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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
Since allmost Gliscor are Toxic Orbed, bar few with Flying Gem+Acrobatics (and there is few reasons to use a Gliscor with Roost and/or SR because it is already legal with Poison Heal) Weezing cannot do almost nothing to Gliscor too, I haven't calculated how much damage takes from Flamethrower but it must be very pitiful, even lower than Poison's recovery.
In the role of spreading burn and useful resistances, the ugly washing machine Rotom-W does better because its higher Sp Def and useful STAB.
The main problem that Weezing suffers is its stats aren't very good for the power creep in OU, its STAB offensively is crappy and hits too weak, if its HP was higher...
A guy here mentioned Cofragigus, with its role, it has now Pain Split.
Next up in questionable N to UU pokemon: Claydol! I haven't tested it, but it sounds kinda promising on paper:
It has 60/105/120 defenses, and it's typing and ability mean that it doesn't take much from Terrakion, Tornadus, Tornadus-T and Thundurus. It also is immune to (Toxic) Spikes and resistent to Stealth Rock. It can do something in return too; Earthquake* and Ice Beam get great coverage together, and it can support the team with SR, Rapid Spin or screens. Plus, with it's 75 speed it doesn't need to invest much to outspeed 8 spd Heatran, which is the tier you want to hit. It also gets Trick Room, Trick, Gravity, Explosion, Calm Mind and Charge Beam.
Has anyone tried it? And if so, how does it do?
*It also gets Earth Power, but everything you want to hit with a ground move is physically weaker (Terrakion and Tyranitar in sandstorm and Heatran).
It has 60/105/120 defenses, and it's typing and ability mean that it doesn't take much from Terrakion, Tornadus, Tornadus-T and Thundurus. It also is immune to (Toxic) Spikes and resistent to Stealth Rock. It can do something in return too; Earthquake* and Ice Beam get great coverage together, and it can support the team with SR, Rapid Spin or screens. Plus, with it's 75 speed it doesn't need to invest much to outspeed 8 spd Heatran, which is the tier you want to hit. It also gets Trick Room, Trick, Gravity, Explosion, Calm Mind and Charge Beam.
Has anyone tried it? And if so, how does it do?
*It also gets Earth Power, but everything you want to hit with a ground move is physically weaker (Terrakion and Tyranitar in sandstorm and Heatran).
Grass Knot coming from Thundurus-t will have you for breakfast. There's also the risk of the being predicted as it is common knowledge to carry a Ground-type for competitive use, that guessing whether or not to Hidden Power [Ice] on the switch is going to cause concern for Claydol.
Hurricane from either Tornadus will have Claydol dreaming about a reliable recovery move because he cannot take U-turn all too well given the momentum is immediately switched into the opponents' hands.
Even Terrakion's X-scissor from a Choice Band attack is too much for Claydol to handle.
This metagame is largel centered around STAB and coverage moves, and Dark is part of some of the most devastating combinations of onslaught there is to offer. So in reality Claydol is destined to remain clear from the OU tier until we're glammered with an evolution in Gen 6!
Genesect's release date falls well for Smogon as a whole. By the time August is in motion, there's a gap large enough for us to consider the metagame's direction and how we would like to see it develop. Scizor will be wary of its usage when VolTurn gets another toy to play with; will he be replaced?
Hurricane from either Tornadus will have Claydol dreaming about a reliable recovery move because he cannot take U-turn all too well given the momentum is immediately switched into the opponents' hands.
Even Terrakion's X-scissor from a Choice Band attack is too much for Claydol to handle.
This metagame is largel centered around STAB and coverage moves, and Dark is part of some of the most devastating combinations of onslaught there is to offer. So in reality Claydol is destined to remain clear from the OU tier until we're glammered with an evolution in Gen 6!
Genesect's release date falls well for Smogon as a whole. By the time August is in motion, there's a gap large enough for us to consider the metagame's direction and how we would like to see it develop. Scizor will be wary of its usage when VolTurn gets another toy to play with; will he be replaced?
I really doubt it. A pokemon that's sat at #1 on the usage list for weeks has obviously got to have something more than just a place in a Volt-Turn core. Scizor is blessed with a great typing, above average stats, and an extensive movepool. With access to one of the strongest priority moves in the tier, CB Scizor has cemented itself as a top rank OU pokemon. With Pursuit and U-turn, it will never stop giving psychic types headaches as they predict/overpredict. Sure, it might be outclassed when it comes to U-turn, but it has many other tricks up its pincers.
The only thing stopping it would probably be a fire type priority introduced gen VI.
Genesect has the same great typing, better stats, and a great special movepool with 120 SpAtk to boot. It's faster and bulkier and can go mixed. I wouldn't call Scizor's movepool 'extensive'. It's more like 'adequate"
Scizor only really has Technician Bullet Punch over him. I could see Genesect taking over a lot of Scizor's territory, U-Turning being the most obvious. I'm doubting Scizor will be #1 come August.
