In-Game Metagame?

Would saying that there is an "in-game metagame" in Pokemon be an realistic statement? To clarify - the area that is unlocked in both the Jewel and later Advance generations, the "battle island," could be considered the closest thing that the Pokemon "world" has to a metagame?

The idea came to my head as I was writing the first prototype of my current fanfiction Wings of Bone. I was basing the difficulty of defeating the Elite Four upon my own personal game experiences, when assuming that the trainer was aware of inherent values and effort values - explained away appropriately - when training her Pokemon from the beginning of her career as a Pokemon trainer. However, upon later review I was criticized as making the defeat of the Elite Four too easy.

Which got me thinking - is the "Elite" Four really the end-all in Pokemon training, or are they more like Pokemon "school" that prepares trainers for the harsher world of the "metagame," professional battling in areas such as the Battle Tower? Just something I was pondering, what do you guys think?

Personally, I think that collecting all the badges and beating the Elite Four is akin to "graduating," in that it prepares you in some respects to the challenges that lie ahead. I believe that the use of one type per Gym Leader and to some extent the Elite Four assists trainers in becoming familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of certain types and strategies that can be used against them. Defeating the Elite Four does not signal a retirement from battling itself, but a new beginning in the "metagame" of Pokemon battling and breeding. The Battle Tower is akin to the Olympics of Pokemon, where champions come to compete to see who is the real master of Pokemon.
 
This is a decent topic that unfortunately is not getting the notice it deserves, so I'll move it to a Pokemon forum and see what happens.

In the TV show, which I consider a more "realistic" interpretation - next person to mention horns is banned - the Elite 4 are actually depicted as something special, and beating them is no small task that just any old trainer can accomplish - it takes someone of considerable training, or considerable talent, or even both, to defeat even one of them. Consider for a moment that Ash hasn't done it and he's not only a prodigy, but has a fair amount of experience under his belt.

The question of whether this interpretation is correct from the game standpoint is a valid one, and a hard one. The trouble is, I think, levels. It's hard to really gauge time in-game - in theory, my trainer went from beginning to champion in two days, an insane feat by any stretch of the imagination. The leveling system, really, is where I take issue with this. Let's say that the whole journey process, from the standpoint of an NPC, takes about a year, which really is already somewhat improbable. Now consider that someone like Agatha or Bertha has been training for about fifty or more years; shouldn't their Pokemon be level 100? Why are they using L50-60 Pokemon? One explanation is that they hold back in order to not be impossible, but what does that prove? That you beat a watered down version of the "true" E4? And if that's the case, how come you never challenge that "true" E4 (I guess FRLG's second challenge could be considered along those lines, but still)? If this is the case, then perhaps your explanation is worth merit - defeating the "Elite 4 Challenge" does not really imply that you are superior to the Elite 4, but that you have met some standard of skill that demonstrates your "mastery", or something close, and that you are ready for specialized forms of competition.
 
Looking at it from a straight "scientific" (which I use to mean non-literary) perspective, your explanation is completely valid and correct. A simple "literary" explanation that I am more apt to subscribe to, however, is that the elite 4 are still the "elite" -- the Battle Frontier or Fight Areas are just side attractions. The Aces in the Fight Area may have higher leveled pokemon, but this is a necessary part of the game in order to keep you challenged. In any case, you don't see any of them in the Hall of Fame, and you don't challenge any for the championship! This last point, I think, is extremely hard to get around if you think of the E4 as being the first stepping stone.

I really enjoy talking about the ingame pokemon world like this, a shame nobody really brings it up here.
 
I think it would be cool if they expanded on what they did in FRLG and made a "final challenge" Elite 4 where all their pokemon are level 100 with competitive movesets. To increase difficulty, they could not allow you to use items during battle. It would actually make completely beating the in-game difficult (you can't heal in bewtween the Elite 4 members) and it would solidify the Elite 4 as the "elite" trainers in the game like I think they are supposed to be.
 
Hmm... in the "The Electric Tale of Pikachu", which is somewhat decent (I didn't like "Pikachu strikes back", so thats all that I've read)... Only some 20% of trainers become professional, and only 5% of those (1% of the original amount remain active for "more than 6 seasons".

1% seems to be a big enough number to hold a good set of gym leaders and the Elite 4, and it is still "elite" enough to be a considerable challenge to attain. For comparison, the top 1% of IQ scores is an IQ of 135 (well... on a real IQ test anyway). According to a 2004 SAT report, the top 1% of the white males (assuming a standard bell curve) on the Verbal score is a 768+. On the math score, the top 1% of white males is 789+. Again, I must emphasize that I'm assuming a standard bell curve. But it gives a ball-park figure of what the top 1% really is.

Now consider that someone like Agatha or Bertha has been training for about fifty or more years; shouldn't their Pokemon be level 100? Why are they using L50-60 Pokemon?
I've actually got a simpler explanation. They outlive their pokemon. Course, I find it rather difficult to imagine someone outliving a ghost pokemon... but hey, a Haunter died in "The Electric Tale of Pikachu", so thats that :-/ Perhaps they die in freak accidents over the years or something... Lol.

