Manaphy uber?

[Planswalker89]

Okay, I'll admit up front that I have yet to play online via wi-fi, so pretty much all of what I'm going to say is based on pure speculation and what I've read here.

Personally, I am thinking Manaphy should be bumped up. It seems like its power can really overwhelm opponents with the proper set-up, and while I know that sometimes that can be hard to create, it's also got a very good trait in Hydration. Rain Dance makes Manaphy pretty annoying to beat if it has rest.

I don't think there are very many people here that say that Manaphy's power is not rather high. many OU pokemon are. The decision, then, comes down to counters. A lot of the big OU pokemon are powerful, but have a few glaring weaknesses that are rather common. So the question is: does manaphy fall into this category?

There are quite a few pokemon who can easily counter manaphy, as some people have said. However, there are a lot of pokemon that can be specifically trained to counter one specific pokemon - this can apply to nearly every single one, uber or not. If these are the only real kinds of counters we can come up with, then Manaphy should be bumped up.

From what I've read, no one has mentioned a general counter for manaphy, like how Salamence and Garchomp have a weakness to Ice-type attacks that are rather common on most teams. The one move that I would think would do that would be Grass Knot, but it's been mentioned many times already that Grass Knot isn't that good against Manaphy.

the one thing I see that might serve as a sort-of counter (taking into account that my experience is almost nonexistant) would be Thunder(bolt). It's a rather common attack, and thunder's accuracy is perfect in a rainstorm. However, if this doesn't serve as a decent counter for manaphy, I'd think it likely that we'll see him in the uber tier. And even if it is, it's only one counter. I would think that a pokemon would need more than one counter to be classified as OU.

There's my two cents, do with it what you will.

 

[Renalia]

Dewgong only has 475 total stats compared to Manaphy's 600

That's the difference right there.

125 stats is a lot of stats, and base 100 across the board is really good.

 

[ANinyMouse]

...Does no one realize that Dewgong also has Hydration? Dewgong only has 475 total stats compared to Manaphy's 600, but it seems like most of the talk of making Manaphy uber is for Rest/Hydration alone

Dewgong only has 475 total stats compared to Manaphy's 600, but it seems like most of the talk of making Manaphy uber is for Rest/Hydration alone

Dewgong only has 475 total stats compared to Manaphy's 600

475 total stats

I've read the whole thread a few times and I've really sat down and thought it over, and I've decided that if Manaphy doesn't have Rain Dance on it's own move set then it's basically a slower, weaker Azelf. If it does carry its own Rain Dance, then it is not an offensive threat to the metagame and cannot cause overcentralizing due to its moveslot syndrome. The situation that puts Manaphy into Uber would be one where it got the benefits of Rain Dance but did not have to initiate the weather itself -- doable in OU but up until now thought dubious at best.

Regardless of whether of not the big wigs agree with my point of view and allow it into OU, Manaphy will make a fine addition to Ubers with Kyogre and/or Palkia backing it up.

Option 3 (I like to call it "Footnote's Ulimatum" *smile*) would be to conpletely re-assert what we want "OU" to be in banning most legendaries and 600 BST Pokemon into Ubers, essentially removing the most uncounterable threats and allowing for greater variety. This, of course, goes completely against Smogon's proud history of "only ban it if destroys the game" and it's prized philosophy of "use whatever means necessary to win, variety be damned." Now, I have nothing but the greatest of respect for the Smogon community, I attribute most of my competitive knowlege to this website alone, I like most of you, I enjoy being here and I certainly have NOTHING against the current concensus of what DP OU should become... I just think that totally outside of this Manaphy argument is an environment that simply will not run into such debates. It's a "safe" metagame -- instead of giving the benefit of the doubt and banning only over time, this metagame just removes the highest classes outright and puts them all on "probation" status. Obviously, Registeel, Entei and Cresselia will never unbalance OU and their ilk would return in no time, with the outliers like Manaphy here or Azelf left to carve a new niche.

I've played my share of Wi-Fi and I've even used Manaphy before. No big deal, in my humble opinion, unless it has a ton of setup and help from the team. ANY. SWEEPER. IN. THE. GAME.

TL;DR:

A) Tail Glow Manaphy: OK for current OU structure if we're keeping Azelf; not any more threatening in particular than any other sweeper that doulbes it's attack due to no recovery.
B) Hydro Rest Manaphy: OK for current OU structure since it only stalls aimlessly; set up your own threat while it piddles away!
C) Rest/Tail Glow Manaphy: OK for current OU structure due to easily resisted offensive; only an issue if it relies on another Pokemon to supply the Rain
D) Footnote is awesome; he has good ideas and is helpful in general.

