BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[chimpact]

I think people should start realizing that scarf genesect is not as good as it popular. Sure it can force a few switches and get you momentum with u-turn, but it can also give your opponent an opportunity to set up if you lock yourself in the wrong move.

E-Belt/Life orb is a great set, because you can always bluff the scarf set and lull them to sleep. when they think they have an opportunity to set up on you thinking you're locked into a move, that's when you take all the momentum. Obviously with Life Orb, they can see the recoil and E-belt damage is going to do slightly more than Scarf. If your opponent pays attention, they can definitely find out if you're Gene is E-Belt before you switch up moves.

And the set Bri posted is another great reason why I think people are wasting Genesect's potential by making it scarfed. A lot of HO teams are 6-0'd by Genesect with Rock Polish + 3 Coverage moves.

 

[PK Gaming]

Genesect is ez really. Get the rocks down, and watch Genesect slowly die. Genesect is also not the best Scarfer, either - slower than +1 Salamence and +1 Volcarona; can't check +2 Stoutland like Terrakion. There are plenty of ways to beat Genesect, I really don't see where all the bitching is coming from, tbh. Sun has Chlorophyll mons & Volcarona, Sand has Stoutland. For any other teams, there are always Tailwind (or Trick Room), RP Landorus-I, RP or SubSalac Terrakion, SubSalac Garchomp, Breloom's Mach Punch, faster Scarf mons like Salamence, Latias, Mienshao, Landorus, Keldeo, Terrakion... etc. Defensive teams should be able to easily wall Genesect that can't raise its offense outside of Download and Charge Beam, and they have no shortage of hazards to punish Genesect for U-turning.

Absolutely nothing in this post is accurate. To say that Genesect isn't the best scarfer because its outsped by +1 base 100s + Terrakion and Stoutland is incredibly shortsighted. You can't dismiss how easy it is to counter by listing a bunch of checks or circumstances that are easily stacked against it Of course its going to lose to +2 Landorus, +1 Salac users, Tailwind or Trick Room users, those aren't ways of "beating" Genesect, they're pokemon that can bypass it under favorable conditions. You could argue that most Ubers aren't broken with the same criteria as well!

On the topic of "easyness", trying to check Genesect is unbelievably hard. Every time it comes in, it forces a 50-50 guess and unless your opponent is bad and spams U-turn 24/7 there's a chance that your switch in might get obliterated by a coverage move (fucking Bug Buzz). There are Pokemon it can't beat like Terrakion or Heatran, but that's where Dugtrio comes in. I think by now we all know how effective GeneTrio is, so I won't go at a lengths to explain how good it is, but it's capable of dismantling like 90% of the teams that exist in the current metagame. Genesect is every bit as powerful, game defining, and annoying as people are making it out to be, and they have every right to bitch about it.

Yes Genesect is an amazing pokemon that has certainly changed the metagame. Far from broken, though, as there are many flexible ways to deal with it, without resorting to specialized counters. Learn to deal with new threats -_-

One of the cruellest realizations i've made is that Genesect is like a cancer that's slowly killing the BW2 OU metagame. I'm not saying it's broken, but the extent of its influence on the metagame is comparable to a tumor that's slowly killing it's patient. I agree with Princess Brii, it's gotten to the point where you have 0 reason to not use Genesect on your team. Whatever happens, i'm going to ride this bug to the stars. <3 Apocalobug

 

[alkinesthetase]

what freaks me out most about genesect is 3 things:

1) almost any team can benefit from carrying it
2) it seems to be outclassed/beaten so easily in theory
and 3) it really doesn't look all that good on paper

yknow when we first heard about genesect's release, i actually made a big post, i think it was in this very thread, about how genesect does not outclass scizor and they're both fine uturners. i think that post remains correct even now, but it really illustrates the attitude i had at the dawn of genesect's appearance - this shit is solidly not OP. it's just a solid uturner, and we've never banned anyone for being a solid uturner.

