Landorus-I Discussion: Evaluating a Potential Suspect

[Pocket]

Agent Gibb, my reason to refrain people from talking about all the possible sets that Landorus-I possesses is because we end up having people saying shit like, "Landorus-I can do both physical and special set well, it can set up rocks, cm, set up a sub, it can sludge wave KO Celebi and Psychic KO Gengar, it can Gravity KO Rotom-W, it can be scarfed and kill your Starmie - halp it is unpredictable / has no counters!" People end up listing all the possibilities and assume that Landorus-I has 6+ moveslots to perform two or more of these roles. We can literally use this flawed method to ban every good Pokemon in OU, and it's sadly a flawed approach that I've seen bad and good players alike used in the past -_-

The fact of the matter is, it's a give-and-take. Let's take your example; if Landorus-I is using Sludge Wave, it would be over one of its coverage moves or Rock Polish. If Sludge Wave replaces Rock Polish, then that reduces Landorus-I's sweeping potential drastically, while I should not need to tell you that replacing HP Ice or Focus Blast for Sludge Wave would leave you with more checks and counters than the original set.

Yes, Landorus-I may use Sludge Wave to defeat Celebi or Gyarados, but it's an overall inferior non-broken set than the original - now I can expect Ferrothorn, Kyurem-Black, or hell even Skarmory to check it because it lacks Focus Blast now.

Yes, Landorus-I may use Sand Force instead of Sheer Force, but that means I do not need to worry about being swept by Rock Polish Landorus and free LO boosts.

Yes, Landorus-I may opt for U-turn instead of Rock Polish, but then I don't need to worry about being set-up bait for Rock Polish, and have more options to kill Lando-I.

Genesect is different, because its Scarf and Rock Polish sets both hugely influenced the metagame. Scarf Genesect was the best Scarfer around, rendering DD users, dragons, and fast psychic-types a liability. It fits the support characteristics of ubers to the tee. U-turn Sheer Force Lando-I or Scarf Lando-I do not possess the same impact as Scarf Genesect had in this metagame.

I'm all for discussing the various broken sets that Landorus-I may utilize. However, at the moment, Rock Polish Landorus-I is the only broken set available from my perspective. I am sorry that I jumped the gun and thought everybody agreed with this conclusion. So let's take a step back and focus on this topic: Identify and Explain the Landorus-I sets that you believe are suspect / ban-worthy. Once we identify the suspect-worthy set(s), the discussion will focus solely on the broken set(s).

 

[Sam]

I don't really think it's necessary to single out the 'broken' sets. The purpose is to suspect a pokemon, not a pokemon's set, right? If versatility does play a role in Landorus-I's case (which I believe it does), then we really shouldn't be so concerned with specific sets. There was never really a specific broken set for Deo-D (although it's a much different pokemon), and part of it's ability to get past anything with a variety of sets was most certainly a selling point for it. I don't think we should be discussing specific sets, but rather the pokemon as a whole.

 

[Ojama]

Did you think about the fact that you can lose a few Pokemons before identifying its Set?

Yes, Landorus-I may use Sludge Wave to defeat Celebi or Gyarados, but it's an overall inferior non-broken set than the original - now I can expect Ferrothorn, Kyurem-Black, or hell even Skarmory to check it because it lacks Focus Blast now.

What if you send in Celebi to handle Landorus and get wrecked by Sludge Wave? You just lose your Rain check and a ground resistance. Sludge Wave is used over RPolish btw, so yah cool you aren't getting swept by the Rpolish Set but you just lose an important member of your team. I don't think that you bring more than 2 Rain resistances + Landorus checks, so you are getting destroyed by something else then (or even by Landorus itself since Celebi is used in defensive teams and they rarely pack something else than Celebi to counter Landorus (DU's Team vs gr8)).

Yes, Landorus-I may use Sand Force instead of Sheer Force, but that means I do not need to worry about being swept by Rock Polish Landorus and free LO boosts.

Once again, do you really think that you will keep your Pokemons healthy before knowing its Set ? People always send in a special wall against Landorus (that is able to handle it and there aren't many counters) which means they're losing it against Physical Landorus : Celebi gets destroyed by U-Turn, Jellicent by Earthquake, Chansey/Blissey by Earthquake, Zapdos by Stone Edge, Lati@s by U-Turn. Cool, you aren't getting swept by RPolish Landorus and free LO Boosts but you lose your Special Wall.

Yes, Landorus-I may opt for U-turn instead of Rock Polish, but then I don't need to worry about being set-up bait for Rock Polish, and have more options to kill Lando-I.

I hope for you that you are using an offensive Team because Landorus doesn't need RP against Stalls and destroys them with U-Turn or Calm Mind (hi Celebi). I do agree that with U-Turn, you don't need to worry about being swept by Rpolish Landorus + it's not this fast so you probably have a few Pokemons that outspeed it (and kill it). Once again, you're probably losing an important member of your team before knowing it doesn't have Rpolish. How many checks to Landorus-I in offense ? Lati@s, Rotom-W, Celebi, Gengar and Gyarados (maybe I'm forgetting a few ones). As you can see it, they are almost all Rain checks which means that if you lose one of them, you're doomed by Keldeo maybe or something else. Also, Landorus doesn't really need U-Turn against an offensive team since, as you can see it, their checks are either 2HKO'd by HP Ice or by Focus Blast. U-Turn Landorus is definitely destined to be a Stallbreaker. If someone is running U-Turn over Rpolish there is a reason: his Team works well vs offenses and doesn't need RPolish to beat them.

But you're right about this point though: U-Turn Lando is not "extremely good" (it's still great...) against offensive teams. This Set is obviously not as scary as the RPolish Set (this set is the reason why Landorus should be suspected) but it just shows how versatile Landorus can be. It can basically do everything : Stallbreaker, Late Game Sweeper, Scarfer, Stealther Rocker, Physicall Sweeper... and all those sets are great.

 

[Patolegend!]

I don't think that Landorus is ban worthy - however to answer the original question of whether it could be a suspect or not, it most certainly is.