ADDENDUM:
I realize that Rain provides another 1.5x boost to it's Surf on top of everything else, though, and so Rest/Tail Glow Manaphy may be Uber material for sure. I've yet to use this variation since it requires another Pokemon to be effective.

 

[CT20]

Manaphy does not have a Dark weakness, and is not completely decimated by Weaville Pursuit. It has nothing that threatens to stop its sweep. Manaphy for that reason is sort of better than Azelf, not to mention the beefier defenses and a potential 100% instant recovery move(Azelf isn't something not to be feared, stupid Explosion Azelfs are hard to predict :P)


It doesn't matter to me that Manaphy is uber or not. Seismic Toss Blissey has a Hard time beating Substitute Versions, and probably has to lean towards CM. However, the CM Version of Blissey has problems with other sweepers(Raikou anyone?). Blissey, then, probably can't keep its "1 answer to all" special wall status.

 

[ANinyMouse]

I'd say it evens out, moreso, since Azelf can deal more damage most of the time. Just because a surefire switch-in to Manaphy is BL (Water Absorb, Ludicolo) and not top-OU (Weavile) doesn't mean it's a less effective counter. Blissey fails at countering these guys depending on its moveset at times, both.

 

[Mr.E]

Garchomp also learns Dragon Claw and Earthquake, both with stab, which it can fire off all it likes, and is resisted by only 2 pokemon. Also Garchomp has 6/5x manaphies attack stat. Against a Mew with equal defences Dragon Claw will out power Manaphys surf, and EQ will outpower its Hydropump.

My point about people being more prepared to deal with physical threats (Rhyperior, T-Tar, etc.) is that people typically EV for higher Defense over higher Special Defense. Why? Because there are more physical threats than special threats; it makes sense. With that in mind, Garchomp's higher Attack is somewhat off-set by his opponent's higher Defense. Also, keep in mind Manaphy will usually be supported by Rain Dance and thus have quite a powerful Surf (or Hydro Pump lol). Garchomp's Sand Veil can be supported by Sandstorm/Stream, but that doesn't directly boost its damage and it's hard to quantify the total benefit Garchomp receives.

That is only if you are using Rain Dance, which takes a lot more effort.. I mean, if you baton pass a swords dance and a speed boost to Garchomp it will be quite hard to deal with too! Plus Garchomp shrugs off thunderwaves a lot better than Manaphy..

Hydration is SO powerful that'd be ridiculous not to take advantage of it. There's nothing wrong with basing yourself on weather, especially considering how prevalent Sand Stream has become in D/P. Not only do you clear Sand Stream (and robbing your opponent of the benefits THEY receive from it), but you can take advantage of it with Hydration and a souped-up Surf plus other team benefits (angry Gyarados, Toxicroak, Thunder usage, etc.). The weather Rock hold items DO make weather usage viable. Building a Rain Dance team around Manaphy and friends isn't a whole lot different than building a Sand Stream team around T-Tar and friends, except Manaphy benefits from Rain Dance way more than Garchomp does from Sandstorm.

I'll give you T-Wave immunity, but Manaphy's offense isn't crippled by Burn either so it's a bit of a wash. Baton Pass is irrelevant.

Garchomp has a slight advantage in resists but perhaps more importantly, Manaphy also LACKS weaknesses. You know, the whole "bulky water" thing. Garchomp has a glaring 4x Ice weakness easily taken advantage of, and the Dragon weakness is also none too friendly these days. Electric isn't quite as common as Ice, nor is Manaphy double weak to it. Grass Knot does jack to Manaphy and you can usually see Energy Ball coming a mile away.

If your scared of all-out attacking Tail Glow Manaphy, I can only hope you never see a Nasty Plotting Azelf in your competitive battling career.

However, Azelf is OHKOed or 2HKOed by almost everything under the sun and quite a few things can switch into it (either because they completely wall it or can take one NP hit and OHKO in retaliation). T-Tar most notably walls it completely, but Heatran, Spiritomb, and some Dusknoir and Cresselia also make good counters. Weavile can switch in and, if at full health, can even survive an unboosted Flamethrower if predicted. Azelf is weak to Pursuit, has a hard time switching in to most things, and has no way to counter status while active. You guys mentioned Blissey? CM Blissey is terrible anyway, but Blissey will Sing or T-Wave Azelf. Every. Single. Time. Rest assured it WILL ruin Azelf.

