Counter This Pokemon [OLD VERSION]

[kd24]

Ampharos @ Leftovers
Trait: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Volt Switch
- Toxic
- Heal Bell
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Damage Calcs

U-Turn: 212 Atk vs 187 Def & 384 HP (70 Base Power): 57 - 68 (14.84% - 17.71%)
- 30% Static chance

Focus Blast: 478 Atk vs 306 Def & 384 HP (120 Base Power): 135 - 159 (35.16% - 41.41%)

Hurricane: 478 Atk vs 306 Def & 384 HP (120 Base Power): 101 - 119 (26.30% - 30.99%)

Ampharos the cutest makes a nifty Tornadus and Thundurus check combined which Zapdos doesn't do well. With Heal Bell, they can't even rely on using Toxic vs Ampharos to wear it down. Most of the time you're only using Toxic and Heal Bell but it's perfectly acceptable to start spamming Volt Switch when needed. HP Fire is for Ferrothorn.

Give it Wish support and you have a Pokemon that fares very well vs Rain teams. If you want, you can invest more physically because you're still taking hits very well even if you lose some Special Defense.

 

[alexwolf]

Rotom-W @ Leftovers

evs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
nature: Calm
ability: Levitate
- Thunder / Tbolt
- Hydro Pump
- Pain Split
- T-Wave / WoW

This Rotom-W is only 3-4hkoed after SR (3hkoed 35% of the time) and 4hkoed without it by Hurricane. It also avoids the 2hko from FB if SR is not up, and gets 2hkoed from FB if SR is up only 1.2% of the time (0.6% if you factor FB's accuracy), so it is a pretty damn good counter. Thunder ohkoes Tornadus without SR, and Tbolt after SR, Hydro Pump is standard STAB move that hits very hard even with no investment, Pain Split for recovery, and last goes you status move of choice. It can also check some other pretty nasty threats such as CM Keldeo, Specs Politoed, LO Starmie and more, while still having very respectable offensive presence with 2 amazing STABs of 120 BP each.

 

[Superpowerdude]

Jolteon @choice specs
Timid|4 Hp / 252 spA / 252 Spe
Hp ice|Thunder|Volt Switch|Shadow ball

Jolteon is base 130 speed meaning he will always outspeed Tornadus-T and can Ko with Thunder in rain even if rain isnt up Volt Switch still may Ko I dont need calcs to tell you guys Jolteon is a definate Tornadus -T counter but I will post calcs Honkos damage calc said that Volt Swith and Thunder are both definate Ko`s with Volt Switch makinf you able to send in another pokemon thanks for the link NixHex!

 

[Nix_Hex]

Honko's is my favorite. I'll put the link in the OP since being able to calc is pretty key to this exercise.

 

[alexwolf]

Jolteon @choice specs
Timid|4 Hp / 252 spA / 252 Spe
Hp ice|Thunder|Volt Switch|Shadow ball

Jolteon is base 130 speed meaning he will always outspeed Tornadus-T and can Ko with Thunder in rain even if rain isnt up Volt Switch still may Ko I dont need calcs to tell you guys Jolteon is a definate Tornadus -T counter but I will post calcs Honkos damage calc said that Volt Swith and Thunder are both definate Ko`s with Volt Switch makinf you able to send in another pokemon thanks for the link NixHex!

Jolteon is in no way a counter to Tornadus-T, but a good check. If Tornadus-T U-turns out the first time, then the next time that Jolteon comes in, it gets ohkoed by FB, even without SR.

Here are the calcs: U-turn: 25.46 - 30.25%, Focus Blast: 72.79 - 86.02%

 

[EonX]

Think you calc'd Modest alex and the set we're countering is Timid. Doesn't change much as Jolteon is still more of a check than a counter, but you'll still need SR to ensure the KO with Focus Blast on the next switch-in.

Focus Blast: 66.91% - 79.04% (Timid nature)

Either that, or the damage calc I'm using isn't accurate.

 

[alexwolf]

I am using Honko's calculator, and a Timid nature, so i don't think that i made any mistake.

 

[Griff]

I really dk anything who does it better than Rachi. Unlike Ampharos Rachi can probably do other things for your team.

