping this stage open for a while yet but again, a big thank you to all who are responding, its really great!
 
i wonder, how does specs zoro fare? come in, blast whatever switches into you then switch out before you take a hit, a hit and run type mon which is surely how zoro should be played as? would be interested.
 
@ Ginga: Again, why I'd prefer to use LO Azelf or some other Azelf set like Normal Gem Explosion. Unlike Deoxys almost no offensive threat can set up on it. The only problem is that depending on the coverage and whether we used Taunt, stuff like Heatran and Tyranitar could potentially set up SR, but neither of those like our current teammates, less so if we do go with Terrakion / Lucario for the next member (speaking of which I really like Lucario, it checks a lot of the frail special threats we don't like with ESpeed after some residual damage).
 
After testing the current set out +expert belt Jirachi (more a placeholder than anything, just wanted to get a feel for the team), I feel I can contribute a bit more to this discussion now. I'll start of general then get into some specific (but untested as of now) suggestions.

We've been building our High Offense team all wrong. High Offense is not about having Pokemon that can beat individual threats, and it's definitely not about defensive synergy. What it is about is pressure, pressure to the point where taking out a Pokemon on our side doesn't feel like a victory for them since another just comes up and takes its place. In order to do that, a team needs two things. One, it needs Pokemon that can weaken eachothers checks for eachother. We have that covered. The other thing a HO team needs is a revenge killing core, as that is what allows HO teams to keep the pressure on even against other offensive teams. Without that aspect, as soon as the opponent gains the momentum it's game over for us because we have no way to steal it back. Furthermore, there needs to be REDUNDANT revenge killing coverage, because there are going to be times when you CAN'T preserve a check you need for later. This is what we're missing in our team, and I have an idea to fix it.

For one, when I say "revenge killing core" you might be thinking Scarfers immediately, but I think we should avoid scarf users at all costs if we can. Scarf users invite the opponent to set up after they've taken something down, handing offensive momentum right back to our opponents. While this is OK on more balanced teams that can handle giving the opponent a turn to set up, it isn't OK for our HO team. Instead, I suggest we use other revenge killing methods, such as naturally high base speed, priority moves and sturdy / sashed Pokemon, which do not become set up bait once their job is done since they can switch moves.

As for specific suggestions for our team, I think most of us are in agreement that our Haxorus, Gyarados and Zoroark core are here to stay and do their job quite nicely. I agree, and I also like that Gyarados can function somewhat as a revenge killer due to Intimidate as well. We need a lot more than this though if we want to avoid being swept by faster opponents though, and a single Pokemon to try and cover all the extra threats against us isn't going to cut it. As such, I have a few suggestions.

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Alakazam @ Focus Sash Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Rock]

Alakazam is exactly the revenge killer we need. Alakazam is perfect it that it can revenge kill almost any offensive Pokemon... once a game. Thankfully, due to the redundancies I plan on having in our team and the fact we'll be keeping the opponent from setting up much anyway, once will be all we need, and Alakazam covers a broader range of threats than anything else we could use while still maintaining massive offensive pressure by virtue of its massive Special attack stat and coverage alone. There aren't a lot of things that can set up on Alakazam, so that makes it perfect for us. Of course, we'll have to be conservative as to when we use Alakazam, who will basically be out get-out-of-jail-free card. Alakazam should only be used when our other options are exhausted, but when they are (and they will be exhausted from time to time), it'll be there to save our sorry asses.

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Azelf @ Life Orb Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Psychic
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt
- Stealth Rock


Azelf is here simply because it's one of the few offensive stealth rock users that could feasibly fit on our team. It serves a dual purpose; get rocks up when we need them, and revenge threats without a speed boost when we don't. Exactly what moves we want to use can be switched around of course, but I chose the moves I did to best work with Alakazam, allowing us to easily check unboosted Gyarados, non-rock polish Terrakion, Virizon, Cloyster before shell smash and a few other choice threats. It's not likely to become set up fodder either, thanks to great power and coverage.


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Scizor @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower

Yessir, this is another Scizor set to be suggested, but one different than before. Rather than the bog standard Choice Band set, which is easily set up upon when locked into Bullet Punch, I've opted to go for and offensive SD set that still serves the revenge killing purpose we need, well while being far less likely to get our asses set up on and killed. Truthfully, this does leave Volcarona as a major threat, but Alakazam can handle that as long we keep Hidden power Rock on it. But this set doesn't just revenge kill, oh no, it does TRIPLE duty. It functions as yet another Zoroark illusion partner when sand is not present, taking the same hazard damage (well, barring toxic spikes but those aren't exactly common) and actually lures in things Zoroark can hurt, unlike some other options we've had on our team. And because of Sword Dance, the opponent pays if they assume it's Zoroark and switch to blissey or something. For the final duty, U-turn gives us that cruicial ability to get our frailer teammembers in so they can do their job. Haxorus particularly enjoys this capability, as it means he doesn't have to risk status or major damage switching in.

