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Sorry to cause an argument, I really like this thread, but I feel I need to address this-
But that's still just efficiency. You can win any battle with any pokemon with sufficient levelling. How good a pokemon is really just based on how many levels it needs to be raised to win battles. That's why alakazam is better than weedle, because weedle needs to have a much more significant level advantage than alakazam does to win battles.
I also don't see how speed isn't important. What makes alakazam better than weedle is that he can get you through the game much faster. If speed isn't an issue then you might as well say that every pokemon is equal because they can all get you through the game eventually.
That's why I think a tier list is really only relevant for things like nuzlockes that place restrictions on how much you can train (eg. pokecentre limit). But even then, that's still just a measure of what pokemon can win battles with a limited amount of training.
Oh, but efficiency and speed are definitely factors, they are just not the end-all determining factor to see where a Pokemon ends up. We still have Weedle far, far below Abra on our list because we acknowledge that Abra just takes far less effort to beat your average opponent than Weedle does. But we don't want to take this to the extreme of "only use one Pokemon" since it leaves a number of interesting considerations out of the picture and would probably leave this thread without anything to discuss within a week's time.
For example, if you only use one Pokemon, then you can really just dump all your TMs on them and the matter of resource distribution is completely gone. We can't give Diglett credit for learning Dig naturally (which is a great asset), because the Charmander we're solo'ing the game with can just get it at any time.
Also, using one Pokemon will result in that Pokemon being so overleveled that differences between Pokemon become even more rare (which I think you said is a bad thing for discussion overall). Once adequately leveled, you'll just stomp through everything post-Misty pretty much - where's the fun in comparing a bunch of things that OHKO everything? It'll turn to nitpicky things like which one has the most PP.
I guess this will be a game of "let's educate the noob" because I haven't used either Sandshrew or Voltorb. But surely Voltorb needs Thunderbolt way more than Sandshrew needs Dig? Sandshrew learns Slash at level 17 and has an Attack somewhere between Charmeleon and Charizard. It evolves at level 22, giving at a Slash that is more powerful than Charizard's (and Charmeleon evolves much later than Sandshrew does anyway). I don't know, it seems like that would suffice for a while until you reach Earthquake (which I think you can get BEFORE Erika) and it is very unlikely that Dig AND Earthquake would be unavailable to it if you use it on your team. In other words, Sandshrew seems like it would still be a good pokemon even if Dig wasn't available to it.
If Thunderbolt isn't available to Voltorb then it seems like it would be the worst electric type in the game (it is the only one without an electric move of any sort in its level up movepool so it'll be using Tackle and Sonicboom to deal damage for a while), and it would be quite bad until you got to Thunder (and Thunder isn't as good a back-up to Thunderbolt as Earthquake is to Dig).
Nah, I agree with what you're saying, I just thought it was about the closest comparison possible. We should also factor in that Thunderbolt probably has less competition than Dig though, since Dig is in high demand even outside of Ground-types (you'll generally use only one of those), whereas Thunderbolt is only learned by other Electric types and some "movepool wide" Pokemon (Normal types plus Nido family about sums it up), and even in the case of the latter it tends to be just an expansion of versatility rather than needing a raw power move (which means it matters less if they don't get it).
Right, let's just go back to your original post. you are dumping bubblebeam, mega punch and dig onto squirtle just to own the game efficiently with him. the point is, charmander can also do the same, the only difference is that he doesn't get BubbleBeam (why do you need both bubblebeam and dig on wartortle is beyond me anyway considering water and ground have pretty similar coverage, both hit 2 types supereffectively while ground beats electric and poison too and water beats ground. electric is rare after surge and poison types are weak anyway). I don't see why you have to dump 3 TMs onto squirtle, 2 of which are the only copies you have in-game.
High Tier iinw is defined as something that can hold itself with consuming minimal resources. dumping 3 tms onto squirtle is definitely not minimal, especially when dig turns a bunch of meh-ish pokemon into decent ones (sandshrew, anyone?)
Well firstly, the only other thing worth giving bubbleam is rattata, as by the time you can get other waters that are worth preferential TM treatement you'll have surf anyway.
The difference with charmander is that he struggles early game, not just with the gyms, but with the hikers and places like the SS. Anne. Of course if you're soloing that isn't an issue, but we're not talking about soloing.
The main draw charmander has over the other starters is that he gets slash by level up. Problem is if he evolves he has to wait ages to get it, and even if he doesn't evolve he still has to wait awhile to get decent STAB.
Squirtle requires hardly any grinding seeing as he can beat Brock basically as soon as he learns bubble, and has a field day in Mt. Moon. If you give him mega punch, he then has a good match up with Misty too, which as has been said before is the most relevant Gym Leader in terms of tiering.