 

[Skore]

I really dk anything who does it better than Rachi. Unlike Ampharos Rachi can probably do other things for your team.

Blissey at least has other applications as not every mon on your team needs to be a powerhouse sweeper.

 

[G-Von]

who's next?!

 

[Nix_Hex]

Great job in countering Tornadus-T! I am pleased at the results and hope that we can see more of your guys wisdom and insight for our next threat.

Thundurus-T @ Life Orb

Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest
- Agility
- Thunder
- Hidden Power Ice
- Focus Blast

Alongside our previous threat, BW2 introduced an absolute monster in Thundurus-T. With great mixed attacking stats including a Special Attack matching that of Chandelure (and much better Speed) and great coverage in three moves, Thundurus-T has all the firepower it needs to dismantle most Pokemon. Unfortunately for it, Base 101 Speed is not what it used to be, but this set runs Agility to make it faster than every unboosted Pokemon in the game, while allowing it to perform a different a different role than with a Choice Scarf. There are a couple of noteworthy checks so I'd like to see if you can match them... and introduce your own! Good luck!

 

[doughboy]

Quagsire (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Recover

Quagsire is perhaps the best Thunderus-T counter in the game. With the BW move tutors Quagsire got his long lost move Ice Punch back with Unaware. Quagsire can switch in on to Thunder and HP Ice with ease. While Focus Blast can do a large amount of damage with Focus Blast, that isn't until he is threatened out by Ice Punch or proceeds for Quagsire to fish for a miss. Thunderus-T has a 50-50 chance of hitting both Focus Blasts in a row and if Quagsire switches in on one, Thunderus has to make sure it gets a high damage roll because of lefties.

It isn't too specialized since Curse Quagsire makes an excellent check to boosting sweepers, like Volcarona, and is actually a very nice bulky sweeper with good coverage.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I am lame and am going to throw out a complete counter:

Chansey @ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Def / 140 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Softboiled
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Seismic Toss

Bitches don't know about my Chansey:

(30.74 - 36.41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah Chansey owns this thing, use toxic, maybe seismic toss a few times, and softboiled off any damage. And while your at it, set up rocks for the whole family.

 

[Skore]

I am lame and am going to throw out a complete counter:

Chansey @ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Def / 140 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Softboiled
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Seismic Toss

Bitches don't know about my Chansey:

(30.74 - 36.41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah Chansey owns this thing, use toxic, maybe siesmic toss a few times, and softboiled off any damage. And while your at it, set up rocks for the whole family.

Yup, I was about to toss the Blissey set I mentioned to counter Torandus-T into the mix but her younger sister Chansey counters it in the same way and for the same reasons.

 

[Not Jacky]

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam / Scald
- Toxic
- Recover

Survives 2 Focus Blasts after SR (to be exact, 38.73% - 45.77%), so it can safely switch in and Recover. Gastrodon stalls it out with Toxic and LO recoil. It has general metagame utility as well as it counters rain and stops Volt Switch.

 

[Skore]

Electivire @ Choice Band

Ability: Motor Drive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Att / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
- Ice Punch
- Wild Charge
- Fire Punch
- Low Kick

Electivire can come in on an Electric move, grab a Motor Drive boost and KO with Ice Punch. Even if Thundurus-T has used Agility and outspeeds Electivire, Focus Blast will not KO Electivire barring a crit:

252SpAtk Life Orb Thundurus Therian (+SAtk) Focus Blast vs 4HP/0SpDef Motor Drive Electivire (Neutral): 79% - 93% (231 - 273 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Choice Band Electivire (Neutral) Ice Punch vs 4HP/0Def Volt Absorb Thundurus Therian (Neutral): 105% - 124% (316 - 374 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

 

[doughboy]

Electivire @ Choice Band

Ability: Motor Drive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Att / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
- Ice Punch
- Wild Charge
- Fire Punch
- Low Kick

Electivire can come in on an Electric move, grab a Motor Drive boost and KO with Ice Punch. Even if Thundurus-T has used Agility and outspeeds Electivire, Focus Blast will not KO Electivire barring a crit:

