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Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II
- Thread starter Mekkah
- Start date
- Status
Am I the only one who has noticed that we actually have 2 entries for RB Bulbasaur in the list of the OP, one in Top tier and one in High? That should probably be fixed lol
I'm just updating with my thoughts on Tangela and Kabuto (and the others).
Tangela sucks. Not that I needed to do a playthrough to know this, but it just isn't good for the purposes of efficiency. It has good stats but its terrible movepool (probably the worst of all the grass-types) cancels this out to make battles drag on and on and on. It doesn't do that well against Erika, or Koga, or Sabrina, or Blaine, or Agatha, or Lance, or much at all really. This is Low as hell.
Kabuto is actually pretty good. You do have to deviate from what many would consider the "normal" pathway for a playthrough to get it early, and it starts off a bit slowly (especially compared to Omanyte), but this thing catches up quite quickly. It is so convenient that Pokemon Mansion seems to be designed specifically for grinding all of the other fossils. It gets Slash at level 39 and evolves 1 level later, and its Special is good enough to use Surf as a secondary attack. It made short work of Sabrina with Slash and it can beat Blaine and Giovanni, so it has some good match-ups. Seems like an interesting candidate for Mid at the moment.
Chansey and Kangaskhan... will probably get Low. They are both really good pokemon for different reasons, but they usually take ages to get and the time you save by using them is more than cancelled out by the time you take to find them most of the time. Sure, if you just happen to find and catch one as you are going through for the Surf HM/Gold Teeth, then use them and they will be awesome. But I really don't like the idea of actually RECOMMENDING them when planning a team since looking for them will probably waste a lot of time. No matter how good they are, there are many alternatives that can contribute just as much to a playthrough but are easier to obtain. For this reason, I think Tauros should get Low as well, though I probably won't write up Tauros.
I still don't like Slowpoke. It is so slow and weak as a Slowpoke and even as a Slowbro it isn't powerful enough to get away with being to sluggish (unlike, say, Snorlax). 75 Attack and 80 Special might have been ok if it could actually outspeed things, but it doesn't so it isn't. It often can't OHKO opponents which means it takes 2 hits before KOing the opponent. Good thing I have Softboiled Chansey. On the other hand it has a good movepool and great coverage for some important battles and it is fairly bulky after it evolves, although it evolves a bit later than I'd like. So I don't know what tier to put this in yet. I'm inclined to say Low though.
Growlithe could actually be High. I originally thought Mid but I have been using this for most of the game and it is so powerful as long as you evolve it as soon as possible. It's like a Charizard in the way it plows through everything, except that Dig hits even harder. It lacks Slash, but it has alternatives that hit pretty hard anyway. I guess its reliance on Dig and the fact that it comes later than Charizard are the main arguments against it though.
I'm just updating with my thoughts on Tangela and Kabuto (and the others).
Tangela sucks. Not that I needed to do a playthrough to know this, but it just isn't good for the purposes of efficiency. It has good stats but its terrible movepool (probably the worst of all the grass-types) cancels this out to make battles drag on and on and on. It doesn't do that well against Erika, or Koga, or Sabrina, or Blaine, or Agatha, or Lance, or much at all really. This is Low as hell.
Kabuto is actually pretty good. You do have to deviate from what many would consider the "normal" pathway for a playthrough to get it early, and it starts off a bit slowly (especially compared to Omanyte), but this thing catches up quite quickly. It is so convenient that Pokemon Mansion seems to be designed specifically for grinding all of the other fossils. It gets Slash at level 39 and evolves 1 level later, and its Special is good enough to use Surf as a secondary attack. It made short work of Sabrina with Slash and it can beat Blaine and Giovanni, so it has some good match-ups. Seems like an interesting candidate for Mid at the moment.
Chansey and Kangaskhan... will probably get Low. They are both really good pokemon for different reasons, but they usually take ages to get and the time you save by using them is more than cancelled out by the time you take to find them most of the time. Sure, if you just happen to find and catch one as you are going through for the Surf HM/Gold Teeth, then use them and they will be awesome. But I really don't like the idea of actually RECOMMENDING them when planning a team since looking for them will probably waste a lot of time. No matter how good they are, there are many alternatives that can contribute just as much to a playthrough but are easier to obtain. For this reason, I think Tauros should get Low as well, though I probably won't write up Tauros.
I still don't like Slowpoke. It is so slow and weak as a Slowpoke and even as a Slowbro it isn't powerful enough to get away with being to sluggish (unlike, say, Snorlax). 75 Attack and 80 Special might have been ok if it could actually outspeed things, but it doesn't so it isn't. It often can't OHKO opponents which means it takes 2 hits before KOing the opponent. Good thing I have Softboiled Chansey. On the other hand it has a good movepool and great coverage for some important battles and it is fairly bulky after it evolves, although it evolves a bit later than I'd like. So I don't know what tier to put this in yet. I'm inclined to say Low though.
Growlithe could actually be High. I originally thought Mid but I have been using this for most of the game and it is so powerful as long as you evolve it as soon as possible. It's like a Charizard in the way it plows through everything, except that Dig hits even harder. It lacks Slash, but it has alternatives that hit pretty hard anyway. I guess its reliance on Dig and the fact that it comes later than Charizard are the main arguments against it though.
There already is a thread on it [thread=3467489]here[/thread], though it hasn't been touched in over 2 months!
Double-posting because it seemed better to keep this separate.
These are the entries I did for Growlithe, Slowpoke, Kangaskhan, Chansey, Tangela and Kabuto. Feedback is appreciated. I'm sure someone out there must disagree with something I've written.
-Growlithe (Red and Yellow only) - High Tier
-Availability: In RB, it is found on Route 8. It is slightly under-levelled but as long as you teach it the right moves then it catch up pretty quickly by grinding against the wild Pokémon and the trainers along the route. In Yellow it comes later, at the Pokémon mansion, but it is possible to catch it at a high enough level so that little grinding is required. If you are willing to detour a bit from the ‘normal’ route, then you can get it early enough in Yellow too. Either way, you can evolve it into the powerful Arcanine straight away, so it can have a fully evolved powerhouse quite early too.
-Stats: Arcanine has excellent stats. 110 Attack and 95 Speed make it a powerful physical attacker. It has 90 HP, 80 Defence and 80 Special, giving it good bulk and allowing it to use its STAB moves effectively.
-Movepool: Growlithe’s movepool is small overall but it has everything it needs to work. Growlithe’s level up movepool isn’t the greatest, but it starts with Bite, which is decent enough, and it learns Take Down a bit later if you are willing to hold off on evolution (and are willing to risk the recoil and miss chance). It also gets Flamethrower but it comes quite late and it isn’t worth delaying evolution. Arcanine gets Dig from TM, which you’ll need if you want Arcanine to reach its full potential. Body Slam is also helpful but not required (Double-Edge and Take Down are acceptable but inferior alternatives), and Fire Blast can also be used although it comes late.
-Power: Growlithe isn’t particularly powerful but you can evolve it almost as soon as you get it. Arcanine is a powerhouse, blasting through almost all trainers with ridiculous ease. Pretty much everything is at least 2HKOed, and most regular trainer Pokémon are OHKOed.
-Type: Fire is certainly not the best STAB in the game but you probably won’t be using it throughout most of your playthrough anyway (Fire Blast comes late and Ember is useless). Fire has a few annoying weaknesses but in most cases Arcanine doesn’t care because it kills things so efficiently.
-Match-ups: Erika - Ember is too weak to kill Weepinbell/Victreebel and Gloom/Vileplume quickly but Tangela can be 2HKOed in RB. Arcanine can still solo her because of Grass resistance and good power.
Koga – It can sweep through Koga just fine in RB. You should do ok in Yellow as it can take a few Psychics, and Venonat is a weakling.
Sabrina – No type advantage but you actually do ok here because you have enough bulk to take a hit and you are hitting against the weaker Defence stat.
Blaine – You can sweep with Dig.