Dig isn't just for electrics, it's for extra PP, and it can saved for important battles where you want something stronger than mega punch that you know won't miss.
After you beat Misty, you now have a wartortle with bubblebeam, which is a semi-competitive move, and you usually don't see a move of that power on a second stage evolution that early on.
It's not like I said charmander is low tier, I just don't see what charmander offers over squirtle apart from being cool.
Oh, but efficiency and speed are definitely factors, they are just not the end-all determining factor to see where a Pokemon ends up. We still have Weedle far, far below Abra on our list because we acknowledge that Abra just takes far less effort to beat your average opponent than Weedle does. But we don't want to take this to the extreme of "only use one Pokemon" since it leaves a number of interesting considerations out of the picture and would probably leave this thread without anything to discuss within a week's time.
For example, if you only use one Pokemon, then you can really just dump all your TMs on them and the matter of resource distribution is completely gone. We can't give Diglett credit for learning Dig naturally (which is a great asset), because the Charmander we're solo'ing the game with can just get it at any time.
Also, using one Pokemon will result in that Pokemon being so overleveled that differences between Pokemon become even more rare (which I think you said is a bad thing for discussion overall). Once adequately leveled, you'll just stomp through everything post-Misty pretty much - where's the fun in comparing a bunch of things that OHKO everything? It'll turn to nitpicky things like which one has the most PP.
I think you'll find though that most pokemon that are good soloers are probably also good nuzlocke pokemon. TM distribution would be different, but for example wartortle with just bubblebeam after Misty is good both as a soloer and as a team player.
It seems like the tier list is basically assuming a nuzlocke that indirectly forces level restrictions anyway, so I probably don't need to harp on about how a nuzlocke tier list would be more relevant.
The list isn't based on what's better in a Nuzlocke run. It just has the (vague) requirement that having to backtrack to a Pokecenter is worse than not having to do so.
Nobody is saying Charmander has anything over Squirtle. The list just claims that both are very good. Of course, Squirtle is better, but not by a significant amount to the point where it deserves an extra tier above Charmander. The only reason Charmander is higher on the list is because it starts with a C instead of the S, and the C just so happens to come first in the alphabet.
Nah, I agree with what you're saying, I just thought it was about the closest comparison possible. We should also factor in that Thunderbolt probably has less competition than Dig though, since Dig is in high demand even outside of Ground-types (you'll generally use only one of those), whereas Thunderbolt is only learned by other Electric types and some "movepool wide" Pokemon (Normal types plus Nido family about sums it up), and even in the case of the latter it tends to be just an expansion of versatility rather than needing a raw power move (which means it matters less if they don't get it).
On the other hand, Thunderbolt is more valuable from a competitive point of view, which is a problem for someone who is doing an efficient run with the purpose of obtaining a competitive team. Not sure how heavily that weighs into tiering though...
Who the fuck plays RBY competitive on cartridges any more? Also, this list is purely for in-game purposes, so competitive stuff has literally zero bearing.
On the other hand, Thunderbolt is more valuable from a competitive point of view, which is a problem for someone who is doing an efficient run with the purpose of obtaining a competitive team. Not sure how heavily that weighs into tiering though...
Well ok, I guess it that comment was kinda stupid. I just meant that if you teach Thunderbolt to Voltorb then you can't give it to the Zapdos that you might want on your competitive team. Yes, technically you can make a competitive team at any point, so getting to the end of the game efficiently isn't as important, but getting to the end of the game is still useful to gain access to the elite 4 for training purposes (money for vitamins, easy stat exp., etc.). I do admit that it isn't a huge deal.
@ Son_of_Shadoo: I never got into competitive battling in 1st gen much but I do have friends who still battle each other on their carts for nostalgia. It probably isn't that common though.
Let's just forget I brought it up!
So... in that case are we making Voltorb and Magnemite High or...?
Well ok, I guess it that comment was kinda stupid. I just meant that if you teach Thunderbolt to Voltorb then you can't give it to the Zapdos that you might want on your competitive team. Yes, technically you can make a competitive team at any point, so getting to the end of the game efficiently isn't as important, but getting to the end of the game is still useful to gain access to the elite 4 for training purposes (money for vitamins, easy stat exp., etc.). I do admit that it isn't a huge deal.
@ Son_of_Shadoo: I never got into competitive battling in 1st gen much but I do have friends who still battle each other on their carts for nostalgia. It probably isn't that common though.
Let's just forget I brought it up!
So... in that case are we making Voltorb and Magnemite High or...?
Most people who plan to make competitive teams will probably use glitching and just duplicate the TMs anyway.
