Are we seriously going to discuss Ninetales for one whole week? We've been at it for less than half a day and we unanimously agree that it is a shitty excuse for a 'mon and that the only thing it can do is turn Venusaur into one mean motherfucker.
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Pokemon of the Week #16: Latias
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Am I the only one that appreciates ninetales getting drought?
Seriously Ninetales is really good. I love bringing it around ninetales just because it can screw up rain where it hurts. Though I find the attacker set on it's analysis garbage as there is absolute no reason for it to be packing hidden power ice.
Favorite set will always be choice specs. Choice specs on ninetales can hurt thanks to drought powering up it's stab. Overheat brings the hurts even to resisted targets when it comes in. Covered by hidden power ground the best way to piss off a hail team and energy ball which actually hurts politoed believe it or not.
Seriously Ninetales is really good. I love bringing it around ninetales just because it can screw up rain where it hurts. Though I find the attacker set on it's analysis garbage as there is absolute no reason for it to be packing hidden power ice.
Favorite set will always be choice specs. Choice specs on ninetales can hurt thanks to drought powering up it's stab. Overheat brings the hurts even to resisted targets when it comes in. Covered by hidden power ground the best way to piss off a hail team and energy ball which actually hurts politoed believe it or not.
Something about an offensive choice set on a pokémon that has to switch in and out several times during the match and is weak to stealth rock just doesn't sound right to everyone, you know.
Choice Specs is used on moltres despite the fact it has an even bigger stealth rock weakness and moltres switches alot as well. Choiced fire types not named heatran are incredibly underrated in ou.
Moltres reached an astounding 0.3% usage in december so I don't see how it's any relevant
Choiced fire types are not underrated - they just require good rapin spid support. Being a fire type in OU is hard enough already; but having to lock yourself into one move only means you'll be more easily forced out. Which only means you'll take more SR damage.
Since everyone and their mother can force Ninetales out, I really don't think that switching out because of the Choice item is any more difficult on the fox to be honest. If you're going to be jumping into the battle field because you need to put sun up and you're going to die anyways, you can at least try to hit hard.
It isn't as if Ninetales wasn't switching in with rocks just to set up Sun if that's the better play.
It isn't as if Ninetales wasn't switching in with rocks just to set up Sun if that's the better play.
Alternatively, you can tailor your 'Tales so it survives as long as possible, thus keeping your weather up as long as possible. 'Tales' lifespan is already pretty short; it can't really afford to run CB or Specs sets like 'Toed or Ttar.
*sigh*
Ninetales' best set is the specially defensive set, y'know, the one you always end up foddering as quickly as you can since you know it works just like U-turn -- it gives you immidete switch advantage once its dead and even that's better than what it's supposed to do (outside of setting sun) which is..... to live? And die? The only reason you ever keep tales alive is when your opponent's opposing weather inducer is still alive; otherwise, you sack it the first chance you get (aka Turn 1).
I'm going to agree with Clubbing in the respect that (a) Ninetales sucks outside of drought (look at all its sets... and tell me what the fuck its supposed to do. Seriously, the sdef set looks like a death fodder set that uses Sunny Day to keep weather, Roar to prevent set up, and two filler moves that have zero importance -- the special bulk is just to live a Hurricane from Torn) and (b) discussing even RU pokemon like Golurk or Azumaril would be better than spending an entire week on Ninetales.
Ninetales' best set is the specially defensive set, y'know, the one you always end up foddering as quickly as you can since you know it works just like U-turn -- it gives you immidete switch advantage once its dead and even that's better than what it's supposed to do (outside of setting sun) which is..... to live? And die? The only reason you ever keep tales alive is when your opponent's opposing weather inducer is still alive; otherwise, you sack it the first chance you get (aka Turn 1).
I'm going to agree with Clubbing in the respect that (a) Ninetales sucks outside of drought (look at all its sets... and tell me what the fuck its supposed to do. Seriously, the sdef set looks like a death fodder set that uses Sunny Day to keep weather, Roar to prevent set up, and two filler moves that have zero importance -- the special bulk is just to live a Hurricane from Torn) and (b) discussing even RU pokemon like Golurk or Azumaril would be better than spending an entire week on Ninetales.
Rapid Spin support is only really nessecary for 1 possible choiced fire type in OU and thats specs ninetales, which is incredibly rare. Infernape and Heatran are both neutral to SR and Volcarona much prefers the freedom of switching moves that quiver dance offers. The true problem with choiced fire types is that in the current OU Politoed can easily switch in and stomach a choiced fire attack, heatrans noticably and they both suffer other problems that make them undesirable. Infernape is hard to switch in initially and the only thing that seperates him from terrakion as a choice user is U-Turn, and a differant secondary STAB, unless you really want to use u-turn / spam flare blitz under sun (hard to pull off) then terrakion completly outclasses.