Giovanni – In RB you should do ok with Dig, and most of the team lacks super-effective moves (Dugtrio has Dig but it can be avoided with a Dig of your own). In Yellow you have to be more careful because of Earthquake and Rock Slide, but you can still contribute.
Lorelei – You should stay away from her Water types, but Jynx is beatable.
Bruno – You can beat the fighting types as long as you are at a good enough level. There are better options for Onix in Yellow but you still have Dig.
Agatha – Dig smacks her Ghosts and Arbok around. You can beat Golbat on pure strength alone.
Lance - This isn’t a particularly good match-up. Aerodactyl walls you and Gyarados has Hydro Pump. You can beat the Dragons as long as your level is good enough (watch out for BubbleBeam).
Blue – Honestly the only things you’ll have trouble beating are Blastoise, Vaporeon, Gyarados and Sandslash. You have a good chance against everything else thanks to stats and/or movepool.
-Additional Comments: Arcanine is basically a Charizard clone in the sense that they should be treated in exactly the same way. It is hurt mainly by reliance on TMs, but if you are willing to give them to Growlithe then it is an excellent choice that will help you speed through the game.
-Slowpoke - Low Tier
-Availability: In RB, you can catch it as soon as you get the Super Rod, but it comes at level 15 and requires a fair amount of grinding. Alternatively you can wait until Surf and get it from the Seaform Islands at a higher level. In Yellow, you have to wait until you get Surf. You can catch it as a Slowpoke or a Slowbro in Yellow.
-Stats: Slowbro has an excellent 110 Defence, and is capable of taking hits from both sides. It has 75 Attack and 80 Special, which gives it average (but not outstanding) offensive capabilities. Unfortunately, it is incredibly slow, with only 30 Speed.
-Movepool: Slowpoke’s level up movepool isn’t bad (Psychic, Confusion and Headbutt are all usable options) although it appreciates the use of TMs/HMs. Thankfully, it has plenty to pick from. Surf, Ice Beam, Blizzard, Fire Blast, and Earthquake are all good options.
-Power: The main problem with Slowpoke/Slowbro is its abysmal speed. It is almost always going to take a hit before it moves and the damage adds up. This is compounded by the fact that Slowbro often can’t OHKO if it can’t hit for super-effective damage which means it often has to take at least 2 hits to kill things. Although Slowbro’s bulk helps with this problem, it prevents Slowbro from sweeping through multiple enemies efficiently.
-Type: Water and Psychic is a great STAB combination and it allows him to hit for super-effective damage in some important battles. The Bug weakness it has is basically irrelevant, and the Electric and Grass weaknesses can be worked around.
-Match-ups: Koga – Psychic allows you to do good things. The slow speed can be a problem though. It can leave you vulnerable to Smokescreen, Disable, Sleep Powder, Supersonic and Evasion.
Sabrina – You can beat her, but your low speed is an issue here too. You can shrug off a few hits but you are vulnerable to Disable, Recover and Special drops. If you have a physical attack it will help a lot.
Blaine – High Defence and Fire resistance serve you well; watch out for Ninetales’s Confuse Ray in Yellow, and Stomp flinches.
Giovanni – You can win thanks to coverage alone, and Persian can’t do much to you anyway. Be careful around Thunder in Yellow though.
Lorelei – This is an even match since you can’t do much to each other at all. STAB Psychic gives you an advantage but there are better choices for this battle that will allow you to finish this battle much faster.
Bruno – You can’t lose here. Your STABs cover everything just fine.
Agatha – Psychic is effective against here but your Speed will screw you over. Get ready to deal with confusion, sleep and paralysis.
Lance - If you have an Ice attack then you are good to go. It can beat Gyarados but there are superior choices.
Blue – You should be ok to take on Pidgeot, Rhydon, Exeggutor, Arcanine, Venusaur, Charizard, Sandslash, Ninetales, and Flareon.
-Additional Comments: Slowbro has some strong points, but ultimately it is a horribly slow Pokémon that initially arrives at a low level, evolves late and isn’t even strong enough to make putting up with the low speed worth it.
-Kangaskhan - Low Tier
-Availability: It can only be caught in the Safari Zone. This is a problem because it means you are left in the hands of the Safari Zone capture mechanics. It doesn’t help that Kangaskhan is a rare Pokémon with a low capture rate. Unless you can very lucky, you will be looking for it for a long time. It also comes at a level that will probably be lower than your team’s average, but it is powerful and can grind up quite easily.
-Stats: Kangaskhan is built as a physical sweeper with its 95 Attack and 90 Speed. Although they aren’t jaw-droppingly awesome, they are good enough for in-game purposes. With 105 HP and 80 Defence it can take physical hits comfortably. However, 40 Special is poor and powerful special attacks will do a lot of damage to Kangaskhan.
-Movepool: Kangaskhan only learns Normal moves by level-up, although they have plenty of neutral coverage so you could almost get away with just running a mono-Normal moveset. However, Kangaskhan has an extensive TM/HM movepool. It has Earthquake and Rock Slide which will complement the Normal coverage well. Kangaskhan also has a large special movepool, capable of getting Surf, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Fire Blast and Thunderbolt. However, Kangaskhan’s low Special limits the use of these and there are better choices for these moves.
-Power: Kangaskhan is a strong attacker thanks to its decent attack and great physical movepool. It can comfortably run through the weaker trainers in the game easily. It often can’t OHKO stronger opponents with its STAB but it should have no problem 2HKOing things at the very least.
-Type: Normal has no super-effective coverage unfortunately, but it does hit neutral on everything except Rock types and the 3 Ghosts, both of which are covered by Earthquake. Normal has one weakness and one immunity, though both are mostly irrelevant for in-game playthroughs.
-Match-ups: Koga – In RB you may struggle a bit unless you have Earthquake already because they have good bulk. However, they can’t do much back to you either. In Yellow, you have Rock Slide for his bugs, but they are hitting you on your weak Special and Venomoth may be a difficult opponent.
Sabrina – This is an interesting match-up because you both do heavy damage to each other. They hit you on your Low Special and you hit back at their low Defence. This battle will probably come down to level.
Blaine – You have either Rock Slide or Earthquake and can attempt a sweep. However, Arcanine’s Fire Blast hits you very hard and can burn you.
Giovanni – Earthquake is a good choice here since it covers the stronger Pokémon on his team, and Dugtrio and Persian should be beaten with brute force. Even Surf could be a viable option! Thunder is really the only thing that you care about here.
Lorelei – You have Rock Slide but they are hitting you on your low Special so be careful.
Bruno – Hitmonlee and Machamp are brutal with their Fighting moves, but the others should be easily beaten.
Agatha – You do nicely here. Earthquake and Rock Slide cover everything and you have the power to beat her quickly. As usual you can lose if you are unlucky, but that’s assumed.
Lance – Rock Slide covers his stronger Pokémon and Dragonair are easy to beat. Gyarados will hit you for large damage with Hydro Pump. This is harder in Yellow since he has more special attacks.
Blue – It depends on what you taught him. Earthquake gets Jolteon, Magneton and the Fire types. Rock Slide hits Charizard, Pidgeot and Gyarados. You can contribute here, but as usual look out for Special moves.
-Additional Comments: Kangaskhan is Low simply because it is one of the most unavailable Pokémon in the game. It is a decent Pokémon in its own right, but unless you get very lucky in obtaining it you’ll be looking for it for a while. Any time you gain from using Kangaskhan will probably be insufficient for the purposes of making up for lost time looking for it. If you do get lucky and catch it quickly then it can be awesome, but actually PLANNING to have it as part of your team and specifically looking for it is not recommended.
-Chansey - Low Tier
-Availability: Chansey is probably the most unavailable Pokémon in the whole game. It is a rare Pokémon with low catch rate. What’s worse is that it is a Safari Zone Pokémon which means you have little control over whether you will successfully catch it or not. The odds are stacked against you and you will probably be looking for this for a long time.
