Maybe you should read the thread to see why it's much better than Azelf?
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Manaphy uber?
- Thread starter Amy
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Maybe you should read the thread to see why it's much better than Azelf?
If your definition of an uber or pokemon that deserves banning is that it centralizes the metagame then pray tell how does specsmence being walled by one pokemon not centralize it? With specsmence running rampant you are basically forced to either use blissey or be prepared to lose a minimum of one pokemon every game to it. I know blissey is the special wall and she would be on many teams without specsmence (in opposition to say ludicolo or abomwhatever who would be basically wasted team slots if your opponent did not use manaphy). I just find it somewhat odd that you don't see specsmence as over metagame centralizing. He is on at least 60% of the teams I play against. Draco meteor was a mistake.
One key difference here is that, even if Blissey WAS the only counter (hint: it isn't), Blissey is already used for the purpose of Special walling. Abomasnow? Completely overspecialized. Ludicolo? Not so much, perhaps, but with the EV spread you'd need to use to counter Manaphy it probably is. Blissey countering SpecsMence, on the other hand, is just doing to Salamence what you already have it there to do to many other heavy Special attackers: wall the shit out of it. You don't need a specific, otherwise crappy moveset or a completely skewed, off-the-wall EV spread for Blissey to counter SpecsMence.
Blissey and Empoleon are hard counters to SpecsMence and Cresselia is pretty good in its own right if you're packing Ice Beam on it. Weavile will always prevent it sweeping. Heatran is weak only to its tertiary attack and thus makes a strong but not flawless switch-in. The very nature of it being Choice makes it a guessing game in the first place as to whether you're going to deal any significant damage or not. Salamence still has its debilitating 4x Ice weakness, plus the Rock weakness (25% from SR too? Eww.).
Please stop failing to compare it to other powerful pokemon.
Blissey and Empoleon are hard counters to SpecsMence and Cresselia is pretty good in its own right if you're packing Ice Beam on it. Weavile will always prevent it sweeping. Heatran is weak only to its tertiary attack and thus makes a strong but not flawless switch-in. The very nature of it being Choice makes it a guessing game in the first place as to whether you're going to deal any significant damage or not. Salamence still has its debilitating 4x Ice weakness, plus the Rock weakness (25% from SR too? Eww.).
Please stop failing to compare it to other powerful pokemon.
Yet we just had 15 posts of garchomp vs. manaphy. And thank you for answering what I already typed into my post Mr. E. I was more stating that specsmence is so omnipresent that it is pretty much "metagame centralizing". If not why do I see 15 of them for every manaphy I see? Additionally the manaphy requires (or at least works best) with at least 2-3 other pokemon centralized on using rain to their advantage, specsmence just is.
Oh and besides blissey what can switch into meteor that is choice spec'd and take less than 50% damage? How is this not as good or better than tail glow or garchomp when those pokemon require a turn to stat boost?
Oh and besides blissey what can switch into meteor that is choice spec'd and take less than 50% damage? How is this not as good or better than tail glow or garchomp when those pokemon require a turn to stat boost?
Because you're locked into an attack that's gonna do a lot less than 50% now. The two stage Special Attack drop pretty much forces a switch no matter what. If a Manaphy is allowed to Tail Glow or a Garchomp allowed to SD/DD, it's not stopping until it's dead or walled. A Specsmence who's locked into Draco Meteor has to stop after 1 or 2 attacks.
Add in the Rain/Rest combo, mainly in the form of outside rain support, and you're looking at a Manaphy who's not only amazingly powerful offensively, but can take the hits and heal it all off. I will admit that Manaphy does suffer from a lack of moveslots, but that doesn't change the fact that he can still be amazingly good. Probably too good for OU. He might not be the best Poke to use in the Uber environment, but he shouldn't be in OU, IMO.