Scizor only really has Technician Bullet Punch over him. I could see Genesect taking over a lot of Scizor's territory, U-Turning being the most obvious. I'm doubting Scizor will be #1 come August.
DW OU have been using it since forever. Would be interesting to get one of their views on it. Is it in danger of being Uber-ified or will it fit right into OU?
No way will it be uber. First off, sp def heatran is a hard counter. Bulkarona is also a great counter and can use genesect as set up bait. It's extremely annoying and you're likely to hate it more than scizor. The fact is, it can be countered/walled/checked by numerous pokemon. The catch is, u-turn. It's constantly switching and almost never in place; so taking it out is tricky. It's ability download, gives a power boost to one of it's coverage moves or u-turn, meaning some pokemon will randomly put 4 ev in sp def instead of hp to prevent genesect from getting +1 spa. It's also in an odd speed tier. So a decent scarfer with a fire move can OHKO. It's most common set is scarf, followed by: rock polish, life orb, and sash/expert belt. It has amazing coverage moves in flamethrower, thunder(bolt), and ice beam allowing it to make an excellent late game cleaner just like flygon in UU/DP. It's going to increase volt-turn which is a negative, but it's one of the best dedicated leads this gen has to offer; it's likely to increase the usage of HO and unfortunately deter stall even more... All on all genesect is a mixed bag of pros and cons that will undeniably NOT break the game, but will have a pretty big impact on the metagame just like the genies do now.
Genesect's got crazy good coverage, and unlike Scizor, it doesn't have a better move to "spam" than U-Turn. That being said, countering it will be harder since it has even more reason to abuse U-Turn than Scizor does (honestly, who doesn't see a Bullet Punch coming when Scizor is out against something like Terrakion or a Pursuit against Latios?) Will be interesting to see as Genesect has good coverage, but Scizor still has that all important priority and Pursuit that can bail you out of jams or keep things under control.
Okay, after finally reading all 33 pages, I noticed a lack of talk about one of the new best troll Pokemon: Skill Link Cinccino. The times I've used it in DW, I noticed that a neutral individual hit from rock blast or bullet seed tends to hit for 8 - 10 percent (40 - 50 percent total) and those two types have an interesting coverage that does score super effective hits on things like politoad, gyrados, lanturn, keldeo, tornadus and thundarus. On top of that, it has a base 115 speed, which makes it naturally faster than Thundarus-T, but not Tornadus-T.
Unfortunately it does not have much of Anything to cover steels (unless wake-up slap works well) and it has paper defenses and a base 95 attack, so SE hits are the only way it can get a 1HKO. That said, kings rock does have the side-effect of making flinch incredibly common, hence the troll part.
Unfortunately it does not have much of Anything to cover steels (unless wake-up slap works well) and it has paper defenses and a base 95 attack, so SE hits are the only way it can get a 1HKO. That said, kings rock does have the side-effect of making flinch incredibly common, hence the troll part.
I had completely forgotten about Genesect's Download, which gives it amazing mixed offensive prowess. No other Pokemon can abuse Download like that.
With an Attack boost, Genesect's U-Turns will rival Scizor's in power, and unlike Scizor, his U-Turns will be coming in at a trollish 99 base Speed. (:p Hydreigon)
I'd argue that the utility of Scizor's CB U-Turn is his greatest asset, as CB Bullet Punch is generally too risky with Magnezone around. I think this niche will be usurped by Genesect. It's superior to Scizor in many ways. Lucky for Scizor, it doesn't get Superpower, but it's not that much of a loss.
With an Attack boost, Genesect's U-Turns will rival Scizor's in power, and unlike Scizor, his U-Turns will be coming in at a trollish 99 base Speed. (:p Hydreigon)
I'd argue that the utility of Scizor's CB U-Turn is his greatest asset, as CB Bullet Punch is generally too risky with Magnezone around. I think this niche will be usurped by Genesect. It's superior to Scizor in many ways. Lucky for Scizor, it doesn't get Superpower, but it's not that much of a loss.
Scizor is a little under 5% behind Genesect in DW OU usage, where they are #3 and #11 in usage respectively. Not sure if DW OU is an accurate metric for how Genesect will perform in OU, but DW has been pretty accurate in the past, predicting such things as Magic Guard Alakazam's jump to OU. I doubt it would be so unmanageable as to be made uber.
That's a good point. I was only really thinking of the choiced sets. Reliable recovery is strong point in Scizor's favor as Genesect's best option for recovery is Giga Drain (Rest-Talking doesn't seem viable to me), and Genesect's only offense boosting move is Hone Claws, though Download helps it a lot.
Of course Scizor won't be replaced totally or go to UU; heck I doubt it will drop out of the top 10. But I could see Genesect overtaking it in usage. I'm sure that Genesect will be at the top of OU once the ball gets rolling.
Of course Scizor won't be replaced totally or go to UU; heck I doubt it will drop out of the top 10. But I could see Genesect overtaking it in usage. I'm sure that Genesect will be at the top of OU once the ball gets rolling.