But seriously, I'd go with the "their veteran pokemon die" or that they aren't using their best pokemon argument.

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As for the original poster, it is a great theory and explains a lot, but it seems to be inconsistent with what happened in Gold/Silver. Koga was promoted to Elite 4 status, and Lance was promoted to Pokemon Champion. Furthermore, in the color games, Gary (or Blue, or whatever) becomes the champion after beating the Elite 4.

It appears that you really are the champion after defeating the Elite 4. However, champions may resign or leave... Red is clearly stronger than Lance. And as we've played as Red, we know that Red is the true Pokemon Champion. He probably just resigned. Blue on the other hand is also clearly stronger than Lance, but prefers to hold his own gym than be Champion for one reason or another.

So stronger trainers exist... at least in Gold/Silver.

==========

I prefer this explanation however. The "Elite 4" are a self-selected group, and they hold their own hall of fame for those who win in the elite 4 challenge. Some very rich corporation or group funds the Elite 4, as well as the various gyms throughout the land.

That said, Battle Tower is another group, where all trainers are welcome to participate in a battle. They do not select champions or whatnot, they simply hold regular competitions for battle.
 
I always wished there was a Pokemon game that was like a MMORPG, and it would take like days to grow one level on your pokemon. And would take years to get to lv 100 or something. But that idea is very impratical so I just use my immagination ^^. You would realy grow attached to the few pokemon you chose to train since u would not want to restart training another pokemon. And legendary pokemon would actualy be legendary, in that no one would have them, they would only be able to see them or something.
 
I like the idea of a trainer 'graduating.' That would make something like (in the anime) Indigo Plateau a kind of Olympics of the Pokemon world. You'd spend how ever much time it took to get 8 badges then once or twice a year, all those that qualify, gather for a tournament. Even in-game, imagine facing a elimination tournament with each trainer having 6 EV'd Pokemon with competitive movesets and no items allowed.

Then there's the elite 4. In the same way you can't really teach someone how to play a sport (martial arts?) by beating them down all the time, I think the purpose of the elite 4 is more to advance the world of competitive battling by teaching trainers through battling. I can't really imagine Ash learning how to battle if Bruno was OHKOing all his Pokemon with a level 100 Machamp.
 
The word "elite" means that they are considered the creme of the crop. But that doesn't necessarily that they have the highest leveled pokemon.

I think of the Gyms are "schools", where one gains experience in battling. Trainer schools would be one learns of technical stuff like HMs, EVs and stuff.

The Elite Four would therefore be a challenge to get into competitive battling. They have the skills, and probably a whole bunch of different differently leveled pokemon. I'm thinking one does not have to be Champion, but only to be recognised by the Elite Four to be a so-called "real" trainer.

Of course, Misty has already said this, and came up with some questions, such as why we do not fight the true "Elite Four", but I can't answer that myself.

The Elite Four would then be, a Celebrity-Professional Tester hybrid of sorts. People idolize them and want to win them bladebla.

Being a champion, would be a honorary status conferred to those who have beaten the Elite Four. Therefore, you can choose whether or not to be with the Elite Four once you get this status.

Steven defeated the Elite Four, but chose to instead dig for rocks. Wallace, whom I believe defeated the Elite Four before, but chose to become a Gym Leader because of his teacher or some other reason. So, when Steven stepped down some time before the events of Emerald, Wallace took his spot because he was the next in line/wanted to step up to become the Champion.

This can also explain that how the main character never has to sit in a room all day long and wait for challengers after he/she defeats the Elite Four.
 
The word "elite" means that they are considered the creme of the crop. But that doesn't necessarily that they have the highest leveled pokemon.

I think of the Gyms are "schools", where one gains experience in battling. Trainer schools would be one learns of technical stuff like HMs, EVs and stuff.

The Elite Four would therefore be a challenge to get into competitive battling. They have the skills, and probably a whole bunch of different differently leveled pokemon. I'm thinking one does not have to be Champion, but only to be recognised by the Elite Four to be a so-called "real" trainer.

Of course, Misty has already said this, and came up with some questions, such as why we do not fight the true "Elite Four", but I can't answer that myself.

The Elite Four would then be, a Celebrity-Professional Tester hybrid of sorts. People idolize them and want to win them bladebla.

Being a champion, would be a honorary status conferred to those who have beaten the Elite Four. Therefore, you can choose whether or not to be with the Elite Four once you get this status.

Steven defeated the Elite Four, but chose to instead dig for rocks. Wallace, whom I believe defeated the Elite Four before, but chose to become a Gym Leader because of his teacher or some other reason. So, when Steven stepped down some time before the events of Emerald, Wallace took his spot because he was the next in line/wanted to step up to become the Champion.

This can also explain that how the main character never has to sit in a room all day long and wait for challengers after he/she defeats the Elite Four.

That does explain why you don't wait for challengers, but what explains the amnesia? "I can't remember the last time I've been put in a corner like this!"
 