-Stats: Chansey’s stat distribution is quite unique. Chansey has a ridiculous 250 HP. Backed up by 105 Special, Chansey absolutely cannot be defeated by any special attack, ever. The high Special also makes it a powerful attacker. On the other hand, it only has 5 Attack and Defence. Although the massive HP stat helps with physical attacks somewhat, don’t be surprised when random things like Weezing’s Sludge 2HKO you. Chansey is a bit on the slow side with 50 Speed, but as long as you are at a decent level you should go first most of the time.
-Movepool: Sadly, Chansey’s level up movepool is quite useless. It only learns physical attacks, which do laughable damage, along with a bunch of insignificant support moves. On the plus side, Chansey’s TM compatibility is insane! Between Ice Beam/Blizzard, Thunderbolt, BubbleBeam, Fire Blast, Psychic and SolarBeam, Chansey can throw together a moveset catering to your teams needs. Another thing that can’t be over-looked is its access to Softboiled. With this move in hand, Chansey can become the ultimate support Pokémon by healing its wounded team mates, saving you a trip to the Pokémon centre. Given its incredible HP score, Chansey is more than capable of performing in this role, and it is the only Pokémon able to do so anyway. Finally, Chansey has Thunder Wave which isn’t a required move but it allows it to make up for its low Speed in important battles.
-Power: Chansey is mainly held back by its lack of Special STAB. It can have trouble getting around some Pokémon that aren’t weak to one of its moves. Kadabra, Alakazam and Hypno in particular can cause problems. Still, Chansey has amazing coverage backed by 105 Special, allowing it to kill teams just fine on its own. Chansey’s low Speed can cause problems occasionally, but against most under-levelled you’ll go first anyway.
-Type: It has no use for its Normal STAB thanks to its useless Attack score. Chansey sort of wishes it had more resistances, but it doesn’t really need them. Only powerful Fighting attacks (which are not that common) have a chance to OHKO it without a critical hit, and special attacks do laughable damage to it.
-Match-ups: Koga – Psychic can be used to sweep here if you have it. In RB, you’ll be attacked from the physical side so you may struggle to sweep unassisted. In Yellow, you are much better placed thanks to your special bulk cushioning Psychic.
Sabrina – You start out with an advantage because you shrug off all of their hits. They have high Special stats though so they can survive your hits. You can’t lose unless you suffer several Special drops. Thunder Wave is a useful option here.
Blaine – The fire attacks you will face are easily shrugged off. The physical attacks are more of an issue, although watching Arcanine maim itself with Take Down recoil is satisfying! BubbleBeam is your strongest option here.
Giovanni – BubbleBeam and Ice Beam/Blizzard will cover everything except Persian. You must be careful though, as this is a physically based team and a full sweep is difficult.
Lorelei – On the plus side, you take nothing from their Ice and Water attacks. On the down side, all of her Pokémon have physical attacks except Slowbro, who can set up Amnesia. Lapras is the biggest threat with Body Slam. Thunderbolt covers most of her Pokémon just fine.
Bruno – BubbleBeam/Ice Beam/Blizzard wrecks Onix and Psychic covers everything else. Hitmonchan is a joke, especially in Yellow. Hitmonlee and Machamp are more dangerous thanks to their Fighting attacks.
Agatha – All of her Pokémon can’t really do much to Chansey directly but your low Speed leave you vulnerable to status moves. If luck is on your side then this won’t be an issue though.
Lance – BoltBeam covers everything. This is a bit easier in Yellow because there are more special attacks but everything has at least 1 physical attack. This will make a full solo difficult, but as long as you have the right moves then you can at least contribute.
Blue – What to teach Chansey governs what you can kill. Everything except Alakazam has at least 1 physical attack but not all of his Pokémon can do much with them. Basically, just pick off what you can with the moves you have and leave the rest to something else.
-Additional Comments: Chansey is definitely a good Pokémon if you can get your hands on it. But that’s the problem. Catching it is difficult and can take ages. Much like all of the rare Safari Zone Pokémon, you can waste precious time catching this, and any time that you save by having this on your team will probably not be enough to make up for this.
-Tangela - Low Tier
-Availability: In RB it is caught after you get Surf south of Pallet Town. It isn’t too difficult to find usually but it needs some time to catch up to the rest of your team. Annoyingly, there aren’t any particularly good spots to grind it, although the Power Plant and Seaform Islands are ok choices. In Yellow, it is purely a Safari Zone Pokémon and is therefore harder to obtain (though it can be obtained sooner).
-Stats: Tangela has good stats overall. 115 Defence and 100 Special allows it to take all kinds of hits. It is a bit slow though, and its Attack is disappointing.
-Movepool: Tangela’s movepool is horrible. It is capable of learning Grass and Normal attacks. Because of its low Attack, its Normal attacks are mostly worthless. What’s worse is that it can’t learn Razor Leaf or Petal Dance, which leaves it with SolarBeam and Mega Drain as its best options. This limits its overall power. It does have access to the status powders though, which helps it defeat things.
-Power: Tangela is really held back by its movepool. To get around anything with resistance to Grass, it has to resort to Bind-trapping and its status moves to win, neither of which is particularly fast. Even against opponents that lack Grass resistance, it often can’t OHKO anything because Mega Drain is a weak attack and SolarBeam takes 2 turns. It can OHKO things with a Grass weakness, but that’s it.
-Type: Grass really is a mixed bag as an attacking type. It does hit some important Pokémon super-effectively, but it’s also resisted by a large number of Pokémon. The same applies from a defensive point of view. Grass has some good resistances but it also has some irritating weaknesses to Flying, Ice, Poison and Fire (and Bug but that isn’t that important). Tangela’s good bulk does help with the weaknesses a bit though, as long as you don’t get overly reckless.
-Match-ups: Sabrina – You aren’t that good here. You are outsped, Psychic does quite a bit of damage and you can’t do much back to her.
Blaine – You are pretty useless here. You can’t really do anything useful here unless you have an extreme aount of luck on your side.
Giovanni – This is one of your better match-ups. Grass hits Dugtrio, Rhyhorn and Rhydon. Nidoqueen and Nidoking can’t do much to you. Persian is a weakling that you can take out just fine. You can actually solo here, which is rare for Tangela.
Lorelei – Grass is super-effective on most of her team, but Ice is super-effective back. Slowbro can be beaten just fine but there are better choices for everything else.
Bruno – This is an ok match-up. You kill Onix and you can take on the fighting types thanks to your high Defence and their low Special.
Agatha – Don’t bother. You can’t touch anything here and they have their way with you with their annoying movesets.
Lance – Gyarados is the thing you stand the greatest chance against. Aerodactyl is doable in RB thanks to its lack of Flying moves (watch for Supersonic). In RB, you can take their hits but you can’t do much back (you may need to resort to status moves). In Yellow, 2 of the Dragons have Ice moves.
Blue – Your best match-ups are Rhydon, Blastoise, Sandslash, Magneton, Vaporeon, Jolteon and Cloyster. Watch for Ice attacks from the Water types.
-Additional Comments: Tangela has nice stats but its movepool is just too small to make this a good choice for an efficient run. It is the worst Grass type in the game and it is incapable of doing much of anything that would make it a worthwhile choice.
-Kabuto - Mid Tier
-Availability: It is obtained from the Dome Fossil. You can obtain it as soon as you get Surf. It comes at level 30 and starts off a bit slowly. However, Kabuto catches up quickly thanks to being able to grind easily at the Pokémon Mansion. It evolves at level 40, which doesn’t actually take that long from the level that you obtain it.
-Stats: Although Kabuto isn’t particularly powerful stat wise, Kabutops has good stats overall. 115 Attack is nothing to scoff at. 70 Special is not that bad for the purposes of Surf, 80 Speed is fast enough for in-game, and it also has decent 60/105/80 defences.
-Movepool: It has a small movepool but it gets everything it needs without any TM support. Slash is awesome from 115 Attack, and Surf from 70 Special is an acceptable secondary attack. It also gets Submission, Ice Beam and Blizzard but it does not need any of these to be successful. The main downside is its lack of physical STAB, but Slash is a good alternative.
