NP without the third coverage move is terrible for the reasons I just discussed. And Thunder is bad, Tbolt is better when weather is changed. You can't really expect to go out there and hit anything with Thunder and HP Ice, can you?
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Thundurus-T
- Thread starter Afti
- Start date
Thunder's insane power boost combined with the 30% par rate is too good to pass up, imo. Even in Sand, 70% is passable. When you only have 2 atk moves, you want to make up for the lack of coverage with raw power. Thundurus only suffers using Thunder when it faces Sun teams, so winning the weather war would be significant against Sun.
I'd also like to point out that in that scenario, Sub really didn't do anything useful. If you Sub on the switch, then NP when they break the Sub, why not just NP on the switch? All it's doing is preventing the opponent from switching in to something faster (immediately) that can revenge, which wouldn't let you NP in the first place and is not something any one with half of mind does anyway.
I'm saying it's either Sub+3 attacks or NP/agility + 3 attacks. Thundurus doesn't have the 2 move coverage that Terrakion has that lets it afford a SubSD set.
I'm saying it's either Sub+3 attacks or NP/agility + 3 attacks. Thundurus doesn't have the 2 move coverage that Terrakion has that lets it afford a SubSD set.
The only set I would consider running Tbolt over Thunder on is the Agility set since that's the best set Thundy-T can use to sweep and it generally gets only one good shot at it. The power loss is noticeable, but the ability to run a Modest nature more effectively and the use of a Life Orb can help to shore this up. Also, the para rate of Thunder is pointless since you're at +2 Speed to start with and I'd rather have a 100% accurate STAB move in all weather conditions if I'm trying to sweep an opposing team rather than trying to revenge kill (Scarf) or wallbreak stuff. (NP)
With something like NP Thundurus, you want to be able to get a hit off before something comes in to revenge you (and it is easily picked off due to its frailty). Thunder, as has been pointed out countless times in this thread, doesn't make a difference against Blissey/Chansey as you need Focus Blast for them anyway. And if you think Thunder lets you get past Ferro, you're dreaming; Gyro Ball 3HKOs, you need some extreme parahax to kill it.
Let's take the previous example again. If your opponent thinks you're about to HP Ice Gliscor, are they going to switch in their Scarf Thundy/Lando etc? Unlikely, that would generally be a terrible play on their part unless they were 100% sure that you're NP (and are also going to use NP).
If they switch into a Chansey that walls you, you're switching out and you've wasted time by subbing.
Let's take the previous example again. If your opponent thinks you're about to HP Ice Gliscor, are they going to switch in their Scarf Thundy/Lando etc? Unlikely, that would generally be a terrible play on their part unless they were 100% sure that you're NP (and are also going to use NP).
If they switch into a Chansey that walls you, you're switching out and you've wasted time by subbing.
@Earthduster: Pretty sure the idea of SubNP is to force something to take a +2 attack to the face. Outside of Ferrothorn, not a whole lot will like taking +2 Thunder or HP Ice. As long as whatever comes in is scared of Thunder or HP Ice and is slower than you, (think Gliscor, Dragonite, etc.) it'll likely have to switch out to something as you boost to +2. That's the thing. Something on your opponent's team will have to stomach a +2 hit from Thundy-T just to have a shot at killing it off. Sure, Ferrothorn can, but not a whole lot else can. Your teammates should then be able to take advantage of whatever Thundy-T is able to KO. Again, I've never used the set, so I could be wrong on the whole idea of it.
I can see a Jirachi getting murked by +2 LO Thunder, but again, Sub doesn't do jack in that situation.. similarly I doubt that anyone is switching in Gliscor or Dragonite as their primary response to seeing a Thundurus (correct me if I'm wrong). A lot of rain teams, if not most, are packing Ferrothorn (which would then require you to take it out first if you're going to use the set), while Thunder+HP Ice can't hit Ninetales for jack and has to deal with reduced accuracy issues in Sand. I'm just not seeing it.
It tends to depend on who you bring Thundurus-T in on. Bring it in on a Water type like Rotom-W or Politoed, odds are a Ground type will come in trying to prevent a predicted Volt Switch. Bring it in on a Steel type like Heatran, and the opponent will likely be forced to bring in a Fighting resist for what could be a Focus Blast. That's the time you should Sub and then react. If it's something faster, smack it. If it's more defensive and doesn't want to have anything to do with Thunder or HP Ice, set up. With a Sub up, you have to remember that you generally have a free turn to do whatever you want to do, free of charge, as long as the switch-in can't start setting up on you.