funny how that theoretical attitude did not pan out in the long run. even now i find it incredibly difficult to describe what exactly it is about genesect that i don't like, what it is that i find unhealthy about it. is it the restrictions on teambuilding that it creates in the metagame? eh well maybe, but couldn't we say that about a lot of other things? is it hard to check? eh well maybe, but really the number of offensive checks to genesect isn't that short in theory, and surely shit like venusaur is harder to check right? has it overcentralized/over influenced the metagame? ehh well maybe, but couldn't we say that about rain, or sun, or deoxys-D? (which have all ALSO been brought up for suspecting. coincidence? keep reading....)

i don't think it's possible to describe what makes genesect such a problem for OU in terms of theory alone. it is absolutely NOT broken in theory. when i read pocket's post i found myself nodding to it, yet my position on genesect didn't change at all in my head. how can it be that a mon with so many answers to it is such a problem? am i just dumb? (MAYBE) the heart of it is its effect on the game is overwhelmingly visible, more so than any other single pokemon (deoxys-D does not even come close, and rain/sun are more about the abilities and the teams than about politoed/ninetales, both of which are shit mons barring rain/sun themselves).

i'm still struggling to describe my issue with it so i'm not sure how much farther i'll take this post, but i think two posts best reflect my position - bubbly's here, and bri's here:

For instance, I've been using Spikes Roserade / Jellicent / Rocky Helmet Heatran on a few different teams and it completely takes Genesect out of the game (and even turns it into a liability in some instances).

If you aren't using a Genesect on a team atm I feel like your team is worse than if you were... :|

when you need to counterteam a single pokemon with a 3-mon core, my eyebrows are going up. i mean of course bubbly's core works well against other major metagame threats as well, but clearly the issue in mind and the impetus of its creation is genesect. and for what it's worth, bubbly also mentioned that the team with that anti-genesect core? IT WAS RUNNING GENESECT. to quote frank's red hot sauce ads, we put that shit on everything.

in summary, this whole metagame is g-weak (props to PK for creating this excellent term), and i don't believe that going to the extent bubbly has (and that other players eventually will) to eliminate that weakness is a good solution to the problem. i'm not sure if it has to go, but i absolutely want to see a metagame without it before we start declaring that it is a healthy and acceptable influence on OU.

 

[Haruno]

The only way gene will be less effective is if we get a fire priority move :X or we get better stall mons.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

You know, I posted in the "questions to smogon council thread" a while back about special cases for bans. I asked that if there was something that was not broken by typical standards, but the entire community just wanted it to go away, then would it be banned? Perhaps this is what's happening now...or perhaps the reverse. I'm sure that we all have some sick, special place within us that longs to use genesect all the time, but we all know that it really centralizes everything too much........we just all love it too much. It is the perfect pokemon.

 

[alkinesthetase]

I'm sure that we all have some sick, special place within us that longs to use genesect all the time, but we all know that it really centralizes everything too much........we just all love it too much. It is the perfect pokemon.

before i die/quit OU ladder, i am going to slap genesect on one of my stall teams (since that actually makes them better >_>) and run it once in my life, to know the sick, perverse joy of using genesect, and then i'm going to take a cold shower and reflect on what it is that's wrong with me

if you can't beat em join em

 

[Shurtugal]

before i die/quit OU ladder, i am going to slap genesect on one of my stall teams (since that actually makes them better >_>) and run it once in my life, to know the sick, perverse joy of using genesect, and then i'm going to take a cold shower and reflect on what it is that's wrong with me

if you can't beat em join em

Agreed

For us players who love Volt-Turn offense, Genesect is the new King we follow!!!!

 

[dice]

Yah, Celebi is one of the best Keldeo counters! A few others you may want to take into consideration are Lati@s, Amoonguss, SpDef Dragonite, and Jellicent while teambuilding!

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Genesect may be not broken (in my opinion it is) but there is a thing that is fact about Genesect; it roughly centralizes the metagame. As said above, even stall benefits from having Genesect on their team; it seems like Genesect is the perfect staple Pokémon. In a little while, not using Genesect may make your team be considered bad. In a little while, Genesect will be for BW2 OU what Mewtwo is for RBY Ubers. I don't know if I'm exaggerating, but for all those that insist in saying that Genesect is not broken; at least consider that Genesect is THE King of OU.

Yah, Celebi is one of the best Keldeo counters! A few others you may want to take into consideration are Lati@s, Amoonguss, SpDef Dragonite, and Jellicent while teambuilding!