-Power: Kabuto is mediocre but you don’t have to put up with it for long. When it evolves, Kabutops becomes a great sweeper. Slash can make short work of many teams thanks to its high Attack and decent Speed. Surf deals with the Rock types that resist it.
-Type: STAB on Water is not a bad thing to have in this game, especially because it deals with all of the Slash-resisting Rock types. From a defensive standpoint, Rock/Water has some interesting resistances. Normal resistance is so useful, especially because many things in the game are limited to STAB + Normal coverage. Kabutops flat-out walls some Pokémon, especially Fire and Flying types. Of course, Rock/Water has some annoying weaknesses too (especially Grass), so you need to be careful when these types pop up in important battles (using something else is safer but Kabutops can still win on power alone).
-Match-ups: Sabrina – Slash is brutal against her. At this point you should be able to out-speed and sweep her entire team.
Blaine – You can’t possibly lose here unless you get extremely unlucky. You wall his whole team completely and you can hit them with Surf.
Giovanni – You can sweep with Surf (Slash is fine for Persian), but look out for Thunder and Earthquake in Yellow.
Lorelei – Aside from Jynx, her team is rather bulky. Slash hits everything but a full sweep is asking a lot of Kabutops. Its lack of Rock Slide is really noticable here.
Bruno – Onix is beaten with Surf. You should probably stay away from Hitmonlee and Machamp (you can beat them but their Fighting attacks are brutal. Hitmonchan is too weak to be that much of an issue unless you get surprised by Counter!
Agatha – This is a bit tricky. You should beat Golbat and Arbok but the Ghosts are immune to Slash and can take Surf easily. One of them has Mega Drain. Stay away from the Ghosts.
Lance – You are good to go in RB because you wall Aerodactyl and all of the Dragons. Gyarados can leave a bit of a dent with Hydro Pump though. This is harder in Yellow where you have to deal with Thunderbolt and Thunder. Aerodactyl still can’t touch you and the Ice Beam/BubbleBeam Dragonair is beatable.
Blue – You actually do really well against Blue. You can take on Pidgeot, Alakazam (Slash destroys it), Rhydon, Exeggutor, Charizard, Arcanine, Ninetales and Flareon. The Water types are doable, as is Sandslash (Earthquake is powerful against it though).
-Additional Comments: This comes a bit late and starts off a bit weak, but Kabutops is a powerful team member with good stats and a small but precise movepool that has strong match-ups against many of the important trainers that it will likely face during its time on your team. You could do a lot worse.
Also, I thought it might be a good idea to have a revised 'to-do' list at least until Mekkah updates next:
Bulbasaur (RB)
Cubone
Hitmonlee
Horsea
Koffing
Ponyta
Porygon
Psyduck
Seel
Squirtle (Y)
Staryu
Voltorb
I think that's correct (well, beside RB Bulbasaur, but I'm not sure if it was intentional or not), although it assumes that all the entries submitted since the last update will be accepted, which they may not be.
These are the entries I did for Growlithe, Slowpoke, Kangaskhan, Chansey, Tangela and Kabuto. Feedback is appreciated. I'm sure someone out there must disagree with something I've written.
-Growlithe (Red and Yellow only) - High Tier
-Availability: In RB, it is found on Route 8. It is slightly under-levelled but as long as you teach it the right moves then it catch up pretty quickly by grinding against the wild Pokémon and the trainers along the route. In Yellow it comes later, at the Pokémon mansion, but it is possible to catch it at a high enough level so that little grinding is required. If you are willing to detour a bit from the ‘normal’ route, then you can get it early enough in Yellow too. Either way, you can evolve it into the powerful Arcanine straight away, so it can have a fully evolved powerhouse quite early too.
-Stats: Arcanine has excellent stats. 110 Attack and 95 Speed make it a powerful physical attacker. It has 90 HP, 80 Defence and 80 Special, giving it good bulk and allowing it to use its STAB moves effectively.
-Movepool: Growlithe’s movepool is small overall but it has everything it needs to work. Growlithe’s level up movepool isn’t the greatest, but it starts with Bite, which is decent enough, and it learns Take Down a bit later if you are willing to hold off on evolution (and are willing to risk the recoil and miss chance). It also gets Flamethrower but it comes quite late and it isn’t worth delaying evolution. Arcanine gets Dig from TM, which you’ll need if you want Arcanine to reach its full potential. Body Slam is also helpful but not required (Double-Edge and Take Down are acceptable but inferior alternatives), and Fire Blast can also be used although it comes late.
-Power: Growlithe isn’t particularly powerful but you can evolve it almost as soon as you get it. Arcanine is a powerhouse, blasting through almost all trainers with ridiculous ease. Pretty much everything is at least 2HKOed, and most regular trainer Pokémon are OHKOed.
-Type: Fire is certainly not the best STAB in the game but you probably won’t be using it throughout most of your playthrough anyway (Fire Blast comes late and Ember is useless). Fire has a few annoying weaknesses but in most cases Arcanine doesn’t care because it kills things so efficiently.
-Match-ups: Erika - Ember is too weak to kill Weepinbell/Victreebel and Gloom/Vileplume quickly but Tangela can be 2HKOed in RB. Arcanine can still solo her because of Grass resistance and good power.
Koga – It can sweep through Koga just fine in RB. You should do ok in Yellow as it can take a few Psychics, and Venonat is a weakling.
Sabrina – No type advantage but you actually do ok here because you have enough bulk to take a hit and you are hitting against the weaker Defence stat.
Blaine – You can sweep with Dig.
Giovanni – In RB you should do ok with Dig, and most of the team lacks super-effective moves (Dugtrio has Dig but it can be avoided with a Dig of your own). In Yellow you have to be more careful because of Earthquake and Rock Slide, but you can still contribute.
Lorelei – You should stay away from her Water types, but Jynx is beatable.
Bruno – You can beat the fighting types as long as you are at a good enough level. There are better options for Onix in Yellow but you still have Dig.
Agatha – Dig smacks her Ghosts and Arbok around. You can beat Golbat on pure strength alone.
Lance - This isn’t a particularly good match-up. Aerodactyl walls you and Gyarados has Hydro Pump. You can beat the Dragons as long as your level is good enough (watch out for BubbleBeam).
Blue – Honestly the only things you’ll have trouble beating are Blastoise, Vaporeon, Gyarados and Sandslash. You have a good chance against everything else thanks to stats and/or movepool.
-Additional Comments: Arcanine is basically a Charizard clone in the sense that they should be treated in exactly the same way. It is hurt mainly by reliance on TMs, but if you are willing to give them to Growlithe then it is an excellent choice that will help you speed through the game.
-Slowpoke - Low Tier
-Availability: In RB, you can catch it as soon as you get the Super Rod, but it comes at level 15 and requires a fair amount of grinding. Alternatively you can wait until Surf and get it from the Seaform Islands at a higher level. In Yellow, you have to wait until you get Surf. You can catch it as a Slowpoke or a Slowbro in Yellow.
-Stats: Slowbro has an excellent 110 Defence, and is capable of taking hits from both sides. It has 75 Attack and 80 Special, which gives it average (but not outstanding) offensive capabilities. Unfortunately, it is incredibly slow, with only 30 Speed.
-Movepool: Slowpoke’s level up movepool isn’t bad (Psychic, Confusion and Headbutt are all usable options) although it appreciates the use of TMs/HMs. Thankfully, it has plenty to pick from. Surf, Ice Beam, Blizzard, Fire Blast, and Earthquake are all good options.
-Power: The main problem with Slowpoke/Slowbro is its abysmal speed. It is almost always going to take a hit before it moves and the damage adds up. This is compounded by the fact that Slowbro often can’t OHKO if it can’t hit for super-effective damage which means it often has to take at least 2 hits to kill things. Although Slowbro’s bulk helps with this problem, it prevents Slowbro from sweeping through multiple enemies efficiently.