CM Cresselia/ Light Screen Cresselia stands up to Manaphy pretty well. After a tail glow surf only does around 52% damage to calm full hp/96 SpDef Cressela, falling just short of the 2HKO, and then Cresselia can Moonlight back up. And to make it more of a counter, can light screen or Calm Mind. Plus most Cresselia carry Charge beam, so in conclusion, Cresselia can take on Manaphy decentley too.
I'm really wondering why people are making such a big deal about this...
I'm really wondering why people are making such a big deal about this...
So you bash anything in the game but blissey for 50% plus and then........switch into a counter for whatever was switched in on meteor (something that isn't going to be able to hurt you because blissey and cresselia have amazingly predictable movesets and switch to any physical attacker forces immediate blissey switch again). SD'ed dragon claw is easily survivable by many things because it has a sane bp. A 140 bp attack with STAB (optional specs) that is resisted by one type is a bit much no?
And again any combo is infinitely more difficult to pull off than getting salamence in. It is going to become quickly apparent what you are doing when one of your pokemon uses rain dance so getting that manaphy in isn't going to be so easy if they switch in a counter when rain starts. And if you carry rain dance on the actual manaphy along with tail glow you now have one attack moveslot, and your stab move is completely absorbed by vaporeon.
The point here is every random pokemon has a counter and the viability of these pokemon outside of that counter usage is variable. I just find specsmence far to common lately.
And again any combo is infinitely more difficult to pull off than getting salamence in. It is going to become quickly apparent what you are doing when one of your pokemon uses rain dance so getting that manaphy in isn't going to be so easy if they switch in a counter when rain starts. And if you carry rain dance on the actual manaphy along with tail glow you now have one attack moveslot, and your stab move is completely absorbed by vaporeon.
The point here is every random pokemon has a counter and the viability of these pokemon outside of that counter usage is variable. I just find specsmence far to common lately.
What pokemon, without specifically gearing itself FOR Manaphy, can safely switch into Manaphy and pose a direct, immediate threat?
Vaporeon could if he carried a good Hidden Power Grass/Electric, and Ludicolo has a decent chance I guess, but they need to be geared much more specifically to counter Manaphy.
People don't carry Blissey to counter Specsmence specifically, they carry Blissey to counter/wall special attacks in general. I'd rather not have to carry a Vappy or a Ludicolo just because I know that Manaphy is lurking around the corner.
Vaporeon could if he carried a good Hidden Power Grass/Electric, and Ludicolo has a decent chance I guess, but they need to be geared much more specifically to counter Manaphy.
People don't carry Blissey to counter Specsmence specifically, they carry Blissey to counter/wall special attacks in general. I'd rather not have to carry a Vappy or a Ludicolo just because I know that Manaphy is lurking around the corner.
Leafeon might be able to take down Surf/Energy Ball variants.
Agreed, although Ludicolo is carried specifically to wall and kill bulky waters. It is a waste of a slot on your team when you have to carry something that counters only one specific pokemon
It can also Leech Seed, which counts for something in a metagame of little to no Wishers/other Leech Seeders. when it comes right down to it, very few Pokemon are a complete waste of a moveslot on teams. Celebi may outshine Ludicolo in most things for example, but it doesn't when it comes to counter Manaphy. Same can be said with some other Pokemon.
Also, I use Blissey JUST to counter SpecsMence usually. Every other SpAtker I can deal with fairly easy, as I usually have a fairly safe switch in. The same cannot be said for the metagame menace though. Not with it's Draco Meteor and other SpAtk's backing it up.
Another point in the specsmence debate that has taken over. Suppose they start with salamence, and you have something it is going to ohko with draco meteor, (ie, about 95% of the pokes in the game) so you switch out to your blissey, but lo and behold it wasn't a specs mence. It was a choice banded salamence and it just hurt the crap out of blissey, who is supposedly the main counter. Pretty sure manaphy isn't doing that.
Can This set substitute the use of Rain Rest?
