Landorus-I Discussion: Evaluating a Potential Suspect

[ginganinja]

You see a Landorus on 7.5% of teams at best. It's hardly wrapping the metagame around itself. Sure, you have to have an answer for it, but it's hardly as if effective answers to Landorus are dead weight.

Go look at the suspect stats please (ie the stats WORTH talking about) and you will find Landorus far more common than you think. Even then, the actual stats for landorus are slightly affected due to Landorus-T also being used a fair amount in OU, which impacts on the stats a tiny bit due to species clause. Regardless, the entire usage argument isn't even relevant to the discussion at hand, since usage has little indicator as to what we suspect so I have no idea what you are trying to get at.

 

[Zephir]

Why are you using Superpower and U-turn in the Sand Force set ? Just go for HP Ice and Swords Dance and you have a monster against slow teams once you set up a SD - OHKO on SpDef Celebi in sandstorm, on RotomW regardless of the weather, on LandoT and Gliscor, on Forretress with sandstorm + SR, 80% min to Max def Hippowdon or standard Ferro, and easy 2HKO on Skarm under SS, OHKO with SR at +4.
Anyway that's two completely different sets, put Uturn over Rock Polish as Bri said and your comparison gains more sense.

On the topic, I think gr8stard post pretty much sum up all. Once the Pokeball thing is fixed, I don't think Lando I can be ban under the unpredictability argument. The two special set's variations are extremely useful / threatening but neither is outright broken. With Rock polish it can be countered, and with Uturn it is easier to RK. Offense must absolutely watch for the first but have ways to beat it : not giving it free turns, have faster mons and a one time check to a +2 Lando, run powerful priorities. Defensive teams have difficulties to counter (or even check) the Uturn set while being optimal in other matchups but I changed my mind and I don't think that makes him ban-worthy. Sure it restricts team building -among others, but i'm not convinced that baning him would bring much more diversity in the playstyle, and this would be priviledge a playstyle. Finally, its bulk and durability is good for such a powerful pokemon but not enough to switch in whenever it wants.

While I don't think it would fit in a great metagame because it's a little too powerful and can provides easy win conditions when paired with things like Tyranitar or EBelt Keldeo, i believe Smogon wants to ban broken mons rather than unhealthy mons. Anyway, the only thing that can significantly make the metagame better (or worse) at this point is probably the ban of weathers.

 

[LilOu]

Even though I don't use Landorus-I very much, I don't think that it is as OP as other recent suspects like Genesect or Tornadus-T. It is really good, I must admit, but it has some flaws that makes it manageable. From my experience with Landorus, there are two things that really cripple it...momentum and priority. I'm not going to talk about its counters because we already know them.

If you have an offensive team that lacks something like a Specially Defensive Celebi or RestTalk Gyarados (which are not very common on offensive teams), your best weapon is the momentum. That is what I was trying to do with my team (Breloom, Tyranitar, Keldeo, Jirachi, Hydreigon and Landorus-T). My first step is to analyze my opponent's team to make a game plan, and, once I see a Landorus-I, my first is to decide my lead. Usually it is Keldeo, because if I lead with any other Pokémon and he leads with Lando, I have a really huge disadvantage.

Imagine that my opponent has a Celebi, if I lead off with Keldeo and my opp leads off with Lando, there is no reason for him to stay (if he is intelligent enough to know that his lando is a huge thread), so the best switch would be Celebi. I predict this and switch to Tyranitar to get rid of that pixie that stops my keldeo sweep. This is the most difficult part, if I use Pursuit I can kill Celebi but then Lando sets RP and gg. But, here I must go for the safest thing: Crunch. Now, if the Celebi U-turns while I crunch, the mind games start. My opp forces me to switch out T-tar with an appropriate counter and then the road is free for Landorus. Even without setting up RP, it was able to come in, fire off an Earth Power and then switch out, never, and I repeat, NEVER lose the momentum.

