BW2 and U(U)

Renelia

As everyone knows, BW2 was released in Japan today. It brings a whole bunch of new potential in move tutors, new level-up moves and new DW abilities coupled with a handful of TM changes. All of these changes will affect UU in one way or another.

Some of the ground-breaking changes that BW2 brought to this tier. I'll list some of them:

* Sheer Force Nidoking just got even more interesting. A physical Sheer Force set is a good alternative to a special set and Nidoqueen with Sheer Force is now compatible with Stealth Rock.

* Moxie Honchkrow and Superpower is now legal to use. Steel-types can no longer wall it as easily as it used to.

* Arcanine gains Outrage. As if it's not already dangerous enough, it gains one new toy for BW2.

* Mew gained every new move from the move tutor.

* A possible newcomer to UU, Feraligatr, when it gets its DW ability released, can have Ice Punch and Superpower legally with Sheer Force.

* A former UU mainstay, Golurk, gained a whole plethora of punches and it's the only Ghost-type that can set up Stealth Rock.

Those are just some of the changes that will affect UU in many ways in time for BW2.
 
I'll copy what I put in the Durant Discussion Thread:


ThePhalanx said:
So... unless i'm reading the list wrong, Durant now gets Superpower from the BW2 move tutors.

252 +1 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs 252 HP/252 Def Registeel (+Def) : 100% - 117,58% (Guaranteed OHKO)

There goes the usual counter, now all you can do is check it. Anyone see Durant rising highly in usage, once people start to realize this? All you can do now is revenge kill it, not much can switch in without taking massive damage/being 2HKO'd with the appropriate move. Unfortunately its bad HP and SpD will probably mean it'll stay in UU, what with Scarf Chandelure/Darmanitan around, and predicting wrong will allow faster pokes to come in on a Hone Claws or a move they resist, and scare it out.
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I think a mixed Nidoking might be devastating to UU, especially if Chansey drops and Fighting-type coverage becomes that much more important. However, I'm not sure to what extent Nidoking can work mixed (as he won't want to go entirely Physical thanks to the quality of Physical walls/his Special coverage is phenomenal) since it'll have to spread its offenses pretty thin. Maybe Superpower+3 special attacks with a focus on SpA.

Superpower on Honch will be scary good. Honch will be making a push towards top 20 in UU with this new move. LO+3 attacks and Roost will be a good set in my opinion, though this does saddle Honchkrow with four moveslot syndrome.

Outrage on Arcanine will be useless. Arcanine has great coverage as it is, usually runs a LO set anyway, so locking yourself into a unSTABbed move that makes him easily revengable is not a good idea.

Mew is already really good, and I'm not sure what these new moves will do for it.

Feraligatr will be very good with Sheer Force Life Orb. I find the best way to beat a Gatr is to stall out its Life Orb while getting in one solid hit, so no recoil PLUS another 30% power makes him insane. Watch out for the gator.

Golurk's problem is Speed, not movepool. I don't see him getting much more usage. Maybe he slips back into UU with 3.6% usage or something.
 
Very excited for BW2 MoxieKrow. Agreed on 4 moveslot syndrome though. Brave Bird, Sucker Punch, and Superpower make for powerful and effective coverage, but then you must choose between increasing survivability with Roost, providing Sp.Att and additional coverage with Heat Wave, or nailing weakened Pokemon as they switch for a free boost with Pursuit. All are viable options. I expect Honchkrow usage to go up a lot, and now that he can answer to Steels he may even see more action in OU.
 
Honchkrow, Durant, Golurk, Gator, Nidoqueen, Cofagrigus, Chandelure(before Shadow Tag ofc), Slowbro, Cobalion, Krookodile are definitely gonna be interesting. Durant is pretty much unwallable now, MoxieKrow just got a few new weapons, Golurk with rocks and elemental punchs is amazing and because of it Hitmontops usage is probably gonna decrease, Gator will be fun, Nidoqueen can be powerful and have rocks at the same time, so that will be cool too, Cofagrigus can run sleep talk and pain split, so yeah, pretty sure it has it's place in UU now, Chandelure and Slowbro with regenerator can now trick and Rocks on Cobalion and Krook. Also, we can say goodbye to Heatwave Lightninrod Zapdos when it gets released, same with Chandelure. Probably missed something, but a lot of things will change, that's for sure. Sand would be even more common but it's banned now, so that's fine.
 
BW2 was surprisingly skimpy on UU changes. We still don't have Meloetta, and the new moves do nothing at all for Nidoking (his physical options are weak and Earthquake doesn't use Sheer Force). Sad day for me.