I really enjoy talking about the ingame pokemon world like this, a shame nobody really brings it up here.
Agreed times four.
I'd go really in-depth on the topic at hand instead of just agreeing with you, but it's 7 AM and I've yet to... Sleep. Hehe. ^^
 
Wallace, whom I believe defeated the Elite Four before, but chose to become a Gym Leader because of his teacher or some other reason.

He 'wanted to be with Winona'. Damn Gracefulshipping ruining my hot canon yaoi.

This can also explain that how the main character never has to sit in a room all day long and wait for challengers after he/she defeats the Elite Four.

I've always wanted to do that. Always.
 
Also they did take something out that I really liked. "Red" at MT. Silver in GSC was like an ultimate trainer who really was a champion of champions. He had lvl 70-80 pokemon and was a pain to get to then you had to face him. I really wanted like a champion of champions in D/P like at some temple or mountains.

also ash's picachu should be lvl 100 by now and he gets owned by random wild pokemon that in game are about lvl 10-20...even when some are water. I really just feel they cant capture how pokemon is portrayed on the show into a video game. You cant really know your pokemon and its impossible to break the water faucets and make onix weak to electric attacks, finally beating brock with a sucky pokemon. I also wish i could just say dodge and the move but pokemon in game just stand there 99% of the time. It is a hard feat but they have done a good job.
 
Very interesting topic.

I think the main reason that the Elite Four don't use Lv 100 Pokémon is that levels don't really exist in the Pokémon world, it's just a way for the game to show the player the relative strength of a Pokémon compared to another. Compare it to saving the game. That's not something the people in the world really do it's just a way to make it a working game. Similarily the people in-game don't really know about levels or stats, they compare their Pokémon with terms like experience or skill.

If you look at Pokémon in the way they do in the anime or manga, the difference in strength between Pokémon are not necessarily huge. The way the trainer handles his or her creature is of far greater importance. A seemingly weak Pokémon can almost always defeat a much stronger opponent through clever use of it's moves and abilities. Only legendary Pokémon has inherent strength far greater than others.

I don't think the levels of the Gymleaders or Elite Four is a static measure of their power but rather how strong they are compare to the player at the very moment of the challenge. If you play the game normally they will usually have Pokémons around the same level as your own. If an opponent of a different strength level challenged them they would seem weaker or stronger. Similarily the Gym Leaders will have stronger monsters as you progress throughout the game, displaying the differences in skill. Roark has lower level Pokémon and weaker moves than his father Byron who's clearly had more time to be training and perfecting his skills. If Roark trains more he will become stronger which would be indicated by a higher level.

So I think the reason that the Elite Four use relatively low level Pokémon is to show that while they're clearly stronger than any trainers you've faced so far, they're not impossible to beat, you just need more strategy or training to beat them. They have a lot of experience but you can also reach that level if you keep on going.

Like most sports and other things you can rather quickly reach a decent level but progress will steadily become slower as your skill improves. When you start out you will see your skill improve from day to day or even hour to hour, but when you reach the top you won't be setting world records very often, if you manage at all. Just like this Pokémon will level up more slowly the stronger they get, and when you finally reach the pro level, lv 100, you're improvements will not be as visual as before but your skills will still constantly be fine tuned by making move sets and such.

I don't think the Battle Tower and similar places should be seen as a challage in the same way as the Elite Four, they are more like a sports match with set rules and automatic levels while the Elite Four is a real battle. You could perhaps compare it to challenging someone in real life with challenging him/her in a computer game. The rules may be similar but the way the matches are played are completely different, as are the skills required to win. In this sense Red from GSC is the strongest trainer so far, not some guy in a Battle Tower.
 
This is a great topic.

Now if the Elite 4 are seen as "graduating", then I guess the Battle Tower is more akin to something like "college" or the work field. The next level of toughness.

One thing that has always gotten to me though is the issue with the Battle Tower. The Battle Tower is known as a place where only the "best of the best" trainers get to play. The cream of the crop. Yet, what are really the requirements for getting to play in this specialized arena? What truly defines you as "tough enough" to be allowed? Defeating the Elite 4 is definitely the best way, but what about those other trainers that aren't the "Pokemon Champion"? How do they prove their toughness if the Elite 4 is supposed to be the toughest trainers before the Tower, yet they don't challenge the Elite 4?
 
I second that. This topic is indeed most interesting. I just wonder if Gamefreak intended it the way we are discussing now. I think it would be cool if in the next generation they make it more obvious as to what stuff like EVs actually are, and to implement it into the game. For example, it would make sense for something/someone in the game to tell you that the more you battle against physically strong pokemon, the more physically strong your pokemon will eventually be. Also, it would be good if certain trainers you meet frequently in the game give subtle hints as to how they prefer to train their pokemon, information that you could then use to exploit their most likely weaknesses. I mean, the introduction of Characteristics this gen is a decent starting point, but I'd really like to see them make an effort to take things a lot further so that there is a more pronounced transition between 'in-game' and 'metagame'.
 