If you have priority, it is much easier. Just be aware that you must set up rocks and then play normally...Lando will be too scared to use Rock Polish knowing that you have a Scizor or a Mamoswine, even Banded Dragonite can OHKO it with some prior damage before. Some calcs to prove this:

Hide

• 252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Landorus: 55.49% - 65.2%
  2 hits to KO
• 252 Atk Choice Band Dragonite (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 0 HP/0 Def Landorus: 50.16% - 59.25%
  2 hits to KO
• 252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs 0 HP/0 Def Landorus: 116.61% - 139.18%
  Guaranteed OHKO

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Imagine that my opponent has a Celebi, if I lead off with Keldeo and my opp leads off with Lando, there is no reason for him to stay (if he is intelligent enough to know that his lando is a huge thread), so the best switch would be Celebi. I predict this and switch to Tyranitar to get rid of that pixie that stops my keldeo sweep. This is the most difficult part, if I use Pursuit I can kill Celebi but then Lando sets RP and gg. But, here I must go for the safest thing: Crunch. Now, if the Celebi U-turns while I crunch, the mind games start. My opp forces me to switch out T-tar with an appropriate counter and then the road is free for Landorus. Even without setting up RP, it was able to come in, fire off an Earth Power and then switch out, never, and I repeat, NEVER lose the momentum.

This is something that is very scary. When a team rely on denying momentum to deal with some top threat, something is wrong there. I've just battled with a guy and I did exactly the same thing as you, except that it was a Latias, not a Celebi, that I faced. Still, it is very tempting to Pursuit Latias/Celebi, at least Pokémon like Lucario or Terrakion are easier to stop when they setup, but Landorus, like said above, is able to sweep just with Rock Polish.

About the priority question; Landorus-I resists Mach Punch, and it's not like anyone with a functioning brain would try to sweep with Landorus if Mamoswine or Weavile were alive. As for Bullet Punch, Landorus-I easily takes one Bullet Punch. After Stealth Rock damage, 252/0 Scizor has an extremely huge chance to be OHKOed by Earth Power (which is yet another testament to how powerful this thing is). Thankfully, Landorus-I does not have to worry about Life Orb recoil, unless it has to use Hidden Power Ice.

 

[The Grand Babido]

i think you have misconstrued what i was meaning to say yee or maybe i didn't word it as i intended to. for what its worth, i actually agree with you and bkc on a lot of issues...

it is worth noting that you made a fairly controversial post in the past where you said that currently there was one best team in the metagame. you then went on to post your own sand team along with a couple of variations.

while i didn't entirely agree with that post back then, i think the premise of it can be applied in this current metagame and that there is one 'best' team archetype at the moment. it is a case of players being able to get away with a team that has low risk in using and has very high reward. at the highest level there is almost no question that this build is the most common as seen in spl...


if you think my argument for keeping landorus ou is solely because it nerfs sand stall, maybe i was not clear enough. i actually briefly stated my main argument in my post, which is that its just like keldeo in the sense that it is incredibly strong, has the moves to get through dedicated special walls and usually walled by psychics. but these psychics can be exploited by specific sets or with pursuit tyranitar. landorus is about as close to being uber as keldeo in my opinion, and keldeo was voted ou easily.

my first statement was probably a bit brash, but landorus is one of the pokemon that actually keeps weatherless offense viable as it can threaten all three of the dominant weathers. my point is that sure there are plenty of ways to beat that sand team reliably but the things that do have almost no practical use against rain and sun. things like toxic spikes are just absorbed by tentacruel and venusaur, while physical water-types that hit celebi super effective really need the benefit of rain so they're not liabilities against sun teams (unless the sun team has no fly resist because then gyara could be strong). i don't want a scenario where it is basically rock-paper-scissors between sand, sun and rain (which is what we are close to) as i know exactly which i would be picking most of the time...

if a hypothetical scenario of drizzle / drought being banned did exist, i would definitely question landorus' ou status but at the moment it is encouraging some diversity while just being at the top of the pile of a lot of shit (a pile which also includes scald).

edit @ below: i'm not exactly sure what your point is. i said they were comparable not the exact same. nice you basically listed the advantages landorus has over keldeo... i can do the same for keldeo if i want (keldeo has dual stab, keldeo can hit special walls on their physical side, keldeo can outrun garchomp, keldeo can switch in on every weather starter depending on the set etc etc)

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

if you think my argument for keeping landorus ou is solely because it nerfs sand stall, maybe i was not clear enough. i actually briefly stated my main argument in my post, which is that its just like keldeo in the sense that it is incredibly strong, has the moves to get through dedicated special walls and usually walled by psychics. but these psychics can be exploited by specific sets or with pursuit tyranitar. landorus is about as close to being uber as keldeo in my opinion, and keldeo was voted ou easily.