On heatran, Specs Heatran is a pretty cool set. Fire Blast under Sun is very hard to tank when coupled with coverage moves to nail certain switch ins, if your opponent was dumb enough to let you get a flash fire boost your pretty much breaking through anything not boasting an immunity. If you use the scarf set you trade power for a noticeable bump in speed but you are easier to wall and are still quite slow by current OU standards. The choice heatran sets have to deal with the large amount of fast fighting types in OU as well as the large amount of bulky waters. It can catch stuff by suprise, but getting it in to wreck havoc is pretty hard in a metagame where fighting, water and earthquake are all very common although Lati@s after DM or an outraging dragonite are pretty cool switch in points. Its pretty good in theory but when you get on the ladder it doesn't work as well.
Since this is about ninetales prolly have to post something about it. The SubDisable set Vermane posted is something I saw on the ladder recently and it managed to do a pretty good job of wearing down my politoed, Disabling its surf and then will-o-wisping the switch in to gradually wear down my team. It recovered nearly all of the lost HP by the end of the sub disable cycle and every time I let it switch in it was very annoying to force it out. In the end I managed to keep SR + a layer of spikes up so it lost a lot of its durability and wasn't able to function very well so keeping hazards off the field for it was ideal but as is the same for every ninetales set. Sun itself hasn't been too great since gene left the tier, after the current suspects sun may or may not become better, depends on the results i guess
EDIT: Why is everyone whinging about tales being poke of the week, i tbh want to hear what stuff people have been using on it / ideal team mates (aside from duggy + venu) to make it succesful as i have been struggling to run sun to great success post genesect.
EDIT2: @ClubbingSealClub OU fire types, I realize both of those 2 are viable but they face the same problems as the other 2 (bulky waters in abundance, rain, generally slow in the current meta) and to boot they are both weak to SR.
Victini and Darmanitan are OU viable and both run choice sets, idk why you left them out.
Ninetales needs the discussion. It is shit, but talking about what it can do is the only way to figure out how to get around it being shit. Since it'll be OU for the foreseeable future, figuring out a way to make it work is insanely helpful for Sun teams.
What would make ninetails good/ Fire types better in general is if she gets better crippling moves (Like tickle, which is surprisingly effective in certain circumstances when baiting a switch) and reliable recovery tools.
The purpose of Ninetales being the Pokemon of the Week isn't to talk about what it lacks, but to talk about the different movesets you all have tried. I've been very disappointed at the discussion thus far. Are there any cool Ninetales set ideas you all have tried? Keep in mind, Sunny Day Ninetales wasn't even standard until half-way through BW!
Here is an innovative and rare set that i have used in the past to decent success:
Ninetales @ Lefties
EVs: standard spread for defensive Tales
nature: ''
- Fire Spin
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- Protect / Sub
- Disable
This set aims to beat any Tyranitar and Politoed by itself, except from Scarf variants. Status them the first time they come in and then switch out. The next time they come in use Fire Spin and then disable their dangerous move with either Protect+Disable or Sub+Disable. You can even use Sub + Protect or Sub + Pain Split to last long enough, but Protect + Disable is usually the best choice. Fire Spin lasts 4 turns min, which means that the opposing Pokemon will take 12.5%*4 (burn damage) + 12.5% (SR damage) = 62.5% damage minimum over those 4 turns. Add in 25% damage from Fire Spin if the opponent isn't holidng Lefties (4*6.25%) and a very little residual damage beforehand and you have a dead Ttar/Toed. The bad things about this set are that you have no real fire move to attack with, it relies on surprise value, and that Fire Spin can fucking miss.
Ninetales @ Lefties
EVs: standard spread for defensive Tales
nature: ''
- Fire Spin
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- Protect / Sub
- Disable
This set aims to beat any Tyranitar and Politoed by itself, except from Scarf variants. Status them the first time they come in and then switch out. The next time they come in use Fire Spin and then disable their dangerous move with either Protect+Disable or Sub+Disable. You can even use Sub + Protect or Sub + Pain Split to last long enough, but Protect + Disable is usually the best choice. Fire Spin lasts 4 turns min, which means that the opposing Pokemon will take 12.5%*4 (burn damage) + 12.5% (SR damage) = 62.5% damage minimum over those 4 turns. Add in 25% damage from Fire Spin if the opponent isn't holidng Lefties (4*6.25%) and a very little residual damage beforehand and you have a dead Ttar/Toed. The bad things about this set are that you have no real fire move to attack with, it relies on surprise value, and that Fire Spin can fucking miss.
This set is somewhat gimicky but I think it could be handy on the right team.