The Pokemon Special manga is, according to satoshi Tajiri (the creator of Pokemon), the most faithful rendition of the world he was trying to create. In it, a few lingering questions raised by the game plots are answered, such as why Blue becomes a gym leader, why Red travels to Mt. Silver, how the Elite Four come to be, etc. IIRC, the Red/Blue?Yellow Elite Four were truly just a band of superior trainers with their own agenda, and not related to the Pokemon League at all, and the point of the Badges was merely to allow fast entry into the Aannual League tournament. The Gold/Silver/Crystal Elite Four were formed from the ruins of the former Four and for the purpose of defending the two regions. The Ruby/Sapphire Elite Four was formed from past tournament winners, as was the champion, so the Hoenn group is the closest portrayal of the whole skill testing purpose. But perhaps facilities such as the Battle Tower and Frontier are really the main focus and the Pokemon League tournaments, gym battles and Elite Four are really just for novice trainers to get the hang of battles. Imagine, if no pro trainers participate in these and only the battle facilities, then it would most likely seem like the trainers you face are all novices. Gym battles, and league tournaments are probably, as everyone has said, just for the purpose of testing you and raising you but the trully skilled trainers won't have anything to do with them anyways.
 
I've only played the Blue version and D/P all the way through, as far as the story goes, but the idea i have from the game vs the tv series/movies are two separate things.

In the TV series, Ash and many other Trainers seem hell bent on "being the best" or getting stronger, but not at the cost of their pokes' well-being. Other characters such as Nurse Joy and a handful of guest characters like the Pokemon Rangers have specific roles to fill, and are happy as can be doing their thing. Also, in a world without real animals (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm having a tough time trying to remember an episode where I saw one) Pokemon are virtual "mirrors" of who you are and what sort of character and morale you're made up of.

This is why Ash is such a great trainer, he's got a big heart and actually cares about his pokes. Also, with Pokemon being able to express emotion and a strange pseudo- free will, it could be assumed that each Pokemon is different in its own regard. (Essentially saying each Pokemon has a "soul", pending on one's beliefs, but this is the easiest way to say it.)

The entire idea of "owning" a Pokemon is akin to slavery in so many ways. But then it isn't entirely because Trainers and Pokes are friends, and take care of eachother. When you take a talking dog and have it fight other talking dogs, things get really weird. Not to bash Japan, but jesus.

Now, in the video game version, Pokemon is more similar to cock-fighting. You may feel attached to your Poke, but it isnt going to do anything you dont tell it to. I remember playing Blue and I had no idea when my Pokemon would evolve. That was pretty exciting cause i was like 12, and it seemed like they evolved when they just "felt like it." Hell, a rooster has a better chance of being unpredictable than a poke does.

In the actual game though, I get a different sense of what part Pokemon play in the "real" world. Obviously, this is a virtual world catered to catching Pokemon and training them. Ok. But this digital universe is a bit different than the TV show. In the TV show everyone is like "WTF POKEMANS!!1!!" In the game its more like, "Oh hey, Pokemon. Look at that." The entire attitude of the regions' inhabitants is different as well. Most people in the game, save a few odd balls, don't really care about "being the best" or kicking all ass. They just do what the do. Some of them want to get better or stronger (usually kids mind you), but they arent going to miss their lunch over it. Let's use an example:

Nurse Joy (TV series): I TOTALLY just healed yer POKEMANZ!!!11! YAAAHOOOooo!! ADVENTURES !!!!

Nurse Joy (Video game): So uh, yeah I healed your pokemon again. Nope, still no virus. *YAWN*

Thing that gets me is she says it with a shit-eating grin EVERY time. At least she could say some different shit, mix it up a little.

So to summarize this TL;DR bored at work post:

-Cock-fighting is bad.
-Borderline slavery, but its not because everyone pretends it isnt
-Video game is weird, but lovable
-TV show is weird, but lovable
-Nurse Joy is a bitch
 
Holy crap. This is the most popular topic I've made in like, ever.

In the TV show, which I consider a more "realistic" interpretation - next person to mention horns is banned - the Elite 4 are actually depicted as something special, and beating them is no small task that just any old trainer can accomplish - it takes someone of considerable training, or considerable talent, or even both, to defeat even one of them. Consider for a moment that Ash hasn't done it and he's not only a prodigy, but has a fair amount of experience under his belt.

The question of whether this interpretation is correct from the game standpoint is a valid one, and a hard one. The trouble is, I think, levels. It's hard to really gauge time in-game - in theory, my trainer went from beginning to champion in two days, an insane feat by any stretch of the imagination. The leveling system, really, is where I take issue with this. Let's say that the whole journey process, from the standpoint of an NPC, takes about a year, which really is already somewhat improbable. Now consider that someone like Agatha or Bertha has been training for about fifty or more years; shouldn't their Pokemon be level 100? Why are they using L50-60 Pokemon? One explanation is that they hold back in order to not be impossible, but what does that prove? That you beat a watered down version of the "true" E4? And if that's the case, how come you never challenge that "true" E4 (I guess FRLG's second challenge could be considered along those lines, but still)? If this is the case, then perhaps your explanation is worth merit - defeating the "Elite 4 Challenge" does not really imply that you are superior to the Elite 4, but that you have met some standard of skill that demonstrates your "mastery", or something close, and that you are ready for specialized forms of competition.