Manaphy is weak to none of those things, its only "walls" are overspecialized counters, and it has the defenses and typing to switch into a whole lot of things. Azelf has a couple of cool things (Explosion, >300 Speed) but the complete package has nothing on Manaphy.

Manaphy is a team player. If nothing else, it requires Rain Dance support from other team members to bring out its full potential. So what? It's not a complicated ordeal like a Baton Pass chain. It lasts 8 turns coming from a Damp Rock holder. It clears lame-o Sand Stream and the very nature of a Rain Dance team keeps T-Tar/Hippowdon suppressed and most Sunny Day users away. Pokémon is a team game. If all it takes for Manaphy to become an unstoppable force is for his buddy Ludicolo (or whoever) to set up another 4-6 turns of Rain Dance for it to use, Manaphy is looking pretty good.

 

[CT20]

You overlook the fact that Weaville Pursuit is almost a guaranteed kill on Azelf, stay in or switch out. And I wouldn't switch in Weaville on Azelf unless it was apparent it was Choice, it can OHKO with Flamethrower and 2HKO's with U-Turn.

Ludicolo cannot stop a 3x Tail Glow Manaphy Sweep, but Weaville can stop a 3x Nasty Plot Azelf sweep, and thats a huge difference. But Ludicolo can actually switch in safely, unless Manaphy carries HP Bug or Flying which I might use just because it hurts Ludicolo a lot.

 

[davewaver]

it only has room for 1 attacking move it is going to hydrarest and tail glow/calm mind, and only ice beam/energy ball, and hidden power are options because there are pokemon immune to water/ghost/psychic

not sure about damage calculations but imagine hp dragon manaphys owning everything cause only steel resists, anyway manaphy has a few good movesets and like a lot of pokemon will take prediction to defeat

 

[MegaBuddha]

Calm Mind/Rain Dance/Rest/surf sounds cool to me at the moment... Though I'd have to try it first

 

[Familiar Trainer]

However, Azelf is OHKOed or 2HKOed by almost everything under the sun and quite a few things can switch into it (either because they completely wall it or can take one NP hit and OHKO in retaliation). T-Tar most notably walls it completely, but Heatran, Spiritomb, and some Dusknoir and Cresselia also make good counters. Weavile can switch in and, if at full health, can even survive an unboosted Flamethrower if predicted. Azelf is weak to Pursuit, has a hard time switching in to most things, and has no way to counter status while active. You guys mentioned Blissey? CM Blissey is terrible anyway, but Blissey will Sing or T-Wave Azelf. Every. Single. Time. Rest assured it WILL ruin Azelf.

Manaphy is weak to none of those things, its only "walls" are overspecialized counters, and it has the defenses and typing to switch into a whole lot of things. Azelf has a couple of cool things (Explosion, >300 Speed) but the complete package has nothing on Manaphy.

Manaphy is a team player. If nothing else, it requires Rain Dance support from other team members to bring out its full potential. So what? It's not a complicated ordeal like a Baton Pass chain. It lasts 8 turns coming from a Damp Rock holder. It clears lame-o Sand Stream and the very nature of a Rain Dance team keeps T-Tar/Hippowdon suppressed and most Sunny Day users away. Pokémon is a team game. If all it takes for Manaphy to become an unstoppable force is for his buddy Ludicolo (or whoever) to set up another 4-6 turns of Rain Dance for it to use, Manaphy is looking pretty good.

Pokemon don't need 100% fool-proof counters. As already stated, the best way to take Manaphy down is probably just to keep hitting it. It's defenses aren't as huge as something like Regirock (not even including sandstorm). When taking him down, think Suicune, except with better healing during rain and worse defenses.

As I already stated, GOOD Rain Dance teams will not have Surf on every Pokemon (3 Pokemon having water offense is pushing it), so I don't know where your getting the "keep Tyranitar/Hippowdon suppressed" idea. Without something like Swampert or Bronzong, Rain Dance teams usually have trouble handling Tyranitar and it's auto-Sandstorm. Keeping weather up is harder then it sounds, even with a Damp Rock. And even then, it's only 8 turns, while overall Rain Dance itself should not be on more then 2 Pokemon on your team. And even when it is up and running, you still have to get Manaphy in (most likely late-game, when all the spikes are out) and set it up.

