Breloom

Yes both amoonguss and skarmory are fine at countering breloom to a certain extent.

The only reason jolly breloom was preferred in DW was because of other brelooms really. A lot of th time that one last Mach punch to kill the opposing breloom determined the game.
 
Lavos Spawn said:
This is your fault.
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heck yeah it's my fault XD

I merely wanted to start some discussion about it. Breloom with technician is considered extremely dangerous by many. An unboosted bullet seed/mach punch combination punches holes in many pokes making it nothing to scoff at.
 
DFang said:
Happy to see technician breloom, but aren't those in-game encounters only male?

bulletseed isan egg move and spore is a pre-evo only move so all you are really left with is mach punch unless it has special moves already.
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Was this post ignored because its information was incorrect? Or because people are blissfully ignoring the fact that the only TechniLoom we'll have access to for awhile will blow?
 
Fizz said:
Was this post ignored because its information was incorrect? Or because people are blissfully ignoring the fact that the only TechniLoom we'll have access to for awhile will blow?
Click to expand...

copied from the general discussion thread

97203002.png
 
Fizz said:
Was this post ignored because its information was incorrect? Or because people are blissfully ignoring the fact that the only TechniLoom we'll have access to for awhile will blow?
Click to expand...

We've seen hard evidence of female Regenerator Foongus' so I see no reason to believe that all Hidden Hollow pokes are male only.

Edit: Ninjasked
 
Katakiri said:
Or, you run Espeon. Anything that's faster & resists Mach Punch can take care of Breloom as long as they have the power to OHKO it. That's why Zapdos & Salamence run HP Flying in DW because they absolutely laugh at Breloom with it even in Rain.
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HP Flying Salamence hasn't been a thing since ADV. If Mixmence needs to kill Breloom in rain it will just Draco Meteor. Hell, Naive LO Fire Blast OHKOes in rain with Spikes, which means Rash is a guaranteed OHKO. Zapdos is iffy in terms of HP Flying too considering LO HP Ice still OHKOes Breloom, so the only set that might even consider running HP Flying is maybe SubRoost, and that would be specifically for Breloom.

Speaking of Salamence, Lum Berry Salamence / Dragonite seem like a nice answer to Breloom. Both can Outrage for a guaranteed OHKO (Stealth Rock / Spikes are needed if running Jolly), and Adamant Dragonite can OHKO Breloom with Fire Punch with Spikes or sun support. Even Jolly Salamence is nearly guaranteed to OHKO Breloom with Fire Blast, provided it isn't raining. Best of all, Lum still holds utility for the two even if the opponent has no Breloom, making it easier to set up with Dragon Dance, or snapping the two out of Outrage confusion. The only issue with Dragonite is that its nature could depend on what Breloom nature becomes prevalent. If most Breloom opt for Adamant Dragonite can also run Adamant, as per usual, but if Jolly increases in popularity Dragonite might find itself forced to change its nature as well.
 
2. Why are we forgetting about all the stuff that resists mach punch, outspeeds, and ohkos, things like tornadus starmie etc
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problem with countering Breloom with frail mons is that Mach Punch will take them down if they're not totally healthy.

+2 LO Mach Punch vs 4/0 Starmie = 61.07% - 72.14%
vs 4/0 Tornadus-T = 56.00% - 66.00%
vs 4/0 Volcarona = 63.78% - 75.00%
vs 4/0 Latios = 55.63% - 65.56%

etc

they're checks but if i'm using Breloom I'm thinking to myself 'right, all i need to do is get SR down and knock 20%~ of them mons and I win'

Celebi is a rock-solid counter, even when running an offensive set. Gengar, Froslass and Chandelure can bypass the threat of Mach Punch. Intimidate Salamence basically gets a free-switch in sans Spore. Bulky Volcarona is an awesome counter, especially with Flame Body (note that Bullet Seed is non-contact though).

oh and a nice calc for those doubting Amoongus's potential as a counter ...

0 SpA Clear Smog vs 4/0 Breloom = 54.96% - 64.89%

cleanly 2hko and negate all boosts? go on then...
 
As long as you avoid switching in on Spore or Mach Punch, even 252 HP / 0 Def Calm Amoonguss counters Breloom. Rock Tomb variants are a bit more up in the air though.