I actually find the TV show to be extremely unrealistic when compared to the video games. Even though Ash is, in fact, a prodigy, he's an incredibly overpowered character and in my opinion a "Marty Stu," especially when you consider his previous encounters with all the legendary Pokemon and his "saving the world" multiple times on occasion, even though he appears to have little or no grasp on the strengths and weaknesses of individual Pokemon or even the general strengths and weaknesses of types. His Pikachu is strange - it's almost demi-godlike at times and notably weak at others even though Pikachu's defenses aren't extraordinary.

As previously mentioned, I believe that the Gyms and the Elite Four is more or less a tier or a right of passage for a trainer to complete to advance onto real, more extreme forms of battling. Defeating a Gym in my opinion would be similar to graduating a year of school. As you go, the years get harder. However, graduating school does not mean the end of the education of the student, and does not make you remarkably extraordinary. Instead, it serves as a basic education. The real challenge comes when one goes on to a professional battling career, such as the Battle Tower.

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Looking at it from a straight "scientific" (which I use to mean non-literary) perspective, your explanation is completely valid and correct. A simple "literary" explanation that I am more apt to subscribe to, however, is that the elite 4 are still the "elite" -- the Battle Frontier or Fight Areas are just side attractions. The Aces in the Fight Area may have higher leveled pokemon, but this is a necessary part of the game in order to keep you challenged. In any case, you don't see any of them in the Hall of Fame, and you don't challenge any for the championship! This last point, I think, is extremely hard to get around if you think of the E4 as being the first stepping stone.

A problem with your theory is that the Hall of Fame does not include others other than yourself. It does not even include your rival, who presumably conquers the Elite Four. I have really just thought of the "Hall of Fame'' to be like a trophy cabinet. (Similar to ones professional breeders keep of their dogs who won a certain championship - it doesn't mean others have won, it just meant that their dogs won.) Also, particularly in the Jewels generation, you are limited in that you cannot capture Pokemon from outside the Sinnoh region until you receive your National Dex upon "graduating."

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I think it would be cool if they expanded on what they did in FRLG and made a "final challenge" Elite 4 where all their pokemon are level 100 with competitive movesets. To increase difficulty, they could not allow you to use items during battle. It would actually make completely beating the in-game difficult (you can't heal in bewtween the Elite 4 members) and it would solidify the Elite 4 as the "elite" trainers in the game like I think they are supposed to be.

They should have two major areas - the Elite Four // Champion for graduation, and the Legendary Four, a loose band of trainers that are considered to be the best of the best in their field. Sort of like the true "masters" of Pokemon Training, like the professors.

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I prefer this explanation however. The "Elite 4" are a self-selected group, and they hold their own hall of fame for those who win in the elite 4 challenge. Some very rich corporation or group funds the Elite 4, as well as the various gyms throughout the land.

That said, Battle Tower is another group, where all trainers are welcome to participate in a battle. They do not select champions or whatnot, they simply hold regular competitions for battle.

You're brilliant.

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I like the idea of a trainer 'graduating.' That would make something like (in the anime) Indigo Plateau a kind of Olympics of the Pokemon world. You'd spend how ever much time it took to get 8 badges then once or twice a year, all those that qualify, gather for a tournament. Even in-game, imagine facing a elimination tournament with each trainer having 6 EV'd Pokemon with competitive movesets and no items allowed.

Then there's the elite 4. In the same way you can't really teach someone how to play a sport (martial arts?) by beating them down all the time, I think the purpose of the elite 4 is more to advance the world of competitive battling by teaching trainers through battling. I can't really imagine Ash learning how to battle if Bruno was OHKOing all his Pokemon with a level 100 Machamp.

That's exactly what I'm getting at, except the Battle Tower // Indigo Plateau is like the ever-lasting Olympics, kind of like going to a giant hockey game where people pay to watch and there are announcers and the teams are sponsored by McDonalds and Coca-Cola.

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Also they did take something out that I really liked. "Red" at MT. Silver in GSC was like an ultimate trainer who really was a champion of champions. He had lvl 70-80 pokemon and was a pain to get to then you had to face him. I really wanted like a champion of champions in D/P like at some temple or mountains.

also ash's picachu should be lvl 100 by now and he gets owned by random wild pokemon that in game are about lvl 10-20...even when some are water. I really just feel they cant capture how pokemon is portrayed on the show into a video game. You cant really know your pokemon and its impossible to break the water faucets and make onix weak to electric attacks, finally beating brock with a sucky pokemon. I also wish i could just say dodge and the move but pokemon in game just stand there 99% of the time. It is a hard feat but they have done a good job.

I miss Red.

Yeah, dodge option would be awesome and the likelihood of Dodge would depend on a Pokemon's flexibility stat.