Also, by 'competitive' battling he probably meant people have teams of pokemon with virtually maxed out stats that are in tune with the competitive metagame.
Most people who plan to make competitive teams will probably use glitching and just duplicate the TMs anyway.
Also, by 'competitive' battling he probably meant people have teams of pokemon with virtually maxed out stats that are in tune with the competitive metagame.
Still depends imo, since it's basically a case of "one is better than the other in 1 version", might be better to show the distinction if we split the entries but idk
I seem to be confused about what this tier list is measuring. Just to clarify, what type of playthrough is this tiering? I know it's not speedruns or just trying to be about pure efficiency, but I'm still not sure exactly what type of playthrough it is.
I read the write-up for Squritle and IMO it needed a rewrite so I rewrote it. Let me know what you guys think.
Squirtle (RB): Top Tier
-Availability: Starter Pokemon
-Stats: Above Average
-Movepool: Squirtle has a very good movepool to choose from. With STAB Surf and Ice Beam/Blizzard/Earthquake for extra coverage.
-Power: Squritle's offensive stats are now sweeper material, but he can OHKO or 2HKO many threats.
-Type: Water
-Mathups:
--Brock: Squirtle should have Bubble at this point, which not only has STAB but is 4x Super Effective on Brock's Pokemon.
--Misty: Unless you overgrind to Level 24 and hope Bite will bring you victory, you will be walled by her Starmie.
--LT Surge: Wartortle can get pass Voltorb and Pikachu just fine due to their lack of strong Electric moves. Wartortle loses to Raichu, however.
--Erika: Wartortle can get the Ice Beam TM at this point to hit Erika's Pokemon for Super Effective damage but he will still have a hard time against this gym. Victreebell's Razor leaf is not only Super Effective but has a high Critical Hit Ratio, and Vileplume can use Mega Drain to hit for Super Effective and recover off previous damage. Tangela shouldn't be a threat due to his lack of Grass moves though.
--Koga: While Water isn't Super Effective on Poison, Koga's Pokemon do not enjoy taking Special Hits, including STAB Surf.
--Sabrina: Blastoise has the bulk to survive a Psychic or Psybeam and hit hard with a Physical move.
--Blaine: Blastoise can spam Surf to hit his Pokemon for Super Effective Damage.
--Giovanni: Same as Blaine.
--Lorelei: Blasotise is walled here. Not only due most of her Pokemon resist Water and Ice, but they have good defenses to take Physical Attacks, especially Slowbro and Cloyster.
--Bruno: Surf destroys his entire team due to Onix being 4x weak and the Fighting types having poor Specials.
--Agatha: If you have Earthquake or Dig, you can use that to hit her Physically-frail Pokemon. Ice Beam/Blizzard takes down Golbat.
--Lance: Surf takes down Aerodactyl while Ice Beam/Blizzard takes down the Dragons. However, Blastoise may have trouble with Gyarados as he resists Water and has the bulk to take on Ice moves.
--Gary: Surf takes down Arcanine and Rhydon, while an Ice move hits Pidgeot. Unfortunately, Gary's Alakazam is a lot more threatening than Sabrina's as Gary's knows Psychic. Gyarados once again shows up to bother Blastoise, and Venusaur has the bulk to take an Ice move and hit back with Razor Leaf.
Still depends imo, since it's basically a case of "one is better than the other in 1 version", might be better to show the distinction if we split the entries but idk
I actually like this idea. It would be a good compromise, and to be fair Magnemite is definitely less useful in RB than other electric types (it comes later than Voltorb, Pikachu and Jolteon, and Zapdos has a better movepool and is just better in every way). Same with Voltorb in Yellow.
Unless anyone thinks that this is a horrible idea, I'll go ahead and separate Magnemite into High (Yellow) and Mid (RB) in the next few days when I get time.
I read the write-up for Squritle and IMO it needed a rewrite so I rewrote it. Let me know what you guys think.
Squirtle (RB): Top Tier
-Availability: Starter Pokemon
-Stats: Above Average
-Movepool: Squirtle has a very good movepool to choose from. With STAB Surf and Ice Beam/Blizzard/Earthquake for extra coverage.
-Power: Squritle's offensive stats are now sweeper material, but he can OHKO or 2HKO many threats.
-Type: Water
-Mathups:
--Brock: Squirtle should have Bubble at this point, which not only has STAB but is 4x Super Effective on Brock's Pokemon.
--Misty: Unless you overgrind to Level 24 and hope Bite will bring you victory, you will be walled by her Starmie.
--LT Surge: Wartortle can get pass Voltorb and Pikachu just fine due to their lack of strong Electric moves. Wartortle loses to Raichu, however.
