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General Doubles Metagame Thread
- Thread starter Pocket
- Start date
- Status
I could, but I'm currently playing in the International Tour on WiFi, so I'll do it later. Ferrothorn is still ridiculous.
Ferrothorn is only good if you whore Protect.
Scout fire/fighting moves, switch to a resist and let it heal all that damage with leech seed.
Another thing... Why do people always say switching is uncommon in doubles? I switch more often in doubles than in singles tbh. Mainly because you don't necessarily lose momentum because you can still KO something that turn. It also resets Intimidate, Fake Out and Protect/Detect/Wide Guard.
Scout fire/fighting moves, switch to a resist and let it heal all that damage with leech seed.
Another thing... Why do people always say switching is uncommon in doubles? I switch more often in doubles than in singles tbh. Mainly because you don't necessarily lose momentum because you can still KO something that turn. It also resets Intimidate, Fake Out and Protect/Detect/Wide Guard.
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou8431968 Toxicroak vs Ferrothorn settled once and for all.
Standard nasty plot also wins! http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-ou8432152
As does Bulk Up http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou8432311
Standard nasty plot also wins! http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-ou8432152
As does Bulk Up http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou8432311
You're such an evil monkey.
The HP Fire set was pure lulz and I laughed quite a bit at this testing.
However, we did play two games and went 1 : 1 against my Sun with his Sand and Rain, in that order. I managed to save the Sand game, but the Rain game wouldn't save for some reason or another. Both great games though, and the rain team was a close match. I did pretty much steamroll his Sand though.
I'll post the Sand match when I get back to my computer. I have the link saved there.
Fun games Nyttyn, although Ferroboss still rocks in Doubles.
Edit: Zarel, I do think Ally Switch is bugged out in Doubles for the moment, but a question nonetheless, if you were to use Ally Switch on, say, a weather setter or Intimidater, would the Ability reproduce? Or is just a strait switch of placement?
game 1: http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles8430856
Sand vs Sun
I went into this game not really aware of what Blank's strategy was, leaving to me not realizing he would call my offenses in some very risky plays. Quite a few groan-worthy moves on my part as a result.
Game 2:
Rain vs Sun
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles8431377
Won this time due to realizing BlankZero's philosphy, battle wise. Ferrothron OHKO'd in the RAIN 2 weak. Had some pretty stupid moves, like rain dancing w/o protect turn 1 forgetting speed is calculated at the start of the turn.
Also no blank, it won't reactivate. You'd have to skill swap it.
Sand vs Sun
I went into this game not really aware of what Blank's strategy was, leaving to me not realizing he would call my offenses in some very risky plays. Quite a few groan-worthy moves on my part as a result.
Game 2:
Rain vs Sun
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles8431377
Won this time due to realizing BlankZero's philosphy, battle wise. Ferrothron OHKO'd in the RAIN 2 weak. Had some pretty stupid moves, like rain dancing w/o protect turn 1 forgetting speed is calculated at the start of the turn.
Also no blank, it won't reactivate. You'd have to skill swap it.
I've been playing this metagame for the past few days and I'm hooked!
Easily my favourite metagame at the moment due to the fast paced nature and unpredictability
I've been running sand, which has proven to be pretty effective teamed up with Excadrill.
Gastrodon is sometimes a pain but some people just aren't playing it well enough.. letting it die too quickly. I usually target it because I hate the thing and they keep it in when I can definitely KO it. Another surprise annoyance is Cherrim..
Easily my favourite metagame at the moment due to the fast paced nature and unpredictability
I've been running sand, which has proven to be pretty effective teamed up with Excadrill.
Gastrodon is sometimes a pain but some people just aren't playing it well enough.. letting it die too quickly. I usually target it because I hate the thing and they keep it in when I can definitely KO it. Another surprise annoyance is Cherrim..
Haha, time to drop a serious bombshell I've been abusing for awhile.
