But Dugtrio has Arena Trap, not Shadow Tag. But I think the rule still applies.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]
- Thread starter ganj4lF
- Start date
I think Shadow Tag does not interact with Arena Trap and Magnet Pull due to AT and MP being situational abilities
I could be wrong, but the smogon page for Shadow Tag says that two Shadow Tag pokémon can't trap one another, no mention of pull or trap
I could be wrong, but the smogon page for Shadow Tag says that two Shadow Tag pokémon can't trap one another, no mention of pull or trap
Shadow Tag mons used to trap other Shadow Tag mons back in GSC. However since back then the only Shadow Tag mon was Wobbufett, it was extremely annoying whenever they happened to trap each other as they were forced into a PP stall war. Fortunately, Game Freak corrected this problem in RSE and it has been that way ever since. (even today a Wobb vs Wobb fight would be annoying)
Yeah, I had thought of Heatran fishing for misses and was almost going to add Tbolt or run a faster spread but then I realized that it is pointless for Heatran to try such a thing. Heatran can't do anything to really hurt Rotom-W so having an extra turn from a Hydro Pump miss isn't doing anything for it. Sub spamming is just going to eat away its own HP (in the mean time Leftovers is going to heal Rotom's) just to be a PP stall troll. The speed investement isn't anything special, it's just to outrun Adament Scizor. Breloom already counters Rotom (well Poison Heal does, Techniloom still takes about 48% min from Hydro Pump) and T-Wave is going to solve any lolsy speed creeping. The Dnite example is a bit unreasonable, in any case Lum Berry is a one time use item and Volt Switch hits neutrally so it's not a very good check.
Why pick a defensive mon when we can pick an offensive pokemon that counters team 2's choices and then pick another to put double pressure on the their next picks? :p In all seriousness though, defensive pokemon that lack any offensive punch is something to be avoided in this project. As much as I love Stall, a passive pick like Jellicent is easy to counter (I'm thinking something like Hydreigon/ Lati@s that don't really care about burn nor Night Shade) and isn't going to do much to the opposing team in general outside of countering Heatran and Keldeo. Yes, that is the first point of a pick, to counter the other team, but we also have to think ahead and try to make it as hard as possible for the other team to counter back. Otherwise the end result will be one team having to react to the other while the other controls the flow of the game. Granted, Jellicent does provide valuable utility as a spin blocker but, as others have already pointed out, Team 2 hasn't picked a spinner yet. If we choose our Ghost type before they choose their Rapid Spin user, odds are they won't be dumb enough to let it be beat by the spin blocker.
As far as any concerns about the 55% of Keldeo beating Rotom-W with Secret Sword after SR. Keep in mind that the rest of team 1 will undoubtedly not make the mistake of being almost completely Secret Sword weak. Which is pretty situational considering we are talking about a weak Choice locked Keldeo. It's a great revenge killer but revenge killers are easily checked anyways.
Imo team 1 should try and force team 2 into using a poke that Kyurem can set up a sub on. Physically defensive jelliscent is one that can temp team 2 into using a poke that Kyurem can get a sub up on and if we can get hazards up; team 1 does have the last pick we can easily whittle down heatran and keldeo as they are both grounded. If we do choose jelliscent then that means we also get a spin blocker which will be nice and another poke with recovery. Starmie does the same job but is more pursuit bait and they can then adjust their hazarded to counter starmie if we choose it at this point in time. Imo jelliscent is the best counter which shows by the slowness of the rest of the replys once jelliscent got suggested and that it is a great counter to both pokes while gaining good type resistances with kyurem. We also don't want another hazard weak poke as then we are forced to run a spinner which they can use to setup on/trap kill.
I'd propose this pokèmon:
Amoonguss (M) @ Black Sludge
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 244 HP / 28 SAtk / 236 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Spore
- Stun Spore
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Okay, as everybody knows, Spore sleeps a pokèmon and that is always good. Stun Spore, in combination with Spore is a interesting move and allows to create two status in two turns (and this is quite annoying for the opponents). Giga Drain is a generic STAB and I prefer the Hidden Power Ice in place of another types of Hidden Power to hit the dragon types and Landorus.
Amoonguss (M) @ Black Sludge
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 244 HP / 28 SAtk / 236 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Spore
- Stun Spore
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Okay, as everybody knows, Spore sleeps a pokèmon and that is always good. Stun Spore, in combination with Spore is a interesting move and allows to create two status in two turns (and this is quite annoying for the opponents). Giga Drain is a generic STAB and I prefer the Hidden Power Ice in place of another types of Hidden Power to hit the dragon types and Landorus.
