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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
thank you for saying this because now i can list all the ways sandslash is better than excadrill!
...
ok who am i kidding, it's far inferior, but it does have the benefit of being able to survive a techniloom mach punch, conkeldurr drain punch, etc. it's not much, but it's something. sandslash actually has better defense than exca, making it less susceptible to priority. only problem is, a bunch of common scarfers like terrakion and latios outspeed it and can ohko or come close to it.
and hey let's not forget, sandslash has rapid spin, making it (under sand) the fastest ou rapid spinner there is. that's not bad if you need a quick spin or two. plus, it resists stealth rock. really, there's not much to complain about.
Keldeo in Sand is interesting, and a lot of people argue that Sand is weak to Rain, and Keldeo can form as a great check to Rain Teams, especially offensive Rain Teams which generally don't carry anything to beat Keldeo, rarely Latias / Latios. Keldeo in Sand is also an interesting topic because the majority of things that are used to beat Keldeo, (Jellicent, Latias, Celebi, etc), are dealt with by Choice Scarf / Band Tyranitar, who obviously sets up Sand on it's own. From experience from playing in Dream World, a metagame where Sand was around 80% usage among teams and Garchomp and Excadrill were allowed, Keldeo still performed very well. A combination of great dual STAB and good offensive stats means it is very hard to switch into, also added to the fact that Calm Mind Keldeo can essentially break Stall singlehandedly.
As for using Keldeo on a Sand Team in terms of effectiveness, I think I can attest to that. It removes a lot of the stuff Sand has troubles with, namely stuff like Gliscor and Skarmory. If you're using Stoutland or Sandslash, then it can pretty easily remove all the common physical walls that stand in the way of the aforementioned Sand Rush users, paving the way to sweep.
As for using Keldeo on a Sand Team in terms of effectiveness, I think I can attest to that. It removes a lot of the stuff Sand has troubles with, namely stuff like Gliscor and Skarmory. If you're using Stoutland or Sandslash, then it can pretty easily remove all the common physical walls that stand in the way of the aforementioned Sand Rush users, paving the way to sweep.
currently i'm testing a team on showdown that consists of: band ttar, scarf landorus, band terrakion, sr balloon tran, cm keldeo, and cb stout. the offensive pressure of so many threats in a row has proven to be fairly overwhelming for my opponents so far, and i've gotta say despite all the great pokes on this team, keldeo has been by far the star of the show. after being relentlessly pounded by three choice banders, keldeo can usually just come in, calm mind, and clean up. like jimbon said, band ttar and pursuit stoutland pretty much take care of the threats to a keldeo sweep. i can definitely see this team having trouble with smart users of tornadus-t, because i made the team in like three minutes, but thankfully i haven't found any yet. i'll test some more, make some modifications, and get back to you guys.
well ziah's sand team that got #1 on beta with like 1750 points had 5 choiced pokes so it's not necessarily a recipe for disaster. in fact, i think having a bunch of choiced mons just makes the game more fun to play. i enjoy hitting things hard and then cleaning up with setup sweepers, and that's what this team is built to do. admittedly it's not perfect (took me 3 minutes to make lol) but it's my style and i like it for what it is.
i need balloon for dragons, might try specs keldeo and rp terrakion though.
also if anyone wanted a look at that hail team i was talking about a couple pages ago, http://pastebin.com/QR9SGXVi
One of my most successful teams had 5 choice users :) don't count it out.
There are so many 'mons now who don't really need more than maybe one or two moves(see dragons and fighters etc.) that choice items really just act as free instant boosts.
Also the most success I've had with keldeo was also on a sand team. With both Ttar and genesect to remove lati@s.
Btw what was this ziah's team you're referring to lavos :) love choice teams
There are so many 'mons now who don't really need more than maybe one or two moves(see dragons and fighters etc.) that choice items really just act as free instant boosts.
Also the most success I've had with keldeo was also on a sand team. With both Ttar and genesect to remove lati@s.
Btw what was this ziah's team you're referring to lavos :) love choice teams
specially defensive hippowdon, specs latios, scarf latias, specs magnezone, band scizor, band terrakion. keep in mind it was bw1 so of course it gets wrecked by tornadus-t like every other bw1 team. it was great in its day though, scarf latias is very unexpected (and unexpectedly good, too).
Ah yes, Choice teams are definitely very viable. I could never use them since I crave the ability to switch moves most of the time, but they can be very effective.
Of course I very rarely have any trouble with them since I tend to carry Protect on around half my team most of the time. Choiced Pokemon are a lot less scary when you know exactly what they're going to do the next turn :P.