What I think makes it worthy of a suspect discussion is not just its Rock Polish set however; this, as mentioned has numerous counters and can be bypassed by other methods also already mentioned (momentum, priority, etc). Although you think this shouldn't be discussed Pocket, I DO believe that a major reason for its "suspect" status would be the fact that it CAN hit from both sides of the spectrum very effectively, and it can be difficult to ascertain which set it's running without losing one of your checks or counters (as per the much-mentioned Celebi U-turn example). This, in turn, either opens you up to a Rock Polish sweep, or to a Keldeo, Breloom, or other powerful sweeper sweep, as you've lost a crucial 'mon that would counter/check them both. This could be one of the reasons that the Tyranitar/Keldeo/Landorus cores is so effective - if tyranitar doesn't take out Keldeo's checks/counters, then Landorus will do so, or leave them severely weakened.

I think its this capacity as an effective Wallbreaker/Lure/Sweeper/Revenge killer that makes it so powerful, and not just one set. Predict the wrong set and it really can make a massive difference, a trait that doesn't really apply to any other mon in OU, now that Genesect has been banned.

In conclusion, I don't think we should discuss different "broken" sets, as there is only one "broken" set. Its the combination of this set with the other perfectly viable and VERY EFFECTIVE sets that make it so difficult to keep in check, and in turn might lead to it being worthy of the suspect status.

 

[alexwolf]

What if you send in Celebi to handle Landorus and get wrecked by Sludge Wave? You just lose your Rain check and a ground resistance. Sludge Wave is used over RPolish btw, so yah cool you aren't getting swept by the Rpolish Set but you just lose an important member of your team. I don't think that you bring more than 2 Rain resistances + Landorus checks, so you are getting destroyed by something else then (or even by Landorus itself since Celebi is used in defensive teams and they rarely pack something else than Celebi to counter Landorus (DU's Team vs gr8)).

Let's stop this people, it is getting kind of ridiculous. It's the same as Latios being a suspect and seeing people mention that not even Jirachi and Tyranitar can wall it because LO EQ 2HKOes. Every top-tier Pokemon has legitimate ways to get past its counters, this is not exclusive to Landorus. Landorus-T can get past every single one of its counters with Gravity, SubCM Jirachi can get past many of its counters with Grass Knot, and Keldeo can do the same with the appopriate Hidden Power. So instead of brainstorming and trying to bring to the light obscure and rarely seen moves that the suspect in question can use to get past its counters, let's focus on moves that see actual use, and on the set that is being blamed for being ban worthy.</p>

Btw Ojama, i don't agree that U-turn Sheer Force Landorus is great against offensive teams. Imo, it is just good, as usually half of the team outspeeds it and can OHKO it, one ohter Pokemon in the team carries priority that can dent it if not OHKO it, and some slower Pokemon can take a hit and OHKO back.

 

[ace combat]

We all agree that Landorus is being discussed as a potential suspect for its Rock Polish set, NOT because it has the capability of utilizing either Sheer Force or a physical set. If Sand Force set was any problem at all, we would have banned Landorus ages ago. A Landorus-I with 10 Atk would still be brought up as a potential suspect today, because the physical set has NO BEARING to the suspect status of Landorus. Avoid bringing up Landorus's ability to play both physical and special offense as an excuse to ban Landorus - such posts will be moderated in the future in order to have this discussion more focused and relevant.

In a similar vein, avoid bringing up Landorus's alternative special options such as Psychic and Sludge Wave, since these are suboptimal variants of the Rock Polish set, with larger pools of counters.

What makes a Pokemon "suspect-worthy," is the consistency in pulling off its best set, and the degree of strain this one set imposes onto the metagame. Deoxys-S was banned because it can consistently set up Dual Screens or hazards without fail; Excadrill was banned because its one SD set can rip teams apart with little support. Landorus is "suspect-worthy," because of the ease in setting up Rock Polish and sweep teams unhindered.

As I just alluded in my previous statement, I believe the only suspect-worthy Landorus set at hand is the Rock Polish set. The U-turn set or any other deviants of the Sheer Force set are inferior / non-broken sets of Landorus that frankly owes little significance to the discussion at hand. Landorus is scary, because it can find many opportunities to set up a Rock Polish to fix its modest Speed to destroy everything with its amazing special artillery. U-turn Landorus gives up on this crucial sweeping potential (the reason why it's possibly broken) to relegate Landorus into a lesser support Pokemon that facilitates sweep for other Special Sweepers, who shares the same counters as Landorus; Sheer Force Landorus with SR + U-turn takes even more of a utilitarian role in expense of its ability to sweep. An unboosted Landorus simply has too many checks available to be considered broken.

I think that Pocket does a great job at summing up the ideas well why Landorus is being looked at as a potential suspect, and we should avoid discussion about his other potential sets as they would not get him banned, as he is no longer a “suspect” Pokemon when he is not running Rock Polish, Earth Power, Focus Blast, and Hidden Power. Therefore the unpredictability argument is not a really valid one. We should look at his advantages as a Pokemon when he does run this set. He is a high power Pokemon that has few downfalls and can 2HKO most of the metagame without a boost to his special attack. More importantly this Pokemon has low opportunity cost, meaning that you are not sacrificing much my putting him on your team, and he needs little team support to start a sweep. He has the advantages of having a neutrality to Stealth Rocks, and an immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, while on the other hand, he really only needs Stealth Rocks to start his sweep. He has great synergy with Tyranitar who can Pursuit most of his counters.

However you do need to look at Landorus potential weaknesses. He is weak to both ice and water in a rain infested metagame. While his typing is great at blocking physical attacks, he has only moderate physical defense, and lower special defense. Landorus, before a boost, also has only average speed for a sweeper, and many of the Pokemon that outspeed him can OHKO him before he can get a speed boost, with the notable exception of Terrakion. The other thing that you need to look at is that Landorus is good at 2HKOing the metagame. That is not OHKOing the metagame and this becomes a problem for a Pokemon that does not boost his Special Attack. Notable pokemon that can serve as checks to Landorus once they have switched in include: Conkeldurr, Donphan, Gastrodon, Hippodown, Physically Defensive Jellicent, Mamoswine, Kingdra, Politoed, Espeon, Reuniclus, Scizor, Vaporeon, and Venusaur. (includes Stealth Rocks) This should be added to the list of counters which includes Special Defense Jellicent, Latias, Latios, Celebi, Blissey, Gengar, Starmie, Rotom-W, Keldeo and Gyarados. There is another category of Pokemon that Landorus can beat Landorus if Focus Blast misses include: Ferrothorn, and Kyurem-B.