-Type: Water and Psychic is a great STAB combination and it allows him to hit for super-effective damage in some important battles. The Bug weakness it has is basically irrelevant, and the Electric and Grass weaknesses can be worked around.
-Match-ups: Koga – Psychic allows you to do good things. The slow speed can be a problem though. It can leave you vulnerable to Smokescreen, Disable, Sleep Powder, Supersonic and Evasion.
Sabrina – You can beat her, but your low speed is an issue here too. You can shrug off a few hits but you are vulnerable to Disable, Recover and Special drops. If you have a physical attack it will help a lot.
Blaine – High Defence and Fire resistance serve you well; watch out for Ninetales’s Confuse Ray in Yellow, and Stomp flinches.
Giovanni – You can win thanks to coverage alone, and Persian can’t do much to you anyway. Be careful around Thunder in Yellow though.
Lorelei – This is an even match since you can’t do much to each other at all. STAB Psychic gives you an advantage but there are better choices for this battle that will allow you to finish this battle much faster.
Bruno – You can’t lose here. Your STABs cover everything just fine.
Agatha – Psychic is effective against here but your Speed will screw you over. Get ready to deal with confusion, sleep and paralysis.
Lance - If you have an Ice attack then you are good to go. It can beat Gyarados but there are superior choices.
Blue – You should be ok to take on Pidgeot, Rhydon, Exeggutor, Arcanine, Venusaur, Charizard, Sandslash, Ninetales, and Flareon.
-Additional Comments: Slowbro has some strong points, but ultimately it is a horribly slow Pokémon that initially arrives at a low level, evolves late and isn’t even strong enough to make putting up with the low speed worth it.
-Kangaskhan - Low Tier
-Availability: It can only be caught in the Safari Zone. This is a problem because it means you are left in the hands of the Safari Zone capture mechanics. It doesn’t help that Kangaskhan is a rare Pokémon with a low capture rate. Unless you can very lucky, you will be looking for it for a long time. It also comes at a level that will probably be lower than your team’s average, but it is powerful and can grind up quite easily.
-Stats: Kangaskhan is built as a physical sweeper with its 95 Attack and 90 Speed. Although they aren’t jaw-droppingly awesome, they are good enough for in-game purposes. With 105 HP and 80 Defence it can take physical hits comfortably. However, 40 Special is poor and powerful special attacks will do a lot of damage to Kangaskhan.
-Movepool: Kangaskhan only learns Normal moves by level-up, although they have plenty of neutral coverage so you could almost get away with just running a mono-Normal moveset. However, Kangaskhan has an extensive TM/HM movepool. It has Earthquake and Rock Slide which will complement the Normal coverage well. Kangaskhan also has a large special movepool, capable of getting Surf, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Fire Blast and Thunderbolt. However, Kangaskhan’s low Special limits the use of these and there are better choices for these moves.
-Power: Kangaskhan is a strong attacker thanks to its decent attack and great physical movepool. It can comfortably run through the weaker trainers in the game easily. It often can’t OHKO stronger opponents with its STAB but it should have no problem 2HKOing things at the very least.
-Type: Normal has no super-effective coverage unfortunately, but it does hit neutral on everything except Rock types and the 3 Ghosts, both of which are covered by Earthquake. Normal has one weakness and one immunity, though both are mostly irrelevant for in-game playthroughs.
-Match-ups: Koga – In RB you may struggle a bit unless you have Earthquake already because they have good bulk. However, they can’t do much back to you either. In Yellow, you have Rock Slide for his bugs, but they are hitting you on your weak Special and Venomoth may be a difficult opponent.
Sabrina – This is an interesting match-up because you both do heavy damage to each other. They hit you on your Low Special and you hit back at their low Defence. This battle will probably come down to level.
Blaine – You have either Rock Slide or Earthquake and can attempt a sweep. However, Arcanine’s Fire Blast hits you very hard and can burn you.
Giovanni – Earthquake is a good choice here since it covers the stronger Pokémon on his team, and Dugtrio and Persian should be beaten with brute force. Even Surf could be a viable option! Thunder is really the only thing that you care about here.
Lorelei – You have Rock Slide but they are hitting you on your low Special so be careful.
Bruno – Hitmonlee and Machamp are brutal with their Fighting moves, but the others should be easily beaten.
Agatha – You do nicely here. Earthquake and Rock Slide cover everything and you have the power to beat her quickly. As usual you can lose if you are unlucky, but that’s assumed.
Lance – Rock Slide covers his stronger Pokémon and Dragonair are easy to beat. Gyarados will hit you for large damage with Hydro Pump. This is harder in Yellow since he has more special attacks.
Blue – It depends on what you taught him. Earthquake gets Jolteon, Magneton and the Fire types. Rock Slide hits Charizard, Pidgeot and Gyarados. You can contribute here, but as usual look out for Special moves.
-Additional Comments: Kangaskhan is Low simply because it is one of the most unavailable Pokémon in the game. It is a decent Pokémon in its own right, but unless you get very lucky in obtaining it you’ll be looking for it for a while. Any time you gain from using Kangaskhan will probably be insufficient for the purposes of making up for lost time looking for it. If you do get lucky and catch it quickly then it can be awesome, but actually PLANNING to have it as part of your team and specifically looking for it is not recommended.
-Chansey - Low Tier
-Availability: Chansey is probably the most unavailable Pokémon in the whole game. It is a rare Pokémon with low catch rate. What’s worse is that it is a Safari Zone Pokémon which means you have little control over whether you will successfully catch it or not. The odds are stacked against you and you will probably be looking for this for a long time.
-Stats: Chansey’s stat distribution is quite unique. Chansey has a ridiculous 250 HP. Backed up by 105 Special, Chansey absolutely cannot be defeated by any special attack, ever. The high Special also makes it a powerful attacker. On the other hand, it only has 5 Attack and Defence. Although the massive HP stat helps with physical attacks somewhat, don’t be surprised when random things like Weezing’s Sludge 2HKO you. Chansey is a bit on the slow side with 50 Speed, but as long as you are at a decent level you should go first most of the time.
-Movepool: Sadly, Chansey’s level up movepool is quite useless. It only learns physical attacks, which do laughable damage, along with a bunch of insignificant support moves. On the plus side, Chansey’s TM compatibility is insane! Between Ice Beam/Blizzard, Thunderbolt, BubbleBeam, Fire Blast, Psychic and SolarBeam, Chansey can throw together a moveset catering to your teams needs. Another thing that can’t be over-looked is its access to Softboiled. With this move in hand, Chansey can become the ultimate support Pokémon by healing its wounded team mates, saving you a trip to the Pokémon centre. Given its incredible HP score, Chansey is more than capable of performing in this role, and it is the only Pokémon able to do so anyway. Finally, Chansey has Thunder Wave which isn’t a required move but it allows it to make up for its low Speed in important battles.
-Power: Chansey is mainly held back by its lack of Special STAB. It can have trouble getting around some Pokémon that aren’t weak to one of its moves. Kadabra, Alakazam and Hypno in particular can cause problems. Still, Chansey has amazing coverage backed by 105 Special, allowing it to kill teams just fine on its own. Chansey’s low Speed can cause problems occasionally, but against most under-levelled you’ll go first anyway.
-Type: It has no use for its Normal STAB thanks to its useless Attack score. Chansey sort of wishes it had more resistances, but it doesn’t really need them. Only powerful Fighting attacks (which are not that common) have a chance to OHKO it without a critical hit, and special attacks do laughable damage to it.
-Match-ups: Koga – Psychic can be used to sweep here if you have it. In RB, you’ll be attacked from the physical side so you may struggle to sweep unassisted. In Yellow, you are much better placed thanks to your special bulk cushioning Psychic.
Sabrina – You start out with an advantage because you shrug off all of their hits. They have high Special stats though so they can survive your hits. You can’t lose unless you suffer several Special drops. Thunder Wave is a useful option here.