Which is why I said either choose Sub or NP. I know what each does, but I also know that Thundurus doesn't have spectacular 2 move coverage.
Thunder / HP Ice works well except Mamoswine in OU ?
Hp ice does nothing to Ferrothorn, Quagsire and Gastrodon. Thunder isn't reliable against TTar (actually it isn't reliable at all unless you can keep rain up 100% of the time). Thundurus needs a 3rd attacking move and even then you always have trobules choosing between focus blast and grass knot. Focus blast gives better coverage obviously but it's accuracy is really a tragedy sometimes.
I just made a post that with calcs on the other page on how with Life Orb and +2 you can 2HKO all of these guys even with a Timid nature. How can you tell me that is not true. You don't even need LO to 2hko Bold Blissey, just SR ffs. Ferrothorn gets 2HKO'ed with SR+1 layer of Spikes with no LO; Calm Blissey also falls in this boat. I ain't dreaming you can calc it yourself
You have to consider against offensive rain teams these guys, especially Ferrothorn, are not going to be in tip top shape at full health throughout the match. So the possibility of Ferrothorn having at least 18% damage on it is high. That and asking for SR damage isn't asking for much.
On Thunder: as of now rain is the weather of choice in this meta. As a matter of fact I would say the large majority of teams are rain teams. With such widespread use, I find Thunder to be reliable enough. Can't argue that Ttar messes it up, but based on my (anecdotal) experience, I haven't seen any Sand teams.
If we're talking how Rain is always going to be around, you need to adjust your calcs for Chansey.
Let's turn around and talk about how well Thundurus is going to keep full health during the match, then; if we're talking two layers wearing down Ferrothorn here, in addition to needing 3 turns of setup + attacking just to knock it out, then it shouldn't be unreasonable to assume that Thundurus is going to be taking SR damage and then put into 2HKO range by Gyro Ball. I don't see how that's any less likely than the scenario you've pointed out. The idea is to be able to set up on Ferrothorn, a poke which according to your typing and resistances should theoretically be easy set up bait, and should be in abundance according to your theory that rain is everywhere.
And to expect that rain is going to be everywhere is far too arrogant a position. We haven't even considered Hail here, which, unsurprisingly really screws up Thundurus. It's interesting to note that +2 LO Thunder OHKO's Ttar, while having the same accuracy as Focus Blast, but you really need that coverage (hitting Abomasnow is a godsend). Since you seem to assume that Thundurus is always going to be around at 100% health, then you can survive Aboma's Ice Shard and then Focus Blast it.
EDIT: Alright, so according to calcs it seems as if Chansey needs to run a bulkier spread than 252/0+. The fact hasn't changed though that Sub doesn't help the NP set when 'smashing' Chanseys.
Let's turn around and talk about how well Thundurus is going to keep full health during the match, then; if we're talking two layers wearing down Ferrothorn here, in addition to needing 3 turns of setup + attacking just to knock it out, then it shouldn't be unreasonable to assume that Thundurus is going to be taking SR damage and then put into 2HKO range by Gyro Ball. I don't see how that's any less likely than the scenario you've pointed out. The idea is to be able to set up on Ferrothorn, a poke which according to your typing and resistances should theoretically be easy set up bait, and should be in abundance according to your theory that rain is everywhere.
And to expect that rain is going to be everywhere is far too arrogant a position. We haven't even considered Hail here, which, unsurprisingly really screws up Thundurus. It's interesting to note that +2 LO Thunder OHKO's Ttar, while having the same accuracy as Focus Blast, but you really need that coverage (hitting Abomasnow is a godsend). Since you seem to assume that Thundurus is always going to be around at 100% health, then you can survive Aboma's Ice Shard and then Focus Blast it.
EDIT: Alright, so according to calcs it seems as if Chansey needs to run a bulkier spread than 252/0+. The fact hasn't changed though that Sub doesn't help the NP set when 'smashing' Chanseys.