But Perish Song Celebi is still the best counter. As all other pokémon that you mentioned may have problems against the SubCM set; if they can't manage to defeat it, your team is doomed. However, Perish Song at least is guaranteed to put a timer on Keldeo sweep.

 

[PttP]

You all are overreacting to genesect. It is not that good that it requires to be on every team, and it definetely is not that good to require 3 counters per team. To say that it is the equivalent of rby ubers mewtwo is quite a silly analogy...you could have at least compared it to DP garchomp, and bw genesect metagame is nothing compared to garchomp in the DP garchomp metagame.

Good, but not that good.

 

[alkinesthetase]

roarcm latias should make a mess of keldeo as long as you're timely and phaze it before it stacks up to a threatening secret sword. psyshock cm latias should also destroy it.

amoong is actually worse off against CM+3 than it is against subcm - you only need 28satk EVs to break a sub when keldeo has TWO calm mind boosts, so you can generally mindgame it - if you land a clear smog while its sub is down keldeo is SO screwed. cm+3 on the other hand threatens an HP ice on amoong which can hurt.

and jelli should hard wall any subcm keldeo =P much like amoong, it's better off against subcm than it is against cm+3, since many cm+3 can carry hp ghost or electric specifically for jelli

 

[Wizarus]

I doubt it's Mewtwo level, but it's definitely the Garchomp of 5th generation. Genesect, Genesect counter, Genesect check, with the option of having a Genesect counter-counter. That's at least half of your team already decided.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

roarcm latias should make a mess of keldeo as long as you're timely and phaze it before it stacks up to a threatening secret sword. psyshock cm latias should also destroy it.

amoong is actually worse off against CM+3 than it is against subcm - you only need 28satk EVs to break a sub when keldeo has TWO calm mind boosts, so you can generally mindgame it - if you land a clear smog while its sub is down keldeo is SO screwed. cm+3 on the other hand threatens an HP ice on amoong which can hurt.

and jelli should hard wall any subcm keldeo =P much like amoong, it's better off against subcm than it is against cm+3, since many cm+3 can carry hp ghost or electric specifically for jelli

Well-remembered, I always forget that Latios has phazing... Remember however that it doesn't work if Keldeo is the last pokémon on the team. Against the other options... This depends of Keldeo's Hidden Power. Also, I was assuming that SubCM Keldeo would fare better against Amoonguss because unless Sleep Clause is activated, without Substitute if you don't have HP Ice or a lot of CM boosts and a rain-boosted Hydro Pump, Ammonguss can threaten to Spore you, or the next switch-in if you think on switching-out. Also, without the protection of Substitute, Amoonguss can Clear Smog or Stun Spore Keldeo.

 

[Gimmick]

Absolutely nothing in this post is accurate. To say that Genesect isn't the best scarfer because its outsped by +1 base 100s + Terrakion and Stoutland is incredibly shortsighted. You can't dismiss how easy it is to counter by listing a bunch of checks or circumstances that are easily stacked against it Of course its going to lose to +2 Landorus, +1 Salac users, Tailwind or Trick Room users, those aren't ways of "beating" Genesect, they're pokemon that can bypass it under favorable conditions. You could argue that most Ubers aren't broken with the same criteria as well!

On the topic of "easyness", trying to check Genesect is unbelievably hard. Every time it comes in, it forces a 50-50 guess and unless your opponent is bad and spams U-turn 24/7 there's a chance that your switch in might get obliterated by a coverage move (fucking Bug Buzz). There are Pokemon it can't beat like Terrakion or Heatran, but that's where Dugtrio comes in. I think by now we all know how effective GeneTrio is, so I won't go at a lengths to explain how good it is, but it's capable of dismantling like 90% of the teams that exist in the current metagame. Genesect is every bit as powerful, game defining, and annoying as people are making it out to be, and they have every right to bitch about it.