Blaine – The fire attacks you will face are easily shrugged off. The physical attacks are more of an issue, although watching Arcanine maim itself with Take Down recoil is satisfying! BubbleBeam is your strongest option here.
Giovanni – BubbleBeam and Ice Beam/Blizzard will cover everything except Persian. You must be careful though, as this is a physically based team and a full sweep is difficult.
Lorelei – On the plus side, you take nothing from their Ice and Water attacks. On the down side, all of her Pokémon have physical attacks except Slowbro, who can set up Amnesia. Lapras is the biggest threat with Body Slam. Thunderbolt covers most of her Pokémon just fine.
Bruno – BubbleBeam/Ice Beam/Blizzard wrecks Onix and Psychic covers everything else. Hitmonchan is a joke, especially in Yellow. Hitmonlee and Machamp are more dangerous thanks to their Fighting attacks.
Agatha – All of her Pokémon can’t really do much to Chansey directly but your low Speed leave you vulnerable to status moves. If luck is on your side then this won’t be an issue though.
Lance – BoltBeam covers everything. This is a bit easier in Yellow because there are more special attacks but everything has at least 1 physical attack. This will make a full solo difficult, but as long as you have the right moves then you can at least contribute.
Blue – What to teach Chansey governs what you can kill. Everything except Alakazam has at least 1 physical attack but not all of his Pokémon can do much with them. Basically, just pick off what you can with the moves you have and leave the rest to something else.
-Additional Comments: Chansey is definitely a good Pokémon if you can get your hands on it. But that’s the problem. Catching it is difficult and can take ages. Much like all of the rare Safari Zone Pokémon, you can waste precious time catching this, and any time that you save by having this on your team will probably not be enough to make up for this.
-Tangela - Low Tier
-Availability: In RB it is caught after you get Surf south of Pallet Town. It isn’t too difficult to find usually but it needs some time to catch up to the rest of your team. Annoyingly, there aren’t any particularly good spots to grind it, although the Power Plant and Seaform Islands are ok choices. In Yellow, it is purely a Safari Zone Pokémon and is therefore harder to obtain (though it can be obtained sooner).
-Stats: Tangela has good stats overall. 115 Defence and 100 Special allows it to take all kinds of hits. It is a bit slow though, and its Attack is disappointing.
-Movepool: Tangela’s movepool is horrible. It is capable of learning Grass and Normal attacks. Because of its low Attack, its Normal attacks are mostly worthless. What’s worse is that it can’t learn Razor Leaf or Petal Dance, which leaves it with SolarBeam and Mega Drain as its best options. This limits its overall power. It does have access to the status powders though, which helps it defeat things.
-Power: Tangela is really held back by its movepool. To get around anything with resistance to Grass, it has to resort to Bind-trapping and its status moves to win, neither of which is particularly fast. Even against opponents that lack Grass resistance, it often can’t OHKO anything because Mega Drain is a weak attack and SolarBeam takes 2 turns. It can OHKO things with a Grass weakness, but that’s it.
-Type: Grass really is a mixed bag as an attacking type. It does hit some important Pokémon super-effectively, but it’s also resisted by a large number of Pokémon. The same applies from a defensive point of view. Grass has some good resistances but it also has some irritating weaknesses to Flying, Ice, Poison and Fire (and Bug but that isn’t that important). Tangela’s good bulk does help with the weaknesses a bit though, as long as you don’t get overly reckless.
-Match-ups: Sabrina – You aren’t that good here. You are outsped, Psychic does quite a bit of damage and you can’t do much back to her.
Blaine – You are pretty useless here. You can’t really do anything useful here unless you have an extreme aount of luck on your side.
Giovanni – This is one of your better match-ups. Grass hits Dugtrio, Rhyhorn and Rhydon. Nidoqueen and Nidoking can’t do much to you. Persian is a weakling that you can take out just fine. You can actually solo here, which is rare for Tangela.
Lorelei – Grass is super-effective on most of her team, but Ice is super-effective back. Slowbro can be beaten just fine but there are better choices for everything else.
Bruno – This is an ok match-up. You kill Onix and you can take on the fighting types thanks to your high Defence and their low Special.
Agatha – Don’t bother. You can’t touch anything here and they have their way with you with their annoying movesets.
Lance – Gyarados is the thing you stand the greatest chance against. Aerodactyl is doable in RB thanks to its lack of Flying moves (watch for Supersonic). In RB, you can take their hits but you can’t do much back (you may need to resort to status moves). In Yellow, 2 of the Dragons have Ice moves.
Blue – Your best match-ups are Rhydon, Blastoise, Sandslash, Magneton, Vaporeon, Jolteon and Cloyster. Watch for Ice attacks from the Water types.
-Additional Comments: Tangela has nice stats but its movepool is just too small to make this a good choice for an efficient run. It is the worst Grass type in the game and it is incapable of doing much of anything that would make it a worthwhile choice.
-Kabuto - Mid Tier
-Availability: It is obtained from the Dome Fossil. You can obtain it as soon as you get Surf. It comes at level 30 and starts off a bit slowly. However, Kabuto catches up quickly thanks to being able to grind easily at the Pokémon Mansion. It evolves at level 40, which doesn’t actually take that long from the level that you obtain it.
-Stats: Although Kabuto isn’t particularly powerful stat wise, Kabutops has good stats overall. 115 Attack is nothing to scoff at. 70 Special is not that bad for the purposes of Surf, 80 Speed is fast enough for in-game, and it also has decent 60/105/80 defences.
-Movepool: It has a small movepool but it gets everything it needs without any TM support. Slash is awesome from 115 Attack, and Surf from 70 Special is an acceptable secondary attack. It also gets Submission, Ice Beam and Blizzard but it does not need any of these to be successful. The main downside is its lack of physical STAB, but Slash is a good alternative.
-Power: Kabuto is mediocre but you don’t have to put up with it for long. When it evolves, Kabutops becomes a great sweeper. Slash can make short work of many teams thanks to its high Attack and decent Speed. Surf deals with the Rock types that resist it.
-Type: STAB on Water is not a bad thing to have in this game, especially because it deals with all of the Slash-resisting Rock types. From a defensive standpoint, Rock/Water has some interesting resistances. Normal resistance is so useful, especially because many things in the game are limited to STAB + Normal coverage. Kabutops flat-out walls some Pokémon, especially Fire and Flying types. Of course, Rock/Water has some annoying weaknesses too (especially Grass), so you need to be careful when these types pop up in important battles (using something else is safer but Kabutops can still win on power alone).
-Match-ups: Sabrina – Slash is brutal against her. At this point you should be able to out-speed and sweep her entire team.
Blaine – You can’t possibly lose here unless you get extremely unlucky. You wall his whole team completely and you can hit them with Surf.
Giovanni – You can sweep with Surf (Slash is fine for Persian), but look out for Thunder and Earthquake in Yellow.
Lorelei – Aside from Jynx, her team is rather bulky. Slash hits everything but a full sweep is asking a lot of Kabutops. Its lack of Rock Slide is really noticable here.
Bruno – Onix is beaten with Surf. You should probably stay away from Hitmonlee and Machamp (you can beat them but their Fighting attacks are brutal. Hitmonchan is too weak to be that much of an issue unless you get surprised by Counter!
Agatha – This is a bit tricky. You should beat Golbat and Arbok but the Ghosts are immune to Slash and can take Surf easily. One of them has Mega Drain. Stay away from the Ghosts.
Lance – You are good to go in RB because you wall Aerodactyl and all of the Dragons. Gyarados can leave a bit of a dent with Hydro Pump though. This is harder in Yellow where you have to deal with Thunderbolt and Thunder. Aerodactyl still can’t touch you and the Ice Beam/BubbleBeam Dragonair is beatable.
Blue – You actually do really well against Blue. You can take on Pidgeot, Alakazam (Slash destroys it), Rhydon, Exeggutor, Charizard, Arcanine, Ninetales and Flareon. The Water types are doable, as is Sandslash (Earthquake is powerful against it though).