In the end, I do not think that people are having a hard time checking Landorus, or countering Landorus, as according to the suspect test 5/10 top ten Pokemon can counter/check him. I think that it is Landorus’s low opportunity cost that is making him such a problem for people. He really is not a difficult pokemon to switch in due to his Electric and Ground immunity, you are not sacrificing much by putting him on your team, and he requires little support to function well. Overall, I do not think that Landorus is suspect material. Yes he is fast and hits hard, but too much of the metagame can beat him and his dedicated counters are not obsolete in the current OU metagame.

 

[Ojama]

Let's stop this people, it is getting kind of ridiculous. It's the same as Latios being a suspect and seeing people mention that not even Jirachi and Tyranitar can wall it because LO EQ 2HKOes. Every top-tier Pokemon has legitimate ways to get past its counters, this is not exclusive to Landorus. Landorus-T can get past every single one of its counters with Gravity, SubCM Jirachi can get past many of its counters with Grass Knot, and Keldeo can do the same with the appopriate Hidden Power. So instead of brainstorming and trying to bring to the light obscure and rarely seen moves that the suspect in question can use to get past its counters, let's focus on moves that see actual use, and on the set that is being blamed for being ban worthy.</p>

Btw Ojama, i don't agree that U-turn Sheer Force Landorus is great against offensive teams. Imo, it is just good, as usually half of the team outspeeds it and can OHKO it, one ohter Pokemon in the team carries priority that can dent it if not OHKO it, and some slower Pokemon can take a hit and OHKO back.

Pocket talked about Sludge Wave, I talked about it as well. No need to answer like you did.

Isn't what I just said except that you replaced "great" by "good" ? Good post indeed.

 

[alexwolf]

Pocket talked about Sludge Wave, I talked about it as well. No need to answer like you did.

Isn't what I just said except that you replaced "great" by "good" ? Good post indeed.

There was a need, because you made it seem as Sludge Wave is a great option on Landorus that deserves a lot of attention. Also Pocket answered to the mention of Sludge Wave to close the discussion about it and prevent the discussion from derailing to talking about never seen coverage moves (Sludge Wave is one of those). Talking about this move's pros any further doesn't really serve any purpose in this thread, and this is why i intervened.

Great and good are not the same, even though there can be confusion because those terms are very subjective. For me, perfect are the best Pokemon in OU, great are those behind them (mostly A rank Pokemon), and good is everything else except for really mediocre OU Pokemon such as Donphan and Metagross. For example, Amonoguss is a good special wall, Alakazam is a good special attacker, and Tornadus is a good hard hitter. So according to my interpratation of the words good and great, U-turn Landorus is just a good Pokemon against offensive teams and nothing more.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I think that Pocket does a great job at summing up the ideas well why Landorus is being looked at as a potential suspect, and we should avoid discussion about his other potential sets as they would not get him banned, as he is no longer a “suspect” Pokemon when he is not running Rock Polish, Earth Power, Focus Blast, and Hidden Power. Therefore the unpredictability argument is not a really valid one. We should look at his advantages as a Pokemon when he does run this set.

But the problem here is that you're working under the assumption that this is the only set considered to be broken. Now, if that's the case, then you're fine. But Pocket also acknowledged that this might not be the case, and so other sets that are potentially broken should still be brought up in this thread. Not only that, but also keep in mind that the more you restrict a Pokemon, the less broken it would seem. If we limit ourselves to just Earth Power / Focus Blast / HP Ice / Rock Polish, then of course we have plenty of counters. Gyarados, SpD Celebi, SpD Jellicent, Blissey, Chansey, CM Latias, Gastrodon, and even SubDisable Gengar can all escape a 2HKO from full health and threaten Landorus back.

If we have to limit ourselves, I think it'd be best to only limit ourselves to special Landorus. After all, no one was calling to suspect this thing until Sheer Force was released and the special sets became popular. However, we need to take into consideration that special Landorus is not one dimensional either. Sludge Wave was just an example that sprung to mind at the moment, but special Landorus does use more common options such as U-turn and Psychic over Rock Polish. In fact, about 59% of Landorus ran Sheer Force last month, but only 37% were using Rock Polish. Even if we assume that every RP Landorus was a special variant, that still leaves us with 22% of Landorus that are running Sheer Force with no Rock Polish. Those Landorus are a reality, and if special Landorus ends up being the broken factor, then we need to look at that in a realistic light.

All I'm saying right now is that we should not limit ourselves to the same exact 4 move set, because that sort of reasoning could have been used to invalidate a number of bans made in the past. The main outcry has been against special Landorus, so focus on that alone if you must, but leave room for other common variations of that set.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

If we have to limit ourselves, I think it'd be best to only limit ourselves to special Landorus. After all, no one was calling to suspect this thing until Sheer Force was released and the special sets became popular. However, we need to take into consideration that special Landorus is not one dimensional either. Sludge Wave was just an example that sprung to mind at the moment, but special Landorus does use more common options such as U-turn and Psychic over Rock Polish. In fact, about 59% of Landorus ran Sheer Force last month, but only 37% were using Rock Polish. Even if we assume that every RP Landorus was a special variant, that still leaves us with 22% of Landorus that are running Sheer Force with no Rock Polish. Those Landorus are a reality, and if special Landorus ends up being the broken factor, then we need to look at that in a realistic light.

All I'm saying right now is that we should not limit ourselves to the same exact 4 move set, because that sort of reasoning could have been used to invalidate a number of bans made in the past. The main outcry has been against special Landorus, so focus on that alone if you must, but leave room for other common variations of that set.