--Erika: Wartortle can get the Ice Beam TM at this point to hit Erika's Pokemon for Super Effective damage but he will still have a hard time against this gym. Victreebell's Razor leaf is not only Super Effective but has a high Critical Hit Ratio, and Vileplume can use Mega Drain to hit for Super Effective and recover off previous damage. Tangela shouldn't be a threat due to his lack of Grass moves though.
--Koga: While Water isn't Super Effective on Poison, Koga's Pokemon do not enjoy taking Special Hits, including STAB Surf.
--Sabrina: Blastoise has the bulk to survive a Psychic or Psybeam and hit hard with a Physical move.
--Blaine: Blastoise can spam Surf to hit his Pokemon for Super Effective Damage.
--Giovanni: Same as Blaine.
--Lorelei: Blasotise is walled here. Not only due most of her Pokemon resist Water and Ice, but they have good defenses to take Physical Attacks, especially Slowbro and Cloyster.
--Bruno: Surf destroys his entire team due to Onix being 4x weak and the Fighting types having poor Specials.
--Agatha: If you have Earthquake or Dig, you can use that to hit her Physically-frail Pokemon. Ice Beam/Blizzard takes down Golbat.
--Lance: Surf takes down Aerodactyl while Ice Beam/Blizzard takes down the Dragons. However, Blastoise may have trouble with Gyarados as he resists Water and has the bulk to take on Ice moves.
--Gary: Surf takes down Arcanine and Rhydon, while an Ice move hits Pidgeot. Unfortunately, Gary's Alakazam is a lot more threatening than Sabrina's as Gary's knows Psychic. Gyarados once again shows up to bother Blastoise, and Venusaur has the bulk to take an Ice move and hit back with Razor Leaf.
I don't mean to be rude but with the exception of the match-up section (the match-up for Misty in the old entry made me lol), along with the fact that the old one is missing a section, I actually like the old entry better.
You are being vague in some sections that were more detailed in the old one. For example, in the Type section you simply state 'Water'. It would be better if you actually talked about what makes Water a good or bad type in this game, like the old one did. Does Water have useful resistances? Does Water have good coverage? That sort of thing. In Stats, saying 'Above Average' doesn't tell me much. You should talk about things like whether it has a good Speed stat to outpace things, or whether it has good defensive stats to take hits, etc. In Availability, you should mention when it evolves. Availability isn't just about when you catch the pokemon, but whether the pokemon is actually useful when you get it, when the pokemon reaches its full strength (i.e. fully evolves), and how easy or difficult it is to get it to full strength.
In Movepool, I think you should at least mention BubbleBeam, since it provides a great STAB until Surf comes along. Match-ups are fine, though I think that you are making the Misty match-up sound worse than it is. Bite isn't even that hard to get to if you battle the trainers along the way to Bill's house first, and even if you don't want to do that then Mega Punch is available. Remember that Starmie can't do much back to Wartortle!
^ I agree with Atsync Hemp Man, you need to be a little more detailed about why. Assume that the reader only has very basic knowledge of RBY.
Ok, so I've been gone a while, but I'm back. What you may have noticed is that I've dropped Voltorb to Mid, so I think that's pretty accurate from here. Keeping the electrics as is, is fine. Although Atsync, while it's true Voltorb comes later in Yellow, you can get it as an Electrode level 42 in the power plant as soon as you beat Koga, which means it won't need any grinding, so I don't think it's tier would change based on it's availability.
To respond as to why certain things are where they are, I'll address them one at a time.
Ponyta: Ponyta is mid because it plays like a mid. It's useful, and it works, it's just inefficient in some areas and it relies on Normal-type moves way too much. But it has it's advantages. Moves like Stomp, Fire Spin and Body Slam allow Ponyta to buy turns through flinching, trapping and paralysis, meaning it's much more survivable, but this strategy is its only one as there are cases where Fire Blast and Hyper Beam won't get the KO and leave it vulnerable. Another for Ponyta's pros column is that it's stats are quite good, you could even argue that they are the best of all the fire types. But back on the negatives column, Ponyta is insanely slow to level, and requires TMs like Body Slam, Hyper Beam and Fire Blast to work efficiently. So that's why it's mid, workable and has a place on many teams, but has enough flaws to keep it down. Oh one more thing, with Sabrina, it's sort of implied that you fought Blaine before her because that's the ideal order for Ponyta to take. You should be the same level as Alakazam before fighting her though, and even though you have lower speed generally, your stat exp will bring your speed high enough to outspeed, because she exists in quite a high speed tier herself.