-Additional Comments: This comes a bit late and starts off a bit weak, but Kabutops is a powerful team member with good stats and a small but precise movepool that has strong match-ups against many of the important trainers that it will likely face during its time on your team. You could do a lot worse.
Also, I thought it might be a good idea to have a revised 'to-do' list at least until Mekkah updates next:
Bulbasaur (RB)
Cubone
Hitmonlee
Horsea
Koffing
Ponyta
Porygon
Psyduck
Seel
Squirtle (Y)
Staryu
Voltorb
I think that's correct (well, beside RB Bulbasaur, but I'm not sure if it was intentional or not), although it assumes that all the entries submitted since the last update will be accepted, which they may not be.
Hmm, well, I'm not sure if bumping is against the rules, but I would really like to participate in that. For example, I think Red Gyarados is way overrated ingame.
I think they have him Top-tier (remember, this is when Shinies had better stats than their counterparts, and because you don't have to baby a Magikarp).
How about we focus on RBY for now, and once we are done, we can invade their thread? Cool with everyone? :P
Popping in to say that shinies don't necessarily have better stats than normal Pokemon in GSC.
Bulbapedia said:
For those of you who missed it (or don't care), I decided to do a Red version run. However, I somehow missed the fact that some of the Pokemon that I was going to use were already going to be used by somebody else. As such, I'll be changing my planned roster to:
Weedle
Jigglypuff
Traded Nidoran (F) AKA SPOT
Mankey
Staryu
Scyther
I've already played past the second Gym, so I might as well mention my thoughts on how my current team is doing:
Weedle
Jigglypuff
Traded Nidoran (F) AKA SPOT
Mankey
Staryu
Scyther
I've already played past the second Gym, so I might as well mention my thoughts on how my current team is doing:
Weedle, like Caterpie, requires a fair bit of babying. It takes all of the Viridian Forest Bug Catchers to evolve it once, and constant switching to evolve it again. Unfortunately, even after it became Beedrill, it only did well against Bug Catchers, thanks to the amount of Pokemon that resist Poison. When it learned Fury Attack, it became a bit better, but not enough to be good, as it now has to choose between a weak attack and an inconsistent one. While it hasn't learned Twineedle yet, I'm a bit worried about the amount of improvement it would have.
Current thoughts: Low, and it'll take a lot of work to make me change my mind.
Current thoughts: Low, and it'll take a lot of work to make me change my mind.
First of all, before you can get SPOT, as she's affectionately called, you need a Nidoran (M), which as you know, is easily better than his female counterpart, thanks to Horn Attack. However, because I was going to trade it, that means there are 2 specific things you shouldn't do: use exclusive TMs on him (which isn't too bad), and not evolving him at all (yeah, this is pretty bad). I can't really say much about SPOT herself, other than the fact that you should do the trade after you defeat Misty, and I did one fight between that battle and this post, and SPOT's Poison Sting only 3HKOed a Caterpie. Thankfully, she got enough boosted exp to evolve from that one fight. Seeing as how that was the most recent fight, I have no impression on it as a Nidoqueen.
Current thoughts: It's probably your best bet on using Nidoran (F) if you're playing Red, but only advisable in Red.
Current thoughts: It's probably your best bet on using Nidoran (F) if you're playing Red, but only advisable in Red.
You can find Jigglypuff in Route 3, at the levels 3, 5, and 7. I decided to find a level 7 one, and guess how long it took me? While I wasn't keeping track, I resetted every time I went what felt like 30 minutes without finding one, and since I restarted 3 times, I'd say it took 1 hour and 40 minutes to find a level 7 Jigglypuff, despite the fact that Jiggs' encounter rate is 10%.
Finding it aside, it's also frustrating to use unless you're willing to part with TM12, TM01, and a Moon Stone. Evolving it isn't too much to worry about, as aside from Body Slam (which comes at level 34), it's level-up movepool is garbage (no damaging moves until level 9) and its stats aren't much better, with its massive HP held back by pitiful Defense and Special. As a Jigglypuff, it was constantly reliant on Sing to perform adequately, and that should speak for itself. As a Wigglytuff, it's actually pretty good, with actually good bulk now, and much more usable Attack, although Mega Punch and Water Gun combined fall short of obliterating everything in sight.
Current thoughts: Low Tier. It requires a large amount of support to perform adequately.
Finding it aside, it's also frustrating to use unless you're willing to part with TM12, TM01, and a Moon Stone. Evolving it isn't too much to worry about, as aside from Body Slam (which comes at level 34), it's level-up movepool is garbage (no damaging moves until level 9) and its stats aren't much better, with its massive HP held back by pitiful Defense and Special. As a Jigglypuff, it was constantly reliant on Sing to perform adequately, and that should speak for itself. As a Wigglytuff, it's actually pretty good, with actually good bulk now, and much more usable Attack, although Mega Punch and Water Gun combined fall short of obliterating everything in sight.
Current thoughts: Low Tier. It requires a large amount of support to perform adequately.
Twineedle should help a lot because its SE on the various Grass and Poison types you fight.
Yeah but he also has a really poor coverage movepool (Thrash, Surf, and Icy Wind off a 60 base Special Attack)...but ok, I'll wait for this thread to be done to go in-depth for why I don't like Gyarados in-game GSC.
Yeah but he also has a really poor coverage movepool (Thrash, Surf, and Icy Wind off a 60 base Special Attack)...but ok, I'll wait for this thread to be done to go in-depth for why I don't like Gyarados in-game GSC.
In regards to Nidoran, I really think both genders need to be redone because the current entry in the OP is a combined entry for both. Yeah, I guess they are essentially the same thing, but I don't like the idea of combining them because they are still separate pokemon with slightly different stats and movepools.
I don't think the traded Nidoran need separate entries from Nidoran caught in the wild especially because both are Top tier anyway, but the traded ones should be mentioned in the entries explaining the advantages and disadvantages of using it over one caught earlier in the wild (probably in the Availability section).
I don't think the traded Nidoran need separate entries from Nidoran caught in the wild especially because both are Top tier anyway, but the traded ones should be mentioned in the entries explaining the advantages and disadvantages of using it over one caught earlier in the wild (probably in the Availability section).
I just got the Rainbowbadge, so I guess now's a good time to tell how things are going.
You know how the last thing I said about it was that "it would take a lot of work for me to change my mind [about it being Low]"? Well, it turns out Twineedle is awesome, OHKOing anything weak to it, barring Muk and Koffing so far. The fact that Poison-types are going to be commonplace gives Beedrill even more good news; however, while Twineedle improves its performance overall, its performance against Pokemon that aren't Bug-weak is only average. However, despite this, I believe it is salvageable, and it has exceeded my expectations. By the way, Beedrill absolutely destroys Celadon Gym. Tangela, the only Pokemon in the entire Gym that can take a Twineedle, is no threat to Beedrill, at least in just one turn, due to Beedrill's 4x resistance to Grass-type moves as well as Tangela's pitiful Attack.
Current opinion: Mid Tier.
Current opinion: Mid Tier.
Note: The reason why I chose to use traded Nidoran (F) is because I wanted a "control" Pokemon, one which I know is good. I also wanted to see the in-game viability of this traded Pokemon in particular.
The first battles SPOT had as a Nidoqueen weren't much better than when she was a Nidoran, with neutral Poison Sting being a 4HKO instead of the previous 5HKO. Her high bulk allowed her to take repeated hits, though I'd prefer 2HKOing with Horn Attack in comparison to teaching one of my Pokemon Seismic Toss and BubbleBeam to achieve a similar result. Once she learned Body Slam, she became able to 2HKO enemies on a regular basis, and her bulk meant she could stay in for a good amount of time. Also, boosted experience it awesome, especially on a Pokemon as solid as Nidoqueen, which makes her even better.
Current opinion: My opinion on SPOT has remained the same, and I feel it deserves a mention in the Nidoran (F) entry.