About substitute, it is generally a good idea for NP+Sub, but not as solid with agility. The point of substitute is so that you can gain more than one boost. Quite a lot of walls carry sets that don't even have attacking moves- Blissey, Chansey, etc. Of course you're not doing much at +2, but while you're getting there, neither are they. However, assuming that your wall doesn't have attacking moves is not very smart, especially for the frail T-T. What else does substitute allow you to bypass?
-Trick
-Status
-Weak moves
While NP doesn't give T-T a boost in any of it's defensive stats, should it just have two turns to set up then you're virtually unstoppable.
Back to the 'blissey/chansey with no attacking moves' example, let's say they DO have an attacking move- seismic toss. Of course that can break one of your subs and WILL break one of your subs as you set up- but tehn leaves the opponent in a mindgame. Should they ST again to break another incoming sub, or should they status you, hoping to catch you while you try to set up one more time?
The obvious answer would be to attck, because even if T-T doesn't sub you can still cleave off a nice chunk of health before your Blissey goes down. Now, as the player with T-T you could predict that and go for another NP. What I'm trying to say here is, because of T-T's tremendous amount of power after just two boosts, it can decimate most of it's walls. That's why substitute is important- it helps you get those two boosts.
Okay so I tried SubPlot Thundurus and I find it underwhelming. IMO LO/Expert belt is the best. I'm actually using E belt right now and it kicks ass. Each time this guy comes in I know I'm going to dent or kill something which puts a lot of pressure on my opponent. It's also really good at faking choice. I don't know how many times my opponent has tried some ground type into what he thought was a choice locked Volt switch, just to get OHKO'd by a HP Ice or Grass Knot. I went ahead and did a test alt just to see how well this set does and, over the course of 12 battles, he has gotten it to rank 16. So my summary would be this: NP variants are best for beating down Stall, Agility is for cleaning HO, Choice/LO/Ebelt are the best sets for general purposes. In any case, preparing for this guy is a headache when team building and a very risky game of prediction when battling.
Electrolyte,
I don't know who you're playing, but I seriously doubt that anyone is going to be running no attacks on Blissey/Chansey. No one wants to be complete set up bait and completely helpless against any special attacker with Substitute, which unfortunately, is too common to be missing out on Seismic Toss.
Now, you've pointed out the advantages of a Sub - avoiding trick, status, and weak moves. Let's start with 'weak moves' - theoretically, Forretress and Ferrothorn are the ideal opponents for a frail sweeper like Thundurus to come in and get free boosts. It turns out this is not the case - Gyro Ball from each 3HKOs. If Gyro Ball from these walls breaks the sub, Seismic Toss breaks the Sub, I'm having difficulty seeing what other 'weak moves' Sub will protect you from.... Given this fact, it becomes doubly unlikely that anyone is going to be playing your 'mindgames' with Chansey and try to Toxic you, when, after Rocks, 2 Seismic Tosses basically leaves you dead.
These alleged 'mindgames' are of trivial consequences. No one is dumb enough to let you get two boosts off. This is important. If people let you get two boosts up all the time, double boosting sweepers would be all over the place, but alas, this is not the case. And even if you did get to +4, so what? You're still easily outsped and revenged. If anything, I'd rather take that opportunity to Agility, and after trying out that set, I realized that the lack of coverage plainly sucked.
I don't know who you're playing, but I seriously doubt that anyone is going to be running no attacks on Blissey/Chansey. No one wants to be complete set up bait and completely helpless against any special attacker with Substitute, which unfortunately, is too common to be missing out on Seismic Toss.
Now, you've pointed out the advantages of a Sub - avoiding trick, status, and weak moves. Let's start with 'weak moves' - theoretically, Forretress and Ferrothorn are the ideal opponents for a frail sweeper like Thundurus to come in and get free boosts. It turns out this is not the case - Gyro Ball from each 3HKOs. If Gyro Ball from these walls breaks the sub, Seismic Toss breaks the Sub, I'm having difficulty seeing what other 'weak moves' Sub will protect you from.... Given this fact, it becomes doubly unlikely that anyone is going to be playing your 'mindgames' with Chansey and try to Toxic you, when, after Rocks, 2 Seismic Tosses basically leaves you dead.
These alleged 'mindgames' are of trivial consequences. No one is dumb enough to let you get two boosts off. This is important. If people let you get two boosts up all the time, double boosting sweepers would be all over the place, but alas, this is not the case. And even if you did get to +4, so what? You're still easily outsped and revenged. If anything, I'd rather take that opportunity to Agility, and after trying out that set, I realized that the lack of coverage plainly sucked.