However, there are some key differences between Keldeo and Landorus. The first is that Landorus can boost its speed with Rock Polish. Keldeo could be arguably even more dangerous than Landorus, but sadly, its only means of boosting speed is with a Choice Scarf or a SubSalac set. The second is that Landorus is much less dependent from weather than Keldeo. Keldeo can hit hard even outside of a rain team, yes, but on a rain team, it can sweep much more easily with its sets like Choice Scarf. The third is what can counter both. Keldeo and Landorus share two similar counters: Latias and Celebi. However, Keldeo is countered by even more Pokémon; Tentacruel, Amoonguss, Gastrodon (if Keldeo runs a Scarf set), Jellicent, Toxicroak... Now, name one of these counters that can also counter Landorus. Apart from Latias and Celebi, the only Pokémon that can "counter" Landorus are Gyarados and Zapdos, and even then they are shaky "counters" because they are weak to Stealth Rock, and the first even lacks reliable recovery. Tyranitar cannot deal with every Keldeo counter. For example, Toxicroak even counter Tyranitar itself, while Tentacruel gives Tyranitar serious problems, hitting it for super-effective damage and threathening to burn him.

 

[Seth Vilo]

Landorus-I, honestly, not worth a suspect. It's a lot like Keldeo, if you think about it. It can run a deadly set up set, or run Scarf and wreck. But, it doesn't have the offensive pressure for Ubers that Mons in Ubers have. Mamoswine is the easiest check to Landorus. Commonly used, Ice Shard is a one hit, assuming standard EV's. Weavile, not seen as much but does the same thing. Any Ice move, and Landorus is screwed. Now, in Ubers, it is flooded with Ice, something Landorus doesn't like. For those reasons, I believe that it should NOT be suspected. It would be a waste of a suspect like Keldeo was, in my opinion.

And once everything is set up and in place Ball-wise, you can pretty much instantly know which Landorus set is in front of you and adjust counters appropriately. A point I shall continue to drive into this thread. Ball animations are something we as competitive players haven't figured is needed to have in our simulators, and are now seeing the impact that has in the metagame and overall legality and prediction.

 

[LilOu]

Landorus-I, honestly, not worth a suspect. It's a lot like Keldeo, if you think about it. It can run a deadly set up set, or run Scarf and wreck. But, it doesn't have the offensive pressure for Ubers that Mons in Ubers have. Mamoswine is the easiest check to Landorus. Commonly used, Ice Shard is a one hit, assuming standard EV's. Weavile, not seen as much but does the same thing. Any Ice move, and Landorus is screwed. Now, in Ubers, it is flooded with Ice, something Landorus doesn't like. For those reasons, I believe that it should NOT be suspected. It would be a waste of a suspect like Keldeo was, in my opinion.

I'm just telling this to you because I made the same error. A pokemon's performance in Ubers plays ZERO bearing on whether it should be a suspect or not.

We are talking about his role in OU. If he is like a Pichu in Ubers...that is not the topic of this thread.

 

[yee]

it is worth noting that you made a fairly controversial post in the past where you said that currently there was one best team in the metagame. you then went on to post your own sand team along with a couple of variations.

while i didn't entirely agree with that post back then, i think the premise of it can be applied in this current metagame and that there is one 'best' team archetype at the moment. it is a case of players being able to get away with a team that has low risk in using and has very high reward. at the highest level there is almost no question that this build is the most common as seen in spl...


if you think my argument for keeping landorus ou is solely because it nerfs sand stall, maybe i was not clear enough. i actually briefly stated my main argument in my post, which is that its just like keldeo in the sense that it is incredibly strong, has the moves to get through dedicated special walls and usually walled by psychics. but these psychics can be exploited by specific sets or with pursuit tyranitar. landorus is about as close to being uber as keldeo in my opinion, and keldeo was voted ou easily.