First this keldeo is scarfed so it won't get any boosts and second heatran can easily counter it not to mention the bad type synergy and this is a defensive poke that can't lay hazards spin or spinblock and has no reliable recovery bar switching.
I edited the part about Calm Mind Keldeo, thanks. However, I disagree with you, Amoonguss has a good synergy with Heatran and Keldeo (famous FGW core) and Regenerator gives it a decent recovery (switching isn't a problem, in my opinion). And please, look the other pokèmons put here, nobody posted a Keldeo and Heatran's counter.
I'd like to nominate
Latias (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 156 HP / 88 SAtk / 16 SDef / 248 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Psyshock
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Recover
This mon checks Scarf Keldeo with ease and can use recover to get back at full life, more, it can OHKO Keldeo back with Psyshock which is a really strong STAB. This pokemon imposes offensive pression on the opponent and also helps Kyurem-B to remove his counters or at least dammage them. Double dragon is a good strategy while people today usually runs only one check to dragons attacks.
Latias (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 156 HP / 88 SAtk / 16 SDef / 248 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Psyshock
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Recover
This mon checks Scarf Keldeo with ease and can use recover to get back at full life, more, it can OHKO Keldeo back with Psyshock which is a really strong STAB. This pokemon imposes offensive pression on the opponent and also helps Kyurem-B to remove his counters or at least dammage them. Double dragon is a good strategy while people today usually runs only one check to dragons attacks.
o.k now im confused. Amoonguss might have good synergy with Tran / Keldeo, but we are picking for Team #1 which only has Kyurem-B atm. Secondly, I am pretty sure the Jellicent nomination beats with Heatran and Keldeo... (also Slowbro should beat both as well). Can you be a little more clear as to what you mean?
Breloom @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 136 HP / 120 Specdef
Brave Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Spore
- Swords Dance
Since Loom won't be outrunning anything, why not bulky? This can really endanger both of team 2's pokemon, and gets some easy switches.
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 136 HP / 120 Specdef
Brave Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Spore
- Swords Dance
Since Loom won't be outrunning anything, why not bulky? This can really endanger both of team 2's pokemon, and gets some easy switches.
Well, Team 2 could pick something like Latios and screw your Breloom over with Psyshock, and I don't think Kyurem-B will appreciate a Latios on the loose
@JacobNinja: Don't I remember you submitting a Staraptor set?
@JacobNinja: Don't I remember you submitting a Staraptor set?
The thing I don't particularly like about Slowbro is that it drags the team behind, and quite literally forceus us to run a bulkier team to compensate for lost momentum. With Slowbro here, it's goin to kick us into a 'select a wall for that pokemon' mode, since any thoughts of having an offensive inclined team go down the drain. I am in no way saying that Slowbro is purely defensive and should only be used on defensive teams, but since we already have a more tankish-defensive oriented pokemon in Kyurem-B, adding another will just slow us down. Of course, if that's what you want to aim for, then Slowbro is your man.
However, if you want this to be interesting, I'd suggest a pokemon that's less geared towards just sitting and taking hits- instead, I'd choose a pokemon with more support capabilites such as Jellicent, or one that can check and smack back with some fiesty coverage moves like Starmie. Jellicent at least spin blocks, which will definitely be useful at some point (though with it, we must be extremely careful in the next pick, as we immediately become extremely weak to SubDisable Gengar and Pursuit trappers.) Starmie is cool too because it spins and can revenge as well as hit hard.
As for Slowbro being able to wall Gothitelle, I'm sure a simple Trick + Calm Mind will definitely allow it to set up and sweep our whole entire team. Doesn't sound like fun at all.
However, if you want this to be interesting, I'd suggest a pokemon that's less geared towards just sitting and taking hits- instead, I'd choose a pokemon with more support capabilites such as Jellicent, or one that can check and smack back with some fiesty coverage moves like Starmie. Jellicent at least spin blocks, which will definitely be useful at some point (though with it, we must be extremely careful in the next pick, as we immediately become extremely weak to SubDisable Gengar and Pursuit trappers.) Starmie is cool too because it spins and can revenge as well as hit hard.
As for Slowbro being able to wall Gothitelle, I'm sure a simple Trick + Calm Mind will definitely allow it to set up and sweep our whole entire team. Doesn't sound like fun at all.
this one, starmie isn't a pussy like jellicent so they can't set up as easily. i am inclined to use life orb + surf, though, to give an extra punch to psyshock and keep the reliability.
seriously, starmie gives you needed speed to revenge whatever sweepers they throw at you (salamence, thundurus, terrakion whatever) and it currently walls 1/3 of their team
yes, but I think a breloom would be better. should I delete my first one?