+2 252 Adamant LO Techniloom vs. 252/0 Calm Amoonguss...
Mach Punch: 43.05 - 50.69%
Bullet Seed: 40.27 - 47.22% (if it hits every time, I think)
Rock Tomb: 71.99 - 84.72%
 
Arcticblast said:
As long as you avoid switching in on Spore or Mach Punch, even 252 HP / 0 Def Calm Amoonguss counters Breloom. Rock Tomb variants are a bit more up in the air though.

+2 252 Adamant LO Techniloom vs. 252/0 Calm Amoonguss...
Mach Punch: 43.05 - 50.69%
Bullet Seed: 40.27 - 47.22% (if it hits every time, I think)
Rock Tomb: 71.99 - 84.72%
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Nope. your Bullet Seed calc is only for 3 hits.
 
Scarfwynaut said:
How much defensive investment would be good for Amoogus then? I still want to keep some special defense to take out Keldeo.
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I am assuming Breloom is 252 Adamant, and Amoonguss has max HP. I am also assuming that Amoonguss is running a +SpDef nature (eg. Calm). Lastly, these calcs assume that Amoonguss is coming in at the end of a turn (i.e. it doesn't get Lefties healing as it switches in).

8 Def EVs mean it cannot 2HKO with 3-hit LO Bullet Seed (after SR)
64 Def EVs mean it cannot 2HKO with 3-hit LO Bullet Seed (after SR, and Sandstorm up)

28 Def EVs mean it cannot 2HKO you with 4-hit Leftovers Bullet Seed (after SR)
76 Def EVs mean it cannot 2HKO you with 4-hit Leftovers Bullet Seed (after SR, and Sandstorm up)

76 Def EVs mean it cannot 3HKO you with 3-hit Leftovers Bullet Seed (after SR)
188 Def EVs mean it cannot 3HKO you with 3-hit Leftovers Bullet Seed (after SR, and Sandstorm up)

I can do calcs for 2/5 hit Bullet Seeds if you want, but 3/4 is what Breloom is most likely to get.
I can also do calcs with Spikes or with no hazards if you want, but SR is standard.
 
Thanks man, 76 def seems to be the best, if it ends up really bothering me I can always run 188 def. Although I think at 188 def bold is better, 252 HP / 108 Def / 148 SDef Bold saves 10 evs in special defense.
 
Scarfwynaut said:
Thanks man, 76 def seems to be the best, if it ends up really bothering me I can always run 188 def. Although I think at 188 def bold is better, 252 HP / 108 Def / 148 SDef Bold saves 10 evs in special defense.
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in order to counter keldeo and breloom effectively, i only found 40 def. to be necessary. i had some calcs up on the other thread.

+2 Mach Punch: +2 252 Atk LO Breloom (+Atk) Mach Punch vs 252 HP/40 Def Amoonguss (+SDef) : 3 hits to KO (with Leftovers) 199 - 234 (46.06% - 54.17%)
+2 5 hits Bullet Seed: +2 252 Atk LO Breloom (+Atk) 5 hits bullet seed vs 252 HP/40 Def Amoonguss (+SDef) : 3 hits to KO (with Leftovers) 206 - 243 (47.69% - 56.25%)
+2 3 hits Bullet Seed: +2 252 Atk LO Breloom (+Atk) 3 hits bullet seed vs 252 HP/40 Def Amoonguss (+SDef) : 5 hits to KO (with Leftovers) 123 - 145 (28.47% - 33.56%)
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bluemon said:
in order to counter keldeo and breloom effectively, i only found 40 def. to be necessary. i had some calcs up on the other thread.
+2 Mach Punch: +2 252 Atk LO Breloom (+Atk) Mach Punch vs 252 HP/40 Def Amoonguss (+SDef) : 3 hits to KO (with Leftovers) 199 - 234 (46.06% - 54.17%)
+2 5 hits Bullet Seed: +2 252 Atk LO Breloom (+Atk) 5 hits bullet seed vs 252 HP/40 Def Amoonguss (+SDef) : 3 hits to KO (with Leftovers) 206 - 243 (47.69% - 56.25%)
+2 3 hits Bullet Seed: +2 252 Atk LO Breloom (+Atk) 3 hits bullet seed vs 252 HP/40 Def Amoonguss (+SDef) : 5 hits to KO (with Leftovers) 123 - 145 (28.47% - 33.56%)
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Why not have Black Sludge for the calcs?
 
bluemon said:
Leftovers > black sludge, but they do the same thing anyways
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Ah. For some reason, I thought BS *Black Sludge* healed 1/8th. Brain Fart.