Horsea: Horsea isn't the worst water type in the game, I would say it's generally better than Seaking and Golduck, probably Krabby too. It's main problem is that it's outclassed by other various Pokemon, namely Staryu, Squirtle and Magikarp, in addition to being on-par with Poliwag who comes earlier. Seadra is essentially a stock-standard Water type, but lack of spectacular movepools and only slightly decent stats make it difficult to use. It can't use Normal-type moves as well as Gyarados, meaning it can't take on Water types very well. It doesn't come very early in the game, and when it does come, it comes next to Staryu in the same area. And then it begs to question, why would you use Horsea? Staryu has better stat distribution, can evolve earlier with a Water stone, gets Psychic typing through evolution, has a far wider movepool and has increased TM capacity. However, Horsea doesn't suck enough to put it in bottom, and it's usable, especially since you can teach it Surf right away. Mid seems about right.
Hitmonlee is high. I stand by this decision purely because it performs so well, and you might be surprised as to why. The thing is, Normal/Fighting combination is only resisted by 3 Pokemon: Gengar, Haunter and Ghastly. In addition, both types work off Hitmonlee's monster attack stat, and he gets great move variety. Finally he is the only Fighting type to get HJK in this game, as well as one of the few Pokemon to get Meditate. You get him at level 30, which is great because most of your team will be levels 28-32 at this point, and so he needs little grinding. There are a ton of Rock and Normal-type pokemon in the game for Hitmonlee to walk over, and he stays useful even throughout the Elite 4. Compared to the other Fighting-types in this game, he really outclasses all of them. Machamp is far too slow to be durable, so he's not that helpful. Hitmonchan learns mainly Special moves and doesn't KO anything ever. Mankey is ok with dig, but it's not a great choice overall. And finally Poliwrath's stats are so terrible (he's too well-rounded), that he makes poor use of both Surf and his Fighting-type moves. His only problems is that he can't hit Ghosts without Seismic Toss, he is very frail and that he needed Rock Slide/Dig/Earthquake and didn't get it. That's why he's High, he performs very well. Seriously try Hitmonlee, he's very useful.
Cubone is the worst Pokemon with a Ground typing bar none. I put him Bottom tier because he is slow, and can't take a Special attack to save his life. In addition, his best stat is his Defense, but is still outclassed by Pokemon like Cloyster who come with better stats, and Rhydon who has better typing to tank Physical hits. Since Fighting-type moves are virtually non-existant in this game, and Cubone is OHKO'd by any Special move it doesn't resist anyway, it would have functioned much better with an additional Rock typing. While it does get Ground-type moves naturally, they are much less accurate, and it will miss right where you don't want it. With Sleep, Paralysis and Confusion running around, combined with the commonality of Double Team and Minimize on Poison-types, Cubone will often find trouble getting his attacks off. This means you must spend your more accurate TMs like Earthquake and Dig on him, rather than using a Pokemon that learns these moves naturally and then using them on Pokemon like Charizard or Blastoise. He's somewhat usable, but never truly worth the use, and there are always better alternatives in all aspects. That's why I put him in Bottom.
That's my reasoning for those rankings Mekkah, hopefully those explain things a bit better.
Sorry dudes, I'll rewrite the top part to look better:
Squirtle (RB): Top Tier
-Availability: Starter Pokemon. Evolves at Level 16, which would be early in the game, and then again at Level 36, during the middle of the game.
-Stats: Blastoise has balanced stats. His offensive stats may not scream sweeper, but he can still hit hard. His defensive are also good and can let him take hits properly.
-Movepool: Squirtle has a very good movepool to choose from. From its STAB it learns Bubble and Water Gun through level-up, then gets the BubbleBeam TM after beating Misty, and finally the Surf HM in Fuscia City. He can also get the Ice Beam or Blizzard TM to hit Grass and Dragon types, and either the Dig or Earthquake TM to hit Electric types. Keep in mind the Dig TM is in high demand, and being that Electric Pokemon don't resist Water, Squritle does not need the Dig TM.
-Power: Squritle's offensive stats are now sweeper material, but he can OHKO or 2HKO many threats.
-Type: Water.
Offensively, Water is a great type that is only resisted by Water, Grass, and Dragon. Dragon and Grass can be hit by a Ice Beam, meaning only opposing Water types can truly wall Squirtle.
Defensively, Water is weak to Grass and Electric. Strong Electric moves are not common in the game, with only LT. Surge's Raichu having Thunderbolt. Grass types can be bothersome, especially since they Powder moves to status Squirtle. Matchups:
--Brock: Squirtle should have Bubble at this point, which not only has STAB but is 4x Super Effective on Brock's Pokemon.
--Misty: Starmie resists Water but is Physically Frail, either raising Wartortle to learn Bite or teaching him the Mega Punch TM can help him overcome Misty.
