Some thoughts on leading Pokemon

Ruesap12

Just a few thoughts that I would like to have some feedback on:

- The best leads are the ones who can get the enemy's lead out of battle as quickly as possible, through phazing or OHKOing. This way, the Ninjask can't pass speed to Rampardos, Tyranitar can't use DD and have the ability to sweep entire teams, and Focus Sash Weavile can't SD up and then do its own sweeping.

- Leads with quick Hypnosis or sleep are a great idea. Getting in a Hypnosis before the enemy attacks forces switches, and gives you more control in the battle, since you now know 2 of the enemy's Pokemon, and you can better anticipate what will happen next. CS Crobat or Persian? Focus Sash Breloom?

- PHazing leads are great for getting out stat-upping sweepers, keeping T-tar, DDmence, and Sash Weavile out of battle to begin with, and allowing you to switch to a more suitable Pokemon. Donphan and Skarmory can both do this, and take a hit from CS Hera. Against bulkier leads, Stealth Rock/Spikes is an option here to make the enemy fear switching.

What are some thoughts on my thoughts? I think getting the enemy's lead out of battle can break teams that need their lead- BPing teams, SS teams, etc. Quick sleepers can keep heavy-hitting leads out of battle for a while, while PHazing leads can give a slight advantage over the enemy.
 
Retarded question: What is this PHAZING of which so many speak?

I am aware of the legendary HAZE move which presumably negates any existing stats changes. If something boosts after you use haze it still works though, right?

And what is PHAZING? Perhaps, it stands for Proper HAZING? People HAZING? Perspective HAZING? Purugly HAZING? Pineapple HAZING? Phaz IN Grass?

I'm asking for help here. T_T
 
Ruesap12 said:
- PHazing leads are great for getting out stat-upping sweepers, keeping T-tar, DDmence, and Sash Weavile out of battle to begin with, and allowing you to switch to a more suitable Pokemon. Donphan and Skarmory can both do this, and take a hit from CS Hera. Against bulkier leads, Stealth Rock/Spikes is an option here to make the enemy fear switching.
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The problem with this though is that if a pokemon that is generally known to stat up is in the lead, (Gyarados or something), it will very rarely attempt to stat up until it has a basic idea of your team and what your counter to it is, so phazing is not really so much of a priority when it comes to leads.

I think more important you should have a lead that scares away as many opposing leads as possible to give you an early momentum. This can either mean something so fast and hard hitting that it scares away other fast hard hitting leads(stuff like CSGar, CSHera, Weavile). The other category is something that isn't afraid of these fast hard hitting leads, and is relatively bulky and can get Stealth Rocks up, or some other form of team support, (ie Swampert, Cresselia, whatever). These are the two typical archetypes for leads. After these are the "Anti-Leads" like Breloom that can beat lots of common leads
 
PHazing is getting a similar effect of Haze without using Haze itself. This is usually in the form of Roar or Whirlwind.
 
Phazing stands for Pseudo-Hazing, as in forcing a switch so the opponent's stat-ups (and stat-downs) are negating.

Stuff like Whirlwind/Roar (which force switches) or stat-downs like Charm (which make the foe want to switch to restore his attacking power) is phazing.
 
Though there are many counters to the common leads such as Ttar and Weavile, there are also counters to those counters... My Gengar *cough*focussash*cough* can counter any physical attacker willing to attempt to attack it... yeah...
and Im pretty sure PHazing stands for pseudo-hazing...

Edit: beaten >_<
 
the p stands for "psuedo," which translates to false or unreal. Basically, it gets rid of statups by switching the opponent out. Attacks like charm, screech, leech seed, and status are also PHaze moves, but they aren't guaranteed like roar and whirlwind. Depending on the ability, tentacruel wouldn't mind either leech seed or stat downs

darn, beaten twice...
 
I agree with most of what is said in the above post, though I would like to add that any fast lead with Will-O-Wisp can tremendously hamper many common leads- Tyranitar, Weavile and Gyarados, though Gyarados isn't seen terribly often as a lead, come to mind. My own example would be a Choice Scarf Gallade or Ninetales, which is as odd as it sounds.