Rain is not meant to be a winning strategy, but merely a "boost" for 4-6 Pokemon on your team in one way or another.

Abomasnow looks like a nice counter for Manaphy, as it resists Surf and Grass Knot, and it get's rid of rain and replaces it with Hail. Also gets grass STAB and somewhat decent attacking stats.

 

[Mr.E]

"Just keep hitting it." Sound advice, I suppose. Easier said than done, though. Garchomp, Rhyperior, Electivire and I assume T-Tar (after a Tail Glow) are all OHKOed and Garchomp is the only one fast enough to even get a hit in. What are these guys? Most of the game's hardest hitters. (Heracross? Definitely OHKOed with rain, dunno without but I assume it might survive that.) And it doesn't have a hard time switching in since it walls most other Waters, can set up on any defensive pokemon, has above-average defenses and has only one significant weakness. Gyarados resists Manaphy's most powerful attack and has good HP/SpD against Ice Beam, but Manaphy resists its primary attack too and has the free turn advantage.

Not every pokemon on a Rain Dance team is going to have Surf, but you don't think T-Tar and Hippowdon are still afraid of half a team packing Surf? Even those pokemon not packing Surf, such as Ludicolo, could very well be carrying Energy Ball or Grass Knot. T-Tar's other weaknesses can be exploited; for example, it'll never switch into Toxicroak. Hippowdon gets hit hard by Special attacks in general and is weak to Ice. Hippowdon and T-Tar, therefore, are automatically killed in 1-2 hits by at least three or four members of the opponent's team, if not their entire team. Obviously you want to switch them in when the opportunity presents itself, but they don't get many chances and it's easy to re-apply Rain Dance even right in their face. Even if it's no longer a near-unstoppable force, Manaphy still operates quite well without its rain.

Abomasnow? Decent call, but Hail's not as friendly as the other weathers so it's typically as harmful to your team as it is theirs. Abomasnow discussion aside, I suppose it fares better than most purely in the context of countering Manaphy. You'll need to gear it especially for countering Manaphy, though, since otherwise it'll just get 2HKOed by a boosted Ice Beam and then you just have another "overspecialized counter" not useful for much else. Meh.

 

[Familiar Trainer]

"Just keep hitting it." Sound advice, I suppose. Easier said than done, though. Garchomp, Rhyperior, Electivire and I assume T-Tar (after a Tail Glow) are all OHKOed and Garchomp is the only one fast enough to even get a hit in. What are these guys? Most of the game's hardest hitters. (Heracross? Definitely OHKOed with rain, dunno without but I assume it might survive that.) And it doesn't have a hard time switching in since it walls most other Waters, can set up on any defensive pokemon, has above-average defenses and has only one significant weakness. Gyarados resists Manaphy's most powerful attack and has good HP/SpD against Ice Beam, but Manaphy resists its primary attack too and has the free turn advantage.

Not every pokemon on a Rain Dance team is going to have Surf, but you don't think T-Tar and Hippowdon are still afraid of half a team packing Surf? Even those pokemon not packing Surf, such as Ludicolo, could very well be carrying Energy Ball or Grass Knot. T-Tar's other weaknesses can be exploited; for example, it'll never switch into Toxicroak. Hippowdon gets hit hard by Special attacks in general and is weak to Ice. Hippowdon and T-Tar, therefore, are automatically killed in 1-2 hits by at least three or four members of the opponent's team, if not their entire team. Obviously you want to switch them in when the opportunity presents itself, but they don't get many chances and it's easy to re-apply Rain Dance even right in their face. Even if it's no longer a near-unstoppable force, Manaphy still operates quite well without its rain.

Abomasnow? Decent call, but Hail's not as friendly as the other weathers so it's typically as harmful to your team as it is theirs. Abomasnow discussion aside, I suppose it fares better than most purely in the context of countering Manaphy. You'll need to gear it especially for countering Manaphy, though, since otherwise it'll just get 2HKOed by a boosted Ice Beam and then you just have another "overspecialized counter" not useful for much else. Meh.

I constructed a Rain Dance team fairly recently, because I wanted to have a decent-looking team for my Trainer Card that I was going to put into my sig. I kind of grew fond of it, but I never considered it a near unstoppable force. This is probably because Manaphy is one of my Rain Dancers. Why? Well, first of all, pretty much every teammate is necessary, so no changes can be made Pokemon-wise. That, and there are very few other viable Rain Dancers out there.