One of the cruellest realizations i've made is that Genesect is like a cancer that's slowly killing the BW2 OU metagame. I'm not saying it's broken, but the extent of its influence on the metagame is comparable to a tumor that's slowly killing it's patient. I agree with Princess Brii, it's gotten to the point where you have 0 reason to not use Genesect on your team. Whatever happens, i'm going to ride this bug to the stars. <3 Apocalobug

I have to agree here. I don't really see Genesect as a "Scarfer" as much as a "pseudo-sweeper/revenge killer." Someone isn't going to put it on their team as an answer to revenge kill Volcarona or Salamence. They're going to use it to force switches, threaten just about every single Pokemon in the game with its unpredictability, and revenge kill slower threats. Look at its defenses as well. Not bad at all. With a Steel typing, it doesn't really shrug off an Outrage from a +1 Salamence, but it doesn't die by any means. I'm really just happy that people aren't running Iron Head or more Atk EVs on their (Scarf) Genesects. I personally almost always run Choice Band outside of Hyper Offense (in which I run Expert Belt--it manhandles teams by itself). All Genesect has to do is come in on something that wouldn't like a Flamethrower/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Bug Buzz/Flash Cannon and U-turn out. It's so threatening that it can force things out without even having the said move. I have come in on a Thundurus-T and U-turned out without even having Ice Beam. Basically, I couldn't even scratch it, but I threatened it out. It's impossible to argue that priority or faster Scarfers can take it out because there's something called switching.. Nobody's going to leave their massive threat 60% Genesect in on a Techniloom (unless they have to). Nobody's going to send in a Genesect on a +1 Volcarona or Scarf Salamence locked into Fire Blast. Yes, hazard damage racks up, but nobody's going to let a team other than stall get SR + 3 layers of Spikes up at the beginning of a match. Genesect at +1 SAtk can OHKO Deoxys-D with Bug Buzz. There goes your hazards buddy. Genesect at +1 Atk does 70% to Deo-D and easily just U-turns into something to take it out, meaning they only get Rocks up. That's 13% every time Genesect comes in. 7 switch-ins total. 7 +1 U-turns into appropriate checks to the incoming switch are going to hurt, bad. It doesn't have to U-turn either. It can also predict switches with its phenomenal coverage moves and score some KOs. Genesect is insanely versatile and a pain to deal with, so yeah bitching is justifiable imo.

Not to mention that since it's so good, it's fun to use lol :x

 

[doughboy]

after a conversation with DTC and callforjudgment on #pokemon yesterday (a very good conversation, got me thinking about a lot of things) i find myself nodding my head to this statement. even STALL, yes STALL, could benefit from having a genesect on it. we were talking about how six-defensive-mon stall in the traditional sense is outdated, and running a single offensive "panic-button" check could solve a lot of problems. i adamantly disagreed because i didn't really feel that was stall anymore and because you lose out on a crucial slot for countering stuff... but really, genesect could potentially check enough things to justify the things you give up on countering by running it. thinking about it, five defensive mons + genesect is really not a bad team, if you can choose the right defensive mons. six defensive mons on the other hand is basically impossible right now.

scary how EVERYTHING benefits from having a genesect on it

I would argue that Scarf ditto is a much more potent than Genesect in that regard. You can't utilize Genesect's U-turn to gain momentum effectively with defensive pokes that have little ability to cause massive damage to an opponent's team. You can use Bug Buzz, but then you would lose Genesect's only niche above Scarf Ditto as a revenger.

What makes Scarf ditto so damn special? Well, it can check Pokemon regardless of speed tiers, which Genesect fails to do. On that defensive team with Genesect on it, you will still struggle with DDmence and SD/RP Terrakion. More importantly, Ditto can threaten a countersweep! Sort of like Magic Bounce and hazards, the mere presence of Ditto makes sure the opposing team will be very timid towards boosting, which really limits the opponent's offenses. Your opponent would be put in the frustrating position of A) opening up your defensive core or B) face a potential sweep from your own Poke.

Ditto has some other interesting utility on stall too. First, it makes a great scout if you can get in safely. Even if you can't damage the opponent immediately, right off the bat you will have a general idea of how the opponent will play. A good example would be facing lead Rotom-W, who could be the bulky variant or far more dangerous TrickScarfer (in context of a defensive team). Second ditto can be a semi-reliable way to stop Deoxys-D leads by providing a faster Taunt through Choice Scarf, something that stall can not do unless it uses Sableye, Xatu, Cobalion, or defensive Tornadus-T (yes I experimented with it).