Pseudohazing refers to any move that forces a switch- specifically, Whirlwind and Roar. However, certain tactics can also force a switch, such as a Spore from a Focus Sashed Breloom as mentioned above... pseudo-pseudohazing, if you will.

Edit: Beaten to it... must type faster...
 
mm2001's idea for a gengar moveset was one of the most innovative things ive seen so far this generation. I won't say what it is here, because I'm sure he wants to keep it private for now

fuck it it's hypnosis/explosion/counter/hp ice or fighting i think@focus sash
 
Dan Dan said:
mm2001's idea for a gengar moveset was one of the most innovative things ive seen so far this generation. I won't say what it is here, because I'm sure he wants to keep it private for now

fuck it it's hypnosis/explosion/counter/hp ice or fighting i think@focus sash
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Wow, that would certainly be unexpected.
 
He posted it on the RMT forum anyway.

Good phazing moves are: Roar, Whirlwind, Perish Song (not immediate), and Mind Reader / Lock On. The others like Charm and Leech Seed really cannot be called proper phazing moves.
 
Surgo said:
He posted it on the RMT forum anyway.

Good phazing moves are: Roar, Whirlwind, Perish Song (not immediate), and Mind Reader / Lock On. The others like Charm and Leech Seed really cannot be called proper phazing moves.
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Why wouldn't Charm be good? The only physical attacker that would like being hit by it would be Metagross, and it has to switch in for that to work. . .

(Well, unless I'm missing something, which I'm certain that I am)
 
adman2 said:
Why wouldn't Charm be good? The only physical attacker that would like being hit by it would be Metagross, and it has to switch in for that to work. . .

(Well, unless I'm missing something, which I'm certain that I am)
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The fact that Special Attackers don't care about its effects (and that Mixed Sweepers can handle it depending on the situation).
 
Dan Dan said:
mm2001's idea for a gengar moveset was one of the most innovative things ive seen so far this generation. I won't say what it is here, because I'm sure he wants to keep it private for now

fuck it it's hypnosis/explosion/counter/hp ice or fighting i think@focus sash
Click to expand...


I think Destiny Bond works over Explosion, or maybe even over Hypnosis so you can run both. After Focus Sash, you're left with 1 HP, and everything has a chance of killing you. Yeah, I was thinking of Counter @ Focus Sash Gengar, but I think the whole Counter @ Focus Sash was introduced by chaos in a Deoxys-F set(Correct me if I'm wrong).
 
It does prevent stat-up to an extent, but it is not reliable enough to call it PHaze though.

Good example is when your taunter is slower. Also taunt doesn't delete stat ups if your opponent already used a stat boosting move.
 
How would Choice Scarf Starmie function as a lead?
Obviously, it's incredibly weak to CB Pursuit leads, or Pursuit in general, but Choice Scarf takes care of that quite effectively, by allowing it to outspeed the most prominent users of that attack (CS Heracross, CB Weavile).

I was thinking the following:

Starmie @ Choice Scarf
Modest (+SpAtk, -Atk) - 252 SpAtk, 216 Speed, 40 HP
Natural Cure
~ Ice Beam
~ Thunderbolt
~ Hidden Power Fighting
~ Psychic

It has enough Speed to ensure it goes first when encountering a Modest Choice Scarf Gengar and thus it'll also outspeed Choice Scarf Adamant Garchomp (although that's rarely a lead pokemon) and Choice Scarf Heracross. Non-CS'd Weavile is also outsped, obviously, making Pursuit less dangerous.

Basically, this is a counter to some common leads: Hidden Power Fighting OHKO's 4 HP/no SpDef Weavile guaranteedly. Ice Beam handles Salamence and Garchomp, Thunderbolt covers Gyarados (98% damage minimum to the bulky one) and Psychic OHKO's Gengar guaranteedly and Heracross on average (93.71 - 110.26% damage).
Tyranitar still is a pain in the ass to take down (it isn't OHKO'd by Hidden Power Fighting, while it can take down Starmie with Crunch in one hit), as is Swampert. I was thinking of replacing Hidden Power Fighting with Surf, as you're not going to die from Weavile's Pursuit anyway, even when Choice Banded (assuming a Jolly nature with Choice Band) and Surf 2HKO's. It would also help with the occasional Donphan lead.
Grass Knot should also be considered for Swampert, as Surf only 3HKO's it, on average, but aside from Swampert, I can't think of anything big you'd want to take down with Grass Knot, as Surf would cover things nicely for you.