Bronzong (Rain Dancer)
Gyarados
Electivire
Manaphy (Rain Dancer)
Toxicroak
Blissey

Blissey could Rain Dance instead of acting as Wish support I guess, but that would very much lesser the durability of the team.

Now, is this team in any form or shape, near-indestructible, even if Blissey were indeed a Rain Dancer instead of a Wisher and Manaphy had Tail Glow/Rest/two attacking moves? A team so strong, that your everyday standard team such as:

Salamence
Rhyperior
Gyarados
Jirachi
Cresselia
Heracross

Would tremble in terror? Despite the Rain Dance teams best efforts, it looks like the everyday standard team (another one of my teams xD) would best it, unless you can find some secret hidden strategy in the Rain Dance team. Standard Pokemon having good synergy together is probably an even better strategy then an obvious one, such as Rain Dance.

Abomasnow is indeed a little overspecialized, but so is Empoleon for Specsmence, another huge threat. Hail does indeed hurt both teams quite a bit, but it will probably all even out, with 5/6 Pokemon on your opponents team getting hit by it. I'm not saying Abomasnow is a top tier Pokemon, but imo it certainly is just as good a counter as Ludicolo.

 

[lilyhollow]

Would tremble in terror? Despite the Rain Dance teams best efforts, it looks like the everyday standard team (another one of my teams xD) would best it, unless you can find some secret hidden strategy in the Rain Dance team. Standard Pokemon having good synergy together is probably an even better strategy then an obvious one, such as Rain Dance.

How did you come to that conclusion?

You can't just list six pokemon and then list another six pokemon and somehow tell that team X has an advantage over team Y without a good reason. >_>

 

[Synre]

Pokemon don't need 100% fool-proof counters. As already stated, the best way to take Manaphy down is probably just to keep hitting it. It's defenses aren't as huge as something like Regirock (not even including sandstorm). When taking him down, think Suicune, except with better healing during rain and worse defenses.

Abomasnow looks like a nice counter for Manaphy, as it resists Surf and Grass Knot, and it get's rid of rain and replaces it with Hail. Also gets grass STAB and somewhat decent attacking stats.

E already touched on it, but honestly, I think I counter every Pokemon in the game when I 'keep hitting them.' Normally when I want to kill a Pokemon, I have my Pokemon 'hit them' with moves until their HP hits 0, and then after that I don't need a counter for them anymore.

Obviously the implication here was that 'I'm not going to sit here and let Manaphy Tail Glow/Rain Dance/whatever while I do nothing,' but in many cases you can't do a whole lot to stop it. Much like the Pokemon you mentioned, Suicune, it's not realistic for most Pokemon to get Manaphy in one shot, and with the ability to full heal itself in one turn with Rest in the Rain it's becomes very difficult to get it down - something that was always one of Suicune's weaknesses, needing to spend time asleep after it recovered.

Additionally the Abomasnow point is pretty silly. How often do you see Abomasnow on competitive teams? Almost never, because like most pokemon that are part Ice type, it's has some pretty terrible weaknesses to common types, to go along with average stats all around on top of poor Speed. Abomasnow for the most part isn't really an OU-quality Pokemon, and is a great example of an effective, but highly overspecialized counter.

I constructed a Rain Dance team fairly recently, because I wanted to have a decent-looking team for my Trainer Card that I was going to put into my sig.

I can't even put into words how annoying those Trainer Card signatures(and really any banner) are.

I kind of grew fond of it, but I never considered it a near unstoppable force. This is probably because Manaphy is one of my Rain Dancers. Why? Well, first of all, pretty much every teammate is necessary, so no changes can be made Pokemon-wise. That, and there are very few other viable Rain Dancers out there.

Bronzong (Rain Dancer)
Gyarados
Electivire
Manaphy (Rain Dancer)
Toxicroak
Blissey

Having seen a few fairly effective Rain Dance teams and effective OU teams in general, I'm pretty sure a large part of the problems you faced in this team are likely to be the Pokemon used. The synergy here is average at best, and Toxicroak is really just not an OU quality Pokemon. While you were probably successful in spreading your Rain Dance Gimmick throughout the team, I would definitely say that it is a Gimmick rather than a Strategy based on what little you posted about the team - and it is a terrible way to try to justify Manaphy not being uber, which is nearly irrelevant to the point about your team, especially considering Manaphy itself was a Rain Dancer, which it can do on nearly any team that isn't trying to whore Sandstream that it wants. I would definitely have let another Pokemon set Rain Dance up to free up the moveslot on Manaphy regardless, but that's just me...