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Like most sports and other things you can rather quickly reach a decent level but progress will steadily become slower as your skill improves. When you start out you will see your skill improve from day to day or even hour to hour, but when you reach the top you won't be setting world records very often, if you manage at all. Just like this Pokémon will level up more slowly the stronger they get, and when you finally reach the pro level, lv 100, you're improvements will not be as visual as before but your skills will still constantly be fine tuned by making move sets and such.

I don't think the Battle Tower and similar places should be seen as a challage in the same way as the Elite Four, they are more like a sports match with set rules and automatic levels while the Elite Four is a real battle. You could perhaps compare it to challenging someone in real life with challenging him/her in a computer game. The rules may be similar but the way the matches are played are completely different, as are the skills required to win. In this sense Red from GSC is the strongest trainer so far, not some guy in a Battle Tower.

Exactly what I was getting at. I mean, it's like a sports game where the real trainers go off to compete against each other and one-up each other. There are rules, and Pokemon are slightly limited (similar to featherweight, lightweight, etc. in boxing or wrestling.) I'd say that Red is the strongest so far because he isn't limited by a set of rules like the more professional Battle Tower.

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This is a great topic.

Now if the Elite 4 are seen as "graduating", then I guess the Battle Tower is more akin to something like "college" or the work field. The next level of toughness.

One thing that has always gotten to me though is the issue with the Battle Tower. The Battle Tower is known as a place where only the "best of the best" trainers get to play. The cream of the crop. Yet, what are really the requirements for getting to play in this specialized arena? What truly defines you as "tough enough" to be allowed? Defeating the Elite 4 is definitely the best way, but what about those other trainers that aren't the "Pokemon Champion"? How do they prove their toughness if the Elite 4 is supposed to be the toughest trainers before the Tower, yet they don't challenge the Elite 4?

Exactly! It would be like the work field. And just fighting regular trainers is akin to "streetfighting" with no rules. A.K.A., nobody is going to penalize you if your Pokemon decides to pull a cheap trick or use steroids.

Who said that they didn't defeat the Elite Four?

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I second that. This topic is indeed most interesting. I just wonder if Gamefreak intended it the way we are discussing now. I think it would be cool if in the next generation they make it more obvious as to what stuff like EVs actually are, and to implement it into the game. For example, it would make sense for something/someone in the game to tell you that the more you battle against physically strong pokemon, the more physically strong your pokemon will eventually be. Also, it would be good if certain trainers you meet frequently in the game give subtle hints as to how they prefer to train their pokemon, information that you could then use to exploit their most likely weaknesses. I mean, the introduction of Characteristics this gen is a decent starting point, but I'd really like to see them make an effort to take things a lot further so that there is a more pronounced transition between 'in-game' and 'metagame'.

Yes! That's exactly what I'm talking about! That way it doesn't look like some little kid's game, the game implies that it actually takes skill and smarts to become the real champion.

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The entire idea of "owning" a Pokemon is akin to slavery in so many ways. But then it isn't entirely because Trainers and Pokes are friends, and take care of eachother. When you take a talking dog and have it fight other talking dogs, things get really weird. Not to bash Japan, but jesus.

Didn't you ever hear of the Japanese show about this one bear dog that goes out to fight these bear that's been terrorizing his master's village, finds a pack lead by his father and becomes leader? There were several parts of it and I used to watch it a lot. It was never translated into English except for subtitles. Exactly that happened - there was this one dog that could literally castrate his enemies and there were tons of pack wars. Oh, and ninja dogs!
 
I always interpreted the situation as one in which your Pokemon's growth is relative to your abilities as a trainer. For instance, the RBY starters evolve for the first time at level 16, but your rival had a level 17 starter unevolved. Rather than looking at it as a canceled evolution, I see it as a sign that you are a better trainer. For trainers with your types of skills, you can make a Squirtle evolve at level 16. Your rival's skills are different (and ultimately inferior) so he has to wait until level 18. On the extreme, the bug catchers often have to wait until level 30+ to evolve Caterpies and Kakunas because they really suck at Pokemon training (surprise?). Of course, the evil teams are so full of incompetent trainers that they have to rely on stolen Pokemon (they can't train them well themselves) and usually get stuck with unevolved things almost regardless of level.

I would look at level the same way. For your character, who has always been portrayed as a natural born trainer, the limit of your ability to empower a Pokemon is level 100. For the NPCs, the limit is likely lower, and it likely takes them just as much if not more training than it took you to reach your limit. Maybe Agatha's team doesn't pass level 70, but then again, maybe that's just Agatha's limit. She likely did train for her whole life to power her Pokemon up to that. You just happen to be naturally better so your shorter amount of training was able to produce even greater results. Of course, she's been at the top for so long because few can actually reach even her limit. Your character's talents are just obscene; it's little surprise that you are able to win in such conditions.

I know this doesn't explain everything there is to explain, but I think it does a good deal in rationalizing the structure of the Pokemon world.
 