Manaphy
Shell Bell
252 HP, 252 Defense, 4 Special Attack
Bold Nature
Surf
Tail Glow
Ice Beam
Grass Knot
Power up, heal off your item. You will easily build up your Special Attack. Max HP and Defense so you can survive while Tail Glowing.
Tail Glow cancels out the effects of a Pokemon resistant to your attacks, (and 2 Tail Glows if your opponent is 4x Resistant).
Modify the Evs if you wish, but I think this set covers alot.
Manaphy
Shell Bell
252 HP, 252 Defense, 4 Special Attack
Bold Nature
Surf
Tail Glow
Ice Beam
Grass Knot
Power up, heal off your item. You will easily build up your Special Attack. Max HP and Defense so you can survive while Tail Glowing.
Tail Glow cancels out the effects of a Pokemon resistant to your attacks, (and 2 Tail Glows if your opponent is 4x Resistant).
Modify the Evs if you wish, but I think this set covers alot.
I'd like to point out that bonuses are additive.
Yes, the first tail glow will raise your Special Attack to 200% of its original value.
But the second one will not raise it to 400% - It will raise it to 300%
To get a net value of 400% of the original stat you would need a +6 bonus, or 3 Tail Glows.
Cresselia has no more business trying to Calm Mind than Blissey, Moonlight is boned by rain if Manaphy has weather support, and Charge Beam doesn't even 2HKO GYARADOS without the first-hit SpA boost let alone Manaphy.
And who takes under 50% from Specs Draco Meteor? Some Cresselia EV spreads plus all Steel pokemon. Yes, Meteor is extremely powerful, but the Special drop and the fact you can't switch moves is exactly why SpecsMence is mostly hit-and-run. It's dangerous when it comes out, but no more than any other Choice user (umm yeah, that's what makes the items balanced; can't switch moves!) and it won't often flat-out sweep anybody. And yeah, we know, Salamence is versatile. Your Blissey isn't dying from one hit on the first turn anyway.
Manaphy does not require Rain Dance support to be every bit as powerful as Salamence and friends. Rain Dance just helps make him overpowered.
To be fair, Ludicolo is fairly usable, though you kinda have to skew your EVs into HP and SpD more than you normally would so it can handle Manaphy. That said, he's still wore down easily after just one, maybe two, switch-ins.
If Manaphy has Rest then Cresselia will have no problem taking him on, after some Charge Beams her Special Attack will be high enough to KO him, and then you face a formidable tank with enough sp. atk to 2HKO your next Pokemon.
Salamence of course won't be around for much time, but hey, each time he's in (and he has the defenses to switch into things) you must eat a Draco Meteor coming from 110 base sp. atk and is resisted by only one type (which almost always is poor on sp. defense and has the risk of being OHKOed by Flamethrower).
There's also no Pokemon that can switch into Salamence without taking (a lot of) damage and pose an immediate threat. You'll take the damage, then your opponent will just switch out.
What I'm trying to say is that isn't only Manaphy that haven't a 100% counter, and this alone isn't reason enough to ban him.
Salamence of course won't be around for much time, but hey, each time he's in (and he has the defenses to switch into things) you must eat a Draco Meteor coming from 110 base sp. atk and is resisted by only one type (which almost always is poor on sp. defense and has the risk of being OHKOed by Flamethrower).
There's also no Pokemon that can switch into Salamence without taking (a lot of) damage and pose an immediate threat. You'll take the damage, then your opponent will just switch out.
What I'm trying to say is that isn't only Manaphy that haven't a 100% counter, and this alone isn't reason enough to ban him.
Here you say that Ludicolo is worn down by switch-ins, but so is Manaphy. Tail Glow sets also have no form of recovery and find it hard pressed to find a time that they can switch in where they don't take alot of damage from something, they then have to Tail Glow to be sweep effectively, and by that time the opponent has switched to something that can take on Manaphy regardless as to if it something faster that poses a threat or something that can take the TG hit and still pose some form of a threat, Manaphy is best setting up only late game , and what sweeper isnt? Imo Manaphy is being overrated in this thread
Again, I could list Poliwrath as a counter... Water Absorb, + Ice Resistance means unless Manaphy has Grass Knot (which won't be doing that much anyway), Poliwrath will be shrugging off, or healing, and setting up as he pleases (Politoad shrugs off Manaphy as well). That's a small thing I could add to this conversation (my previous post was ignored)... Ignore, if you wish.