Yes, but on my opinion if that particular combination of 4 moves on a Pokémon is broken (if it makes a pokémon really hard to deal with) then there is no reason why it shouldn't be banned, even though the Pokémon in question has a lot of sets that aren't broken, or that this set can be made unbroken if we change a move.

However, just the fact that this set is broken, make the other sets potentially broken. Think about that: while U-Turn Landorus cannot sweep teams effectively, it carries the surprise factor that makes it even harder to deal with if paired with other Pokémon that can take advantage of this surprise factor. For example, Landorus can use U-Turn to get rid of Celebi, and then your opponent will be hard-pressed to find another way to tank that Specs Keldeo's attacks, if it rely on Celebi to do that.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Oh certainly, if that combination of moves alone is considered broken, then that should be enough to warrant a suspect test or even a ban. However, there's always the possibility that one particular set of moves might not be broken, but we might instead decide that having to deal with all of the different variants of special Landorus makes it too hard to keep in check and ultimately breaks it. I'm not saying that this is definitely the case right now, but we have to keep an open mind to that possibility.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Oh certainly, if that combination of moves alone is considered broken, then that should be enough to warrant a suspect test or even a ban. However, there's always the possibility that one particular set of moves might not be broken, but we might instead decide that having to deal with all of the different variants of special Landorus makes it too hard to keep in check and ultimately breaks it. I'm not saying that this is definitely the case right now, but we have to keep an open mind to that possibility.

Yes, that's something that should be considered. Landorus as a whole has no counters just because of that. While it's fine that the RP Sheer Force set can be countered by Pokémon like Celebi and Latias... What about if they carry U-Turn? That's something that should definitively be considered.

Also just like when Genesect was unbanned, Heatran could "counter" it but it was too easy to just pair it with Dugtrio and then have fun, Landorus can simply be paired with Tyranitar and then you can easily get rid of Latias and Celebi and then sweep. "Celebi has Baton Pass!" Baton Pass is an opportunity cost if you plan to run things like Perish Song, and it does not help against U-Turn and Sludge Wave, as well as the physical sets. I think that this is yet another thing that should be considered; how easy is to get rid of Landorus' counters and checks.

I am sorry for bringing up Genesect, an threat that was banned and no longer belong to OU; but I find no other way to explain what I mean to say.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Landorus is not suspect


3 Things that make Landorus not suspect

PRIORITY

Although mentioned several times already, I cannot stress this enough.

Priority from the likes of Mamoswine, Dragonite, Scizor will do Landorus in and he will be out for the count.

ROCK POLISH
Landorus can't function without it. Thats why I think Sandorus never really caught on. He needed the power boost to break through Skarm, who took crap damage from HP Ice. But he couldn't swap any move for the speed booster. Each move provided impeccable coverage. without HP Ice, Virizion and Breloom laugh and cry with joy.
The special set needs the speed boost especially since they generally run Modest for power. But until the speed boost comes along, Landorus will be slow.

Average defenses
Landorus has piss poor bulk, and also has a 4x weakness. As long as he hasn't boosted his speed, abuse his piss poor bulk by sending in a strong sweeper with an easy OHKO move like Keldeo with Surf/Hydro Pump.


How I look at Landorus is a pokemon that trades some speed for a big power increase. That speed is an issue, as the 105+s have an easy time with him (unless boosted).



Besides I hear no one complaining about Rock Polish Terrakion or the Sheer Force physical sets (those are the scary ones).

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Landorus is not suspect


3 Things that make Landorus not suspect

PRIORITY

Although mentioned several times already, I cannot stress this enough.

Priority from the likes of Mamoswine, Dragonite, Scizor will do Landorus in and he will be out for the count.

1. Someone with the neurons functioning would never try to sweep with Landorus if Mamoswine was alive
2. Scizor cannot OHKO with Bullet Punch, and in turn, it has a huge chance to be OHKOed by Earth Power.
3. The same with Dragonite (Landorus is not OHKOed by Extremespeed), except that it is only OHKOed by Hidden Power Ice after its Multiscale has been broken.

Oh, and unlike most sweepers, Landorus does not have to worry about priority shortening its sweep because it does not receive recoil from Life Orb.

ROCK POLISH
Landorus can't function without it. Thats why I think Sandorus never really caught on. He needed the power boost to break through Skarm, who took crap damage from HP Ice. But he couldn't swap any move for the speed booster. Each move provided impeccable coverage. without HP Ice, Virizion and Breloom laugh and cry with joy.
The special set needs the speed boost especially since they generally run Modest for power. But until the speed boost comes along, Landorus will be slow.

Landorus can, in fact, function without Rock Polish. It will just be unable to sweep entire teams (unless you kill all Pokémon faster than him or provide paralysis support). While it's true that it's the Rock Polish set that is almost uncounterable and uncheckable, other sets carry the surprise factor, because your opponent will hardly expect Landorus to U-Turn on Celebi's face.

Average defenses
Landorus has piss poor bulk, and also has a 4x weakness. As long as he hasn't boosted his speed, abuse his piss poor bulk by sending in a strong sweeper with an easy OHKO move like Keldeo with Surf/Hydro Pump.

Landorus is not as frail as you make it seem like it is. Landorus is actually quite bulky (for an offensive Pokémon) and can whithstand many resisted hits. It has good defense, which is a big factor on surviving the aforementioned priority moves.

Besides I hear no one complaining about Rock Polish Terrakion or the Sheer Force physical sets (those are the scary ones).

Terrakion is not as strong as Sheer Force Landorus. It also carry too many common weakness, such as weakness to Bullet Punch and Mach Punch. Also, even with the speed boost, it's far easier for something like Keldeo to survive a blow from Terrakion even after Stealth Rock damage (something not possible with Landorus; you have to keep him alive at 100% health if you want to use Keldeo to defeat Landorus). This excessive number of weakness prevent Terrakion from setting up as effectively as Landorus, and the fact that both Breloom and Scizor are more present on the teams than Mamoswine means that Terrakion has a harder time trying to setup AND trying to mantain its sweep. Two other factors should be considered: Landorus has Sheer Force and its main moves have secondary effects; which means that Landorus does not have to worry about Life Orb recoil unless it have to resort to Hidden Power Ice. Landorus is also immune to Spikes. Terrakion does not have these features; this means that it is far easier to wear down, and in fact, by wearing it down, Terrakion will probably only have time to take a limited amount of threats before dying. Oh, and did I mention that Landorus is immune to Thunder Wave and Toxic Spikes?

