Holy crap. This is the most popular topic I've made in like, ever.
In the TV show, which I consider a more "realistic" interpretation - next person to mention horns is banned - the Elite 4 are actually depicted as something special, and beating them is no small task that just any old trainer can accomplish - it takes someone of considerable training, or considerable talent, or even both, to defeat even one of them. Consider for a moment that Ash hasn't done it and he's not only a prodigy, but has a fair amount of experience under his belt.
The question of whether this interpretation is correct from the game standpoint is a valid one, and a hard one. The trouble is, I think, levels. It's hard to really gauge time in-game - in theory, my trainer went from beginning to champion in two days, an insane feat by any stretch of the imagination. The leveling system, really, is where I take issue with this. Let's say that the whole journey process, from the standpoint of an NPC, takes about a year, which really is already somewhat improbable. Now consider that someone like Agatha or Bertha has been training for about fifty or more years; shouldn't their Pokemon be level 100? Why are they using L50-60 Pokemon? One explanation is that they hold back in order to not be impossible, but what does that prove? That you beat a watered down version of the "true" E4? And if that's the case, how come you never challenge that "true" E4 (I guess FRLG's second challenge could be considered along those lines, but still)? If this is the case, then perhaps your explanation is worth merit - defeating the "Elite 4 Challenge" does not really imply that you are superior to the Elite 4, but that you have met some standard of skill that demonstrates your "mastery", or something close, and that you are ready for specialized forms of competition.
I actually find the TV show to be extremely unrealistic when compared to the video games. Even though Ash is, in fact, a prodigy, he's an incredibly overpowered character and in my opinion a "Marty Stu," especially when you consider his previous encounters with all the legendary Pokemon and his "saving the world" multiple times on occasion, even though he appears to have little or no grasp on the strengths and weaknesses of individual Pokemon or even the general strengths and weaknesses of types. His Pikachu is strange - it's almost demi-godlike at times and notably weak at others even though Pikachu's defenses aren't extraordinary.
As previously mentioned, I believe that the Gyms and the Elite Four is more or less a tier or a right of passage for a trainer to complete to advance onto real, more extreme forms of battling. Defeating a Gym in my opinion would be similar to graduating a year of school. As you go, the years get harder. However, graduating school does not mean the end of the education of the student, and does not make you remarkably extraordinary. Instead, it serves as a basic education. The real challenge comes when one goes on to a professional battling career, such as the Battle Tower.
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Looking at it from a straight "scientific" (which I use to mean non-literary) perspective, your explanation is completely valid and correct. A simple "literary" explanation that I am more apt to subscribe to, however, is that the elite 4 are still the "elite" -- the Battle Frontier or Fight Areas are just side attractions. The Aces in the Fight Area may have higher leveled pokemon, but this is a necessary part of the game in order to keep you challenged. In any case, you don't see any of them in the Hall of Fame, and you don't challenge any for the championship! This last point, I think, is extremely hard to get around if you think of the E4 as being the first stepping stone.
A problem with your theory is that the Hall of Fame does not include others other than yourself. It does not even include your rival, who presumably conquers the Elite Four. I have really just thought of the "Hall of Fame'' to be like a trophy cabinet. (Similar to ones professional breeders keep of their dogs who won a certain championship - it doesn't mean others have won, it just meant that their dogs won.) Also, particularly in the Jewels generation, you are limited in that you cannot capture Pokemon from outside the Sinnoh region until you receive your National Dex upon "graduating."
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I think it would be cool if they expanded on what they did in FRLG and made a "final challenge" Elite 4 where all their pokemon are level 100 with competitive movesets. To increase difficulty, they could not allow you to use items during battle. It would actually make completely beating the in-game difficult (you can't heal in bewtween the Elite 4 members) and it would solidify the Elite 4 as the "elite" trainers in the game like I think they are supposed to be.
They should have two major areas - the Elite Four // Champion for graduation, and the Legendary Four, a loose band of trainers that are considered to be the best of the best in their field. Sort of like the true "masters" of Pokemon Training, like the professors.
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I prefer this explanation however. The "Elite 4" are a self-selected group, and they hold their own hall of fame for those who win in the elite 4 challenge. Some very rich corporation or group funds the Elite 4, as well as the various gyms throughout the land.
That said, Battle Tower is another group, where all trainers are welcome to participate in a battle. They do not select champions or whatnot, they simply hold regular competitions for battle.
You're brilliant.
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I like the idea of a trainer 'graduating.' That would make something like (in the anime) Indigo Plateau a kind of Olympics of the Pokemon world. You'd spend how ever much time it took to get 8 badges then once or twice a year, all those that qualify, gather for a tournament. Even in-game, imagine facing a elimination tournament with each trainer having 6 EV'd Pokemon with competitive movesets and no items allowed.