Yeah, one of the first things I've noticed is Genesects just too little speed. That's really goong to hinder it, as many of the fairies with base 100 speed already carry HP fire for scizor.
Of course Genesect is going to affect Scizor usage a LOT. You can point out the differences between them (Bullet Punch, Swords Dance, Roost, vs massive special attacking capacity with Download and better bulk), but they don't matter when at the end of the day Genesect simply does everything Scizor does except better. The only real difference is at revenge killing stuff like DD Mence - of course Scizor has other big advantages, such as being able to destroy Blissey and Ferro (in rain esp), and finally he can run SD, but Genesect can run Sub and Rock Polish sets too.
The biggest threats where we fall back on priority to deal with them, before they go sweeping through our entire teams, are covered elsewhere by other users wielding priority attacks. Mamoswine deals with the Dragonites/Thundurus-t and Breloom handles the likes of Terrakion.
What brought Scizor to the dance was Swords Dance and Bullet Punch could manhandle teams unprepared, or Bullet Punch/Uturn coming from a CBScizor had you left with two options: suffer momentum loss from switching and taking U-turn, or stay in and be revenge killed by Bullet Punch.
Genesect oozes talent with Download: now you can rely on STAB U-turn and a potential Download boost in Attack, which then urges your opponent to consider switching out. At the same time, Genesect's elemential blasts are unpredictable given that Genesect can hit most teams for neutral damage at the very least. This is a bigger indication as to whether the switch is occuring the following turn, loosening the tention between which move to select.
Focus Sash Genesect had trouble with Heatran, but in DW I had success with Genesect due to Heatran's lack of presense. Tyranitar switching into Tbolt/IBeam/FThrower was unfortunate but there always seemed to be a OHKO in sight if I stayed in.
I know I'm looking forward to this release!
What brought Scizor to the dance was Swords Dance and Bullet Punch could manhandle teams unprepared, or Bullet Punch/Uturn coming from a CBScizor had you left with two options: suffer momentum loss from switching and taking U-turn, or stay in and be revenge killed by Bullet Punch.
Genesect oozes talent with Download: now you can rely on STAB U-turn and a potential Download boost in Attack, which then urges your opponent to consider switching out. At the same time, Genesect's elemential blasts are unpredictable given that Genesect can hit most teams for neutral damage at the very least. This is a bigger indication as to whether the switch is occuring the following turn, loosening the tention between which move to select.
Focus Sash Genesect had trouble with Heatran, but in DW I had success with Genesect due to Heatran's lack of presense. Tyranitar switching into Tbolt/IBeam/FThrower was unfortunate but there always seemed to be a OHKO in sight if I stayed in.
I know I'm looking forward to this release!
The coolest poke to be introduced in a long time... awesome.
I have not played DW since BW's release but I remember running a team that used both the metal bugs in a rain based team. I don't know how effective this would be now but it was pretty difficult to counter both of the bastards spamming boosted U-turns, along with the fact that one could also run a boosting set while the other still gave you the full power of a boosted U-turn. Fun times.
I have not played DW since BW's release but I remember running a team that used both the metal bugs in a rain based team. I don't know how effective this would be now but it was pretty difficult to counter both of the bastards spamming boosted U-turns, along with the fact that one could also run a boosting set while the other still gave you the full power of a boosted U-turn. Fun times.
Elemental drives suck, What is the point to have a move with 85 power special normal with an item which converts it to Electric/Ice/Fire/Water when Genesect already has Ice Beam Thunderbolt and Flamethrower (and HP Water) without holding its item?
Even these drives change Genesect's colour back sprite. There shouldn't be used in any cases. The worst and the most absourdest thing in the game after Keldeo-R.
One's a special attacker with Download. One's a physical revege/scouter with technician priority. Genesect cannot do "everything" scizor does; U-turn? How about Pursuit? And a *priority move*? You're forgetting what scizor is used for.
I'm pretty sure he meant Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Flamethrower. He just didn't want to type it out lol.
Not an attacker? What the hell does he do with his 394 attack then? I've had half my team swept by this "non" attacker. Choice Banded Bullet Punch spells doom for a ton of things, and that's not even talking about his Swords Dance set. Scizor is all ABOUT attacking. Whether it's revenging, starting a sweep, checking, Volt-turning, etc. Almost all of his sets are offensive in nature.
If that's your story, I'd like to mention next time including a beginning and middle and not just having an end.
Genesect outclasses scizor as a volturn(er). It has better speed and much better coverage. Scizor is used a lot for volturn. Once that niche is taken away scizor WILL fall in usage. It will remain in ou, no doubt, But it's going to be less common. Once genesect is out, scizor will never be in top 5 again. That's pretty much a given. Genesect also has a better place on rain teams as it can abuse it better than scizor because of 100% accurate thunder, and it can even get past jellicent, one of scizor's counters.