But I do see some real potential in Durant. I was always hesitant to use him because of how easily Empoleon, Registeel, and Cobalion ruin his day. Being a Cobalion check without being defensive or having a Choice Scarf is actually something to brag about. I think CB will increase in viability, but Hone Claws will have a bit of 4mss, being walled by something no matter which option he chooses. He's still competing with Heracross in the Bug-type powerhouse category too, so his effectiveness will more than likely hinge on his ability to sweep.
 
Not earthshaking but Bisharp got Low Kick so it'll have an option to deal higher Fighting-type damage to heavy opponents.
 
Why is the whole world ignoring one of the biggest changes in UU?!? Stoutland got Superpower.

Some common Stoutland counters from before were Cobalion, Rhyperior, Bisharp, Empoleon. Unlike pokemon who barely miss a 2HKO (e.g. Suicune or Hitmontop), these counters could repeatedly switch into Stoutland. And unlike pokemon such as Gligar, Hippopotas, or Sableye, all of these counters had significant offensive presence. They could each threaten a counter-sweep.

Now, with Superpower, Stoutland eliminates these counters:

252Atk Choice Band Stoutland (+Atk) Superpower vs 4HP/0Def Cobalion (Neutral): 88% - 104% (288 - 340 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 30% chance to OHKO.
252Atk Choice Band Stoutland (+Atk) Superpower vs 208HP/0Def Solid Rock Rhyperior (Neutral): 50% - 59% (214 - 253 HP). Chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rocks.
252Atk Choice Band Stoutland (+Atk) Superpower vs 160HP/0Def Bisharp (Neutral): 231% - 272% (720 - 848 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
252Atk Choice Band Stoutland (+Atk) Superpower vs 252HP/0Def Empoleon (Neutral): 106% - 126% (398 - 470 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

I think sand will rise significantly in usage, leading to its unpopularity. This might be the last straw to get rid of sand in UU.
 
Stoutland may actually find a place in OU with superpower (and a much needed boost to sand teams after all the awesome new things rain has)
 
mrb said:
Why is the whole world ignoring one of the biggest changes in UU?!? Stoutland got Superpower.

Some common Stoutland counters from before were Cobalion, Rhyperior, Bisharp, Empoleon. Unlike pokemon who barely miss a 2HKO (e.g. Suicune or Hitmontop), these counters could repeatedly switch into Stoutland. And unlike pokemon such as Gligar, Hippopotas, or Sableye, all of these counters had significant offensive presence. They could each threaten a counter-sweep.

Now, with Superpower, Stoutland eliminates these counters:

252Atk Choice Band Stoutland (+Atk) Superpower vs 4HP/0Def Cobalion (Neutral): 88% - 104% (288 - 340 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 30% chance to OHKO.
252Atk Choice Band Stoutland (+Atk) Superpower vs 208HP/0Def Solid Rock Rhyperior (Neutral): 50% - 59% (214 - 253 HP). Chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rocks.
252Atk Choice Band Stoutland (+Atk) Superpower vs 160HP/0Def Bisharp (Neutral): 231% - 272% (720 - 848 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
252Atk Choice Band Stoutland (+Atk) Superpower vs 252HP/0Def Empoleon (Neutral): 106% - 126% (398 - 470 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

I think sand will rise significantly in usage, leading to its unpopularity. This might be the last straw to get rid of sand in UU.
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You may want to check the megathread.....
 
Heysup said:
You may want to check the megathread.....
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Wow, I leave for a week and sand gets banned. Well, I spent 5 minutes on that post for nothing. Feel free to make fun and continue talking about Durant.

Going back to the topic, I think that a physical LO Nidoking with Hone Claws could be very threatening after set up. However, it's probably fairly underwhelming because it can be revenged very easily.

As far as Durant, I don't think Hone Claws is the way to go. Hustle is a great ability because it gives an attack raise without any set up. I would choose to run Choice sets if I was ballsy, but a Wide Lens set of X-Scissor/Iron Head/Superpower/(Crunch/Substitute) would take better advantage of Hustle's immediate power.

With the addition of Stealth Rocks, a tanking Nidoqueen set with SR can prove to be interesting (although I've never really liked Nidoqueen). Although Cobalion and Bisharp get it, I don't think SR fits on any of their sets due to their offensive nature. Golurk is not a bad rocks setter; it certainly has the bulk.

I imagine a boom in LO Zapdos too. With a Lightningrod boost, only dedicated special walls will be able to switch into it. In a similar vein, I think that manual rain will become more popular, using threats like LO Zapdos and Specs/LO Kingdra who weren't able to shine as much when sand was present.
 