--LT Surge: Wartortle can get pass Voltorb and Pikachu just fine due to their lack of strong Electric moves. Wartortle loses to Raichu, however.
--Erika: Wartortle can get the Ice Beam TM at this point to hit Erika's Pokemon for Super Effective damage but he will still have a hard time against this gym. Victreebell's Razor leaf is not only Super Effective but has a high Critical Hit Ratio, and Vileplume can use Mega Drain to hit for Super Effective and recover off previous damage. Tangela shouldn't be a threat due to his lack of Grass moves though.
--Koga: While Water isn't Super Effective on Poison, Koga's Pokemon do not enjoy taking Special Hits, including STAB Surf.
--Sabrina: Blastoise has the bulk to survive a Psychic or Psybeam and hit hard with a Physical move.
--Blaine: Blastoise can spam Surf to hit his Pokemon for Super Effective Damage.
--Giovanni: Same as Blaine.
--Lorelei: Blastoise is walled here. Not only due most of her Pokemon resist Water and Ice, but they have good defenses to take Physical Attacks, especially Slowbro and Cloyster. However, keep in mind her Dewgong and Slowbro can't do much back to Blastoise, while Jynx doesn't even resist Water.
--Bruno: Surf destroys his entire team due to Onix being 4x weak and the Fighting types having poor Specials.
--Agatha: If you have Earthquake or Dig, you can use that to hit her Physically-frail Pokemon. Ice Beam/Blizzard takes down Golbat.
--Lance: Surf takes down Aerodactyl while Ice Beam/Blizzard takes down the Dragons. However, Blastoise may have trouble with Gyarados as he resists Water and has the bulk to take on Ice moves.
--Gary: Surf takes down Arcanine and Rhydon, while an Ice move hits Pidgeot. Unfortunately, Gary's Alakazam is a lot more threatening than Sabrina's as Gary's knows Psychic. Gyarados once again shows up to bother Blastoise, and Venusaur has the bulk to take an Ice move and hit back with Razor Leaf.
Better? I also edited the Misty and Lorelei battl, as I don't think its as bad as I hyped it out to be in the previous post.
Ok, so I've been gone a while, but I'm back. What you may have noticed is that I've dropped Voltorb to Mid, so I think that's pretty accurate from here. Keeping the electrics as is, is fine. Although Atsync, while it's true Voltorb comes later in Yellow, you can get it as an Electrode level 42 in the power plant as soon as you beat Koga, which means it won't need any grinding, so I don't think it's tier would change based on it's availability.
Well if you're going to put Voltorb in Mid then there isn't much point in spliting the Magnemite entry so I'll just leave Magnemite in Mid too. Problem solved!
Sorry dudes, I'll rewrite the top part to look better:
Squirtle (RB): Top Tier
-Availability: Starter Pokemon. Evolves at Level 16, which would be early in the game, and then again at Level 36, during the middle of the game.
-Stats: Blastoise has balanced stats. His offensive stats may not scream sweeper, but he can still hit hard. His defensive are also good and can let him take hits properly.
-Movepool: Squirtle has a very good movepool to choose from. From its STAB it learns Bubble and Water Gun through level-up, then gets the BubbleBeam TM after beating Misty, and finally the Surf HM in Fuscia City. He can also get the Ice Beam or Blizzard TM to hit Grass and Dragon types, and either the Dig or Earthquake TM to hit Electric types. Keep in mind the Dig TM is in high demand, and being that Electric Pokemon don't resist Water, Squritle does not need the Dig TM.
-Power: Squritle's offensive stats are now sweeper material, but he can OHKO or 2HKO many threats.
-Type: Water.
Offensively, Water is a great type that is only resisted by Water, Grass, and Dragon. Dragon and Grass can be hit by a Ice Beam, meaning only opposing Water types can truly wall Squirtle.
Defensively, Water is weak to Grass and Electric. Strong Electric moves are not common in the game, with only LT. Surge's Raichu having Thunderbolt. Grass types can be bothersome, especially since they Powder moves to status Squirtle. Matchups:
--Brock: Squirtle should have Bubble at this point, which not only has STAB but is 4x Super Effective on Brock's Pokemon.
--Misty: Starmie resists Water but is Physically Frail, either raising Wartortle to learn Bite or teaching him the Mega Punch TM can help him overcome Misty.
--LT Surge: Wartortle can get pass Voltorb and Pikachu just fine due to their lack of strong Electric moves. Wartortle loses to Raichu, however.
--Erika: Wartortle can get the Ice Beam TM at this point to hit Erika's Pokemon for Super Effective damage but he will still have a hard time against this gym. Victreebell's Razor leaf is not only Super Effective but has a high Critical Hit Ratio, and Vileplume can use Mega Drain to hit for Super Effective and recover off previous damage. Tangela shouldn't be a threat due to his lack of Grass moves though.