Min- Min Max Max+
HP
- 311 374 -
Atk
140 156 219 240
Def
149 166 229 251
SpA
275 306 369 405
SpD
221 246 309 339
Spe
212 236 299 328
Oh god. Volcarona. Ahahaha. AAHAHAHHA! POWER! OVERWHEMLING POW-*cough* Volcarona is an extremely good pokemon right now. First thing that will come to eye is the base stats: Obscene 306 base special attack? Workable 236 base speed? Amazing! And it just gets better. Sporting 311/166/246 bulk, Volcarona has just enough HP to set up in the face of many pokemon, with the resistances to boot - Fighting, Grass, Ice, Bug, and Steel resistances. The first four are the only really important ones. It also only fears three attacking types - unfortunately, they're Water, Rock, and Flying. Rock is a very big deal because of Rock Slide, which is on a lot of mons.
But just look at the positives! The power, the STABs...The best part? Volcarona's Heat Wave will always, no matter what, OHKO Standard Ferrothorn with a simple Fire Gem. At worst, Volcarona gets a 2hko. Without any item boost. At +0 SpAtk. In the Rain. And it knocks it down so low that its partner is pretty much going to kill it unless Ferrothorn hard walls them.
Yeouch. Yeah, that's the kind of power Volcarona's packing. From Heat Wave. That last one is at +0, with a neutral nature, and with a spread move, which only deals 75 BP because of the spread cut. With no item. In the sodding rain.
Under the Rain, it also has access to the amazing move Hurricane at 100% accuracy. Say what you will about the lack of STAB, 120 BP flying coverage that has a moderate confuse chance is absolute insane on a pokemon with Volcarona's stats.
Finally, it has access to Rage Powder, which is a really cool move that you can pull out of your ass to win games.
Make sure to pair Volcarona with something that threatens rock types, due to the fact that Volcarona flat out loses to Rock Types unless it is packing Hidden Power Fighting.
I invite you to find out your own amazing Volcarona sets and share them with the thread For now, here's my own personal drizzle moth set that shows the versatility of this amazing bug type (I never thought I'd ever say amazing bug type):
Volcy~ (F) @ Fire Gem
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Heat Wave
- Quiver Dance
- Hurricane
- Protect
Meanwhile, here's a standard Volcarona - Hitmontop - Latios core that's obscenely scary. Very hard to stop and it'll wreck your opponent's shit 90% of the time even if they can stop it.
Min- Min Max Max+
HP
- 311 374 -
Atk
140 156 219 240
Def
149 166 229 251
SpA
275 306 369 405
SpD
221 246 309 339
Spe
212 236 299 328
Oh god. Volcarona. Ahahaha. AAHAHAHHA! POWER! OVERWHEMLING POW-*cough* Volcarona is an extremely good pokemon right now. First thing that will come to eye is the base stats: Obscene 306 base special attack? Workable 236 base speed? Amazing! And it just gets better. Sporting 311/166/246 bulk, Volcarona has just enough HP to set up in the face of many pokemon, with the resistances to boot - Fighting, Grass, Ice, Bug, and Steel resistances. The first four are the only really important ones. It also only fears three attacking types - unfortunately, they're Water, Rock, and Flying. Rock is a very big deal because of Rock Slide, which is on a lot of mons.
But just look at the positives! The power, the STABs...The best part? Volcarona's Heat Wave will always, no matter what, OHKO Standard Ferrothorn with a simple Fire Gem. At worst, Volcarona gets a 2hko. Without any item boost. At +0 SpAtk. In the Rain. And it knocks it down so low that its partner is pretty much going to kill it unless Ferrothorn hard walls them.
Yeouch. Yeah, that's the kind of power Volcarona's packing. From Heat Wave. That last one is at +0, with a neutral nature, and with a spread move, which only deals 75 BP because of the spread cut. With no item. In the sodding rain.
Under the Rain, it also has access to the amazing move Hurricane at 100% accuracy. Say what you will about the lack of STAB, 120 BP flying coverage that has a moderate confuse chance is absolute insane on a pokemon with Volcarona's stats.
Finally, it has access to Rage Powder, which is a really cool move that you can pull out of your ass to win games.
Make sure to pair Volcarona with something that threatens rock types, due to the fact that Volcarona flat out loses to Rock Types unless it is packing Hidden Power Fighting.
I invite you to find out your own amazing Volcarona sets and share them with the thread For now, here's my own personal drizzle moth set that shows the versatility of this amazing bug type (I never thought I'd ever say amazing bug type):
Volcy~ (F) @ Fire Gem
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Heat Wave
- Quiver Dance
- Hurricane
- Protect
Meanwhile, here's a standard Volcarona - Hitmontop - Latios core that's obscenely scary. Very hard to stop and it'll wreck your opponent's shit 90% of the time even if they can stop it.