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Another interesting perk about ditto that I just was informed of by the smogon youtube discussion is that ditto can effectively counter baton pass teams, stealing their boosts and then baton passing them to tier own pokemon. If a stall team has anything mildly offensive it can take advantage of that, or just go into their espeon and attack away.

 

[alkinesthetase]

meh on ditto vs BP, you can't imposter a mon behind a sub so you have to position yourself very careful if you want to get ditto in. full BP at least should not be ditto-weak at all, although quick pass teams are fairly vulnerable.

it is indeed good on stall though, i saw someone in dark horse using it. perfect counter to most setup sweepers, which usually gives stall trouble if you don't phaze in a timely fashion

 

[Afti]

I'm not sure I'd call Genesect broken, but realistically it is the biggest suspect in the metagame right now, and I'd be just fine seeing a test. It's the best Pokémon in OU, hands down; how well you use your Genesect can make or break a team.

I think the biggest issue a lot of people have with it is that, while Genesect can be checked - its checks are overwhelmingly offensive in nature. It makes the whole metagame more offensive by its presence. I play a very fast, offensive game, so I'm fine with it - Genesect fits my playstyle like a glove. But traditional stall gets to enjoy a metagame which is uniquely inhospitable to it. Genesect is a sizable threat, but can be managed, even if it's difficult - but the other players responding to Genesect are playing a much faster, harder-hitting offensive game to deal with it before it can do too much damage; as such, they're also going to hit defensive Pokémon harder. With the power level attainable in BW, that's bad news for stall teams and their players.

Realistically, I think that (if it doesn't get banned outright - personally, I'm hoping it doesn't, because it's a gift to the kinds of teams I play, but I can understand if it is) people will eventually adapt just fine to stall teams that include Genesect or a similar Pokémon in order to put offensive pressure on an opponent. Stall adapts to the metagame; remember, Regice was a viable defensive Pokémon when it was introduced. Stall is a playstyle which wins by gradually breaking down the opponent's team, at the most basic level - a death by a thousand cuts; everything else - entry hazards, status, everything - is a means of bringing that about. Carrying something more direct to quickly remove particular offensive threats in order to allow for the successful execution of your strategy is not a course of action inherently incompatible with stall - it's just not been necessary in the past.

 

[chimpact]

Ditto does beat BP, but it depends on the state of the match and how your team would use the boosts. If your only special attacker is a scarf/specs user, it's not going to be that effective against BP chain. If you can't break past the substitutes then ditto isn't going to do be doing anything at all. Stored Power is still deadly, but for the most part Espeon's don't run speed EVs on that team and you can always 2hko it if you can't outright OHKO it. (You hit it once after they BP into it while you BP with ditto into another pokemon and then take it out with Ditto's stored power.)

 

[thebrownie]

I'm not sure I'd call Genesect broken, but realistically it is the biggest suspect in the metagame right now, and I'd be just fine seeing a test. It's the best Pokémon in OU, hands down; how well you use your Genesect can make or break a team.

I think the biggest issue a lot of people have with it is that, while Genesect can be checked - its checks are overwhelmingly offensive in nature. It makes the whole metagame more offensive by its presence. I play a very fast, offensive game, so I'm fine with it - Genesect fits my playstyle like a glove. But traditional stall gets to enjoy a metagame which is uniquely inhospitable to it. Genesect is a sizable threat, but can be managed, even if it's difficult - but the other players responding to Genesect are playing a much faster, harder-hitting offensive game to deal with it before it can do too much damage; as such, they're also going to hit defensive Pokémon harder. With the power level attainable in BW, that's bad news for stall teams and their players.

Realistically, I think that (if it doesn't get banned outright - personally, I'm hoping it doesn't, because it's a gift to the kinds of teams I play, but I can understand if it is) people will eventually adapt just fine to stall teams that include Genesect or a similar Pokémon in order to put offensive pressure on an opponent. Stall adapts to the metagame; remember, Regice was a viable defensive Pokémon when it was introduced. Stall is a playstyle which wins by gradually breaking down the opponent's team, at the most basic level - a death by a thousand cuts; everything else - entry hazards, status, everything - is a means of bringing that about. Carrying something more direct to quickly remove particular offensive threats in order to allow for the successful execution of your strategy is not a course of action inherently incompatible with stall - it's just not been necessary in the past.