Of course I very rarely have any trouble with them since I tend to carry Protect on around half my team most of the time. Choiced Pokemon are a lot less scary when you know exactly what they're going to do the next turn :P.
Skarm Bliss will never work as it did before. Because they have a big problem: CB Terrakion. Neither can stop him. Plus, some other better cores have come. For ex: slowbro|jirachi/heatran and many others. But still Skarm+Bliss will always be a nice core to have as long as you can handle terrakion, reuniclus and some other pokemon. I have to admit this was my favorite core for my balanced teams and i miss it.
All in all, if you dont have to dont use Skarm+bliss dont, there are better cores
Use it only if it perfectly fits into your team
Yeah bw1 offense is beaten flat out beaten by tornadus-t, my choice team was just scarf mence, band dragonite, scarf magenite, band scizor, scarf haxorus, and lo starmie. Starmie got rid of those hazards.
Anyway, first off I find chan/skarm to be awesome. A staple for my rain stalls in particular.
Anyway, first off I find chan/skarm to be awesome. A staple for my rain stalls in particular.
oh lord no, not without the right support at least. remember in gen 4 when mixape beat skarmbliss easily? yeah, well, keldeo is mixape, except it's actually good. i'd say the cm set is most threatening to its success, since a +1 rain-boosted surf beats up on skarmory hard (ohko iirc, there's sturdy to contend with though) and a +1 secret sword will deal upwards of 80% even to eviolite 252/252 bold chansey. easy ohko on blissey and less defensively bulky chansey spreads.
also, cb terrakion is a huge problem for skarmbliss, as skarmory is very easily 2hko'd by cc after rocks, and probably 2hko'd even with leftovers and no rocks up. and that's not all, there's a ton of stuff nowadays that just gives skarmbliss hell. taunt gliscor, nasty plot thundurus-t, the list goes on and on.
edit: beaten on the cb terrak thing
Sure there's gunna be 'mons that beat up on skarm/chan but that's why you have the other 4 slots :) skarm/chan is great because of how many threats it can cover, based on its pure bulk alone; even if it's just switching in and forcing out a threat.
Amoonguss is a great addition to the core as keldeo really shouldn't be getting by it anytime; jellicent is also a welcome friend, who also maintains the hazards skarm/chan tend to lay.
Main point, sure keldeo takes a dump on skarm/chan, but that doesn't mean they make a terrible defensive core, far from it.
Amoonguss is a great addition to the core as keldeo really shouldn't be getting by it anytime; jellicent is also a welcome friend, who also maintains the hazards skarm/chan tend to lay.
Main point, sure keldeo takes a dump on skarm/chan, but that doesn't mean they make a terrible defensive core, far from it.
been trying to think of a decent transition topic for a while now, and then it hit me: i haven't seen a hippowdon on ladder for weeks. what happened to this big boy? is it completely useless now due to all the breloom, keldeo, and tornadus-t running around? or has it just fallen out of the limelight for a short time, soon to return once the rain-centric meta calms down?
discuss
discuss
It's been a while since I used this team (before Genesect/Gothitelle), but I ran a double sand team with standard Hippowdon and CB Tyranitar. Tyranitar usually fell to bad prediction on my end, but the big hippo is as sturdy as ever. Rain teams give it trouble, sure, but playing badly against a playstyle doesn't make a Pokemon bad. It pairs nicely with Skarmory and SpDef Heatran, and with a Water resist somewhere else it's pretty hard to break the trio.
Latias @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 148 HP / 24 SAtk / 84 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Calm Mind
- Recover
Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Superpower
Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 SDef
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Slack Off
- Stealth Rock
Heatran @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature
- Lava Plume
- Protect
- Roar
- Stone Edge
DON'T QUESTION MY HEATRAN OKAY? I just really hated Volcarona, and this worked. ...once or twice, I think. Although hitting Tornadus-T with Stone Edge is hilarious.
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Atk / 232 Def
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Spikes
- Whirlwind
Starmie @ Life Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 6 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 148 HP / 24 SAtk / 84 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Calm Mind
- Recover
Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Superpower
Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 SDef
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Slack Off
- Stealth Rock
Heatran @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature
- Lava Plume
- Protect
- Roar
- Stone Edge
DON'T QUESTION MY HEATRAN OKAY? I just really hated Volcarona, and this worked. ...once or twice, I think. Although hitting Tornadus-T with Stone Edge is hilarious.