So, submissions were opened for three days and more, forums went down, things happened, and now it's time to vote! We're going to pick the second pokemon of Team 1.
This is a single bold voting; you can vote for only one entry, picked from the following list:
** I don't even know why I'm listing this. DON'T POST MORE THAN ONE SET, next time I won't slate either. And see above on sprites.
When voting, you should post only the name of the user that proposed your favourite set, bolded (you can add whatever commentary you like, not bolded, under your vote). A properly formatted vote looks like this:
This is a single bold voting; you can vote for only one entry, picked from the following list:
- DarkBlazeR's Jellicent
- ClubbingSealCub's Jellicent
- Melee Mewtwo's Rotom-W
- Phazon00's LO Starmie
- Electrolyte's Bulky Starmie*
- JacobNinja's Breloom**
- Sewa's Navi Celebi
- lokt's Specially Defensive Celebi
- Crackstar's Toxicroak
- ThePillsburyDoughBoy's SubPass Celebi*
- Remedy's Slowbro
- Arcticblast's Azelf
- ChrisTehAwesome's Breloom
- Alexander's Amoonguss
- H-C's Latias*
** I don't even know why I'm listing this. DON'T POST MORE THAN ONE SET, next time I won't slate either. And see above on sprites.
When voting, you should post only the name of the user that proposed your favourite set, bolded (you can add whatever commentary you like, not bolded, under your vote). A properly formatted vote looks like this:
Self voting is allowed. You have about 24 hours to vote. Go!
I changed the Rotom EV spread to 248 HP / 112 Def / 148 SAtk Modest Nature. This spread gives up outrunning max speed Adament Scizor and some useless SpDef bulk for the irrelevant Tornadus-T in exchange for enough physical bulk to always survive two Secret Swords from Scarf Keldeo even after SR damage and some extra power. This should take care of any concerns about Rotom's capabilities to counter both of team 2's threats.
Edit: Sorry Shurtugal, we can't slash in this project.
Edit: Sorry Shurtugal, we can't slash in this project.
Voting for Melee Mewtwo's Rotom-W.
Thunder Wave support is invaluable as well as being an amazing teammate against both Heatran and Keldeo atm.
We'll need something to sponge fighting attacks later, with something to get rocks up, provided with either a lead that discourages SR set up or a spinner. That's granted, but as for the second member, Rotom-W is perfect for TWaving Lati@s threats as well as knocking their team. Tornadus-T is also checked / countered by Rotom-W, which is invaluable because its such a big threat universally. If we didn't add Rotom-W now, we probably will later (or some shitty Zong, or a decent Jirachi) since Torn-T weak = Rain weak imo.
Also, slash Rest and Chesto Berry since they should equally work as well and are invaluable vs. rain teams (since their best bet is to wear down Rotom-W into Hurricane KO range).
tl;tr: Rotom-W is best because it punishes the opponents team, but it also provides TWave support and the invaluable insurance against Tornadus-T.
Thunder Wave support is invaluable as well as being an amazing teammate against both Heatran and Keldeo atm.
We'll need something to sponge fighting attacks later, with something to get rocks up, provided with either a lead that discourages SR set up or a spinner. That's granted, but as for the second member, Rotom-W is perfect for TWaving Lati@s threats as well as knocking their team. Tornadus-T is also checked / countered by Rotom-W, which is invaluable because its such a big threat universally. If we didn't add Rotom-W now, we probably will later (or some shitty Zong, or a decent Jirachi) since Torn-T weak = Rain weak imo.
Also, slash Rest and Chesto Berry since they should equally work as well and are invaluable vs. rain teams (since their best bet is to wear down Rotom-W into Hurricane KO range).
tl;tr: Rotom-W is best because it punishes the opponents team, but it also provides TWave support and the invaluable insurance against Tornadus-T.
Voting for my own Jellicent
I'd also like to add that in a team building challenge such as this, countering "weather" is not a as important as countering prominent threats
Team 1 has the last pick, so if Team 2 goes for rain GG Specs Kingdra Hpump/Dmeteor spamfucks team 2.
I'd also like to add that in a team building challenge such as this, countering "weather" is not a as important as countering prominent threats
Team 1 has the last pick, so if Team 2 goes for rain GG Specs Kingdra Hpump/Dmeteor spamfucks team 2.
Melee Mewtwo
Just a mistake, I didn't remember that we are picking for Team 1. I guess that Amoonguss can work however.