my first statement was probably a bit brash, but landorus is one of the pokemon that actually keeps weatherless offense viable as it can threaten all three of the dominant weathers. my point is that sure there are plenty of ways to beat that sand team reliably but the things that do have almost no practical use against rain and sun. things like toxic spikes are just absorbed by tentacruel and venusaur, while physical water-types that hit celebi super effective really need the benefit of rain so they're not liabilities against sun teams (unless the sun team has no fly resist because then gyara could be strong). i don't want a scenario where it is basically rock-paper-scissors between sand, sun and rain (which is what we are close to) as i know exactly which i would be picking most of the time...

if a hypothetical scenario of drizzle / drought being banned did exist, i would definitely question landorus' ou status but at the moment it is encouraging some diversity while just being at the top of the pile of a lot of shit (a pile which also includes scald).

Man this reminds me that OU actually has improved a lil bit, in those days I would allow myself to be quoted as saying there are 4 teams worth using, although Latias being the only thing in the world that could handle Thund-T which was more common and ScarfTran being the only non crappy Genesect / Sun counter really cut it down. Sorry for not being more direct in my response because it was a blanket for every poster I wanted to get to rather than quoting every single person.

The 2nd part of your post brings me to a point that I feel is literally vital to get across to everyone, one I feel fuels Smogon's heartbeat. The reason we're told not to vote on suspects based whether we liked the metagame without better or not but rather if they're broken in the current one is because if we do vote that way, we're probably playing roll over with other things we think ruin the metagame. I get the feeling you don't like a lot of the BW stuff including Rain / Sun and are avoiding looking at Landorus because it encourages "divershitty" as a friend likes to call it but that can't be a reason to keep it. We can't keep Palkia in OU because it would stop Kyogre from being too dominating, we couldn't keep DrizzleSwim in OU to stop Excadrill from being too dominating, and we can't polish a turd as a lot of people like to say. If something is broken and kept around it's probably hiding more broken things. We can assume if we consider Landorus broken and that the bad meta part I have bolded happens due to getting rid of it, making further bans to rectify that situation would without any doubt be a competitive improvement for us. As Iconic says every time to everyone everytime a voting thread goes up, Vote based on whether or not you think the pokemon is broken, not which metagame you liked better. It can't be said enough.

If something can't exist in a balanced metagame, getting rid of it has to take absolute priority over everything (even a small ban list!). It's common sense but it's easy to forget which cannot happen if we want to get a satisfying game experience.

 

[kd24]

Lot's of people I am going to respond to for posts that I don't think are hitting the mark. I'll preface this by saying this post has no support or defense of Landorus-I, this is to point out why I disagree with these posts so we can avoid future mistakes.

Don't take offense if I'm singling you out. If I feel you didn't take the time to consider your post, I want to help improve you as posters.

However, there are some key differences between Keldeo and Landorus. The first is that Landorus can boost its speed with Rock Polish. Keldeo could be arguably even more dangerous than Landorus, but sadly, its only means of boosting speed is with a Choice Scarf or a SubSalac set. The second is that Landorus is much less dependent from weather than Keldeo. Keldeo can hit hard even outside of a rain team, yes, but on a rain team, it can sweep much more easily with its sets like Choice Scarf. The third is what can counter both. Keldeo and Landorus share two similar counters: Latias and Celebi. However, Keldeo is countered by even more Pokémon; Tentacruel, Amoonguss, Gastrodon (if Keldeo runs a Scarf set), Jellicent, Toxicroak... Now, name one of these counters that can also counter Landorus. Apart from Latias and Celebi, the only Pokémon that can "counter" Landorus are Gyarados and Zapdos, and even then they are shaky "counters" because they are weak to Stealth Rock, and the first even lacks reliable recovery. Tyranitar cannot deal with every Keldeo counter. For example, Toxicroak even counter Tyranitar itself, while Tentacruel gives Tyranitar serious problems, hitting it for super-effective damage and threathening to burn him.