ILuvNyt (Volcarona) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Heat Wave
- Bug Buzz
- Quiver Dance
- Protect
WOOSH (Latios) (M) @ Dragon Gem
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Substitute
- Protect
Karate Dan (Hitmontop) (M) @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Wide Guard
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Heat Wave
- Bug Buzz
- Quiver Dance
- Protect
WOOSH (Latios) (M) @ Dragon Gem
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Substitute
- Protect
Karate Dan (Hitmontop) (M) @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Wide Guard
I'm confused by the Keldeo running HP Fighting instead of Secret Sword.
Precaution against Ferrothorn. I don't want to rely on Focus Miss's accuracy, HP Fight usually gets the job done against it, and other things fight weak, and isn't a contact move which can realllly fuck you over sometimes. Only things I'd really want to nail with Secret over HP Fight are the blobs and Tyranitar, and Toxicroak can handle them both with extreme ease.
...Secret Sword isn't a contact move.
Then you better fix it because it's a contact move on PS! right now. Actually suicided on a Ferrothorn as a result. Wasn't a fun surprise. It was like one of those surprises your neighbor's dog leaves on your lawn.
nyttyn, that core that you posted about Volcarona is pretty much right out of VGC, I've used it before!
You're very right that it works incredibly well, and that Volc has use on semi-rain teams with Hurricane! (Also Heat Wave has 100 power before the spread damage decrease is factored in. :3)
Volcarona's Quiver Dance is actually possible to be made even more deadly with Simple Beam, and although it's gimmicky, if you can pull it off, that's a +2/+2/+2 Volcarona coming at you... and if Sun manages to get up and stay up, Heat Wave is incredible. (Even in the rain, +2 stats and Hurricane are great.)
Simple Beam was pretty trash in VGC. However, here in Smogon Doubles, we have Genesect. 99 base speed, and good typing. The only other real alternative is Linoone and Beheeyem...
And this brings me to another topic: Genesect! I haven't seen him anywhere! He's got the same type synergy as Scizor, has pretty decent defenses for a sweeper, and can run a versatile Expert Belt Special or Physical set. Where is he? Or will he appear later on...
You're very right that it works incredibly well, and that Volc has use on semi-rain teams with Hurricane! (Also Heat Wave has 100 power before the spread damage decrease is factored in. :3)
Volcarona's Quiver Dance is actually possible to be made even more deadly with Simple Beam, and although it's gimmicky, if you can pull it off, that's a +2/+2/+2 Volcarona coming at you... and if Sun manages to get up and stay up, Heat Wave is incredible. (Even in the rain, +2 stats and Hurricane are great.)
Simple Beam was pretty trash in VGC. However, here in Smogon Doubles, we have Genesect. 99 base speed, and good typing. The only other real alternative is Linoone and Beheeyem...
And this brings me to another topic: Genesect! I haven't seen him anywhere! He's got the same type synergy as Scizor, has pretty decent defenses for a sweeper, and can run a versatile Expert Belt Special or Physical set. Where is he? Or will he appear later on...
I used Genesect for a while in my trick room team. Faster than most bulky support but slower than the speed demons. The problem I found was with it's pretty meh movepool. You basically have to run 3 elemental attack and protect which is pretty easy to predict and doesn't hurt top usage pokemon enough (Cresselia, Tryanitar, Hitmontop etc). It's speed isn't good enough for it to be a sweeper so probably needs Icy Wind, paralysis support. It could work with the right support, it's just easier to run Latios.
Did you typo "Sacred Sword" instead of "Secret Sword"? Secret Sword has always been a noncontact move in PS.
I may have typo'd it in that case, which means I'm an absolute retard.
Point still stands on HP fighting though.
Anyways yeah, Genesect's really hurt in this meta by having to deal with two targets at once, plus download's random activation, plus his (by doubles standards) meh movepool. Not to mention a quadruple weakness to a common spread move. It can work, but it just needs too much support to really..well, work.
And Simple Beam's problem is that you have to hit the poke you want to simple with it first - this can be absolutely nightmarish on someone like Regigias or Dragonite, but isn't terribly good on things like Volcarona.