DarkBlazeR
My only change to the set would to put Scald over Surf, but otherwise Kyurem B would like a spinblocker and Fire/Fighting/Steel resists.
My only change to the set would to put Scald over Surf, but otherwise Kyurem B would like a spinblocker and Fire/Fighting/Steel resists.
DarkBlazeR
I also wish it had scald, but nonetheless it completely shuts down heatran and keldeo while spinbocking and having fighting/steel resistances.
I also wish it had scald, but nonetheless it completely shuts down heatran and keldeo while spinbocking and having fighting/steel resistances.
Smogon was down for me, I had a message to do but sadly ... :(
So
Can you explain why, I'm really interested.. I find it a little unfair to claim that
"it's goin to kick us into a 'select a wall for that pokemon' mode"
" I'd choose a pokemon with more support capabilites such as Jellicent"
without any form of explanation.
About the Wall etc stuff. Correct me if I'm calculating wrong. But if I can wall two pokemons with a single one, in the end I will have an unbreakable defensive core of 3 pokemons (2*3=6 I believe), which leaves me 3 pokemons to build an offensive core (6-3=3). So saying that we should not be picking defensive pokemons when they can wall a large part of the opposite team and spread status is not something I understand (moreover Slowbro is likely to wall the incoming Physical sweepers from team 2).
From my point of view, Jellicent can burn when Slowbro can ThunderWave. At the moment Twave is what we almost NEED. Whereas WoW is not far from being useless against the already picked pokemons.
So Slowbro brings more support.
Moreover it can burn aswell with Scald, and Jellicent got one single attacking move.. Surf
Taunt? we all see the speed invested, and Jellicent is not something hard to outspeed. The Taunt is likely to be a totally loss slot. Taunt Heatran is useless because he won't stay in on Jellicent and you better try to deal damage.
So yes, I'm really looking for your explanation on what a slow Taunter, with one single attacking move can bring, with one single low accuracy Status move, especially when he's crippled is annoyed by hazards, thus by switching in and out.
If it's about the spin block, you criticized me for chosing a Spinner before hazards, and now you seem willing to chose a Spin Blocker before a Spinner. I don't think you were fair here too.
On the other hand Slowbro can hit on two sides, get a Burn or a Paralysis, and won't get killed anytime soon with Regenerator. That's some other support skills.
I don't see how you lose momentum by the way, you seem to underestimate a little what can do a Paralysis on most of the pokemons of this Metagame.
I thought that I cleared any doubt on Slowbro's ability to not slow down that much the team. It is not only a wall for all the reasons I said, he can 2HKO both of the picks at the moment and "kill" them with Paralysis, I don't see Jellicent doing the same at all. So in terms of slowing the team, there is no comparison possible.
And I just realised that you did the cleaver post about not chosing a spinner, so I'll use it to criticise Starmie :
"I'm also not a big fan of Starmie either, albeit the idea is correct in my opinion. It is obvious that team 2 is going to eventually use hazards, so saving a spot for a spinner eventually is a good idea- however, I do not think it is so right now. Spinning is a very subjective strategy, as the effectiveness depends on the spinner and the team it faces. Choosing a spinner before the opponent even shows hazards is a bad idea, since there are so many more ways to set hazards then there are to spin them. If we restrict ourselves to Starmie now, this can easily be exploited by team 2, and they could choose a pokemon that is able to set hazards past Starmie (Ferrothorn, for example) That would leave us in a sticky situation. "
I bolded what I did change (it was just Starmie over Claydol and 1 for 2). And I increased the size of the most important part. I totally agree with you by the way, you really did open my eyes on this point, we should not rush for a spinner at all, and we should not rush for a spin blocker aswell isn't it?
For the Gothitelle part, our whole team for now is composed of 2 pokemons. So yes, probably she can, but a simple U-Turn kills her. Moreover Gothitelle comes on Jellicent as easily.
Jellicent can burn?
Well Slowbro can TWave with better accuracy, so we can run anything like Ttar or Scizor able to 0HKO the Gothitelle for sure after.
So yes, this argument about Gothitelle is a little annoying and unfair, because as I said, we can play around it pretty easily depending on Gothitelle set, and Slowbro is not the worst thing we could get trapped giving what he can do.
So submit this Gothitelle set for the next steps if you want, but I'm pretty sure you won't because there will be an easy want to abuse the weaknesses of the set you'll submit.
At least if you were defending the Latias submission, I could understand, but defending Jellicent with your line of logic is not really plausible and fair I believe.
H-C's Latias.
So
I don't understand what you got against Slowbro. I mean, I do a little, but I seriously don't understand when you say that Jellicent offers more support ?