Oh, and what you mean about Sheer Force physical sets? As far as I know, physical sets make use of the Sand Force ability. It's a shame that Landorus does not get good physical moves with secondary ability...

 

[Schpoonman]

While it's fine that the RP Sheer Force set can be countered by Pokémon like Celebi and Latias... What about if they carry U-Turn? That's something that should definitively be considered.

And that's where the argument falls apart. If Landorus does not carry Rock Polish, then the discussed set does not exist in that battle and is therefore not a problem. Landorus-Incarnate is NOT suspect material.

Exhibit A: Mamoswine, THE anti-metagame Pokémon

1. Someone with the neurons functioning would never try to sweep with Landorus if Mamoswine was alive

And while you still have a Mamoswine the rest of your team is handling the rest of your opponent's team. Everything goes both ways and it's getting old watching posters twist words.

Exhibit B: Latias and Celebi

Yes, Tyranitar and Pursuit Trapping exist, but so does THINKING. Blindly throwing out your lone Rock Polish Landorus counter just to be KO'd every time you feel like he's going to try to sweep is NOT indicative of good playing, and is not indicative of a "broken" Pokémon. I can sweep you with Shell Smash Omastar if you let four of your Pokémon get KO'd before bringing out Ferrothorn, but that just means you don't know what the hell you're doing, not that Omastar is broken. If they get KO'd by a Scarfed U-turn, then Landorus wasn't the problem in the first place, the Keldeo that just Specs Hydro Pumped your entire team was.

Your Genesect comparison is flawed in the fact that Pursuit Trapping is not nearly as guaranteed as GeneTrio was. Unless Tyranitar is Scarfed, he is outsped by Latias and Celebi who both commonly carry moves that seriously hurt Tyranitar (Leaf Storm, Earth Power, Surf), potentially KOing him. Dugtrio naturally outsped Heatran and had a STABed 4X effective attack which Heatran had absolutely no chance to escape.

Assuming your team carries none of these Pokémon, Landorus can't just switch in on something like +2 Scizor. Landorus is limited just like every other sweeper to setup opportunities, which are growing more and more sporadic in the fifth generation.

EDIT:

Also, even with the speed boost, it's far easier for something like Keldeo to survive a blow from Terrakion even after Stealth Rock damage (something not possible with Landorus; you have to keep him alive at 100% health if you want to use Keldeo to defeat Landorus).

252Atk Life Orb Terrakion (Neutral) Close Combat vs 4HP/0Def Keldeo (Neutral): 85% - 100% (276 - 327 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 5% chance to OHKO.
252SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus (+SAtk) Earth Power vs 4HP/0SpDef Keldeo (Neutral): 84% - 99% (274 - 322 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

I'm sorry, what were you saying? This happened with the anti-weather poll thread and it's disheartening to see it happen again. Before you post: Run your numbers. Check your facts. Stop making broad claims to turn the conversation in your favor.

 

[Conflict]

Yo, how about we stop banning the 'next best thing' one after another and instead try to unban some stuff??? You can literally make a case for half of OU being broken if you paint them in the right light and provide some 'facts' (dmg calcs.....).
Shouldnt we try to ban the least amount of Pokemon possible as long as it allows for a 'balanced' metagame?
Seriously weve only banned stuff in BW2 so far id like to see some retests before we go and ban even more - just accept that BW is different to the earlier gens and the old ways of thinking dont work anymore.

@Lando-I: Ive had never really problems with it. If i got swept by it it was due to me misplaying earlier in the match and letting my checks get weakened and then even allowing Lando-I to setup without severely hurting it in the process. Not broken.

 

[Honus]

Landorus is not suspect


3 Things that make Landorus not suspect

PRIORITY

Although mentioned several times already, I cannot stress this enough.

Priority from the likes of Mamoswine, Dragonite, Scizor will do Landorus in and he will be out for the count.

ROCK POLISH
Landorus can't function without it. Thats why I think Sandorus never really caught on. He needed the power boost to break through Skarm, who took crap damage from HP Ice. But he couldn't swap any move for the speed booster. Each move provided impeccable coverage. without HP Ice, Virizion and Breloom laugh and cry with joy.
The special set needs the speed boost especially since they generally run Modest for power. But until the speed boost comes along, Landorus will be slow.

Average defenses
Landorus has piss poor bulk, and also has a 4x weakness. As long as he hasn't boosted his speed, abuse his piss poor bulk by sending in a strong sweeper with an easy OHKO move like Keldeo with Surf/Hydro Pump.

How I look at Landorus is a pokemon that trades some speed for a big power increase. That speed is an issue, as the 105+s have an easy time with him (unless boosted).



Besides I hear no one complaining about Rock Polish Terrakion or the Sheer Force physical sets (those are the scary ones).

It can't function without Rock Polish? Are you kidding? It definitely doesn't need modest, I still 2hko most of the metagame and do around 80-90% to Skarmory with Timid, sure I'd like a boost but Landorus hits just fine with Timid. Back to the rock polish part; it doesn't need rock polish to function at all. Most members of a defensive team are pretty slow and it outspeeds them regardless [save like Starmie and Latias]. Landorus certainly doesn't need to be the main sweeper either. Landorus can lure in Celebi and Latias, two counters it shares with Keldeo, U-Turn into a CB Tyranitar and open up a sweep for itself as well as its partner Keldeo once they're dead. In all honesty though it doesn't even need a partner, as long as its specific counters are taken out [which is literally like 2 clicks between U-Turn and CB Tar pursuit] then Landorus just sweeps by itself. Skarmory's a huge liability and free switch now because Landorus does like 80-90% with Focus Blast. Probably not a lot of priority on stall/balance either :/

Shouldnt we try to ban the least amount of Pokemon possible as long as it allows for a 'balanced' metagame?