Also appologies to Zarel, that post came off as passive aggressive and I didn't mean it to. Sorry about that.
Point still stands on HP fighting though.
Anyways yeah, Genesect's really hurt in this meta by having to deal with two targets at once, plus download's random activation, plus his (by doubles standards) meh movepool. Not to mention a quadruple weakness to a common spread move. It can work, but it just needs too much support to really..well, work.
And Simple Beam's problem is that you have to hit the poke you want to simple with it first - this can be absolutely nightmarish on someone like Regigias or Dragonite, but isn't terribly good on things like Volcarona.
Also appologies to Zarel, that post came off as passive aggressive and I didn't mean it to. Sorry about that.
Okay this thread is really shit so lets discuss something interesting.
Skill Swap
Skill Swap will exchange the Abilities of the user and the target. Wonder Guard and Multiscale cannot be Skill Swapped. If the user switches out of battle after using this move, its original Ability will be restored.
Notable users: Cresselia, Blissey
Role Play
Role Play replaces the user's Ability with the target's Ability. Role Play cannot copy Wonder Guard or Multitype.
Notable users: Abomasnow, Mew, Latias, Thundurus, Landorus
Very cool abilities that open up a lot of new doors strategy-wise. Skill Swap has seen use in the past for gimmicky strategies with garbage Pokemon like Regigigas and Slaking, but I feel it has a ton of interesting uses that are waiting to be uncovered. Skill Swap has also seen some usage recently in the VGC metagame, with Wolfe Glick using a Skill Swap Cresselia + Heatran combination at 2012 Worlds and Huy Ha using a Skill Swap Serene Grace Blissey with Abomasnow and other Blizzard users.
Role Play is more widespread than Skill Swap and is learnt by, generally, more relevant Pokemon. However, it works a bit differently to Skill Swap, by copying the ability of the target instead of swapping abilities. As a result, its a bit less useful for setting up specific strategies like the ones listed above, but it ends up being very useful in a lot of match-ups. For example, you can clutch Role Play an Intimidate Landorus-T, Scrafty of Hitmontop to really mess-up your opponent, or Role Play a Swift Swim user against Rain to give you a very strong check to them. Role Play can also be used to reactive weathers by copying the weather ability from something like Tyranitar, Politoed or Abomasnow. I've started using Role Play as just a random 4th slot on some Pokemon as a pure clutch option in some select match-ups even though my team isn't built around the attack, as Skill Swap teams tend to be.
Although Skill Swap can do all this too, theres an added risk to it - if you are using Skill Swap its generally because the Pokemon using it has an excellent ability like Levitate (Cresselia), which has the chance of backfiring if you swap it to an opposing Pokemon. Swapping Cresselia's Levitate for Hitmontop's Intimidate, for example, could turn on you by allowing your opponent to freely throw around Earthquakes with less fear. However, despite this, Skill Swap can sometimes have a key role in removing the abilities from certain Pokemon, such as crippling bulky Thundurus-i by removing Prankster, and making Metagross Intimidate-susceptible by removing Clear Body.
So yeah, both very interesting support moves. Skill Swap is excellent at setting-up stuff like Levitate Heatran, but requires a lot of forward planning to pull-off more intricate strategies involving the opponents Pokemon. However, despite the higher risk and greater difficulty, the payouts are often huge. Role Play, however, isn't as great at setting up your own strategies as it is for just clutch moves in specific match-ups, and ends up being particularly effective against any teams utilising Swift Swim, Chlorophyll or Intimidate in particular, although for something like Bisharp, copying the likes of Landorus-T Levitate or Heatran Flash Fire can completely change the outcome of a game.
Thoughts? I feel both of these moves are still criminally underused given how important abilities are in Pokemon, especially in the fast paced doubles format.
Skill Swap
Skill Swap will exchange the Abilities of the user and the target. Wonder Guard and Multiscale cannot be Skill Swapped. If the user switches out of battle after using this move, its original Ability will be restored.
Notable users: Cresselia, Blissey
Role Play
Role Play replaces the user's Ability with the target's Ability. Role Play cannot copy Wonder Guard or Multitype.