Then there's the elite 4. In the same way you can't really teach someone how to play a sport (martial arts?) by beating them down all the time, I think the purpose of the elite 4 is more to advance the world of competitive battling by teaching trainers through battling. I can't really imagine Ash learning how to battle if Bruno was OHKOing all his Pokemon with a level 100 Machamp.
That's exactly what I'm getting at, except the Battle Tower // Indigo Plateau is like the ever-lasting Olympics, kind of like going to a giant hockey game where people pay to watch and there are announcers and the teams are sponsored by McDonalds and Coca-Cola.
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Also they did take something out that I really liked. "Red" at MT. Silver in GSC was like an ultimate trainer who really was a champion of champions. He had lvl 70-80 pokemon and was a pain to get to then you had to face him. I really wanted like a champion of champions in D/P like at some temple or mountains.
also ash's picachu should be lvl 100 by now and he gets owned by random wild pokemon that in game are about lvl 10-20...even when some are water. I really just feel they cant capture how pokemon is portrayed on the show into a video game. You cant really know your pokemon and its impossible to break the water faucets and make onix weak to electric attacks, finally beating brock with a sucky pokemon. I also wish i could just say dodge and the move but pokemon in game just stand there 99% of the time. It is a hard feat but they have done a good job.
I miss Red.
Yeah, dodge option would be awesome and the likelihood of Dodge would depend on a Pokemon's flexibility stat.
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Like most sports and other things you can rather quickly reach a decent level but progress will steadily become slower as your skill improves. When you start out you will see your skill improve from day to day or even hour to hour, but when you reach the top you won't be setting world records very often, if you manage at all. Just like this Pokémon will level up more slowly the stronger they get, and when you finally reach the pro level, lv 100, you're improvements will not be as visual as before but your skills will still constantly be fine tuned by making move sets and such.
I don't think the Battle Tower and similar places should be seen as a challage in the same way as the Elite Four, they are more like a sports match with set rules and automatic levels while the Elite Four is a real battle. You could perhaps compare it to challenging someone in real life with challenging him/her in a computer game. The rules may be similar but the way the matches are played are completely different, as are the skills required to win. In this sense Red from GSC is the strongest trainer so far, not some guy in a Battle Tower.
Exactly what I was getting at. I mean, it's like a sports game where the real trainers go off to compete against each other and one-up each other. There are rules, and Pokemon are slightly limited (similar to featherweight, lightweight, etc. in boxing or wrestling.) I'd say that Red is the strongest so far because he isn't limited by a set of rules like the more professional Battle Tower.
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This is a great topic.
Now if the Elite 4 are seen as "graduating", then I guess the Battle Tower is more akin to something like "college" or the work field. The next level of toughness.
One thing that has always gotten to me though is the issue with the Battle Tower. The Battle Tower is known as a place where only the "best of the best" trainers get to play. The cream of the crop. Yet, what are really the requirements for getting to play in this specialized arena? What truly defines you as "tough enough" to be allowed? Defeating the Elite 4 is definitely the best way, but what about those other trainers that aren't the "Pokemon Champion"? How do they prove their toughness if the Elite 4 is supposed to be the toughest trainers before the Tower, yet they don't challenge the Elite 4?
Exactly! It would be like the work field. And just fighting regular trainers is akin to "streetfighting" with no rules. A.K.A., nobody is going to penalize you if your Pokemon decides to pull a cheap trick or use steroids.
Who said that they didn't defeat the Elite Four?
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I second that. This topic is indeed most interesting. I just wonder if Gamefreak intended it the way we are discussing now. I think it would be cool if in the next generation they make it more obvious as to what stuff like EVs actually are, and to implement it into the game. For example, it would make sense for something/someone in the game to tell you that the more you battle against physically strong pokemon, the more physically strong your pokemon will eventually be. Also, it would be good if certain trainers you meet frequently in the game give subtle hints as to how they prefer to train their pokemon, information that you could then use to exploit their most likely weaknesses. I mean, the introduction of Characteristics this gen is a decent starting point, but I'd really like to see them make an effort to take things a lot further so that there is a more pronounced transition between 'in-game' and 'metagame'.
Yes! That's exactly what I'm talking about! That way it doesn't look like some little kid's game, the game implies that it actually takes skill and smarts to become the real champion.
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The entire idea of "owning" a Pokemon is akin to slavery in so many ways. But then it isn't entirely because Trainers and Pokes are friends, and take care of eachother. When you take a talking dog and have it fight other talking dogs, things get really weird. Not to bash Japan, but jesus.
Didn't you ever hear of the Japanese show about this one bear dog that goes out to fight these bear that's been terrorizing his master's village, finds a pack lead by his father and becomes leader? There were several parts of it and I used to watch it a lot. It was never translated into English except for subtitles. Exactly that happened - there was this one dog that could literally castrate his enemies and there were tons of pack wars. Oh, and ninja dogs!