Nearly all Blissey and Chansey run Seismic Toss. It's not a "let's say they DO have an attacking move" kind of thing by any stretch. Anyway, Substitute's main merit is against offensive teams. If your opponent switches into a faster, frailer attacker expecting you to Nasty Plot, then they're at a severe disadvantage if you Substitute instead, especially when considering that Thundurus-T is immune to Volt Switch and resistant to U-turn. Substitute gives you an advantage against teams Nasty Plot normally wouldn't work as well against, and eases prediction. It's not an ideal move for stallbreaking. You're better off going three attacks with Lum Berry in that situation, which actually does let you get that second boost with no need for mindgames against something like Blissey. If you're looking solely for the opportunity to reach +4, then Lum Berry is by and far superior to Substitute, since not only does it nearly guarantee this against the likely special walls that could switch into Thundurus-T, such as Chansey or Amoonguss, but it still allows Thundurus-T to maintain the coverage it needs for stallbreaking.
Unless you're running into teams with two or more of Magnezone/Rotom-F/Rotom-H/Lanturn/Shedinja, BoltBeam doesn't suck. Thundy's only coverage issue is whether to run Focus Blast or Grass Knot, in which case Focus Blast is almost always superior. I guess one could make a case for TBolt / Focus Blast / Dark Pulse, but being able to whack the Pokemon that resist Thunderbolt with HP Ice is too good. It also gets Sludge Bomb/Wave, which really don't offer much, and Incinerate which is just pathetic.
EDIT: I've been using a mixed Agility Thundurus-T with Superpower recently, but found that Focus Blast outdamages it against most things even in Sand. The only ones that aren't hit harder by Focus Blast are either hit even harder by Thunderbolt or HP Ice, are Normal-type fatasses who still take decent damage from Focus Blast (and should be removed anyway) or are rarely seen in OU (Gallade, basically). Superpower's only benefit lies in a bit of a surprise factor and accuracy. tl;dr don't go mixed when using Agility.
I myself enjoy the LO Thundurus-T. In Sun teams it helps pitt against Rain and Sand teams. OHKOS Tyranitar and most Politoed. At +4 it can nail Blissey rather smoothly. Since most Sun have limited spots for special attackers other then Sun abusers themselves this IMO helps greatly. I would hate to see this guy leave to Ubers. In all regards Thundurus-T can help break through nearly any Pokemon giving the right Team support and offensive synergy. <3
For those thinking that Sub NP beats ferrothorn...
I had one that was minus speed so that gyro didn't break his sub try to set up on me.
Even at +2 behind a sub, he still lost. He was running Lefties over LO of course, but if it WAS LO with an offensive spread, it would have been far easier for me to beat him as I could just leech seed him more reliably.
Theorymon:
With Tbolt LO and modest vs Ferrothorn, using the median damage
You sub on switch, he brings out ferro.
-You 75% Him 100% (assuming no spikes, SR just gets leftied)
You NP, He breaks your sub
-You 75% Him 100%
You Tbolt, He gyros
-You 18%, Him 58%
You Tbolt, He gyros
-You dead, Him 16%
If you want to risk thunder, he can always just throw a protect in there for a round of lefties while you risk missing, as well as paralyzing (which by the way is WORSE for you as he flat out OHKOs you clean).
TL;DR SubPlot sucks, Pick one or the other and use Focus Blast for coverage.
SubPlot was only justifiable on Thundy-I because he could scout faster pokes, as well as get off a Nasty Plot easily before anything could taunt him.
I had one that was minus speed so that gyro didn't break his sub try to set up on me.
Even at +2 behind a sub, he still lost. He was running Lefties over LO of course, but if it WAS LO with an offensive spread, it would have been far easier for me to beat him as I could just leech seed him more reliably.
Theorymon:
With Tbolt LO and modest vs Ferrothorn, using the median damage
You sub on switch, he brings out ferro.
-You 75% Him 100% (assuming no spikes, SR just gets leftied)
You NP, He breaks your sub
-You 75% Him 100%
You Tbolt, He gyros
-You 18%, Him 58%
You Tbolt, He gyros
-You dead, Him 16%
If you want to risk thunder, he can always just throw a protect in there for a round of lefties while you risk missing, as well as paralyzing (which by the way is WORSE for you as he flat out OHKOs you clean).