Feraligatr will outdo Nidoking for a physical SF set. His attack's higher, his STAB gets the SF boost, and his coverage has higher BP too. A set with Swords Dance/Waterfall/Ice Punch/Crunch just screams wallbreaker, and I can't think of any wall that could stop that. Gligar gets Ice'd, Rhyperior gets slammed by Waterfall, Hippowdon will take a very hard smack from Waterfall when he drops into UU...

If he gets Dragon Dance as a DW move... My God, the destruction will be so tasty! ^_^
 
Superpower on Durant does let it destroy registeel, cobalion and empoleon, but it wouldn't be able to get rid of fire types like victini and chandelure who either resist or are immune to superpower. Also after one Superpower, Durant will become set-up fodder for pokemon like calm mind suicune, swords dance feraligatr and (pray you never have to face this) swords dance heracross who will then rip huge holes in the opponents team.

I am really looking forward to MoxieHonchkrow with Superpower though. It will finally be able to get past Bisharp, a Pokemon that ruined its day, and Moxie will nullify the Attack drop that comes with Superpower.
 
I know that most of those pokemon look good on paper, but I don't really see any of them taking the meta by storm. The only really impactful differences I see so far is Trick and Stealth Rocks being given to a few powerful pokemon, as well as Amoonguss finally becoming viable. I have always wanted something that was able to counter both Fighting and Water types, and Regenerator finally makes Amoonguss a UU-caliber pokemon who can fill that niche. But hat I am really exited about are DW abilities that will shake up the metagame, such as Moxie Heraboss, Lightningrod Zapdos, and Volt Absorb Raikou.
 
BW2 isn't likely to affect UU until a few months from now, when the OU tiers change in accordance to the new metagame. I could see a few pokemon dropping (like the original Tornadus). The new move tutors are nice (and i'm especially looking forward to new DW abilities like Sheer force Feraligatr) but aside from that we'll have to wait and see.

Time will tell.
 
Huh. I could've sworn Arcanine already had Outrage. Oh well, it's not like Outrage is useful anyway. All it gives is perfect (crappy) neutral coverage.
 
Arcanine already had Outrage via Gen4 tutor.

What I'm interested in is Stealth Rock Druddigon. It has great bulk, good defensive (and offensive) typing and 120 base attack with Stab Outrage, come on how cool is that? A lot of cool mons have got Stealth Rock with the tutor so we have more options now, something especially cool considering Sand is banned and Bronzong/Rhyperior won't be 100% necessary now.
 
R7Rules said:
Superpower on Durant does let it destroy registeel, cobalion and empoleon, but it wouldn't be able to get rid of fire types like victini and chandelure who either resist or are immune to superpower. Also after one Superpower, Durant will become set-up fodder for pokemon like calm mind suicune, swords dance feraligatr and (pray you never have to face this) swords dance heracross who will then rip huge holes in the opponents team.

I am really looking forward to MoxieHonchkrow with Superpower though. It will finally be able to get past Bisharp, a Pokemon that ruined its day, and Moxie will nullify the Attack drop that comes with Superpower.
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being locked into it sucks but it really helps durant in some ways, its hard to hone claw up to power through those steels.
 
As PK says, the real change for UU will be when all the OU has-beens drop. I'm guessing not just one or two, but a mass exodus of Pokemon that can't keep up in OU.

lol @ stoutland being better in OU than UU now.

Also fuck troll freak and their fucking Zap Cannon bullshit... (that said, Hurricane / Thunder / Heat Wave Zapdos would have undoubtedly been OU, so I guess we should actually be thankful in UU).
 
PsYch071c said:
such as Moxie Heraboss, Lightningrod Zapdos, and Volt Absorb Raikou.
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Anyone else see Krookodile going to RU ;)

and with those DW ability raikou would be one of the best counters to zapdos

Does anyone think the new Landorus form will be in UU? It has a way higher attack but that 91 base speed is just too much of a let down from his 101. Even his his regular form still gains the advantage thanks to sand force. So does anyone see this pokemon dropping to UU or would it still recieve enough usage to be OU material?
 
Possibly but maybe not, how would the uu invoronment cope it's only purpose will be to utilise a bulky stealth rock set and a stab earthquake riding off a 145 attack stat is still scary.

As for lightning rod zapdos it could end up in ou because the huge buff on rain teams and want protection from electric attacks or as a counter to thundrus if it winds up in ou or it's new form. But would rely hp ice for a move to hit for super effective.
 
or in uu if trick room is up slowbro can easily flamethrower it.

infernape i feel could move down in what looks like its going to be a rain dominated ou, because it's to frail to sweep properly.
 
lol infernape ? trick room slowbro ?

the only counter that comes to my mind is gligar , and it still can be beaten with stone edge , with sand gone it won't be that common anyway .

I see a durant dominant tier .. hopefully i love that ant swag .
 
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