Well the way I see a balanced meta is that any playstyle - offensive or defensive has a fair field and right now that's just not the way BW2 seems to me, especially with Landorus. I'd like some other stuff fine but I think it'd be fine if we stopped the bans after Lando since he really outclasses the others in his ability to destroy defensive playstyles since it's done with so little thinking or support between U-Turn and CB TTar.

Seriously weve only banned stuff in BW2 so far id like to see some retests before we go and ban even more - just accept that BW is different to the earlier gens and the old ways of thinking dont work anymore.

My old way of thinking comes from BW1 which was completely fine, you had powerful offensive threats like Terrakion that could break stall as well as strong stall teams like IR that could take on the metagame. However, pokemon like Terrakion required some actual thinking and support, like luring or battering down a Gliscor, not just 2 mindless clicks and an easy sweep.


im turning into lavos .-.

 

[Pikachuu]

So I made a team with Rock Polish Landorus and Choice Band Tyranitar. I found it really hard to find a good opportunity to set up a Rock Polish since most of the time my opponent still had something to revenge kill it if I rock polished. Also I think Timid might be better than Modest because the speed is really useful when you're not setting up and you don't lose to things like Jolly Haxorus, Jirachi, Kyurem etc. I know they probably wouldn't stay in anyway but trust me you'd be surprised how a lot of the time they let their Pokemon like that in on Landorus so it's not safe to stay in with Modest Landorus. Also I found that by the time Landorus counters are gone it's either you probably won't get a chance to Rock Polish or there isn't any point anymore. Not ban worthy imo. All you have to do is not lose your check/counter to it until it's dead or when you know something faster can take it down before it sets up. Also Priority and Stealth Rock damage wear it down really quickly. Thinking about it I think I'd much rather have Terrakion instead of Landorus. More speed, better STAB's, +1 Special Defense in sand, Swords Dance and Rock Polish. Special Landorus is really not as good as people are making it out to be. It is really easy to sweep noobs with it though.

 

[youngjake93]

Landorus is not broken, it is just very powerful. I think it is similar to Venusaur in how you can change the moveset slightly to not have any real counters, you outspeed almost everything, and you hit like a truck.
However, they both get worn down setting up/executing the sweep, are weak to Ice Shard(resist Mach Punch, but ESpeed can do work), and rely on partners and a turn of setup to sweep effectively.
Finally, all it takes to GUARANTEE an end to the sweep is sacking something and revenging with something that can take a hit. There are sweepers such as MoxieDDMence that do not give you this luxury.

However, its stall-breaking potential is through the roof. Any special wall that doesn't at least resist Earth Power or is named Blissey will face a lot of trouble against a mon without boosts, life orb damage and ability to switch moves. I don't think this is enough to deem it broken in this metagame though because things such as Kyurem-B can completely derail stall and aren't even close to being suspect.

More than a 50% chance to 2HKO Chansey with a non-STAB, unboosted attack without even using Specs and Chansey doesn't get leftovers to come back from that without a safe Softboil. It has to rely on Focus Blast missing.

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 286-338 (40.62 - 48.01%) -- 64.45% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So basically, dealing with Landorus is a lot like dealing with Venusaur on a weatherless team, unless you add in the ability to stallbreak without a boost. I don't think anyone deems stallbreaking without a boost is broken in this metagame, so I don't think Landorus is broken.

 

[BKC]

Yo, how about we stop banning the 'next best thing' one after another and instead try to unban some stuff?

the metagame is a total clusterfuck of broken pokemon as it is. the last thing we need is to add some more.

Shouldnt we try to ban the least amount of Pokemon possible as long as it allows for a 'balanced' metagame?

a small banlist does not have priority over a competitive metagame. they're not mutually exclusive of course but right now our metagame is far from competitive and unbanning shit would just make it worse.

Ive had never really problems with it. If i got swept by it it was due to me misplaying earlier in the match and letting my checks get weakened and then even allowing Lando-I to setup without severely hurting it in the process. Not broken.

well i guess that settles it

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Landorus is not broken, it is just very powerful. I think it is similar to Venusaur in how you can change the moveset slightly to not have any real counters, you outspeed almost everything, and you hit like a truck.
However, they both get worn down setting up/executing the sweep, are weak to Ice Shard(resist Mach Punch, but ESpeed can do work), and rely on partners and a turn of setup to sweep effectively.
Finally, all it takes to GUARANTEE an end to the sweep is sacking something and revenging with something that can take a hit. There are sweepers such as MoxieDDMence that do not give you this luxury.

However, its stall-breaking potential is through the roof. Any special wall that doesn't at least resist Earth Power or is named Blissey will face a lot of trouble against a mon without boosts, life orb damage and ability to switch moves. I don't think this is enough to deem it broken in this metagame though because things such as Kyurem-B can completely derail stall and aren't even close to being suspect.

More than a 50% chance to 2HKO Chansey with a non-STAB, unboosted attack without even using Specs and Chansey doesn't get leftovers to come back from that without a safe Softboil. It has to rely on Focus Blast missing.

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 286-338 (40.62 - 48.01%) -- 64.45% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So basically, dealing with Landorus is a lot like dealing with Venusaur on a weatherless team, unless you add in the ability to stallbreak without a boost. I don't think anyone deems stallbreaking without a boost is broken in this metagame, so I don't think Landorus is broken.

And that's the difference between Venusaur and Landorus: while the former depends from sun, the latter is completely weather-independent, not even having to be used on weatherless teams. It only needs a Rock Polish boost, a setup opportunity is not as hard to get as all of you may say.

About the aforementioned Kyurem-B and Terrakion; People here tend to compare Landorus with other powerful Pokémon like Kyurem-B, Terrakion, and Keldeo, forgetting that Landorus has a way to boost its speed (unlike Kyurem-B and Keldeo) and of its unique characteristics that it does not share with the aforementioned powerhouses: Neutrality to Stealth Rock, immunity to Spikes, and even something that it only really shares with Nidoking (speaking of viable pokémon on OU): It does not receive recoil from Life Orb (unless it needs to use Hidden Power Ice). All that mean that Landorus is not only harder to check, but that it is harder to worn down. I bet that if Kyurem-B had acess to Rock Polish or Agility, everyone would bring it as a suspect.