252SpAtk Life Orb Thundurus Therian (+SAtk) Focus Blast vs 4HP/0SpDef Motor Drive Electivire (Neutral): 79% - 93% (231 - 273 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Choice Band Electivire (Neutral) Ice Punch vs 4HP/0Def Volt Absorb Thundurus Therian (Neutral): 105% - 124% (316 - 374 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

That's terrible. Having your Poke nearly 1HKO'ed by the poke in question isn't a counter. If the opponent does predict and use Focus Blast: 1. He can follow up with an HP Ice to kill you 2. Lay down SR to kill you if he fears scarf. It also means you have to play super carefully with Electivire because even lol Rapid Spin could kill it. This isn't considering HP Ice either which is a 2HKO after SR or the opponent has a 50% chance to 2HKO without it.

Basically you have to pray your opponent uses Thunder, which any ground type could do. Sp. Def Hippodown and Jolteon one up Evire since Hippo can take away the rain while the other can switch in on HP Ice (still takes a chunk of damage) and Thunder to outspeed and KO (as opposed to exclusively Thunder).

Also Evire is terribad in OU

edit: to the guy below. From experience it definitely does not do 30-36% since that is min of how much a Timid Heatran does with HP Ice. Its going to be doing like 50-60% lol

 

[Electrolyte]

Latias @ leftovers
Timid Nature
252 HP, 4 Sp Atk, 252 Spe
~Calm Mind
~Dragon Pulse
~Recover
~Substitute/HP fire
The best thing Thundy can do is HP Ice, which does around 37-43%. Latias can respond with a calm mind and then a substitute, and once at +3 she can OHKO back with Dragon Pulse. She can use substitute to avoid status from Thunder. She isn't even very afraid of NP as long as she catches Thundy without a boost, as now she outspeeds him by 9 base points.

 

[EonX]

Finally, the set I've been using so much on this thing. Agility is honestly Thundurus-T's best set. Allows it to run Modest nature with Life Orb and Agility gives it the Speed it needs to run through stuff. Anyway, here's how I tend to deal with it:

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 108 HP / 148 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Psyshock
- Recover

Hate reusing a set, but I guess that's just how good this Latias set is. Besides, people already used the more common stuff (Chansey, Quagsire, Gastro. And I don't use Blissey, so....) Anyway, this is one of those occasions where Latias steps out of her role as an all-around Fighting type killer and goes after something else. This is one of the few occasions where you really do need Draco Meteor's immediate power, but unless Thundurus-T has already taken more than 4 turns of LO recoil, you're going to need that immediate power. Most of you know how the rest of this set works, so I'll just cut straight to the calcs:

252 SpAtk Modest LO Thundy-T HP Ice vs. 108 HP / 0 SpDef Latias: 57.93% - 67.68% (2HKO)

252 SpAtk Modest LO Thundy-T Focus Blast vs. 108 / 0 SpDef Latias: 24.7% - 28.96%

148 SpAtk Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpDef Thundy-T: 75.25% - 88.63% (guaranteed OHKO with SR or 3 turns of LO recoil)

Note that if you have a way to lure out a Focus Blast (Ferrothorn for example) then Latias can come in directly to counter. The reason that the Focus Blast calc is shown is to prove this fact. If you can keep the field SR-less, then Thundurus-T will be unable to KO Latias with HP Ice should Latias come in on Focus Blast, even if both hit at max damage. If luring a Focus Blast is not possible with your team, then Latias a very reliable check that can come in after a KO and keep Agility Thundurus-T's damage to a 1 for 1 situation.

 

[Woodchuck]

Heh, this takes me back to theorymonning Thundurus counters on IRC before it was banned.

Raikou @ Life Orb
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Shadow Ball
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Thundurus fails to OHKO Raikou with Focus Blast even after Stealth Rock:
Focus Blast: 201-238 (62.61 - 74.14%)

Now, I know all of you are saying "But that's a 2HKO!" But Raikou is faster than Thundurus, so it can still switch in under any situation (unless Thundurus somehow gets off a free agility while you do nothing...).