Notable users: Abomasnow, Mew, Latias, Thundurus, Landorus
Very cool abilities that open up a lot of new doors strategy-wise. Skill Swap has seen use in the past for gimmicky strategies with garbage Pokemon like Regigigas and Slaking, but I feel it has a ton of interesting uses that are waiting to be uncovered. Skill Swap has also seen some usage recently in the VGC metagame, with Wolfe Glick using a Skill Swap Cresselia + Heatran combination at 2012 Worlds and Huy Ha using a Skill Swap Serene Grace Blissey with Abomasnow and other Blizzard users.
Role Play is more widespread than Skill Swap and is learnt by, generally, more relevant Pokemon. However, it works a bit differently to Skill Swap, by copying the ability of the target instead of swapping abilities. As a result, its a bit less useful for setting up specific strategies like the ones listed above, but it ends up being very useful in a lot of match-ups. For example, you can clutch Role Play an Intimidate Landorus-T, Scrafty of Hitmontop to really mess-up your opponent, or Role Play a Swift Swim user against Rain to give you a very strong check to them. Role Play can also be used to reactive weathers by copying the weather ability from something like Tyranitar, Politoed or Abomasnow. I've started using Role Play as just a random 4th slot on some Pokemon as a pure clutch option in some select match-ups even though my team isn't built around the attack, as Skill Swap teams tend to be.
Although Skill Swap can do all this too, theres an added risk to it - if you are using Skill Swap its generally because the Pokemon using it has an excellent ability like Levitate (Cresselia), which has the chance of backfiring if you swap it to an opposing Pokemon. Swapping Cresselia's Levitate for Hitmontop's Intimidate, for example, could turn on you by allowing your opponent to freely throw around Earthquakes with less fear. However, despite this, Skill Swap can sometimes have a key role in removing the abilities from certain Pokemon, such as crippling bulky Thundurus-i by removing Prankster, and making Metagross Intimidate-susceptible by removing Clear Body.
So yeah, both very interesting support moves. Skill Swap is excellent at setting-up stuff like Levitate Heatran, but requires a lot of forward planning to pull-off more intricate strategies involving the opponents Pokemon. However, despite the higher risk and greater difficulty, the payouts are often huge. Role Play, however, isn't as great at setting up your own strategies as it is for just clutch moves in specific match-ups, and ends up being particularly effective against any teams utilising Swift Swim, Chlorophyll or Intimidate in particular, although for something like Bisharp, copying the likes of Landorus-T Levitate or Heatran Flash Fire can completely change the outcome of a game.
Thoughts? I feel both of these moves are still criminally underused given how important abilities are in Pokemon, especially in the fast paced doubles format.
I was thinking this myself, I have been using entrainment with klutz audino and mimic shedinja. Pretty gimmicky but klutz renders leftovers useless, and shedinja with entrainment is...well....wonderous! (punpunpunpunpun)
I think I'd like to show an interesting pair I've been having pretty good success with
@ Choice Scarf
Trait: Drought
EVs: 4HP, 252Atk, 252Spe
Nature: Adamant (+Atk -SpAtk)
-Flare Blitz
-Zen Headbutt
-Quick Attack
-Return
Yes, it is a physical ninetales, you aren't going crazy. This thing alone doesn't have much purpose other than putting up sun, but when paired with it's partner, kills things like crazy!
@ Leftovers
Trait: Flower Gift
EVs: 252HP, 4SpAtk, 252SpDef
Nature: Calm (+SpDef -Atk)
-Giga Drain
-Protect
-Synthesis
-Aromatherapy
Cherrim! This little fella has so much awesomeness that just comes from flower gift. Ninetails Flare Blitz now hits just as strong as one from Darmanitan! Cherrim itself is surprisingly bulky on the special side and can stay alive for quite a while with Synthesis/Giga Drain+Protect allowing havoc to be wreaked!
These two offer a lot of surprise value and are very fun to use :P
A really interesting idea and I like the Flower Gift combo with physical Ninetales, but I'm curious as to how you actually use it. Do you lead with this to set up sun turn 1? If so it seems like it gets screwed over by slower weather.