Didn't I already mention quite a few things that Manaphy can easily switch into without taking significant damage? You're right that Manaphy can be worn down as much as the next pokemon, but in this case Manaphy is the attacker and Ludicolo is the one taking the hits. Manaphy, with its great stats and very basic type, is more like to wear down the opponent faster than the opponent can wear it down if you're having switch wars.
Many of the better Steels have plenty of SpD. Metagross, Magnezone, Jirachi, Empoleon, and Heatran all have very respectable SpD. Bronzong is a wall on both fronts. What's left, Skarmory?
Many of the better Steels have plenty of SpD. Metagross, Magnezone, Jirachi, Empoleon, and Heatran all have very respectable SpD. Bronzong is a wall on both fronts. What's left, Skarmory?
I must admit, I have only battled one Manaphy on WiFi and dispatched it quite easily (with a bit of flinchax ;)).
Was something like...
Kabutops used Rock Slide
Manaphy flinched
Kabutops used Rock Slide
Manaphy used Tail Glow
Kabutops used Rock Slide
Woop Woop!
I've read the whole thread, but what hasn't been touched upon is how utterly average Manaphy becomes under the effects of the new and improved Taunt.
Put simply, Manaphy needs to set up to be dangerous.
When Manaphy comes out against something it can't OHKO off the bat, then it's fairly safe to anticipate a Tail Glow, Substitute or a Rain Dance. After Taunt, Manaphy's options are a bit pitiful. Water types can rarely achieve great type coverage, and although Grass Knot is great, it's a free switch in for way too many things.
But what can outspeed him, Taunt him, and then pose an immediate threat?
Well...lets see:
Alakazam...120 base speed, massive Special Attack and access to Calm Mind and Energy Ball should be able to stress out Manaphy if you invest enough SpDef EV's.
Gengar...110 speed, massive Special Attack and Thunderbolt. Lack of Calm Mind/Special Defense makes it an inferior option to Alakazam. Would be better of just Destiny Bond-ing the sod. ^_^
Gyarados...would be a great candidate for the job, with massive Special Defence and HP, plus a Surf resistance. Poor speed is a problem, but if he can catch one of the bulkier, slower Manaphy's then you have an awesome opening to Dragon Dance and sweep.
A few others that, although not neccesarilly sturdy enough or strong enough to damage Manaphy can get the Taunt in to open it up...something like:
Zangoose used Taunt
Manaphy can't use Tail Glow after the Taunt
Lee withdrew Zangoose
Lee sent out Gardevoir
Manaphy used Surf
Then begin Calm Minding or whatever.
Obviously it's not always as easy as having your Taunter against Manaphy first turn. But there's still openings...i.e Manaphy comes out and kills Infernape outright to avoid Close Combat, then you bring out the Taunter.
Not the greatest way of stopping him, but it hasn't been mentioned and I feel it has some serious merit.
But should it be uber? Well...it's too hard to say. I think people can start to underestimate the promise of 100 stats across the board. The fact that it can be fast, powerful and still maintain some bulky water qualities at the same time would make it at least top tier standard.
I'm gonna lean towards "non-uber," but I'm happy to assist in testing the little dude until we can confirm anything.
Was something like...
Kabutops used Rock Slide
Manaphy flinched
Kabutops used Rock Slide
Manaphy used Tail Glow
Kabutops used Rock Slide
Woop Woop!
I've read the whole thread, but what hasn't been touched upon is how utterly average Manaphy becomes under the effects of the new and improved Taunt.
Put simply, Manaphy needs to set up to be dangerous.