In return, Raikou almost always OHKOes Thundurus-T with Hidden Power Ice after Stealth Rock (and always KOes after one turn of LO recoil):
Hidden Power Ice: 221-260 (73.91 - 86.95%)

Besides, Raikou is an extraordinarily threatening 'mon in its own right, so it's definitely valuable on teams for roles outside of handling Thundurus.

Edit: I guess offensive Raikou isn't a 'true' counter because it needs Stealth Rock support to win. In that case, you can run a bulkier spread, like Calm 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe, which can switch into Thundurus-T, take a Focus Blast, and Calm Mind before a second Focus Blast, then going on to KO Thundurus with +1 HP Ice. In order to win this matchup, Thundurus literally needs max damage rolls on both Focus Blasts (and needs them both to hit, lol) so the chances of Thundurus-T coming out on top are very slim.

 

[Skore]

That's terrible. Having your Poke nearly 1HKO'ed by the poke in question isn't a counter. If the opponent does predict and use Focus Blast: 1. He can follow up with an HP Ice to kill you 2. Lay down SR to kill you if he fears scarf. It also means you have to play super carefully with Electivire because even lol Rapid Spin could kill it. This isn't considering HP Ice either which is a 2HKO after SR or the opponent has a 50% chance to 2HKO without it.

Basically you have to pray your opponent uses Thunder, which any ground type could do. Sp. Def Hippodown and Jolteon one up Evire since Hippo can take away the rain while the other can switch in on HP Ice (still takes a chunk of damage) and Thunder to outspeed and KO (as opposed to exclusively Thunder).

Also Evire is terribad in OU

It's an extreme example of risk/reward.

A much more mainstream example would be:

Mamoswine @ Choice Band
Trait: Thick Fat
move 1: Ice Shard
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Icicle Crash
move 4: Stone Edge
nature: Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Att / 252 Spe

Can come in on a predicted Electric or HP Ice (does only 29% max) and KO with Ice Shard. If Life Orb has kicked in once on Thundurus-T it's 100% chance to OHKO, if not it is:

252Atk Choice Band Mamoswine (+Atk) Ice Shard vs 4HP/0Def Volt Absorb Thundurus Therian (Neutral): 96% - 114% (288 - 342 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 77% chance to OHKO.

 

[Woodchuck]

Can come in on a predicted Electric or HP Ice (does only 29% max) and KO with Ice Shard

That's not countering. At the very least, a counter should be able to switch into all of the Pokemon in question's moves in order to qualify.

And as for Electivire "surviving" a Thundurus Focus Blast, can it even count when any amount of residual damage / an easy layer of Stealth Rock or Spikes will push Electivire into KO range?

Can we maybe establish some requirements for submitting a counter, such as:
To be considered a counter, a Pokemon must be able to switch into any of the Pokemon to be countered's moves under normal battle conditions (if it dies with Stealth Rock support, it shouldn't be considered a counter imo) and reliably KO the Pokemon to be countered before the counter is KOed itself.

 

[Nix_Hex]

I was going to put something like that in the OP when I started but I assumed people understood what it was. Also, in the old counter that poke threads, wasn't it assumed that Stealth Rock was always down? Makes it easier than saying "assuming Stealth Rock is up" for every Pokemon. I'll put your definition in the OP. Everyone must follow this rule from now on.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I have a question about that policy then, if stealth rocks are always considered on your side, how about for the other side? Thundurus-T should be at 75% right now. I think it is unfair if rocks is only ever against your favor.

 

[Electrolyte]

This is getting quite confusing, so I'll see if I can clear things up a bit.
What we are trying to do here is find reliable counters to take down opposing metagame threats. We should plan for the worst. That's why we should assume that there are rocks on our side and not on the opponents. We don't want a counter to rely on SR/other hazards to do its job. That's why there should be no hazards on the opposing side. We would also prefer to add hazards to our own side because we don't want a "counter" fail because of hazards. That wouldn't do. Who knows, the actual hazards ingame might bend in your favor, but it's best to prepare for the worst.
Hazards are a huge part of the metagame, and will drastically effect the urability of pokemon. For the sake of reliability, we should assume that there are SR on our side and none on the opponent's. That way, we are prepared for everything.