I don't think there are levels in the pokemon world like there are in the video games. I think level just shows the skills and experience your pokemon and you have.(In the anime) So in theory: Pikachu could be level 100 and lose to a level 20 Eevee simply because Pikachu made a mistake like tripping over it's own leg and got beat on lol. Bad example, but I think you get my point. You could compare that to boxing. You could say Holyfield is level 100 in his boxing skill and lose to an amatuer because he made a stupid mistake. That's how Ash's Pikachu loses to Pokemon out in the wild and looks great against Gym Leaders. (or it could of been simply unprepared or outplayed.)

So now apply this to the elite four: (This is just an example since I know my levels are off but who cares.) Lance has a level 70 Dragonite. That means it's very skilled and experienced. Let's say this is in the Anime. Mirza could defeat Lance with his level 50 Infernape for many reasons: Infernape was well rested and Dragonite wasn't, Lance didn't call for the best attacks, Dragonite made a mistake, Dragonite had an injury, luck, the list goes on and on. You can apply this to any sport, and level (IMO) just shows who the underdog is, and who's the favorite in the match up.

The Elite Four are much different in the video games and in the anime. In the video games, they're basically a test to see if you're worthy of a national dex and access to places like the battle tower. But, in the anime, they're the real deal. They seem to be the best in that region, and if you beat the champ, you take his spot and claim the rank as the best battler in that region of the world.

Gamefreak can't make the games and the anime similar because it wouldn't make sense. In the games, losing to a lvl 10 caterpie would be absurd, and your work would be for nothing.

If I could change anything about Pokemon games, it would be difficulty. I don't care about the range, I'd just want a very challenging Pokemon game, and I've yet to see one. High level gym leaders, hard to beat Elite Four, and every once in a while a really badass trainer would be great!

This is a great topic, I wish we had more of these. =D

EDIT: I don't see battling anywhere near slavery like some do. I can compare it to MMA easily. 2 Pokemon fight until one is unable to continute. No killing and Pokemon are millions of times stronger than humans and just as smart as us. If they didn't trust you and didn't actually want to fight, you think you could force them to?
 
One thing that's always made me wonder in the Pokemon Series...what if you're hometown isn't Pallet/Twinleaf/Whatever? Where do you get your first Pokemon? How do you start training? Do you do the gyms in a different order and they adjust their teams/levels for you?



Oh, and the reason all the games are so easy? All the adult gym leaders/elite 4 just go easy on you because you're a 10 year old kid. The real Poke world is way tougher.

I always pictured there being a whole "Battle City" dedicated to competitive battling with the "in-game metagame" IE the Pokemon Battle Revolution "city."
 
Anyone play FFX? The "area" creations, the "creature" creations, and the "original" creations?

Thats just about the difficulty level I'd make the Elite 4 in a "real" pokemon game. So difficult, that you aren't even expected to beat them unless you've maxed out your pokemon, EVs and good IVs.
 
I always interpreted the situation as one in which your Pokemon's growth is relative to your abilities as a trainer. For instance, the RBY starters evolve for the first time at level 16, but your rival had a level 17 starter unevolved. Rather than looking at it as a canceled evolution, I see it as a sign that you are a better trainer. For trainers with your types of skills, you can make a Squirtle evolve at level 16. Your rival's skills are different (and ultimately inferior) so he has to wait until level 18. On the extreme, the bug catchers often have to wait until level 30+ to evolve Caterpies and Kakunas because they really suck at Pokemon training (surprise?). Of course, the evil teams are so full of incompetent trainers that they have to rely on stolen Pokemon (they can't train them well themselves) and usually get stuck with unevolved things almost regardless of level.

I would look at level the same way. For your character, who has always been portrayed as a natural born trainer, the limit of your ability to empower a Pokemon is level 100. For the NPCs, the limit is likely lower, and it likely takes them just as much if not more training than it took you to reach your limit. Maybe Agatha's team doesn't pass level 70, but then again, maybe that's just Agatha's limit. She likely did train for her whole life to power her Pokemon up to that. You just happen to be naturally better so your shorter amount of training was able to produce even greater results. Of course, she's been at the top for so long because few can actually reach even her limit. Your character's talents are just obscene; it's little surprise that you are able to win in such conditions.

I know this doesn't explain everything there is to explain, but I think it does a good deal in rationalizing the structure of the Pokemon world.

That's actually an interesting take and explains a lot. Mind if I use your idea for some of the theories in my fiction?

So, it would be similar to the Happiness rating in that it takes a certain amount of skill for Pokemon to evolve. Level 16 is the lowest possible level for a Charmander to evolve, but with inexperienced trainers it might take even longer for the Charmander to develop because they aren't training it properly, even though it is developing normally physically.

I don't think there are levels in the pokemon world like there are in the video games. I think level just shows the skills and experience your pokemon and you have.(In the anime) So in theory: Pikachu could be level 100 and lose to a level 20 Eevee simply because Pikachu made a mistake like tripping over it's own leg and got beat on lol. Bad example, but I think you get my point. You could compare that to boxing. You could say Holyfield is level 100 in his boxing skill and lose to an amatuer because he made a stupid mistake. That's how Ash's Pikachu loses to Pokemon out in the wild and looks great against Gym Leaders. (or it could of been simply unprepared or outplayed.)