Yea, Volcarona in doubles rocks. Quiver Dance combined with spread Heat Wave is too good, not to mention Bug Buzz to overcome Cresselia. Voodoo_pimp coupled the fiery mothra with Weavile for Fake Out and Ice Sharding Salamence, but I can definitely see Hitmontop being useful for removing Heatran. Blaziken48 posted a log earlier pairing Volcarona with another bug, Genesect! The latter is one of the few users with access to Simple Beam, which it used on Volcarona for a +2/+2/+2 QD boost ftw!
PENGUX!!!
Yea, Skill Swap is a cool ability that have been discussed in detail earlier by Level 51. He had Technician Mr. Mime skill swap with Mamoswine xD. Technician Ice Shard / Icicle Spear ftw, lol! Mr. Mime is a shitty Pokemon, but Skill Swap is a really underrated move in doubles, especially on other users like Bronzong or Cresselia. For instance, NixHex managed to keep his Sun up all game in his VGC match by Skill-swapping Drought to his Cresselia! DTC also Skill Swapped Spinda's Contrary onto Deoxys-A once for Psycho Boost that doubles its SpA for every use xD. It failed miserably, but it's certainly amazing what shit you can do with this move.
Roleplay is pretty cool in a similar vein, especially if it has better distribution. I think Skill Swap has more utility from what I've seen, though, since Skill Swap can swap abilities multiple times to re-activate Intimidate / weather / etc, but Roleplay can only be used once, and only benefits the user.
PENGUX!!!
Yea, Skill Swap is a cool ability that have been discussed in detail earlier by Level 51. He had Technician Mr. Mime skill swap with Mamoswine xD. Technician Ice Shard / Icicle Spear ftw, lol! Mr. Mime is a shitty Pokemon, but Skill Swap is a really underrated move in doubles, especially on other users like Bronzong or Cresselia. For instance, NixHex managed to keep his Sun up all game in his VGC match by Skill-swapping Drought to his Cresselia! DTC also Skill Swapped Spinda's Contrary onto Deoxys-A once for Psycho Boost that doubles its SpA for every use xD. It failed miserably, but it's certainly amazing what shit you can do with this move.
Roleplay is pretty cool in a similar vein, especially if it has better distribution. I think Skill Swap has more utility from what I've seen, though, since Skill Swap can swap abilities multiple times to re-activate Intimidate / weather / etc, but Roleplay can only be used once, and only benefits the user.
THIS HAS BEEN MORE OR LESS ENDORSED BY POCKET SO READ IT!
Hey everyone who's into Smogon Doubles:
That's cool! We like people into Smogon Doubles! And there have been a lot of good posts in this thread!
But there have also been a lot of bad ones. I'd just like to take a little time-out right here to remind people what posting habits we do, and don't like. Posting is more relaxed when you have an entire subforum of threads, but remember people we're trying to discuss an entire meta in this one thread. We need to keep the posting quality high if it's going to be a good discussion. With that said, here's some things to keep in mind for the future:
What we do like in this thread:
If you're coming here to post with *tested* observations of the meta, that's great! If you have novel ideas for sets that you have tried and which work, we welcome your post. If you need team advice, we're perfectly fine dispensing it if you ask with the relevant details - that often sparks good discussion. Post here with any battle logs you have. Last, and maybe most important - if you have provoking questions that will cause good discussions and are not a yes/no answer, absolutely ask them here. In general, if you're coming here to post actually about Smogon Doubles, this is the thread for you.
What we don't like in this thread:
This thread is for posts about Smogon Doubles, not all the bookkeeping that comes with Smogon Doubles. If your post is directed at a single person, it should probably be taken to VM or IRC (join us here!). If your post is needlessly abrasive, please don't even say it. If you and another person have been having a back-and-forth debate for too long, consider letting them have the last word so the discussion can move along. If your post can't be added on to by any person in the thread, it's probably not that good a post!
examples of posts we do and don't like:
GOOD:
Good discussion sparking question!
The whole darkrai discussion was a finer point of the thread
Replays are welcome too, as are thoughts
BAD:
Theorymon can be ok, but in general, TEST your ideas before you post about them. And when you do, more flesh!
No posts directed at another person are necessary. They don't contribute anything to discussion.