But still, more people seem to be using Amoongus. It is the 2nd most seen pokemon on all the B2W2 sims, losing to Tornadus T. (Note: that is based of my experience, not a fact)

Also, Chandelure and Gengar seem to be good checks, as they both outspeed Jolly Loom, resist Bullet Seed, and are immune to Mach Punch. Pretty sure that Gengar 2HKOs with HP ice/Fire, and I am certain Chandy OHKOs with Flamethrower, Fire Blast, and Overheat...
 
I normally wouldn't quote myself but these are special circumstances (Breloom is uber):

Jumpman16 said:
In keeping with my fetish for Choice Band/Specs, I actually feel that should Techniloom ever be released a CB set would have a ton of merit. I would use:

Breloom @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4HP/252Atk/252Spe
Nature: Adamant
~ Mach Punch
~ Bullet Seed
~ Low Sweep
~ Stone Edge[/Spore]

Everything here whores Technician but the worst move in the game, which I guess is required for Dragonite and Salamence. With Jolly, Breloom would be able to tie beneficial speed nature 130 Base Speed pokemon that would switch into LS, but that distinction is reserved for exactly Crobat which would have a 50/50 shot of OHKOing Loom anyway. More important are the pokes between 115-130 base speed that would even dare switch into Breloom, and that is pretty much only Starmie, which would be 240 speed (if Timid and 252 Spe EVs) to Adamant Breloom's 239. One pokemon isn't enough to forgo the 10% boost to Attack afforded by Adamant, especially for the weird scarf stuff that doesn't deserve my attention that would have any chance of falling in between 240 and 262 speed after switching into exactly one move in LS. Adamant also allows Breloom to do more with BS to Chandelure, which is enough of a little bitch without its DW ability.

Force Palm is an option over Low Sweep if you would rather attempt to spread paralysis and have a 30% chance of accomplishing the same thing over two turns as you would with LS against most pokemon (those slower than 115+ Base Speed max pokes accounting for scarves) and make it potentially easier for Breloom or a teammate to sweep later, but Low Sweep is just that good.

Here is the fun part: damage calculations! Bullet Seed hits for a little over three hits and 172 Power on average with rounding (three hits would be 165) so I'll use three hits for the Bulled Seed calcs. For some numbers:

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom -1 Atk Low Sweep
vs. Adamant min/min Salamence : 29.3% - 34.4%

Two hits and you have 69% even after Intim—if SR is up (as it should be when using a pokemon whose STAB is resisted by fliers), Salamence will fall with basically any other prior damage.

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom -1 Atk Stone Edge
vs. Adamant min/min Salamence : 87% - 102.7%

Always dying if SR is up.

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Stone Edge
vs. Timid min/min Chandelure : 150.2% - 177%

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits)
vs. Timid min/min Chandelure : 62.1% - 74.7%

Doesn't quite notch the OHKO on average with SR up, but it's still very comforting to know that that Chandelure can't safely switch into half the moves of a pokemon it hard counters on paper via type (nothing counters Breloom though cause it's uber).

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch
vs. Adamant max/min Scizor : 47.1% - 55.8%

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Adamant min/min Scizor : 86.1% - 101.8%

Pretty much can't switch into TeCBreloom (awful lol) at all and even threaten Bullet Punch unless Loom uses Bullet Seed.

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Careful max/min Vespiquen: 23.3% - 27.3%

Even with SR up you may not be able to get Vespiquen, but that's what Stone Edge is for:

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Stone Edge
vs. Careful max/min Vespiquen: 410.5% - 483.7%

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Timid min/min Latios : 48.2% - 56.8%

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits)
vs. Timid min/min Latios : 59.8% - 70.8%

Low Sweep is a move. Latios is a pokemon. Breloom is also a pokemon, one that beats Latios with Low Sweep. Watch out for scarf obviously, though 2 Mach Punches will do 64-76%.

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits)
vs. Timid min/min Thundurus/Tornadus : 67.2% - 79.3%

With SR this has a shot to KO.