 

[LilOu]

There are people that keep saying that Landorus has no real counters because almost all pokes that can take 2 hits are Pursuit bait for Tyranitar. If we check the definition of "counter":

"A Pokemon that can switch into any move and force the out the opposing Pokemon by threatening to KO it. (Either by extended stalling or outright attacking) There are various degrees described as shaky to hard depending on the number of times the Pokemon can do so and its reliability." Taken from Unofficial Glosary.

"A defensive Pokemon capable of being tailored to switch in and counter a variety of different threats, but not all at once. Primarily added to a team to counter a specific threat while also dealing with miscellaneous other threats." Taken from The Pokemon Dictionary.

Both definitions are clear in something: A Pokemon that can switch into a certain threat and is able to deal with him either by stalling it or attacking. There is 0 mention about partners. This may sound repetitive, but saying that Celebi is not a counter to Landorus because it is trapped by Tyranitar is the same as saying that Skarmory is not a counter for Scizor because it is trapped and KO'ed by Magnezone. When we talk about counters, we ony talk about the so called "counter" and the attacking pokemon.

Searching in Smogon I found this:

Check and Counters (for Scizor): "...The same applies to the allergic-to-electricity Skarmory, who takes all of Scizor's moves well and can set up hazards or Whirlwind Scizor out should it gain a boost."

While it is true that Tyranitar is a really great partner for Landorus-I and Magnezone for Scizor, the trapping capabilities of both do not have any influence on the countering capabilities of Celebi and Skarmory.

Therefore, Celebi IS a counter to RP Landorus.

Calcs

252SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 252HP/236SpDef Leftovers Celebi (+SpDef): 35% - 43% (144 - 174 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

 

[Conflict]

the metagame is a total clusterfuck of broken pokemon as it is. the last thing we need is to add some more.

Thats your opinion. I think the BW Mons arent that broken because how else could i use the same fucking team for 2 years and still get good results (i.e. winning with that old old team in OST#9).
Also seeing as ive been an avid Ubersplayer in the past i think broken threats can balance other broken threats and therefore create an somehow balanced and cool metagame where you have a bunch of top Mons and a few lesser viable ones but you can even rely on some odd lower-tier Mons to counter/check certain top threats (see: DPP Ubers).

a small banlist does not have priority over a competitive metagame. they're not mutually exclusive of course but right now our metagame is far from competitive and unbanning shit would just make it worse.

BW2 will NEVER be totally belanced like for example DPP OU because there are roughly ~600 different Mons available for OU play with multiple (viable) abilities (therefore increasing that Pool even further) and it is just impossible to keep every single possibility that emerges from that in check with only 6 Mons in theory. Still there are still some teams that can handle most of the viable stuff and therefore my conclusion is that we dont have to ban anything.

I also was against most of the bans smogon conducted (Excadrill, Deo-D, Thund-I, Torn-T -> just to name a few) and i stronly believe that we should retest past suspects voted Uber to see how the metagame would unfold with them allowed. Back when Dreamworld-Metagame was a thing most of the 'banned suspects' were allowed back into DW-OU and performed just fine but werent necessarily overpowered.
For example we could unban Excadrill based on the fact that Breloom got Technician and we now have Lando-T as an additional check. Thund-I deserves a retest because we are allowing Thund-T which has an arguably better ability (cmon Prankster Nasty Plot isnt op....) and can sweep as well as Thund-T with Agility (+NP). Etc. pp.

I dont believe Lando-I is that broken because it cant really sweep teams early game so it has to come out late and find an opportunity to set up. It also needs certain Mons it cant ohko weakened so it can sweep and not get phazed/statusd/weakened. This reminds me of SD-Lucario in DPP: A really strong sweeper that needs some dmg done early game vs key-Mons to sweep and works best with TTar-Support.
And still it has some Counters it cant overcome some counters (Lucario: Gyarados, Gliscor; Lando-I: Gyarados, Zapdos, ~Celebi, ~Amoongus) without running supoptimal moves. Therefore Lando-I is not broken but maybe just the best sweeper available.....

 

[peng]

Although the definition of "counter" doesn't mention teammates, you'd be naive to say that Latias and non-BP Celebi are good answers to Landorus in practice. They both lose to U-Turn Landorus or Lando w/ Tyranitar. Baton Pass Celebi is the only Pokemon that can consistently switch-in on Landorus-I when paired with Tyranitar, and even then it loses to the increasingly common U-turn variants.

This next bit is in response to this argument everyone pro-OU seems to be throwing around: Who cares if U-turn sets don't have the speed to sweep? Its role with U-Turn is clearly to bait in its only 2 switch-ins and sufficiently weaken them for something else with the same counters to sweep (Keldeo??). Are you all also trying to say that Genesect wasn't broken because it couldn't run Rock Polish and revenge-kill faster threats with the same set? Just because a Pokemon has multiple sets that are all excellent, but no 1 set that beats everything doesn't mean its not broken - if a Pokemon needs to beat absolutely everything with a single set to be outright broken then we'd be looking at bringing quite a few of our current Ubers down.

Also the priority argument is pretty bad. Being 4x Ice Weak doesn't mean that a team with Mamoswine automatically doesn't lose to Landorus. First you have to get Mamoswine in, which will probably mean sacrificing something to an Earth Power / Focus Blast, unless you have Latias or Celebi (see above!). Then you have to completely bank on the fact that your opponent doesn't have anything more than Stealth Rock on the field, otherwise you can't come in consistently and Landorus outlasts you. You also run the risk of being outlasted by running Life Orb alone, as you'll be taking 12.5% from Stealth Rock + 10% from Life Orb every time you try to come in and Ice Shard, whilst Landorus isn't taking that Life Orb recoil. So basically, if you want to be able to consistently beat Landorus-I with Mamoswine you need to not be running Life Orb, have a very reliable spinner to keep Spikes off, or read your opponent every time you bring Mamoswine in and catch their Ice Shard switch-in with an Earthquake, Superpower, or double switch. Mamoswine would have the upper hand here against pretty much every other 4x Ice-weak sweeper due to their likely SR weakness and Life Orb recoil, but Landorus' inability to be worn down means its not actually that favourable a situation for you.