This is fairly unexplored turf; it's expected that we have mechanics questions. It's perfectly all right to answer them in the thread, actually, where people will see them. But when you do, please try to add a little substance on to your post also, so it's not /just/ an sqsa topic
The entire ferrothorn debate was pretty horrific. This is an example of how not to have a good discussion about a Pokemon in this thread; contrast with Darkrai.
you'll notice that the first link in both the "good posts" and "bad posts" category is by the same user, VarunR. That's because everyone can be a good poster - and everyone can be a bad poster. Monitor your post quality! Another point I'd like to make is that it's not just about what you say, but about how you say it. Nyttyn and I had the same points about why we shouldn't allow DW abilities in this tier, but the difference in how we stated it was vast, and it really does make a difference.
one last note: even if your post quality is high, make sure you're not "threadhogging." User BlankZero has FIFTY-NINE posts in a thread with 325 total posts. That's somewhere between 1/5 and 1/6. If you catch yourself posting that much, chill the heck out, man! Let other people speak!
EDIT: oh whoops i got ninja'd by actual discussion, I feel like I should weigh in.
Skill swap is one of those interesting moves, that runs gimmicky-but-not-too-gimmicky, so it's really tempting to try it out. However, from what I've seen of it in battle, it needs to be used judiciously, not often. Remember, swapping abilities doesn't make you invincible or anything :P. In general I've found that to be the problem with Skill Swap - people seem to want to use it, above all things, to swap immunity abilities. In doubles, even the bulkiest of tanks can be taken out with neutral double-targetting; weaknesses aren't everything like they are in Singles. Skill swap is much better employed for other abilities - skill swapping a weather ability, or Intimidate, both sound interesting. I've always been underwhelmed by Skill Swap personally, though. I always try to gauge any move by the metric "would I be better off just smacking shit around with some high-powered STABs?" and Skill Swap sadly tends to fall short. I'm not saying it's useless though, as its success in Worlds has proved. Just keep in mind, you don't have all day for setup.
Hey everyone who's into Smogon Doubles:
That's cool! We like people into Smogon Doubles! And there have been a lot of good posts in this thread!
But there have also been a lot of bad ones. I'd just like to take a little time-out right here to remind people what posting habits we do, and don't like. Posting is more relaxed when you have an entire subforum of threads, but remember people we're trying to discuss an entire meta in this one thread. We need to keep the posting quality high if it's going to be a good discussion. With that said, here's some things to keep in mind for the future:
What we do like in this thread:
If you're coming here to post with *tested* observations of the meta, that's great! If you have novel ideas for sets that you have tried and which work, we welcome your post. If you need team advice, we're perfectly fine dispensing it if you ask with the relevant details - that often sparks good discussion. Post here with any battle logs you have. Last, and maybe most important - if you have provoking questions that will cause good discussions and are not a yes/no answer, absolutely ask them here. In general, if you're coming here to post actually about Smogon Doubles, this is the thread for you.
What we don't like in this thread:
This thread is for posts about Smogon Doubles, not all the bookkeeping that comes with Smogon Doubles. If your post is directed at a single person, it should probably be taken to VM or IRC (join us here!). If your post is needlessly abrasive, please don't even say it. If you and another person have been having a back-and-forth debate for too long, consider letting them have the last word so the discussion can move along. If your post can't be added on to by any person in the thread, it's probably not that good a post!
examples of posts we do and don't like:
GOOD:
Good discussion sparking question!
The whole darkrai discussion was a finer point of the thread
Replays are welcome too, as are thoughts
BAD:
Theorymon can be ok, but in general, TEST your ideas before you post about them. And when you do, more flesh!
No posts directed at another person are necessary. They don't contribute anything to discussion.
This is fairly unexplored turf; it's expected that we have mechanics questions. It's perfectly all right to answer them in the thread, actually, where people will see them. But when you do, please try to add a little substance on to your post also, so it's not /just/ an sqsa topic
The entire ferrothorn debate was pretty horrific. This is an example of how not to have a good discussion about a Pokemon in this thread; contrast with Darkrai.
you'll notice that the first link in both the "good posts" and "bad posts" category is by the same user, VarunR. That's because everyone can be a good poster - and everyone can be a bad poster. Monitor your post quality! Another point I'd like to make is that it's not just about what you say, but about how you say it. Nyttyn and I had the same points about why we shouldn't allow DW abilities in this tier, but the difference in how we stated it was vast, and it really does make a difference.
one last note: even if your post quality is high, make sure you're not "threadhogging." User BlankZero has FIFTY-NINE posts in a thread with 325 total posts. That's somewhere between 1/5 and 1/6. If you catch yourself posting that much, chill the heck out, man! Let other people speak!