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Timid min/min Thundurus/Tornadus : 54.2% - 63.9%

Always "OHKOed" by two LSes.

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Timid min/min Volcarona : 55.3% - 65.3%

Doesn't even need SR support to kill every time with 2 LSes.

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits)
vs. Impish max/max Gliscor : 51.7% - 61.9%

No. Gliscor is also 226 speed to Breloom 239. Breloom has to do min damage like three turns in a row against Gliscor for it to be able to outstall the Bullet Seed damage with Poison Heal, but good luck with that. I'm sure some metagaming goes on with speed EVs and defensive EVs since Gliscor is a solid Breloom check with Poison Heal activated, so I won't bother calcing anything else here besides the 21-25% that Breloom does to this same Gliscor with Low Sweep.

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Timid min/min Starmie : 52.9% - 62.5%

Jolly would 2HKO pretty much every time (and outspeed Starmie after the first hit which is the point) doing 48-57% but have fun switching a water type into a grass type that would otherwise put you to sleep or do like 500% with bullet seed (264-312% on average with BS but who's counting [i guess i am]).

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits)
vs. Timid min/min Gengar : 86.2% - 102.3%

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Stone Edge
vs. Timid min/min Gengar : 104.2% - 122.6%

You don't scare Breloom, Gengar.


You get the drift. Breloom is uber. Basically, the only things in the top 10 from June Stats that can switch into Breloom at all are Gliscor kind of and Dragonite. Expand to top 25 and you have Skarmory, further to the rest of OU and it's pretty much only Forretress and Celebi. Drain Punch is an option over Stone Edge (and a good one, because fuck Stone Edge) to keep Breloom healthy for hit and runs. So assuming Nintendo isn't unreasonable (lol, good luck with that) and releases DW Shroomish as a female which would allow for egg move Bullet Seed, CB Techniloom would pose a different but formidable threat to the metagame. It's not unreasonable to feel that this would be released before ST Chandy is, and we'd probably just ban that anyway (because seriously Gamefreak?).
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Any new thoughts about this? I think Tech CB Low Sweep is cute when you consider you essentially OHKO Latios with a Fighting move. New calcs:

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Timid min/min Tornadus-T: 48.5% - 57.2%

Essentially the same as Latios damage-wise except that it will still be faster after Low Sweep if 252 Spe EVs and Timid, but it's weak to SR so there's that too

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Timid min/min Thundurus-T: 54.2% - 63.9%

252 Adamant Choice Band Technician Breloom Low Sweep
vs. Adamant min/min Moxie Salamence : 43.8% - 51.7%

No Intimidate means that Loom isn't scared of a Sala switchin—if SR is up you win. Anyway, the Top 25 has changed since I last did this but it's safe to say that determining matchups now is futile because Breloom will have quite a say in what the BW2 OU list will look like.
 
Wow those calcs are scary.

Thanks jumpman.

I know we have discussed this before, but what's the validity of rock tomb?

Two hits hit harder than one stone edge and so breloom might get two hits in with the speed drop and get some important Kos
 
Rock Tomb has 50 power (75 with Technician, unless I'm missing something) and lowers the target's Speed.
Stone Edge has 100 power and a high critical hit ratio.
Both moves have the same accuracy.

I'm going with no on Rock Tomb.

but holy fuck Jumpman those are some scary calcs.
 
Yeah I have tried this on Pokemon Online and its very deadly for sure, I tried a couple of moves and in the end started to run this set.

Breloom
@Choice Band
Adamant
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Mach Punch
Bullet Seed
Force Palm
Stone Edge
 
Arcticblast said:
Rock Tomb has 50 power (75 with Technician, unless I'm missing something) and lowers the target's Speed.
Stone Edge has 100 power and a high critical hit ratio.
Both moves have the same accuracy.

I'm going with no on Rock Tomb.

but holy fuck Jumpman those are some scary calcs.
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Sounds like it would be great for similar reasons to Low Sweep, if you really have a reason to use a Rock-type move. Unfortunately lacks the ability to hit everything for huge damage, though.

Anyway, Breloom is my favorite Pokemon to use competitively, so fuck yeah. Made a team with it immediately; I'm going with Spore over a Rock-type move for now to see if things work out.
 
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