So now apply this to the elite four: (This is just an example since I know my levels are off but who cares.) Lance has a level 70 Dragonite. That means it's very skilled and experienced. Let's say this is in the Anime. Mirza could defeat Lance with his level 50 Infernape for many reasons: Infernape was well rested and Dragonite wasn't, Lance didn't call for the best attacks, Dragonite made a mistake, Dragonite had an injury, luck, the list goes on and on. You can apply this to any sport, and level (IMO) just shows who the underdog is, and who's the favorite in the match up.

The Elite Four are much different in the video games and in the anime. In the video games, they're basically a test to see if you're worthy of a national dex and access to places like the battle tower. But, in the anime, they're the real deal. They seem to be the best in that region, and if you beat the champ, you take his spot and claim the rank as the best battler in that region of the world.

Gamefreak can't make the games and the anime similar because it wouldn't make sense. In the games, losing to a lvl 10 caterpie would be absurd, and your work would be for nothing.

If I could change anything about Pokemon games, it would be difficulty. I don't care about the range, I'd just want a very challenging Pokemon game, and I've yet to see one. High level gym leaders, hard to beat Elite Four, and every once in a while a really badass trainer would be great!

This is a great topic, I wish we had more of these. =D

EDIT: I don't see battling anywhere near slavery like some do. I can compare it to MMA easily. 2 Pokemon fight until one is unable to continute. No killing and Pokemon are millions of times stronger than humans and just as smart as us. If they didn't trust you and didn't actually want to fight, you think you could force them to?

You've got a good point. However, in my opinion levels themselves are a test not of the Pokemon's "strength" but of the overall condition of the Pokemon when compared with others of it's species. For example, an Umbreon at level 100 would be considered the "ideal" Umbreon. Stats would take a deeper importance and would be the equivalent of receiving an IQ score in certain battling fields. Yes, Pokemon with similar scores will have an interesting battle, but those with a deep disadvantage run the risk of being knocked off their feet.

I've never considered Pokemon to be slavery - considering that it would be pretty hard to force a Charizard, Blastoise, Venusaur, or any other Pokemon for that matter to do anything without it killing you. Does anyone remember that old episode of Pokemon where a mutant Tentacruel attacked the city?

One thing that's always made me wonder in the Pokemon Series...what if you're hometown isn't Pallet/Twinleaf/Whatever? Where do you get your first Pokemon? How do you start training? Do you do the gyms in a different order and they adjust their teams/levels for you?

On that note; my trainer - Aderyn Banewood - technically started out in Viridian where she obtained her starter Pokemon from a breeder, although her hometown is Pastoria. She just kind of walked out of the center with Eevee and chased after the nearest Caterpie, although she had previous knowledge gained from her parents whose careers are Pokemon-oriented. I don't think you would do the Gyms in a different order, though, or that they would adjust - they'd be like "Oh, you don't have the previous badge? Sorry." and kick you out.
 
One thing that's always made me wonder in the Pokemon Series...what if you're hometown isn't Pallet/Twinleaf/Whatever? Where do you get your first Pokemon? How do you start training? Do you do the gyms in a different order and they adjust their teams/levels for you?

Oh, and the reason all the games are so easy? All the adult gym leaders/elite 4 just go easy on you because you're a 10 year old kid. The real Poke world is way tougher.

I always pictured there being a whole "Battle City" dedicated to competitive battling with the "in-game metagame" IE the Pokemon Battle Revolution "city."

In the anime you see other Pokemon professors besides the ones seen in the game. They could get their first Pokemon from one of these "other" professors. Looking at it another way, all you really need to catch a Pokemon is a Pokeball. The only rule to being a trainer that I can see is that you have to be of a certain age. But even then that rule gets violated by trainers in the game such as Youngsters. I've always seen Youngsters as younger than my main character. Why else would they be known to me by that term if they were of age or older? You also see the GSC rival stealing a Pokemon. That is a big taboo in the Pokemon world but I'm sure people do it that way too. Befriending Pokemon was also a popular technique in some of the anime episodes and you also have things like the Gamecorner where you exchange your winnings for Pokemon. The list goes on and on..

As for the level thing and the game being easy... at some point you have to realize it's impossible for any video game like this to be 100% realistic as the basic premise is fantasy. You can look at levels in all the ways mentioned and be correct in some degree, but when it comes down to it I think the best explanation is still "it's a game and levels are just a necessary implementation." You're really not supposed to have to explain it because it's just needed to make the game competitive. The anime and the manga that I've read portray everything in a combination of skill on the trainer's part and the skill and natural strength of the Pokemon being used. Mewtwo is still seen as superior to Magikarp based on natural talent and power.

As a side note.. I do disagree with the holding back idea though just because by pure competitive nature people want to win. I don't hold back against someone on Netbattle because they're new or using a UU team; I still want to win.
 
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