Again, I'd like to emphasize I haven't tested these suggestions just yet and they are subject to change. However, I do believe they represent the idea I'm trying to get across with regards to how we should build our team.

EDIT: After testing I've found these teammates to work pretty well, especially Scizor and Alakazam (Azelf gets its job done but feels like a wasted teamslot). Bug Bite has been substituted in for U-Turn on Scizor, as it fits the "punish the opponent for mispredicting" theme much better and I usually find U-turn doing no more than losing me my boosts when I could have kept on sweeping. I've replaced Thunderbolt with Explosion for now in the hopes of getting more out of Azelf, but I might change it again in the future is it continues to dissapoint. I do miss having Rapid Spin a little bit, but at the same time usually taking the time to spin would be counterproductive anyway.
 
@Jimera

Your ideas sound very good, but you should make Scizor Jolly, to be able to outspeed and ohko SubCharge Magnezone and standard Celebi.
 
alexwolf said:
@Jimera

Your ideas sound very good, but you should make Scizor Jolly, to be able to outspeed and ohko SubCharge Magnezone and standard Celebi.
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Also beats some slower forms of Heatran too, but the trade off is that Bullet Punch isn't as powerful as I'd like it to be for unboosted opponents. Scizor's attack is high enough that the power loss from switching away from Adamant is quite significant. Also, it makes breaking through some walls a little harder. Really, deciding whether to run Jolly or Adamant is hard to pick. Also, it's worth noting that some Celebi users will run enough speed to outrun even Jolly Scizor (I know I did and was consistently glad for it).

Still I might give it a shot. Maybe the power loss isn't enough to worry about, but I still feel like it's really a toss up more than anything.

In other news, the changes I made appear to be working pretty well, Azelf is doing better since I can prevent set up from leads that aren't Tyranitar or Heatran with Explosion, making Stealth Rock a lot less common on my side of the field than it used to be. Still feel like I could be doing better honestly though. No complaints about the others members though; I've swept with everyone, including Zoroark. Scizor is an invaluable member of the team and forms a great illusion core with Haxorus against teams without Sand (which is most of them btw, despite everyone's perception), making sweeping with both Haxorus and Scizor a lot easier. Alakazam is an invaluable check to many opposing sweepers and a fair sweeper in and of itself even without any boosting items and a timid nature.

I'd also like to note that I use Double Dance Haxorus, not substitute, and am very glad I do. I also run Lum Berry instead of Life orb, and am very glad I do as I find MANY more opportunities to set up with it. It's not like running Life Orb somehow facilitates illusion anyway; the opponent doesn't know you're item until you attack and by that point it's pretty clear you're Haxorus unless you're using SD, which wouldn't reveal Life Orb anyway. I don't find myself missing the power very often and find the lack of recoil very useful, since Haxorus often finds itself at low HP after set up or tanking priority hits, and you do NOT want recoil in either situation. (Oh, just want to say; anyone who says Haxorus is super-vulnerable to Prioirty needs to see this thing tank a CB Scizor Bullet Punch and get back to me).

As for Zoroark itself, I can't honestly say I'd rather use it over a more versatile wallbreaker such as CB Terrakion, but it gets the job done well enough. As for Substitute vs. NP vs. Sucker Punch... I honestly don't know. I find myself in situations where all three are useful around the same number of times. I do wonder sometimes if Sucker Punch might not be the best option because of the potential to stop a sweep in an emergency, but Substitute really does go a long way towards ensuring Zoroark actually does some damage. Getting a free sub is very easy, and once it's up Zoroark can usually weaken or KO two Pokemon before going down, one more than it would be able to do to normally. NP I'm iffy on, as usually when you get opportunities for Zoroark to sweep it's going to be able to do it boost or not, and such opportunities come quite rarely. There are rare occasions where I wish I had more damage output, but they're few and far between. I can't help but to feel I enjoy the saftey net of Substitue or Sucker Punch much more.
 
Haven't gotten to play much due to finals but I might as well check-in. (It's the last day of finals thankfully)

I'm currently working on that 'block popular things in OU' plan I mentioned earlier and I decided to focus on making Heatran, Water-types, and Hazard users a non-issue. While, I've been trying some different things, I've only found one I really like. This would be replacing Donphan's slot:
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Venusaur (M) @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 136 Atk / 120 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Power Whip
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sludge Bomb / Sleep Powder

Overgrow Venusaur, definitely something you won't expect to see here. It's Overgrow for the sole fact that Power Whip is illegal with Chlorophyll. We lose that advantage against Sun teams, but we gain a Base 120 STAB attack and the huge boost that Overgrow provides in Venusaur's critical moments, which will be much more useful overall due to Sun teams only making up 7.9% of OU usage, so 92.1% of the time, we'd get nothing for it.