--Koga: While Water isn't Super Effective on Poison, Koga's Pokemon do not enjoy taking Special Hits, including STAB Surf.
--Sabrina: Blastoise has the bulk to survive a Psychic or Psybeam and hit hard with a Physical move.
--Blaine: Blastoise can spam Surf to hit his Pokemon for Super Effective Damage.
--Giovanni: Same as Blaine.
--Lorelei: Blastoise is walled here. Not only due most of her Pokemon resist Water and Ice, but they have good defenses to take Physical Attacks, especially Slowbro and Cloyster. However, keep in mind her Dewgong and Slowbro can't do much back to Blastoise, while Jynx doesn't even resist Water.
--Bruno: Surf destroys his entire team due to Onix being 4x weak and the Fighting types having poor Specials.
--Agatha: If you have Earthquake or Dig, you can use that to hit her Physically-frail Pokemon. Ice Beam/Blizzard takes down Golbat.
--Lance: Surf takes down Aerodactyl while Ice Beam/Blizzard takes down the Dragons. However, Blastoise may have trouble with Gyarados as he resists Water and has the bulk to take on Ice moves.
--Gary: Surf takes down Arcanine and Rhydon, while an Ice move hits Pidgeot. Unfortunately, Gary's Alakazam is a lot more threatening than Sabrina's as Gary's knows Psychic. Gyarados once again shows up to bother Blastoise, and Venusaur has the bulk to take an Ice move and hit back with Razor Leaf.
Better? I also edited the Misty and Lorelei battl, as I don't think its as bad as I hyped it out to be in the previous post.
-Availability: Mid-game, as soon as you are through Rock Tunnel and get to Route 7 (east of Celadon City). Depending on your commitments with other Pokemon, Vulpix can acceptably grind up in the Rocket Hideout, Route 8, Lavender Tower and Celadon Gym. It's no Lapras, but it's no Dugtrio either - Vulpix will require planned effort and training for it to become useful. It evolves by Fire Stone purchasable in the Celadon Department Store, but it should not be used until Vulpix has learned Flamethrower at Level 35.
-Stats: Upon evolution, Ninetales has pretty good stats. Base 100 Speed and Special mean that it can dish out the STAB Flamethrowers quickly and for good damage. It has a good critical hit ratio because of that great speed stat, and confuse ray is an immeasurably more useful move if you are faster than the opponent. Grinding with Vulpix feels tough, but that is more to do with having Ember as it's only STAB until level 35. As Vulpix it has the same Special as Charmeleon; but none of it's excellent speed.
-Movepool: Ninetales niche as a fire type is it's early access to Flamethrower. Vulpix learns the move at level 35, and can be evolved immediately at this level. For this reason I think it is the best fire type at being a fire type. The problem is fire isn't very necessary and most players will prefer the wider movepool of Charizard. It gets Fire Spin too, but you should never have to use it in-game. In terms of TMs, it appreciates Fire Blast for some extra PP and power - and realistically there probably isn't much else you want to give it too. Unlike Charizard and Arcanine it doesn't need buffing out with TMs whilst it makes do with Ember. While it would appreciate Body Slam for the neutral coverage, in no way is it worth wasting on Ninetales. Your best bet against something that resists Flamethrower is to Confuse Ray and switch out. Stick to Ninetales strength: fast and powerful STAB fire moves.
My Ninetales moveset Post-E4
Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Confuse Ray/Quick Attack
Flamethrower availability in other Fire types:
Charizard 46
Growlithe 50
Flareon 54
Magmar 55
Unavailable on Ponyta or Moltres
-Power: When you hit level 35, pump your Vulpix full of Fire Stone and start spewing STAB Flamethrowers everywhere Ninetales feels pretty fantastic. It seems a long road to 35, but considering the low-levelled grind fest that is Rocket Hideout and Route 8 it comes pretty quickly. I beat Erika with a Vulpix spamming Ember. Vulpix does OK, when it evolves your hard-work is really paid off. This power never goes away, but as the game goes on it becomes harder to find Pokemon who do not resist Flamethrower and you begin to rue Ninetales lack of coverage.
-Type: Fire types aren't very necessary in RBY, but equally fire type moves are quite rare. Every other fire type is stuck with Ember until they get the unreliable Fire Blast, which they make do with until they get Flamethrower at a level which is beyond what is necessary to beat the Elite 4 if part of a balanced team. So really, Ninetales is a rare commodity in its ability to use a powerful and reliable STAB fire move at a useful level. Post evolution it owns the mid game. Between badge 4-6 is Ninetales' stomping ground really. End game is very tough for fire types, but against neutral targets Ninetales' STAB flamethrower is a potent tool.