TL;DR SubPlot sucks, Pick one or the other and use Focus Blast for coverage.
SubPlot was only justifiable on Thundy-I because he could scout faster pokes, as well as get off a Nasty Plot easily before anything could taunt him.
Playing with Thund-T, it really is amazing how slow 105 base speed has become. The electric immunity and typing is really good though, and goes a long way in helping against SR and adds a layer of depth to the rain war (especially the mirror-match). I can't wait for DW Zapdos (which hopefully gets hurricane damn it).
@Nysyr Are you sure you aren't using the regular form? Thunderus-T does 51% (Ferro stands at 55% after lefties) minimum with the given LO and Modest Nature. You also seem to be counting Life Orb recoil twice where you should be at 18%.
I don't get why you guys are saying Thunder is so unreliable. Rain is by far the most used weather and I have seen very few sand and sun teams. Even if you do encounter them you can engage in a weather war (which you would have done with Tbolt on a rain team anyway) like we have for BW1. With such little usage, it isn't arrogant to assume Rain is up. Should we use 70% accuracy on all Tornadus calcs? ;.; The reason why I am so belligerent on Thunder is because on SubPlot you give up coverage but make up for it by hitting amazingly hard with your STAB. On Volt Absorb Nasty Plot/Substitute: saying that is worse because it can be taunted is irrelevant. What runs Taunt above the 101 speed tier that isn't a Prankster in OU?
You don't bring Thundy-T in early game, boost up, and try to take down your counters from 100%. Like every other sweeper, you weaken the counters with hazards or Pokemon that hit the same target to overload them. On offensive rain teams that is really easy to do with Starmie and Tornadus-T because teams usually rely on Ferrothorn (not really Tornadus)/Blissey/Chansey to take them on. The 2HKO's with Thunder aren't to show that Thundy-T can beat them in a 1 vs 1 situation from turn 1, but at a point where they are weakened.
I don't get why you guys are saying Thunder is so unreliable. Rain is by far the most used weather and I have seen very few sand and sun teams. Even if you do encounter them you can engage in a weather war (which you would have done with Tbolt on a rain team anyway) like we have for BW1. With such little usage, it isn't arrogant to assume Rain is up. Should we use 70% accuracy on all Tornadus calcs? ;.; The reason why I am so belligerent on Thunder is because on SubPlot you give up coverage but make up for it by hitting amazingly hard with your STAB. On Volt Absorb Nasty Plot/Substitute: saying that is worse because it can be taunted is irrelevant. What runs Taunt above the 101 speed tier that isn't a Prankster in OU?
You don't bring Thundy-T in early game, boost up, and try to take down your counters from 100%. Like every other sweeper, you weaken the counters with hazards or Pokemon that hit the same target to overload them. On offensive rain teams that is really easy to do with Starmie and Tornadus-T because teams usually rely on Ferrothorn (not really Tornadus)/Blissey/Chansey to take them on. The 2HKO's with Thunder aren't to show that Thundy-T can beat them in a 1 vs 1 situation from turn 1, but at a point where they are weakened.
You didn't get it. I was talking about Double Dance (NP&Agility on the same set), in which case you rely on Boltbeam coverage, which DOES suck.
This is such a hassle that I don't understand why I would want to go to all this trouble, barely squeeze by a Ferro, and then get revenged. The point is to set up on Ferro, not have to set up on something else. If you can't set up on something that only carries moves that you resist/are immune to, I don't see how you'll have that many other opportunities. Obviously you should weaken your counters before attempting a sweep, but Ferrothorn shouldn't be considered as a counter in the first place in this instance. You should be setting up on it, not setting up on something else and then expend all your energy trying to get through it. MAYBE you can get through it with just thunder, but you still can't sub on it, and you'll be left with basically no HP. I don't get why you're so resistant to the idea of running 3 coverage moves with Nasty Plot.
And again, if we're taking you as coming in late game in this instance, you'll be at 75%, making it even harder to set up. Hazards aren't a one way thing.
Expert Belt sounds like a great idea, as whenever i see a Thundurus-T using Volt Switch without taking LO damage i assume it is choiced.
What moves are you running on it? I am guessing Volt Switch / Thunderbolt / HP Ice are givens, but what about the 4th slot?