The first battles SPOT had as a Nidoqueen weren't much better than when she was a Nidoran, with neutral Poison Sting being a 4HKO instead of the previous 5HKO. Her high bulk allowed her to take repeated hits, though I'd prefer 2HKOing with Horn Attack in comparison to teaching one of my Pokemon Seismic Toss and BubbleBeam to achieve a similar result. Once she learned Body Slam, she became able to 2HKO enemies on a regular basis, and her bulk meant she could stay in for a good amount of time. Also, boosted experience it awesome, especially on a Pokemon as solid as Nidoqueen, which makes her even better.
Current opinion: My opinion on SPOT has remained the same, and I feel it deserves a mention in the Nidoran (F) entry.
Wigglytuff didn't really stand out in this stretch of the game, mostly because of how much better everybody else has become, while Wiggs stayed entirely the same. Its performance right now is just not too notable.
Current opinion: My opinion on Jigglypuff has not changed. I still believe it's one of the lower Lows, and a Pokemon that requires a lot of constant support to be useful.
Current opinion: My opinion on Jigglypuff has not changed. I still believe it's one of the lower Lows, and a Pokemon that requires a lot of constant support to be useful.
So far, Mankey is reminding me of Sandshrew, with a few differences here and there. They both have a high crit move at their disposal (with Sandshrew's being superior) and they both greatly appreciate Dig, almost to the point of necessity in Mankey's case. The key differences between them are that Mankey's STAB (which it can't get in Red until Celadon City) is commonly resisted, Mankey's faster but frailer, and Mankey evolves 6 levels later. As you can tell, I currently think of Mankey as a lesser Sandshrew. Despite this, Mankey itself is a capable Pokemon, albeit a frail one that depends on TMs for coverage and STAB. Speaking of STAB, it doesn't really want to use it, because Fighting is resisted by so many things and Submission's recoil makes its defenses seem even worse than they already are.
Current opinion: Mid Tier. It has good power, but its frailty means it probably won't last long without requiring healing.
Current opinion: Mid Tier. It has good power, but its frailty means it probably won't last long without requiring healing.
Beedrill can learn Mega Drain? I honestly didn't know that, but despite the rest of my team being unable to learn it, I probably won't teach it to 'drill, as it can just use Twineedle and Pin Missile on the myriad wild Tentacool of late-game. Of course, Mega Drain gives it a way to damage Rock-types, so I might as well teach it that so I can find out how well it does against Giovanni and Bruno.
Yes give Beedrill Mega Drain. There's absolutely no reason not to, even if Rock types are pretty scarce by the time you get Mega Drain.
Not sure about Weedle in Mid though. I read your description about its performance and it sounds like it has the qualities of a Low tier pokemon! I really have a hard time believing that a pokemon whose "performance against Pokemon that aren't Bug-weak is only average" could be higher than Low tier, especially considering that you are only passed the 4th gym. Just how well does it do against pokemon towards the end of the game that are fully evolved, especially if its strongest STAB has 50 Base Power (75 with STAB)?
I do think that it has a niche that puts it above Bottom tier, which it was placed in before the Low-Bottom merger, and I think that it is a decent Low tier pokemon that is better than some people think, but putting it in Mid is pushing it in my opinion. It may be that I have higher standards for Mid tier pokemon though...
Not sure about Weedle in Mid though. I read your description about its performance and it sounds like it has the qualities of a Low tier pokemon! I really have a hard time believing that a pokemon whose "performance against Pokemon that aren't Bug-weak is only average" could be higher than Low tier, especially considering that you are only passed the 4th gym. Just how well does it do against pokemon towards the end of the game that are fully evolved, especially if its strongest STAB has 50 Base Power (75 with STAB)?
I do think that it has a niche that puts it above Bottom tier, which it was placed in before the Low-Bottom merger, and I think that it is a decent Low tier pokemon that is better than some people think, but putting it in Mid is pushing it in my opinion. It may be that I have higher standards for Mid tier pokemon though...
Fera is Top Tier even without Ice Punch
That is all
Anyway.... any other untested mon here ?
I can't really argue with you on that, and thus I agree with you in that Weedle's Low, seeing as how you need to baby it for a while, it parforms inadequately until it gets Bug-type STAB, and then gets its 15 minutes of fame before going on the back burner for the rest of the game.
On a (somewhat) different note, Wigglytuff, being the failure that it is, is making me question the validity of Clefairy in Mid, as it's essentially a harder-to-find Jigglypuff that requires a similar amount of initial support to be good and whose only notable advantages are better bulk and slightly higher Speed. Thoughts?
EDIT: For untested mons, the first ones that come to (my) mind are Vulpix, Porygon, and Koffing.
On a (somewhat) different note, Wigglytuff, being the failure that it is, is making me question the validity of Clefairy in Mid, as it's essentially a harder-to-find Jigglypuff that requires a similar amount of initial support to be good and whose only notable advantages are better bulk and slightly higher Speed. Thoughts?
EDIT: For untested mons, the first ones that come to (my) mind are Vulpix, Porygon, and Koffing.
So what you're saying is that Venusaur is Top tier because it can set up on a Growlithe?
Taking 7 turns (Leech Seed + 6 Growths) to set up Venusaur and sweep doesn't sound very efficient when you could just straight up kill him without any setting up with the large number of other pokemon capable of doing so.
Venasaur is definitely top. But more importantly, he rips Blaine apart in so many different ways that it just goes to show how good he is, I merely listed one of them.
There's the obvious Body Slam route, where you just take out everything with Body Slam.
There's Toxic + Leech Seed + Growth
There's Leech Seed + Growth + Anything
There's Growth + Mega Drain
And there's Sleep Powder + Razor Leaf/Body Slam if you are overlevelled.
Obviously Body Slam is more efficient than the others, but the fact that you have so many ways of beating the gym he has a type disadvantage against is great considering other Pokemon can't do that. But yeah, he's definitely Top, I've been testing him as well as the 5 listed above and he's really good.
There's the obvious Body Slam route, where you just take out everything with Body Slam.
There's Toxic + Leech Seed + Growth
There's Leech Seed + Growth + Anything
There's Growth + Mega Drain
And there's Sleep Powder + Razor Leaf/Body Slam if you are overlevelled.
Obviously Body Slam is more efficient than the others, but the fact that you have so many ways of beating the gym he has a type disadvantage against is great considering other Pokemon can't do that. But yeah, he's definitely Top, I've been testing him as well as the 5 listed above and he's really good.
@Garud
I think RB Bulbasaur should be High. While it does well against Brock if it has Vine Whip, keep in mind that it would have to be level 13 to know Vine Whip, which means that it would be overlevelled for that point in the game to be good against Brock. Also, it really does not impress in the stretch of the game between Rock Tunnel and learning Razor Leaf unless you teach it Body Slam, which requires the use of an exclusive TM. I basically see RB Bulbasaur as a superior Oddish, thanks to getting it at the beginning of the game as well as learning Razor Leaf 8 levels earlier than Gloom learns Petal Dance, the latter of which means you'd have to either evolve Gloom after it falls on its face multiple times or evolving earlier but having Mega Drain as its best attack. However, I do not see these differences being enough to justify a difference of 2 tiers between the two.
I think RB Bulbasaur should be High. While it does well against Brock if it has Vine Whip, keep in mind that it would have to be level 13 to know Vine Whip, which means that it would be overlevelled for that point in the game to be good against Brock. Also, it really does not impress in the stretch of the game between Rock Tunnel and learning Razor Leaf unless you teach it Body Slam, which requires the use of an exclusive TM. I basically see RB Bulbasaur as a superior Oddish, thanks to getting it at the beginning of the game as well as learning Razor Leaf 8 levels earlier than Gloom learns Petal Dance, the latter of which means you'd have to either evolve Gloom after it falls on its face multiple times or evolving earlier but having Mega Drain as its best attack. However, I do not see these differences being enough to justify a difference of 2 tiers between the two.
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