Heist mentioned this in an edited on response, but this post is inappropriate when dealing with the suspect candidacy of Landorus-I. The point I believe you were going for is that Landorus-I is similar to Keldeo in many regards and is almost better in a lot of them, so a suspect test should be held for Landorus-I. The issue is this doesn't take into account metagame shifts (Tornadus-T and Deoxys-D have both been banned since) nor the advantages Keldeo has over Landorus-I.

Like I said, I understand what you were going for here but this post would have been better suited to detail out why Keldeo was declared a suspect in the first place, and use that to provide reasoning on why Landorus-I is suspect in your mind. Laying out how you identify a suspect can be a useful post and would have definitely been the right place to go here. This post as it is lacks this coherency.

Now, I understand this was a response post to Heist but his point was more focused on Keldeo being incredibly strong, suspected, and voted OU easily and was more about how Landorus-I is similar. It flowed into his post about how he thinks we want to ban things to make Sand Stall easier to play. I actually take issue with that but someone else addressed that Landorus-I is a burden on all teams and isn't the reason it could be suspect which is why I focused on you. Take time to establish your points more thoroughly.

And once everything is set up and in place Ball-wise, you can pretty much instantly know which Landorus set is in front of you and adjust counters appropriately. A point I shall continue to drive into this thread. Ball animations are something we as competitive players haven't figured is needed to have in our simulators, and are now seeing the impact that has in the metagame and overall legality and prediction.

While this does need to be changed, it's not the full scope of the argument. "Adjust appropriately" is fine to say but how do you adjust in the first place to the special set? This is the issue more at hand, which I feel you ignore.

I see this Suspect being quite similar to the last one. Deoxys and Landorus each have their main sets that are the reason they are being Suspected, as well as less common other options that get around counters while sacrificing some of their original purpose. There are two main differences between the two Suspects: what the Suspect sacrifices in order to beat its counters, and the cost of failing to prevent the Suspect from accomplishing its goal.

For example, in order for Deoxys to get around Forretress, it must either give up Magic Coat, Stealth Rocks, Spikes, or Taunt. Losing any one of these options means that a much larger group of Pokemon can prevent Deoxys from setting up its hazards. The opportunity cost of HP Fire Deoxys is very high. Now, take Sand Force Landorus. What do you lose? The ability to beat Skarmory, and other physical walls. What do you gain? The ability to beat most of your previous counters. With Deoxys, you traded beating one threat for losing to many others. With Landorus, you basically trade beating dedicated Physical walls for beating dedicated Special walls. You still beat any non-dedicated counter.

So to try and make this a little less confusing:

Deoxys-Defense @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Calm Nature
- Magic Coat
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt

Vs.

Deoxys-Defense @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 156 SDef / 252 HP / 100 SAtk
Calm Nature
- Magic Coat
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Hidden Power [Fire]

What you lose:
-Can not stop set up sweepers
-Must predict around with Magic Coat in order to stop Hazards being set on you
-A small amount of bulk

What you gain:
-You now beat a few previous counters

Now look at:

Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rock Polish

Vs.

Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
- U-turn

What you gain:
-You now beat Celebi and many other previous counters to Sheer Force Landorus

What you lose:
-You lose to Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Lando-T

So clearly, much like the late Deoxys-D, Landorus-I can beat all of its counters while giving up much less of its utility.

My second point is just what each Pokemon can accomplish should your counter to it fail for whatever reason. If the Celebi you need to beat Lando dies somehow, it's probably game over right there. If your Choice Band Tyranitar you were planning on beating Deoxys with gets Superpowered by Deo on turn 1, chances are Deoxys will just set up 2-3 layers of hazards, a much more manageable situation that a +2 Sheer Force Landorus.

I hope my heavy comparisons to another Pokemon do not violate the thread guidelines, however I think using the precedent of Deoxys-D is a necessary argument for the banning of Landorus-I.

This post is really off the mark. We shouldn't be taking the ball glitch into account for Landorus-I because that can be fixed, and we shouldn't be using Deoxys-D of all things to set precedent. Please reconsider your thoughts on Landorus-I if that is the only argument you have at the moment.