Abomasnow is indeed a little overspecialized, but so is Empoleon for Specsmence, another huge threat. Hail does indeed hurt both teams quite a bit, but it will probably all even out, with 5/6 Pokemon on your opponents team getting hit by it. I'm not saying Abomasnow is a top tier Pokemon, but imo it certainly is just as good a counter as Ludicolo.

Ludicolo was staple OU in RS200, which I guess isn't saying a lot, but it's definitely a better Pokemon than Abomasnow.

What is a more important point, however, is that while Empoleon counters Specsmence, basic prediction does a plenty fine job of dealing with Specsmence, who frankly is an extremely overrated threat, especially considering the fact that it really doesn't do much damage to the standard Blissey at all.

Would tremble in terror? Despite the Rain Dance teams best efforts, it looks like the everyday standard team (another one of my teams xD) would best it, unless you can find some secret hidden strategy in the Rain Dance team. Standard Pokemon having good synergy together is probably an even better strategy then an obvious one, such as Rain Dance.

I don't really think you're proving anything here by showing off your fault team creation - as mentioned in a previous post 'I think this team would obviously beat this team' is pretty silly logic, but you're right about Standard Pokemon having good synergy together being a better strategy than trying to use the Rain Dance gimmick along with Pokemon like Toxicroak. Manaphy, however, is plenty capable of existing on teams that are not based exclusively around Rain Dance, and teams that are based around Rain Dance are perfectly capable of not including Pokemon that really have no place in OU.

 

[Familiar Trainer]

How did you come to that conclusion?

You can't just list six pokemon and then list another six pokemon and somehow tell that team X has an advantage over team Y without a good reason. >_>

The point isn't really which team would win if pitted off against each other by equally intelligent trainers, even though it seemed like that due to later wording in the paragraph.

The point that I was really trying to make was this: Does the Rain Dance team really have game-breaking power, even if it's Raining? Is it really near unbeatable, even with Manaphy there to abuse the Rain to no end?

Even so, if I had to pick, my money would still be on the standard team xP Not that it would win 100% of the time of course, but it does look like it has slightly better odds.

 

[Familiar Trainer]

Obviously the implication here was that 'I'm not going to sit here and let Manaphy Tail Glow/Rain Dance/whatever while I do nothing,' but in many cases you can't do a whole lot to stop it. Much like the Pokemon you mentioned, Suicune, it's not realistic for most Pokemon to get Manaphy in one shot, and with the ability to full heal itself in one turn with Rest in the Rain it's becomes very difficult to get it down - something that was always one of Suicune's weaknesses, needing to spend time asleep after it recovered.

That's just the thing though. It only gets full Rest when it's in the rain, and when it's not it has to wait the two turn, like every other Pokemon. Due to major moveset syndrome here, you pretty much have to choose between three sets. You could always go something like Rain Dance/Rest/Tail Glow/Surf, but it's much easier to switch into.


Manaphy @ Damp Rock/Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Rain Dance
- Rest
- Ice Beam/Surf/Grass Knot
- Ice Beam/Surf/Grass Knot

While this Manaphy is an incredible bitch to take down, it in itself won't be taking down much. Pretty much a big improvement on R/S/E's bulky water.


Manaphy @ Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
Timid/Modest Nature
- Rest
- Tail Glow
- Ice Beam/Surf/Grass Knot
- Ice Beam/Surf/Grass Knot

This one requires help from another team member. And not just any help, a Rain Dancer.


Manaphy @ Damp Rock/Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
Bold/Timid Nature
- Tail Glow
- Subsitute
- Ice Beam/Surf/Grass Knot
- Ice Beam/Surf/Grass Knot

A nice self-dependant Manaphy. 101 Subs means a single S-Toss can't break it, which is nice. Almost like Jirachi from ADV, except with Wish and better resistances exchanged for a better stat raiser. I don't see how this set could be considered broken, though.

Additionally the Abomasnow point is pretty silly. How often do you see Abomasnow on competitive teams? Almost never, because like most pokemon that are part Ice type, it's has some pretty terrible weaknesses to common types, to go along with average stats all around on top of poor Speed. Abomasnow for the most part isn't really an OU-quality Pokemon, and is a great example of an effective, but highly overspecialized counter.