I have the funniest counter to genesect with a bulky breloom (240hp/240Spd) where when I see a genesect on opposing team, I lead with breloom and spore. Icebeam does like 75ish. Leech seed and protect if they switch or if they stay in, I switch to something that can 1-2kho from that range or resist the Icebeam so if he doesn't wake up he is forced to switch and reset his counter or lose is genesect.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Impostor fails if the opponent is behind a substitute. Therefore, ditto does not beat stall. They will ALWAYS be behind the subs...

EDIT: BATON PASS. WHAT AM I EVEN THINKING. DITTO DOES NOT BEAT BATON PASS

 

[Lady Alex]

What? Stall rarely has any pokemon that carry sub. One, at most.

 

[alkinesthetase]

well granted, not all BP teams are full BP of six passers. those ones will almost always have a substituter, and espeon and mr mime are basically also a requirement (smeargle is extremely common for the ingrain+spore lead as well). ditto will accomplish little against such teams. but some teams are less intensely focused around BP and just carry a few things that can BP around some useful stuff - teams featuring a one-off baton passer like gorebyss or venomoth are often like this - and ditto will probably fare nicely against them.

 

[Pocket]

Absolutely nothing in this post is accurate. To say that Genesect isn't the best scarfer because its outsped by +1 base 100s + Terrakion and Stoutland is incredibly shortsighted.

PK Gaming, I respect you as a player, but really chill out and cut down on the major hyperbole, please. Discounting my experience as absolutely false is offensive, and you are behaving like a jerk doing so - grow up. Don't dismiss the facts by saying that they are 100% false - that's just immature and dishonest.

Yes, Genesect is not the best scarfer if it can't even check major threats like +1 Salamence and Volcarona. The latter especially cannot be taken out by priority. Having Genesect as a Scarfer can often compel people to add a SECOND scarfer - Genesect is simply put, not sufficient in the revenge-killing role - (granted, it's a major improvement from Scarf Rotom-W, but that's not saying much).

Hazards limits Genesect - that's a fact. Its particularly vulnerable, because it's grounded, neutral to rocks, and is forced out rather easily if it doesn't U-turn. Leads like Tanga Berry Deoxys-D with higher SpD than Def can easily lay down hazards on Genesect leads.

One of the cruellest realizations i've made is that Genesect is like a cancer that's slowly killing the BW2 OU metagame. I'm not saying it's broken, but the extent of its influence on the metagame is comparable to a tumor that's slowly killing it's patient.

I disagree here - yes Genesect shook up the meta substantially, but it has several exploitable flaws that are readily accessible in our current metagame. It should not take major over-preparation to deal with Genesect (at least I didn't).

Also only 1 of my teams utilize Scarf Genesect, and I can absolutely say that all my other teams function better without it -_-

 

[bubbly]

I would say that it is the best Scarfer, by a fair margin, but of course all the reasons you listed which make it less effective are perfectly valid. However, every other good Scarfer in the metagame has similar and more numerous problems. Salamence? Easily walled by Steel types early game, vulnerable to Ice Shard, SR weak. Scarf Terrakion's attacks are easy to sponge for any vaguely bulky team and it's similarly vulnerable to priority. Scarf Keldeo in Rain is more realistic competition for Gene, since it can break frail teams and sweep easily as compensation for lacking U-turn and coverage; but that said, its still completely reliant on Rain being up to be effective.

ScarfRachi is actually pretty cool in this metagame, so I'll give you that. Can lure Genesect reliably so long as you don't be an idiot and send it out first turn, and Iron Head sweeps are pretty realistic with the metagame this offensive. Oh yeah and it laughs at GeneTornaTrio which is pretty nice.

Last thing, people need to try Genesect + Zoroark + Fighters. Zoro works absolutely perfectly in this metagame, especially since thanks to the BW2 tutors it can use Specs with Trick. Nice partner for CB Stoutland as well if you can find a decent Illusion partner for it in the sand.