Banning Landorus-I, I feel, brings up a issue we have been dealing with a long time: That is, there is no real good defined standard of power. Every time OU bans something, it simply goes after the next best thing. So far, I've seen little evidence that Landorus-I is this amazing gamebreaker, and the very fact that there is a solid lack of consensus should speak volumes about how 'broken' it really is.

This is flawed thinking, at best. Dedicated wallbreakers are no longer a thing, and won't be a thing until you ban every single pokemon who can smash through walls with sheer power, which currently defines OU. Wallbreaking, walls, these concepts are somewhat obsolete now - you have glass cannons, and bulkymons. Sometimes, you will be able to fit a dedicated "wall" on your team, which will almost always be a steel type to stomach dragons. By the time we get to the point where dedicated wallbreakers are actually necessary, the Ubers banlist will be hilariously bloated.

In short, is Landorus-i one of the best if not the best pokemon in the metagame right now? Yes. But does that make it broken? No, as people have gone over before, it's not broken, simply the top threat. You have always had to prepare for the top threat in pokemon, hell you even have to prepare for lesser threats like Swords Dance Lucario who can also threaten to sweep an entire weakened team.

Also, U-turn isn't this magical, game-breaking force people seem to think it is. Landorus-i has a real bitch of a time swapping in, as others have already pointed out. If it's switching in, it's usually because it has you by the balls - if it goes for U-turn, it's sacrificing precious coverage, and taking additional LO recoil and hazards damage on top of having to swap in yet again. It also only resists one form of priority, and is quad weak to one source - strong priority can usually finish the job.


Finally


You see a Landorus on 7.5% of teams at best. It's hardly wrapping the metagame around itself. Sure, you have to have an answer for it, but it's hardly as if effective answers to Landorus are dead weight.

The first two paragraphs of your post made no sense. Discussing terms and just claiming "I haven't seen it" doesn't cut it. If you're not going to be clear or insightful, your post isn't needed.

The priority argument doesn't really make much sense. You're not backing it up with anything. Talk about why the priority is such a major blow to Landorus-I, how they're easy to switch in and abuse Landorus-I, or how Landorus-I grants them free opportunities. Truthfully, the fact that Landorus-I takes no damage from LO Recoil most of the time meant your argument didn't impress me. 0/0 Landorus is still sitting decently after a Scizor Bullet Punch even after Stealth Rock, decently enough to deliver a Hidden Power Ice later. Don't forget that Landorus-I hits back extremely hard vs all of those Pokemon, meaning you've spent 1 use of Priority (outside of Priority that OHKOs) to sac damage onto Landorus-I. Is it a still a threat at that point? Why or why not? Finish your argument here. The damage calcs I posted at the beginning were to be used as a resource for players and to point out its counters. You need to post substance behind damage calcs instead of "Priority hurts it too much".

As for your last point, usage stats (especially when wrong, please do fact-checking of relevant ladders) hold NO BEARING on the status of a pokemon. Deoxys-D was not that high in usage, Pokemon like Wobbuffet in DP were not either. We decide based on the merit of the Pokemon, NOT on the likelyhood we will be playing it. I hope that no one posts usage statistics as a dictating point again. If you do, your post will most likely be deleted.

 

[Darknut07]

Once a team has taken care of 10 or so of its OU counters, many pokemon can sweep with a boost. Most of the dragons, Terrakion, and even things like Lucario come to mind. I understand that we don't know which set Landorus is but many other powerful sweepers in OU can pull of mixed sets, and I think they do it even more effectively. When faced with a Landorus, the first thing I check for is T-tar. If I don't see it, I think it's a safe bet to assume it a special sweeper. If t-tar is present, it can go either way, but I'd err betting on the sheer force set still. This same predicament arises if my opponent has a Terrakion (and this used to happen a lot a few months ago). Is it RP? Is it SD? Is it both? While Landorus is a very powerful and dangerous pokemon, I don't feel like it is anywhere close to over-centralizing the metagame.