Can you explain why, I'm really interested.. I find it a little unfair to claim that
"it's goin to kick us into a 'select a wall for that pokemon' mode"
" I'd choose a pokemon with more support capabilites such as Jellicent"
without any form of explanation.
About the Wall etc stuff. Correct me if I'm calculating wrong. But if I can wall two pokemons with a single one, in the end I will have an unbreakable defensive core of 3 pokemons (2*3=6 I believe), which leaves me 3 pokemons to build an offensive core (6-3=3). So saying that we should not be picking defensive pokemons when they can wall a large part of the opposite team and spread status is not something I understand (moreover Slowbro is likely to wall the incoming Physical sweepers from team 2).
From my point of view, Jellicent can burn when Slowbro can ThunderWave. At the moment Twave is what we almost NEED. Whereas WoW is not far from being useless against the already picked pokemons.
So Slowbro brings more support.
Moreover it can burn aswell with Scald, and Jellicent got one single attacking move.. Surf
Taunt? we all see the speed invested, and Jellicent is not something hard to outspeed. The Taunt is likely to be a totally loss slot. Taunt Heatran is useless because he won't stay in on Jellicent and you better try to deal damage.
So yes, I'm really looking for your explanation on what a slow Taunter, with one single attacking move can bring, with one single low accuracy Status move, especially when he's crippled is annoyed by hazards, thus by switching in and out.
If it's about the spin block, you criticized me for chosing a Spinner before hazards, and now you seem willing to chose a Spin Blocker before a Spinner. I don't think you were fair here too.
On the other hand Slowbro can hit on two sides, get a Burn or a Paralysis, and won't get killed anytime soon with Regenerator. That's some other support skills.
I don't see how you lose momentum by the way, you seem to underestimate a little what can do a Paralysis on most of the pokemons of this Metagame.
I thought that I cleared any doubt on Slowbro's ability to not slow down that much the team. It is not only a wall for all the reasons I said, he can 2HKO both of the picks at the moment and "kill" them with Paralysis, I don't see Jellicent doing the same at all. So in terms of slowing the team, there is no comparison possible.
And I just realised that you did the cleaver post about not chosing a spinner, so I'll use it to criticise Starmie :
"I'm also not a big fan of Starmie either, albeit the idea is correct in my opinion. It is obvious that team 2 is going to eventually use hazards, so saving a spot for a spinner eventually is a good idea- however, I do not think it is so right now. Spinning is a very subjective strategy, as the effectiveness depends on the spinner and the team it faces. Choosing a spinner before the opponent even shows hazards is a bad idea, since there are so many more ways to set hazards then there are to spin them. If we restrict ourselves to Starmie now, this can easily be exploited by team 2, and they could choose a pokemon that is able to set hazards past Starmie (Ferrothorn, for example) That would leave us in a sticky situation. "
I bolded what I did change (it was just Starmie over Claydol and 1 for 2). And I increased the size of the most important part. I totally agree with you by the way, you really did open my eyes on this point, we should not rush for a spinner at all, and we should not rush for a spin blocker aswell isn't it?
For the Gothitelle part, our whole team for now is composed of 2 pokemons. So yes, probably she can, but a simple U-Turn kills her. Moreover Gothitelle comes on Jellicent as easily.
Jellicent can burn?
Well Slowbro can TWave with better accuracy, so we can run anything like Ttar or Scizor able to 0HKO the Gothitelle for sure after.
So yes, this argument about Gothitelle is a little annoying and unfair, because as I said, we can play around it pretty easily depending on Gothitelle set, and Slowbro is not the worst thing we could get trapped giving what he can do.
So submit this Gothitelle set for the next steps if you want, but I'm pretty sure you won't because there will be an easy want to abuse the weaknesses of the set you'll submit.
At least if you were defending the Latias submission, I could understand, but defending Jellicent with your line of logic is not really plausible and fair I believe.
H-C's Latias.
Melee Mewtwo
I think Rotom-W would be marginally better than Jellicent (TWave and Volt Switch, although the lack of reliable recovery and Ghost typing are disappointing). It laughs at Heatran and can probably take a Secret Sword or Hydro Pump from Keldeo.
I have another post on the matter to make though.
I think Rotom-W would be marginally better than Jellicent (TWave and Volt Switch, although the lack of reliable recovery and Ghost typing are disappointing). It laughs at Heatran and can probably take a Secret Sword or Hydro Pump from Keldeo.
I have another post on the matter to make though.
DarkBlazeR Hard counters are pretty cool, I guess, and spinblocking helps as well.