Ninetales@choice scarf
Trait:drought
Nature: timid
evs: 252 spatk, 252 speed, 4 anywhere but hp
Moves:
overheat
foul play
flamethrower/hidden power ground/energy ball
disable/energy ball/ hidden power ground
I saw that ninetales got foul play in it's tutor so I wanted to see if it can work on it and it makes a pretty reasonable revenge killer with some utility prowess. Please note that this ninetales works better on teams that don't depend on the weather to succeed.
Overheat is used since it needs all the power it can muster to make a dent on the opponent. Foul play can prove to be a hassle to dragon dance users. Haxorus is probably the most comical example of them all. Flamethrower is a secondary stab for if overheat is undesirable however hidden power ground can take it's place as well as Energy ball. Disable is used to force out choiced users that can be handled in it's speed tier. The stated coverage moves can be placed there as well.
additional notes:
obviously it's special attack is not that great so the coverage moves tend to be if you need the move over anything else. Faster hard hitting scarf users will force it out any day. Also the obvious stealth rock weakness. Ninetales foes, tyranitar and politoed, will need to delt with by some one else as outside of a choice band t-tar disable will not be a reasonable answer since it will force the switch anyway.
Great team members for this set would be conkeldurr as it has surprisingly good synergy with ninetales. Also terrakion thanks to the dual stab as it would help take care of volcarona to prevent it's own sun from being exploited. Also anything with an ice shard would help alot to prevent venusaur from doing the same. Mamoswine would be the most helpful although you would have to pay attention to fire moves. As for defensive team mates, that is still in the dark for me.
Ninetales@choice scarf
Trait:drought
Nature: timid
evs: 252 spatk, 252 speed, 4 anywhere but hp
Moves:
overheat
foul play
flamethrower/hidden power ground/energy ball
disable/energy ball/ hidden power ground
I saw that ninetales got foul play in it's tutor so I wanted to see if it can work on it and it makes a pretty reasonable revenge killer with some utility prowess. Please note that this ninetales works better on teams that don't depend on the weather to succeed.
Overheat is used since it needs all the power it can muster to make a dent on the opponent. Foul play can prove to be a hassle to dragon dance users. Haxorus is probably the most comical example of them all. Flamethrower is a secondary stab for if overheat is undesirable however hidden power ground can take it's place as well as Energy ball. Disable is used to force out choiced users that can be handled in it's speed tier. The stated coverage moves can be placed there as well.
additional notes:
obviously it's special attack is not that great so the coverage moves tend to be if you need the move over anything else. Faster hard hitting scarf users will force it out any day. Also the obvious stealth rock weakness. Ninetales foes, tyranitar and politoed, will need to delt with by some one else as outside of a choice band t-tar disable will not be a reasonable answer since it will force the switch anyway.
Great team members for this set would be conkeldurr as it has surprisingly good synergy with ninetales. Also terrakion thanks to the dual stab as it would help take care of volcarona to prevent it's own sun from being exploited. Also anything with an ice shard would help alot to prevent venusaur from doing the same. Mamoswine would be the most helpful although you would have to pay attention to fire moves. As for defensive team mates, that is still in the dark for me.
I've used Scarf Tales before for the lolz, and let me tell you: it sucks.
I had originally used it to lol troll those Scarf Genesect leads back when it wasn't banned, but I found its lack of power (even if I tried modest) very disappointing alongside its horrible coverage and "decent" speed. Furthermore, its SR weak and is horrible for revenge killing for the above reasons.
Also, it sucks at winning the weather war, which is Tales' main job. Why would I need a scarfer anyway when Chloro sweepers are fast enough to sweep on their own and to outspeed most scarfers?
I had originally used it to lol troll those Scarf Genesect leads back when it wasn't banned, but I found its lack of power (even if I tried modest) very disappointing alongside its horrible coverage and "decent" speed. Furthermore, its SR weak and is horrible for revenge killing for the above reasons.
Also, it sucks at winning the weather war, which is Tales' main job. Why would I need a scarfer anyway when Chloro sweepers are fast enough to sweep on their own and to outspeed most scarfers?
Check the OP, the week isn't over for 5 days. Additionally, there is much more to be discussed. First of all, what are some good sun partners? I've seen Trick Room sun, for example. What spinners (or magic bouncers) do you find to work the best? Is Dugtrio support mandatory in Sun? What are some niche Pokemon that work in sun?
Scarf NineTrolls is the only thing I miss about the Gene days. Starting the battle 6-5 was always nice, until turn 2 when it was back to 5-5 because Tales died. Even with the Scarf, I would run Wisp to deal with lead Tyranitars and Terrakions, got some surprise cripples. Outside of surprise factor though, ScarfTales BLOWS.
Honestly though, I'm glad Tales got Mon of the week because like someone above said we need to discuss it to find a way to work it. I like the Sub-Disable idea, and will certainly be trying that out on my next Sun team.