Abomasnow being a counter was just a random thing that popped into my mind, so I though I may's well have posted it, overspecialized or not. And yes, it's quite the UU material Pokemon, what with it's blah stats. But the metagame is currently developing at a snails pace, and Abomasnow+Mamoswine just might see the light of day in the future, maybe just to counter Manaphy with Mamoswine there just because it's pretty good AND likes hail all the while. IIRC Dugtrio didn't show its ugly little faces until awhile after FRLG started. While they ARE very different Pokemon, it could be the same case. Only time will tell.

Abomasnow sucks and I'll admit it was pretty random bringing it up =/

Having seen a few fairly effective Rain Dance teams and effective OU teams in general, I'm pretty sure a large part of the problems you faced in this team are likely to be the Pokemon used. The synergy here is average at best, and Toxicroak is really just not an OU quality Pokemon. While you were probably successful in spreading your Rain Dance Gimmick throughout the team, I would definitely say that it is a Gimmick rather than a Strategy based on what little you posted about the team - and it is a terrible way to try to justify Manaphy not being uber, which is nearly irrelevant to the point about your team, especially considering Manaphy itself was a Rain Dancer, which it can do on nearly any team that isn't trying to whore Sandstream that it wants. I would definitely have let another Pokemon set Rain Dance up to free up the moveslot on Manaphy regardless, but that's just me...

Toxicroak is a Fighting type, which obviously means it has quite a bit of competition in OU, but it does have its pros that make it desirable. First off, it has a Water Absorb-like trait that only gets better in the rain. He can also kill Psychics with Sucker Punch, or if they decide to switch, with Pursuit. A pretty odd, if not effective, Pokemon. Though I do realize that it might not have very good synergy with the rest of the team, there isn't much else that would, that also wouldn't hate the rain.

What is a more important point, however, is that while Empoleon counters Specsmence, basic prediction does a plenty fine job of dealing with Specsmence, who frankly is an extremely overrated threat, especially considering the fact that it really doesn't do much damage to the standard Blissey at all.

Doesn't it do about 40% with Draco Meteor? I don't know, but 40% isn't really something to laugh at, even if it does have to switch out immediately after.

I don't really think you're proving anything here by showing off your fault team creation - as mentioned in a previous post 'I think this team would obviously beat this team' is pretty silly logic, but you're right about Standard Pokemon having good synergy together being a better strategy than trying to use the Rain Dance gimmick along with Pokemon like Toxicroak. Manaphy, however, is plenty capable of existing on teams that are not based exclusively around Rain Dance, and teams that are based around Rain Dance are perfectly capable of not including Pokemon that really have no place in OU.

The last point that was brought up was how you could just have another Pokemon set up the Rain for Manaphy, preferably on a Rain Dance team. I didn't just post the two teams for the simple logic of "team with Manaphy can lose to team without Manaphy", but instead to show that a Rain Dance team is not all that great, especially a quick build like mine. Why? Because things always sound better when in theory. When you have everything written down, teams tend to look less appealing then they sounded in your head. That's how it is for me, at least.

 

[MegaBuddha]

I've been playing with my Manaphy all day trying to enjoy it before it gets the B& hammer.
And it doesn't seem over powered at all ;_;...
So if people want to ban it for Tail glow, you're in the wrong. After Tail Glow, Surf is a 3HKO on Blissey.

So after you add in lefties + softboiled =BLISSEY LIVES.
And even after I Tail Glow's another time, Surf doesn't 1HKO.

 

[nomargu46]

Manaphy @ Damp Rock/Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
Bold/Timid Nature
- Tail Glow
- Subsitute
- Ice Beam/Surf/Grass Knot
- Ice Beam/Surf/Grass Knot

This is just a personal preference, but I would reccommend against using Damp Rock on this Manaphy set.

its not that any single set is absolute domination from Manaphy that makes it Borderline-Uber, its more that Manaphy is a huge team player who can come at an opponent from a bunch of different angles (heck, its got 100-base attack, maybe.... naaah). Manaphy is a pimp, and pimps dont need to be used on Rain Dance gimmick teams just to get used effectively. I mean, just look at me.

 

[alex]

I've been playing with my Manaphy all day trying to enjoy it before it gets the B& hammer.
And it doesn't seem over powered at all ;_;...
So if people want to ban it for Tail glow, you're in the wrong. After Tail Glow, Surf is a 3HKO on Blissey.