EDIT: oh whoops i got ninja'd by actual discussion, I feel like I should weigh in.
Skill swap is one of those interesting moves, that runs gimmicky-but-not-too-gimmicky, so it's really tempting to try it out. However, from what I've seen of it in battle, it needs to be used judiciously, not often. Remember, swapping abilities doesn't make you invincible or anything :P. In general I've found that to be the problem with Skill Swap - people seem to want to use it, above all things, to swap immunity abilities. In doubles, even the bulkiest of tanks can be taken out with neutral double-targetting; weaknesses aren't everything like they are in Singles. Skill swap is much better employed for other abilities - skill swapping a weather ability, or Intimidate, both sound interesting. I've always been underwhelmed by Skill Swap personally, though. I always try to gauge any move by the metric "would I be better off just smacking shit around with some high-powered STABs?" and Skill Swap sadly tends to fall short. I'm not saying it's useless though, as its success in Worlds has proved. Just keep in mind, you don't have all day for setup.
Lol @ Blank getting called out.. and I thought it was gonna be me haha
Anyway, I feel as if lower on the ladder is filled with gimmicks like Terracott, Skill Swap+Gigas, etc. Also, weather doesn't feel dominant AT ALL. I'd say that non-weather dominates with Trick Room being an extremely threatening pseudo-weather.
I think prankster paralysis and parahax in general is starting to catch on because it is really great. I think it's going to be centralizing/metagame defining eventually and I'd suggest people to run counters(L-rod, heal bell, etc).
I feel as if bulky waters and explosion are still underrated even though their usage has gone up some. Gigalith+ghost type can do damage to your team FAST if not prepared.
Gastrodon, Jellicent, Gyarados, Suicune, Manaphy, Milotic... heck I can't even finish listing all of the extremely useful bulky water types. I'd also go as far to say that running rain dance over drizzle is smart because these guys are A LOT more useful than Politoed(and you don't want to screw up your synergy).
I'd also like to mention that I think Togekiss is up there with the top guys. Hitmontop, Cresselia, Kingdra, Togekiss, Heatran, Reuniclus(TR teams), Gastrodon, Thundurus, Whimsicott completes the list of incredibly useful mons imo.
Also, I almost feel like Rain Dish Ludicolo outclasses Ferrothorn in doubles and is the best rain counter besides Gastrodon.
I'm sure Hail and Sun can be pretty threatening, but I almost never see them. The most useful mons aren't very threatened by weather strategies though except for the strangely uncommon Hurricane.
That's all I got for productive discussion after playing quite a bit.
Anyway, I feel as if lower on the ladder is filled with gimmicks like Terracott, Skill Swap+Gigas, etc. Also, weather doesn't feel dominant AT ALL. I'd say that non-weather dominates with Trick Room being an extremely threatening pseudo-weather.
I think prankster paralysis and parahax in general is starting to catch on because it is really great. I think it's going to be centralizing/metagame defining eventually and I'd suggest people to run counters(L-rod, heal bell, etc).
I feel as if bulky waters and explosion are still underrated even though their usage has gone up some. Gigalith+ghost type can do damage to your team FAST if not prepared.
Gastrodon, Jellicent, Gyarados, Suicune, Manaphy, Milotic... heck I can't even finish listing all of the extremely useful bulky water types. I'd also go as far to say that running rain dance over drizzle is smart because these guys are A LOT more useful than Politoed(and you don't want to screw up your synergy).
I'd also like to mention that I think Togekiss is up there with the top guys. Hitmontop, Cresselia, Kingdra, Togekiss, Heatran, Reuniclus(TR teams), Gastrodon, Thundurus, Whimsicott completes the list of incredibly useful mons imo.
Also, I almost feel like Rain Dish Ludicolo outclasses Ferrothorn in doubles and is the best rain counter besides Gastrodon.
I'm sure Hail and Sun can be pretty threatening, but I almost never see them. The most useful mons aren't very threatened by weather strategies though except for the strangely uncommon Hurricane.
That's all I got for productive discussion after playing quite a bit.
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