As for the EVs & Moves, this is a Mixed Set that aims to abuse one thing: It can it a LOT of things Super Effectively. On any given team, Venusaur's coverage hits 2 or 3 Pokemon Super Effectively, which helps keep a lot of Pokemon at bay. It's running Max Speed, ensuring that Heatran has no chance against it unless it's Scarfed, giving us a Grass-type that Heatran can't touch while keeping up that shared resistance to Water that Gyarados & Haxorus have. HP Fire nails Scizor, Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn; add that to EQ & Power Whip smashing Heatran, Rotom-W, Donphan, & Tyranitar respectively and our opponents are extremely hard-pressed to get hazards up or get Volt-Turn going.

The biggest issue with Venusaur is that it's pretty open to Dragons. All it can do is Sludge Bomb or Sleep Powder, but Dragons are taken care of easily enough by a Steel-type and Scarf Zoroark, which I am currently all for right now. Sludge Bomb is mainly there for Celebi, who otherwise doesn't mind Venusaur at all, especially in Rain while due to Natural Cure, Sleep Power is a temporary fix at best.

Here's a sample of how Venusaur plays, constantly abusing that Super Effect coverage I mentioned and Power Whip's extra strength over the common Seed Bomb all the while bluffing it's set until I see an opening to smack something on the other side of the spectrum like I did to Blissey here.
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-one-vs-Katakiri--2012-06-03

This second one pits Venusaur against Heatran, Virizion, and Scrafty in a much less one-sided battle; further showing what that coverage and Power Whip's brutality can achieve.
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Katakiri-vs-Monahee--2012-06-03

Don't mind Azelf too much, I'm just trying it out. It leaves me open to Volcarona, but it's I'm still trying things. I do really like Scarf Scizor though. But I think Venusaur may end up being my nomination if he keeps holding up.
 
@Katakiri I like your Venusaur set, and I think it's really creative, but I'm not sure it's the best for our team. I like it's wall breaking abilities, but, as Jimera0 has said, we need more revenge killing as opposed to wall breaking. Both of the replays you provided were good examples of Venusaur against defensive teams, but what about offensive ones? And like you said, Volcarona shits on it.

I personally prefer Jimera0's changes, although I would rather use Mamoswine over Azelf, since in addition to SR it gets priority, and is more useful offensively in general than Azelf.
 
DrunkDemon said:
@Katakiri I like your Venusaur set, and I think it's really creative, but I'm not sure it's the best for our team. I like it's wall breaking abilities, but, as Jimera0 has said, we need more revenge killing as opposed to wall breaking. Both of the replays you provided were good examples of Venusaur against defensive teams, but what about offensive ones? And like you said, Volcarona shits on it.

I personally prefer Jimera0's changes, although I would rather use Mamoswine over Azelf, since in addition to SR it gets priority, and is more useful offensively in general than Azelf.
Click to expand...

I've actually started considering Mamoswine myself. The FEAR set seems much more effective at eliminating an opponent once its job is done than Azelf is (explosion is hampered primarily but the ubiquity of steel types and Tyranitar as leads), and I've found that I've never used Azelf for its revenge killing capabilities anyway (Alakazam functions much better in that role, and more than anything I've found it's BOOSTING sweepers I need to check, and we need priority for that). Mamoswine, with or without it's FEAR set, just seems to fulfill our needs better. I'll probably give it a try later today.

Katakiri's been taking a different approach towards the team than I have, so I dunno maybe his changes work. I still stand by what I said earlier though.

Oh, and one thing that's become a disturbing trend for me is that I end up in situtations where both of us have a one Pokemon remaining and then I lose VERY often. Like most games I don't outright win end up like that. I'm wondering if that's my playing (I'll admit it, I'm good at theorymonning but not the best at execution) or if it's an inherent flaw of the team I'm using. If someone else could give the team a test I'd be greatful, here's the importable for the current team I'm using

Zoroark (M) @ Life Orb Trait: Illusion
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Flamethrower
- Substitute
Haxorus (F) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Rivalry
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Dance
Gyarados (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 8 Def / 248 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
Scizor (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Bug Bite
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
Alakazam (F) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Rock]
Azelf @ Light Clay
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Explosion
- Stealth Rock


Note that the dual screens are a recent addition in desperation to find SOME way to keep that damn scenario I mentioned from happening so often. I've only actually had the opportunity to use it once so it might've changed. Before that I was using a naive nature, maxed special attack instead of HP, Psychic, Flamethrower, SR and explosion as my moves if you want to try that out instead.
 