-Match-ups:
Erika: It's not pretty, but after a bit of grinding it can solo this gym with some healing items and a few PP replenishing trips back to the Pokemon Center. Her Pokemon have good Special so Ember takes a little while to kill, but beyond status or a critical hit razor leaf there isn't much she can do back.
Koga: Does fine. You should have Ninetales by this point, and it's fast and powerful enough to hurt things in this gym. As with Erika, status is your biggest worry.
Sabrina: Alakazam outdamages you, and you're better off trying to hit it with Physical attacks from a different pokemon if you have them. Ninetales can get by with confuse ray and a bit of luck however. The other 3 shouldn't be a problem, especially the random Venomoth.
Blaine: Ninetales doesn't have the coverage or stats to hurt the fire types in this gym; despite them not really having anything special to do back to her. Their normal type moves will beat Ninetales' and you should use a different Pokemon for this gym.
Giovanni: There are a lot of fighting types amongst the trainers in the gym which don't cause Ninetales any problems. Ninetales can hold its own against the rock types with low special, but watch out for super effective moves. Ninetales can deal with Giovanni's Nidos if she has to as they have no Ground type moves to hurt her with. Giovanni's Dugtrio has Dig which will OHKO. Be wary of super effective moves from the rock types, but Ninetales can do good damage with flamethrower due to their low special.
Lorelei: You own Jynx, but you won't be able to OHKO the Water/Ice types despite Flamethrower doing normal damage and they will OHKO you back. Slowbro walls you.
Bruno: Ninetales can sweep against Bruno as all of his Pokemon have awful special. My Ninetales was level 45 and was having no problems with Machamp, but that's mainly due to the awful AI - watch out for its powerful attacks.
Agatha: Beyond status, she isn't especially threatening. It will take some PP to break through Gengar's Special, but Ninetales has the potential to win this match.
Lance: Everything he uses resists Fire type moves. Ninetales won't win this match.
Rival: Pidgeot and the grass type are defeatable; but you will probably lose to the rest of your Rival's team. Fire types are bad in the end-game :/
Additional comments: Ninetales is the best fire type at being a fire type. Problem is, nobody needs a fire type: they're not very useful in the end-game, and while they have a good period of usability in the mid-game sections there are other more efficient options that cover the same threats. Ninetales is a fast and powerful choice for this part of the game, but it does require some babying to catch up. It is not versatile at all, Flamethrower and Confuse Ray are all it can do - unlike the more varied but TM hungry Charizard and Arcanine. In the end it just lacks the coverage to stay useful right the way through the game, but offers a good deal of power and speed from Erika to Sabrina.
Thunderstone, can I just ask, are you sure the Rock types like Onix wall Ninetails? Onix has a base Special of 30, which is pathetic. To put it into perspective, Venasaur (who is weak to fire) takes almost the same amount of damage from Fire-type attacks as Onix. Rhydon fares a little better, as Base 45 isn't too much worse. Golem's is 55, and the chance of burn means that even with their type immunity, Ninetails isn't outright walled by them, and they can't really do much back.
Re battled Bruno a few times, can confirm that Ninetales can sweep at level 45. I should have more faith in it! Will edit the match up analysis for Giovanni and Bruno accordingly.
Thunderstone, can I just ask, are you sure the Rock types like Onix wall Ninetails? Onix has a base Special of 30, which is pathetic. To put it into perspective, Venasaur (who is weak to fire) takes almost the same amount of damage from Fire-type attacks as Onix. Rhydon fares a little better, as Base 45 isn't too much worse. Golem's is 55, and the chance of burn means that even with their type immunity, Ninetails isn't outright walled by them, and they can't really do much back.
I too have noticed that the Rock/Ground types tend to lose to Flamethrower/Fire Blast as well, its why I don't consider Brock a bad matchup for Charmander, especially seeing as Brock's Pokemon don't even have STAB moves.
So I think I'm gonna do another Yellow playthrough, using these:
Pikachu
Squirtle
Porygon
Seel
2 water types, but that's all I had to pick from the to-do list. I left Staryu and Psyduck for now because 4 water types is overkill. Squirtle can have Ice Beam, Porygon can have Blizzard and Seel/Dewgong gets its own Ice moves. Can't do Koffing in Yellow.
The other team slots are undecided but I may just retest some other pokemon that have entries that I don't like if I can think of any.
Mid sounds like a good spot for vulpix to me. It's on the lower end because it's late, under leveled, bad stab and nothing but stab, but low seems a bit TOO low...