So after you add in lefties + softboiled =BLISSEY LIVES.
And even after I Tail Glow's another time, Surf doesn't 1HKO.

Are you serious? One of the, what, two pokemon that counter Manaphy doesn't lose to it?

Please think a bit more before posting stuff like this. It's exactly what Synre was talking about earlier in the thread.

 

[Firestorm]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the metagame develop by having huge threats, counters for said huge threats, and then counters for counters of said huge threats? Just because the current OU Pokemon can't counter Manaphy well and you need BL Pokemon who can counter Manaphy isn't a reason to ban Manaphy. The BL Pokemon for the most part can do more than just counter Manaphy.

Sure my opinion means nothing here, but nothing should be banned from any game until tested. Items weren't banned in competitive smash until tested after all.

 

[Familiar Trainer]

This is just a personal preference, but I would reccommend against using Damp Rock on this Manaphy set.

its not that any single set is absolute domination from Manaphy that makes it Borderline-Uber, its more that Manaphy is a huge team player who can come at an opponent from a bunch of different angles (heck, its got 100-base attack, maybe.... naaah). Manaphy is a pimp, and pimps dont need to be used on Rain Dance gimmick teams just to get used effectively. I mean, just look at me.

Such are the joys of copy and pasting x) With Damp Rock though, trickers would get a nice little surprise!!

CB Waterfall could be a nice surprise set, but Manaphy definitely has nowhere near as many options as Pokemon such as Gengar or Salamence do. Only the bulky water set set seems like a team player set, everything else is more like greedy businessman set (requiring other Pokemon to set up for it? Yeah right).

 

[Synre]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the metagame develop by having huge threats, counters for said huge threats, and then counters for counters of said huge threats? Just because the current OU Pokemon can't counter Manaphy well and you need BL Pokemon who can counter Manaphy isn't a reason to ban Manaphy. The BL Pokemon for the most part can do more than just counter Manaphy.

Sort of. The problem lies in that when adding a Pokemon to the OU game over centralizes the metagame. To some extent every team will always focus on one or a few threats more than the others, because they are the most dangerous forces allowed in the given metagame. However, when the addition of one Pokemon causes Pokemon that would otherwise never be used to become incredibly used in spite of the fact they aren't useful against most other OU Pokemon, there's a problem.

I'm not necessarily saying that's the case here, but the reasoning of the above post is only partially valid.

I think a better way to explain what I mean would be this. A while ago, a handful of morons wanted to unban Ho-oh because it was 4x weak to Rock, in spite of its stats as well as the now-Physical Sacred Fire, in addition to the rest of it's spectacular movepool. If for some reason this had been allowed, the most effective teams would focus almost exclusively on countering Ho-oh, and on using it themselves. When the metagame is almost exclusively centered around countering one Pokemon, obviously that Pokemon doesn't belong there.

It's not as easy with Manaphy and the other Pokemon at that silly 100 all around tier. The line is much more blurred; it's grayer than black and white. The effect they can potentially have isn't nearly as great as that of some of the most powerful ubers (Mewtwo, Rayquaza, etc). It's really hard to examine just how much of a difference Manaphy and friends will make, and if that difference is too much. That's the trouble we're faced with here; we're working with something that is suited more for opinion than fact in making the banlist. We'll certainly never get to the point where everyone agrees on what is and isn't uber for that reason, we just need to try to create the most agreeable and balanced ruleset we can.

 

[Firestorm]

Well, I agree on Ho-oh. Sacred Fire Ho-oh is retardedly good, rock weakness or not. And the fact that Manaphy isn't as clear-cut uber as Mewtwo, Rayquaza, etc. (which I'm sure Nintendo made to be rigged) is why I believe all this discussion about banning is a bit early. I mean, there hasn't been one real competitive D/P tournament yet. The one in a week or whenever is the first as far as I know. You need a large pool of competitive players to accurately test these things. I do like how Wobbuffet and everything isn't banned.

 

[MegaBuddha]

Whatever. I don't see how this is any worse than things like SpecsMence, ect. That are only beat by 1% of pokemon. If manaphy goes down, tons of pokemon need to go with it.

 

[pervysenin]

Too many posts to read them all, but basically manaphy is uber because it can hydro rest. So why not just ban that manaphy set? Tail glow manaphys no more deadly then nasty plot azelf.