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Atk / 232 Def
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Spikes
- Whirlwind
Starmie @ Life Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 6 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
Hippowdon is a monstrously bulky animal in OU, but TBH I think it partly has to do with the hype from the "Euthansia" RMT comimg down. I always enjoyed using Hippowdon outside of double sand inducers because you lacks Tyranitar's exploitable 4x Fighting weakness. However, I don't think Hippowdon is going to have a resurgence of usage like you suspect. Right now, Tyranitar utility of Pursuit trapping the like of Choiced-locked Tornadus-T is too valuble to pass up. The other reason is the resurgence of Tyranitar's Choice Band set, which has been considered recently to be 1st choice on Tyranitar's new analysis. Weather starter's have always found themselves popping in and out for just one-turn so they can preserve themselves for weather wars. So what is the best way to impact the game if you can only stay in for one turn?
That's right, fire off hideously powerful STAB Stone Edge's that even the likes of Skarmory have trouble taking. Rock is a great STAB type (Terrakion!!!) and that untapped potential for power has been sitting mostly under people noses for a long time because of the popularity of the SR set. The appeal to cause this much damage has also spread to likes of Politoed with Choice Specs, which is actually its first set on its new analysis as well. THIS is the advantage that Tyranitar has over Hippowdon; to cause a large amount of damage over a relatively short period time that the weather inducer will stay in.
edit: phew new number of posts
that's a boss team, dude. i am impressed. a couple things - first, i'd go leftovers > lo on starmie to increase survivability, because having your spinner die on you is a real pain. i'd also go scald > surf, since you have another burn inducer on your team (heatran) and it's really funny to burn incoming ferrothorns and watch their trainer explode.
i have no idea what your latias spread does, i'd suggest just using 252 hp/252 speed, with 4 evs in defense or spatk or whatever. and ohmygod you use stone edge heatran too? brofist
just ran some calcs, and let it be known that your standard defensive hippowdon is the only weather starter that cannot be ohko'd by an attack from expert belt abomasnow B) another reason to prefer hippo > ttar!
The Latias spread was brought up in the analysis in C&C but was never approved; it's been a while since this team has seen any real changes. The Starmie does what I like Starmie to do - it hits hard, spins and plugs up some holes, such as the weakness to Rain teams that I had before and the pretty glaring Keldeo weakness.
Which brings me to another point - Sandstorm teams need to have a check to Keldeo to be successful. I'm not saying we should all start running Psyshock Celebi or Seed Bomb Amoonguss, I'm saying it needs to be checked. None of the other threats from BW2 really bother Sand too much. Thundy-T and Tornadus-T can be dealt with by SpDef Heatran and some prediction (and Rocks!) and Landorus-T falls to a multitude of physical walls. Genesect can be dealt with by Heatran and several Scarfers. Meloetta depends on the set, although if we assume it's Relic Mixed then Hippowdon fares pretty well against it if it can bait Close Combat. Keldeo, however, hits every type immune to Sandstorm super effectively with its STAB moves and takes out Reuniclus with HP Ghost. It beats both Hippowdon and Tyranitar (non-Scarf) one on one and turns common Sand walls into a loose pile of Poke-bricks. Starmie, Latias and Alakazam remain its best checks, while Celebi, Amoonguss, and Tornadus-T are shakier but still effective.
I need to stop using my Rain team and try to make a weatherless team again - last time it was a train wreck because I threw it together in ten minutes, whereas that Sand team and my current team took much longer to make. I just have tostomp the fuck out of Lost Cave get out of my Little Cup kick or something.
Which brings me to another point - Sandstorm teams need to have a check to Keldeo to be successful. I'm not saying we should all start running Psyshock Celebi or Seed Bomb Amoonguss, I'm saying it needs to be checked. None of the other threats from BW2 really bother Sand too much. Thundy-T and Tornadus-T can be dealt with by SpDef Heatran and some prediction (and Rocks!) and Landorus-T falls to a multitude of physical walls. Genesect can be dealt with by Heatran and several Scarfers. Meloetta depends on the set, although if we assume it's Relic Mixed then Hippowdon fares pretty well against it if it can bait Close Combat. Keldeo, however, hits every type immune to Sandstorm super effectively with its STAB moves and takes out Reuniclus with HP Ghost. It beats both Hippowdon and Tyranitar (non-Scarf) one on one and turns common Sand walls into a loose pile of Poke-bricks. Starmie, Latias and Alakazam remain its best checks, while Celebi, Amoonguss, and Tornadus-T are shakier but still effective.
I need to stop using my Rain team and try to make a weatherless team again - last time it was a train wreck because I threw it together in ten minutes, whereas that Sand team and my current team took much longer to make. I just have to