The other argument I don't get is that Landorus-I is too frail to consistently sweep, which I don't really understand. It has the bulk to survive non-boosted Scalds from almost any bulky water commonly used in OU, meaning it can actually use the likes of weakened Jellicent as set-up fodder. This combined with taking no Life Orb recoil on 2/3 of its attacks mean that its actually not unrealistic for Landorus to set-up RP on a weak Jellicent, survive with around 15% (factoring in SR) and still go on to sweep. No other Pokemon in OU (or likely in the history of the game) has the ability to tank a STAB attack it is weak to, be left at that low HP and still go on to sweep with 1.7x boosted attacks. Out of interest, how bulky does such a Pokemon need to be for some of you to consider it broken?

 

[alexwolf]

Although the definition of "counter" doesn't mention teammates, you'd be naive to say that Latias and non-BP Celebi are good answers to Landorus in practice. They both lose to U-Turn Landorus or Lando w/ Tyranitar. Baton Pass Celebi is the only Pokemon that can consistently switch-in on Landorus-I when paired with Tyranitar, and even then it loses to the increasingly common U-turn variants.

This next bit is in response to this argument everyone pro-OU seems to be throwing around: Who cares if U-turn sets don't have the speed to sweep? Its role with U-Turn is clearly to bait in its only 2 switch-ins and sufficiently weaken them for something else with the same counters to sweep (Keldeo??). Are you all also trying to say that Genesect wasn't broken because it couldn't run Rock Polish and revenge-kill faster threats with the same set? Just because a Pokemon has multiple sets that are all excellent, but no 1 set that beats everything doesn't mean its not broken - if a Pokemon needs to beat absolutely everything with a single set to be outright broken then we'd be looking at bringing quite a few of our current Ubers down.

Also the priority argument is pretty bad. Being 4x Ice Weak doesn't mean that a team with Mamoswine automatically doesn't lose to Landorus. First you have to get Mamoswine in, which will probably mean sacrificing something to an Earth Power / Focus Blast, unless you have Latias or Celebi (see above!). Then you have to completely bank on the fact that your opponent doesn't have anything more than Stealth Rock on the field, otherwise you can't come in consistently and Landorus outlasts you. You also run the risk of being outlasted by running Life Orb alone, as you'll be taking 12.5% from Stealth Rock + 10% from Life Orb every time you try to come in and Ice Shard, whilst Landorus isn't taking that Life Orb recoil. So basically, if you want to be able to consistently beat Landorus-I with Mamoswine you need to not be running Life Orb, have a very reliable spinner to keep Spikes off, or read your opponent every time you bring Mamoswine in and catch their Ice Shard switch-in with an Earthquake, Superpower, or double switch. Mamoswine would have the upper hand here against pretty much every other 4x Ice-weak sweeper due to their likely SR weakness and Life Orb recoil, but Landorus' inability to be worn down means its not actually that favourable a situation for you.

The other argument I don't get is that Landorus-I is too frail to consistently sweep, which I don't really understand. It has the bulk to survive non-boosted Scalds from almost any bulky water commonly used in OU, meaning it can actually use the likes of weakened Jellicent as set-up fodder. This combined with taking no Life Orb recoil on 2/3 of its attacks mean that its actually not unrealistic for Landorus to set-up RP on a weak Jellicent, survive with around 15% (factoring in SR) and still go on to sweep. No other Pokemon in OU (or likely in the history of the game) has the ability to tank a STAB attack it is weak to, be left at that low HP and still go on to sweep with 1.7x boosted attacks. Out of interest, how bulky does such a Pokemon need to be for some of you to consider it broken?

Latias and Celebi are not the only counters to RP Landorus in OU. As it happens every time that a Pokemon is suspected, many people that want to ban Landorus are exaggerating and making Landorus to be much harder to beat than it actually is.

As already mentioned, offensive teams not named sun offense don't have huge troubles with Rock Polish Landorus and have even less problems with U-turn Landorus. Even though Landorus can sweep late game with a Rock Polish, it is very hard to get that opportunity, and even if it does, the opponent's priority user will be ready to pick Landorus off (after taking even a resisted hit to setup, Landorus will be in KO range of every common priority user except Breloom). And no, priority users are not that easy to eliminate, especially if your opponent knows that they are their only way to check Landorus after it sets up. You can use other Pokemon to lure them out, but every good sweeper can sweep when its counters and checks are lured and eliminated.

As for balanced and stall teams, U-turn Landorus can still be handled by many viable Pokemon or defensive combos (not talking about RP Landorus because any solid stall team shouldn't have trouble against it, as Baton Pass Celebi is one of the most common members of such teams and shits all over RP Lando + Pursuit user). Zapdos, SpD Bronzong, and RestTalk Gyarados all counter U-turn Landorus, and even offensive Gyrados is a good check. And those Pokemon can check both variants of special Landorus. SpD Amoonguss is also one of the best checks to any special Landorus variant. While it can't take two Earth Powers, it can easily come into anything else and put it to sleep, paralyze it, or dent it with HP Ice. Even if it does come into Earth Power it can act as a pivot to bring one of your other checks to Landorus, without losing a lot of health due to Regenerator, making Landorus pretty manageable. For example the duo of Rotom-W + Amonguss can handle perfectly any special Landorus set, while not being a specialized duo at all, as it takes care of many other therats as well, as is generally a potent defensive core for balanced sand teams. Defensive teams definitely have the tools to deal with U-turn Landorus, but they haven't had their time to adapt, as U-turn Landorus is a newly discovered trend and everyone is hyping it to be the next Jesus. How can you judge if stall teams can deal with U-turn landorus in only a couple of weeks? Most stall teams i make are more troubled about mixed Kyurem-B or SD + Rock Gem Terrakion than U-turn special Landorus, and those Pokemon are just fine in OU, so i don't see why everyone is hyping this set to be the ultimate wallbreaker.