For novelty, you could slap Power Gem on him so it can guaranteedly OHKO Ninjask, as it outspeeds it after applying the Choice Scarf boost. You're just screwed when you encounter one that uses Protect, and given the fact that it isn't particularly useful for anything else (only deals mediocre damage to Weavile and Gyarados), it's not really worth it.

Opinions?

EDIT: I forgot the fact that a switch to Blissey would be the most likely reaction on your opponent's side as soon as they see a Starmie, which gives the opponent the opportunity to freely paralyze something with Thunder Wave. Using this in tandem with Electivire or Dugtrio could be possible, as you'd instantly gain the upper hand in the battle then (either you have an incredibly solid physical sweeper with a free +1 Speed boost, or you have gotten rid of their main special wall already, possibly clearing the way for some mid-game Special Sweeper (or to make things easier for the next time this Starmie comes in)). You could also choose to let Starmie in one more turn and switch out afterwards to cure the paralysis through Natural Cure.
 
I generally always had the opinion the best leads are ones which are either all-round bulky or are fast with a status move. But I tend to just pick leads fine without thinking about it at the same time its because I have these criteria drilled into my head when picking my leads.


-Does it inflict status easily?-
Even if you can't do anything at least you can hinder them to slow them down.

-Is the lead fast?-
Needed for first attacks or inflicting status straight away. You don't know your opponents cards, therefore you don't want to give them a chance to play them without giving them a quick slap in the face.

-Is it type neutral?-
Sometimes when it you want it to hang around abit longer its best the Pokemon is of a neutral typing so you can scout without wasting a moveslot or turn with Protect/Detect or Sub. (eg. Something as simple as starting with a Normal type) If it doesn't fit this criteria then it better do the other things damn well.

This does NOT necessarily mean only in defensive typing. It should also be able to pose somewhat of an offensive threat whether it be small or large without being immediately walled. So something like Kindra which only fufills the defensive section and not the offensive section is disqualified.

This point leads directly onto...

-Can it take a hit?-
If its not fast but low on weaknesses then it better be prepared to take either a good status attack and/or damage and keep ticking. Actually for this reason I still believe Lum Berry is still the optimal lead pokemon item on bulkier leads.


Though they're only loose points so they don't necessarily all have to be fufilled, even fufilling one of those already gives a decent lead.

Just using the Gengar from above if it led, its a very specialized lead/counter. Against a more general lead with simply. A status move (say T-wave for simplicity), Lum Berry and Normal type. Has already rendered Gengar pretty much optionless other than exploding on the first turn.
 
People may be prepared for Electivire and run Sing on their Blissey instead of Thunder Wave.
It's even worser than being Paralyzed.
 
Glen ^^ said:
People may be prepared for Electivire and run Sing on their Blissey instead of Thunder Wave.
It's even worser than being Paralyzed.
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True.
This could be a point in favor of letting Starmie stay in one more turn, to scout for what they're up to.
Also, when using Sing, Blissey would have to watch out for a Heracross switch-in, as a CB'd Megahorn or Close Combat hurts it quite badly when Guts has kicked in.
 
Fantasty said:
True.
This could be a point in favor of letting Starmie stay in one more turn, to scout for what they're up to.
Also, when using Sing, Blissey would have to watch out for a Heracross switch-in, as a CB'd Megahorn or Close Combat hurts it quite badly when Guts has kicked in.
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I assume here you mean Sleep Talk Heracross with Choice Band. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't it been confirmed that choice items only allow Sleep Talk to be used once, then leave the user completely immobilized? If so, this could also be used to your advantage by switching to something that can take Close Combat/Megahorn and get a free set-up turn.
 
Hmm, it seems as though I have missed something...
Thanks for pointing that out ;)
And yeah, I was talking about Sleep Talk Heracross there.
 
I remember Guts worked with sleep in Netbattle, but looks like it doesn't work on the original games.
But Guts or not, a Megahorn still hurts D=
 
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