Just posting that I also, don't really think we need a significant wallbreaker on the team as yet. Considering that Venusaur can only 3KO BLissey with Power Whip I could argue that there are better wall breakers out there regardless. Perhapes if you could show logs against better players Katakiri (since in general I was not impressed with how your opponents played) I could be better convinced about Venusaur.
 
Having used Jimera0's team I can say that Scizor has been doing well every match. I used Azelf with SR, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt and Psychic. Alakazam has not done much at all except help win matches in rare occasions. You might want to consider using a jolly nature on Scizor with whom I have KOed many Heatrans and Magnezones. The team looks great. I dont play OU much but I have beaten some people with a very high ranking. This proves how effective the team is. So, I would like to say that adding that Scizor to the team would be the best course of action now. @Jimera0 maybe you should use Mamoswine over Alakazam?
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-tyranitank43-vs-TestAnik--2012-06-05-private1679790107
My net was disconnected. I would have won there. BTW you may think the match sucked but I have had matches against better players but I dont remember their names so I cant find the log.
 
Before we go deciding on members outside the Zoro/Gyara/Hax core, shouldn't we come to an actual agreement on what Zoroark set we're using? There's been discussion about Scarf, which wasn't on the original ballot, so if it's something we're seriously considering, we probably ought to get on the same page, since they gel better with slightly different teammates. For that matter, we could also reach a consensus on Gyarados.

Personally, I like Sub Zoro and Katakiri's Gyarados right now mostly because they fit hyper offense better. Gyarados turns a lot of its own counters on their heads with that set, and generally weakens everything it encounters but can't take out significantly. Weakens things for Haxorus and such to come in and have a much easier time getting KOs. The surprise factor definitely helps it somewhat, but it's not totally reliant on it, which is nice. My preference for Sub Zoro is based mostly on that I plainly do better with it, and find it easier to manipulate switches to get Subs up and get surprise KOs with room to get powerful hits in after it's done its job rather than rely entirely on predicting the right switch-in to KO it and become setup fodder.

Outside the main three, Scizor worked well because it's Scizor, but I feel like one of Alakazam and Azelf is replaceable. I tried out those, but I haven't gotten around to any of the others, and I'm not all that great at replacing things to plug up holes, especially not on hyper offense teams, which I haven't really used outside this team and its variants. But yeah, main point: finalize Zoro and/or Gyara set(s) mayhaps?
 
BowlArt64 said:
Before we go deciding on members outside the Zoro/Gyara/Hax core, shouldn't we come to an actual agreement on what Zoroark set we're using? There's been discussion about Scarf, which wasn't on the original ballot, so if it's something we're seriously considering, we probably ought to get on the same page, since they gel better with slightly different teammates. For that matter, we could also reach a consensus on Gyarados.
Click to expand...

Scarfed Zoroark is way to easy too set up on, and can basically lose you the game if your mispredict. For example, in a game I played with Jimera0's team a little while ago, I sent out Zoroark disguised as Haxorus. My opponent switched to Latios as I subbed, and I was able to kill it with Dark Pulse. If I was using a Scarfed Zoroark, I might have predicted a switch to Ferrothorn and used Flamethrower, in which case I would have completely lost all momentum. As for Gyarados, I would probably keep the same EV spread, and change it's ability to Intimidate. Since this is a Hyper Offense team, survivability doesn't really matter most of the time, but what I like about Intimidate is that it can give Gyarados opportunities to set up on physical attackers that it otherwise wouldn't have. Moxie is a good sweeping ability, but we don't need to be sweeping half the team with it- our other members can do that after Gyarados or another poke punches a hole. Basically, more sweeping opportunities > longer sweep imo.

So, I've been testing out Jimera0's changes, and everything except Azelf has done great so far. Obviously Scizor was good, and it fit the team well, so I don't have a whole lot to say about it. I think what surprised me most was how effective Alakazam was not only as a revenge killer, but as a potential sweeper. I had a replay where I 5-0'd someone with it, but I forgot to save it unfortunately. Alakazam is a damn solid poke for this team, and has saved my ass several times.

In contrast, I've found Azelf to be pretty awful. It got Stealth Rocks up reliably enough, but I couldn't help but feel like I was playing with 5 team members. I haven't encountered a situation yet where I would have rather had Explosion or Dual Screens over something else. I've also been having the issue Jimera0 described where I to a 1v1 outcome if I didn't win outright, which I suspect is due to the team spot Azelf takes up. One other small thing I've noticed is a bit of a Quagsire weakness since Haxorus lacks Mold Breaker. It can be taken out, but Curse sets especially are a pain to deal with.

In general, I think the changes are a big improvement, but it still needs fine-tuning. I'm going to start testing Mamoswine over Azelf later, so I'll update when I have some info on it.
 
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