My issue with SubDisableTales is that, unlike with Gengar, many Pokemon have more than one move that can break Ninetales' sub. Gengar abuses his immunities to Fighting, Ground and, to a lesser extent, Normal, to disable attacks because (ostensibly, anyway) few Pokemon have more than one move to hit Gengar (e.g. as soon as you disable Terrakion's Stone Edge, he can't touch you). And even on Gengar it doesn't work out so well. Using Disable on Ninetales will really only stopped Choice'd attackers, and will do very little against anything else.
Plus I hate the idea of Substitute on Ninetales in the first place; you're already losing a quarter of your health every time you switch in, no reason to make the poor thing lose more.
Getting Ninetales to pull its weight is part of what makes Sun unique. Everyone knows she has subpar stats and a shallow movepool, but I think she has enough to be above fodder status. She only exists within the context of Drought, so the fact that it's her only redeeming quality is somewhat irrelevant. Back to discussing sets...
I prefer to build Ninetales defensively. Her most important contributions (Sun and WoW) don't benefit from SpA. I've tried both Def and SpD spreads and surprisingly enough the Def one has some merit (credit to SJCrew for this spread). I believe the spread was 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe. This spread accentuates her role as a burn-spreader and lets her counter most Scizor sets like a boss.
Here's what I tend to go with:
Ninetales @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 120 (SpD/Def) / 136 Spe
Nature: Timid
- [Staple]-Sunny Day
- [Staple]-Will-o-Wisp
- [Attack]-Flamethrower
- [Utility]-Roar
Aside from Ninetales specifically, I think post-Genesect Sun teams are simply in a rut. This appears to be the current core:
-Ninetales (Obv.)
-Dugtrio (Counters Sun's counters--sometimes replaced by Terrakion.)
-Xatu (Sun loses to entry hazards. He helps.)
-Venusaur (Let's not kid ourselves. Most teams use a chlorophyll sweeper. Him.)
-#5 (usually a revenge killer)
-#6 (usually a wall breaker)
A 4-man core is pretty well defined and leaves only so much room for adjustment. Regardless, this seems to be one of if not the most effective Sun core atm. So maybe a more interesting question to ask ourselves might be...who best fills those last 2 spots? Some might say that's too off-topic, but with a poke as picky as Ninetales, I'm not so sure. Thoughts?
I prefer to build Ninetales defensively. Her most important contributions (Sun and WoW) don't benefit from SpA. I've tried both Def and SpD spreads and surprisingly enough the Def one has some merit (credit to SJCrew for this spread). I believe the spread was 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe. This spread accentuates her role as a burn-spreader and lets her counter most Scizor sets like a boss.
Here's what I tend to go with:
Ninetales @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 120 (SpD/Def) / 136 Spe
Nature: Timid
- [Staple]-Sunny Day
- [Staple]-Will-o-Wisp
- [Attack]-Flamethrower
- [Utility]-Roar
Aside from Ninetales specifically, I think post-Genesect Sun teams are simply in a rut. This appears to be the current core:
-Ninetales (Obv.)
-Dugtrio (Counters Sun's counters--sometimes replaced by Terrakion.)
-Xatu (Sun loses to entry hazards. He helps.)
-Venusaur (Let's not kid ourselves. Most teams use a chlorophyll sweeper. Him.)
-#5 (usually a revenge killer)
-#6 (usually a wall breaker)
A 4-man core is pretty well defined and leaves only so much room for adjustment. Regardless, this seems to be one of if not the most effective Sun core atm. So maybe a more interesting question to ask ourselves might be...who best fills those last 2 spots? Some might say that's too off-topic, but with a poke as picky as Ninetales, I'm not so sure. Thoughts?
It's certainly an option, but I find that Xatu beats the vast majority of rock setters. Xatu can stand up to all the defensive setters (Ferry, Forry, Skarm, etc) and has some interesting tricks against some of the offensive ones. For instance, Tyranitar hoping to set up rocks gets promptly U-Turned into Dugtrio who proceeds to smash him. Terrakion also meets a similar fate, although the outcomes may vary (pending choice sets).
In a perfect world, the team would have Xatu plus an emergency spinner, but finding room for such a thing is extremely difficult. Sun already dedicates half its team slots to necessities and near-staples. Starmie makes for an interesting choice for a situation like this, because she can both spin and function as a niche revenge killer with Bolt/Beam/Spin/Trick (awkward yet potentially useful set).
One possible exception would be if you're using Ninetales on a (...wait for it...) defensive sun team. This is a whole other can of worms though and its viability is rightfully scrutinized.
Ninetales actually doesn't have such a shallow movepool, it lacks decent offensive options, but it's a rather mediocre offensive pokemon anyways.
And regarding Scarftales, its surprise factor is obviously its biggest strength, but being rather unpredictable is a huge advantage as far as Scarfers go.
Edit: Actually I didn't know 'Tales learned Foul Play, that's not half bad.