When Manaphy comes out against something it can't OHKO off the bat, then it's fairly safe to anticipate a Tail Glow, Substitute or a Rain Dance. After Taunt, Manaphy's options are a bit pitiful. Water types can rarely achieve great type coverage, and although Grass Knot is great, it's a free switch in for way too many things.
But what can outspeed him, Taunt him, and then pose an immediate threat?
Well...lets see:
Alakazam...120 base speed, massive Special Attack and access to Calm Mind and Energy Ball should be able to stress out Manaphy if you invest enough SpDef EV's.
Gengar...110 speed, massive Special Attack and Thunderbolt. Lack of Calm Mind/Special Defense makes it an inferior option to Alakazam. Would be better of just Destiny Bond-ing the sod. ^_^
Gyarados...would be a great candidate for the job, with massive Special Defence and HP, plus a Surf resistance. Poor speed is a problem, but if he can catch one of the bulkier, slower Manaphy's then you have an awesome opening to Dragon Dance and sweep.
A few others that, although not neccesarilly sturdy enough or strong enough to damage Manaphy can get the Taunt in to open it up...something like:
Zangoose used Taunt
Manaphy can't use Tail Glow after the Taunt
Lee withdrew Zangoose
Lee sent out Gardevoir
Manaphy used Surf
Then begin Calm Minding or whatever.
Obviously it's not always as easy as having your Taunter against Manaphy first turn. But there's still openings...i.e Manaphy comes out and kills Infernape outright to avoid Close Combat, then you bring out the Taunter.
Not the greatest way of stopping him, but it hasn't been mentioned and I feel it has some serious merit.
But should it be uber? Well...it's too hard to say. I think people can start to underestimate the promise of 100 stats across the board. The fact that it can be fast, powerful and still maintain some bulky water qualities at the same time would make it at least top tier standard.
I'm gonna lean towards "non-uber," but I'm happy to assist in testing the little dude until we can confirm anything.
Lee said:
The main problem with the logic here (although Gengar works with Destiny Bond if Manaphy attacks the first turn against it) is that for this line of thought to work you have to get in - if Gengar eats a Surf on the switch, or Manaphy Subs on the switch, Manaphy is going to get an easy kill without really taking any damage itself. I haven't calced it but I doubt Gengar is going to OHKO Manaphy with an unboosted Thunderbolt, so even a Tail Glow or Rain Dance on the switch would end in Gengar dying.
Alakazam takes a little less damage but suffers from much of the same problems Gengar does in that it is going to take a lot of damage switching in most of the time. If either of these Pokemon are stupid enough to try to Taunt Manaphy they are going to get blasted regardless since they both hit hard enough that Manaphy isn't going to try to set up against them.
There are some things manaphy can switch in on easily, but it'll still get worn down pretty easily due to that same basic typing you talking about, it has very little resistances and with TG sets having no recovery its not that hard to rack up damage on Manaphy. Also from my experience on wifi i realise manaphy can do massive damage to a team but alot of people are treating it as if it can OHKO everything after a TG, if anything I actually fear the Rain Dancer more than the Tail Glowerbecause it is harder to kill but by no means do i think it should be banned
Even if the only way to bump Manaphy from "OU" material to "uber" material is to support it with Rain Dance, that's more than can be said for any other standard pokemon. You could say, "Manaphy and Rain Dance on the same team are banned." but that'd be incredibly retarded.
Mismagius would work much better if you're trying that against Manaphy. Calm Mind/Pain Split/Thunderbolt/Shadow Ball could work provided you give her plenty of HP and some Special Defense.
If you switch in on Tail Glow, you'll have to Calm Mind, take the hit, Pain Split next turn, then finish Manaphy with Thunderbolt. I'm not entirely sure that will work since I haven't run any calculations.
If you switch in on Tail Glow, you'll have to Calm Mind, take the hit, Pain Split next turn, then finish Manaphy with Thunderbolt. I'm not entirely sure that will work since I haven't run any calculations.
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