 

[BKC]

hey guys if your reasoning for not wanting to ban landorus is because it's a sun check that isn't dugtrio prone then we have a problem!

if your reasoning is that we "keep banning the so-called next best thing" then we also have a problem!

i can't speak for everyone but my reasoning for wanting lando gone isn't so my sand stall team gets better, it's because it literally has no counters. the sheer force set is hard enough to beat as it is (latias/sdef cele are the best checks, both are pursuit weak and get slaughtered by u-turn) but when you factor in that it could be running its physical set (before you say it's extinct i'll tell you that's untrue, as myself & dragonuser have both been using it to great effect recently) then it's just like... ok how do i possibly beat this thing?

it's not just sand stall that it shits on, it is literally every team possible. by the time you find out if doesn't have rock polish, it's u-turned out of your celebi/latias for an easy tyranitar pursuit. even without rock polish, being able to kill something on offensive teams every time it comes in is also a big deal.

also landorus does not beg the game to be decided on matchup, cmon lavos... even if your opponent has 1-2 checks to it then they're STILL not safe.

btw don't kid yourselves that this pokeball glitch (whatever it is) might make lando more manageable, even if you know lando is the sheer force variant (which it usually is but no guarantees) you're still going to get crushed by it!

 

[Taylor]

I've seen others and possibly many more using the Life Orb set that is made up with most of its special moves using U-turn over Rock Polish with a Naive/Rash nature, perhaps even just Jolly because the only physical move it uses thrives on pivotally gains momentum while favoring mainly on its special prowess throughout most of its moveset.

lol I remember Haunter laughing in the usage thread during BW2's release about how I'd be so proud seeing Landorus-I rising so dramatically. At this time, it might be one of the more prominent and powerful threats since Tornadus-T / Deoxys-D's bans because it achieves those immediate and impressive damage calcs on its own.

I think what most people see is a Pokemon that unlike Terrakion, who has at least somewhat of a decent check in Landorus-T (which is often seen on players teams' because it counters the metagame's physical side reasonably well), Landorus-I really only needs sandstorm + Stealth Rock to pose a serious threat, and that's a combination which is not exactly hard to set up itself. And luckily for Landorus-I, he can take its other form, Landorus-T, with minimal effort in Hidden Power Ice.


Honestly there's not many Choice users except for the likes of CBScizor / SpecsToed / TrickScarf varients like Ojama mentioned are commonly seen least not how effective they can be. It's not absurdly fast or difficult to kill/respond to like Tornadus-T, and you can rely on Lati@s to effectively deal with the main set in question. Revenge Killing with Mamoswine or perhaps even CBScizor after Stealth Rock and prior damage taken after attacking Landorus-I on the turn it sets up Rock Polish. It's not needed to make an outstanding team despite its power to help you in tight situations because it's clearly a very versatile threat in many ways.

Feels like we've not been too surprised this happens nowadays because the way threats are suitably adapted to gain the upperhand in any metagame. Worth of a suspect test? Maybe, given under the right conditions it excells in the sweeping aspect but not anything as abdruptly devastating like Garchomp back in the DP era and mid-early stages of BW. Is it really desirable to test Landorus-I now, all the while looking ahead towards a new generation?

 

[Pocket]

From past to present suspect discussions, there is one major flawed argument that is always thrown around to make a poor case of banning suspect - unpredictability / versatility of the suspect. A Pokemon like Dragonite or Jirachi may have numerous viable sets that may catch you off-guard, but the sum of all their viable sets =/= broken! To illustrate a ScarfTar for instance will play drastically different from a non-scarfed Tyranitar - but such unpredictability does not make Tyranitar broken. What usually makes a Pokemon broken / suspect-worthy is that one set it performs best. Excadrill was banned because of its SD set, not for its Rapid Spin (I roll eyes every time somebody mentioned Excadrill's spinning capabilities as a reason to ban - WE NEED SPINNERS DAMNIT); Deoxys-S was banned because of its Dual Screens / Entry Hazards set, not because of its LO Sweeper set. Versatility / unpredictability of suspect should only come at hand when said Pokemon have multiple sets that are broken, with each set having distinctly different checks and counters (if any).

We all agree that Landorus is being discussed as a potential suspect for its Rock Polish set, NOT because it has the capability of utilizing either Sheer Force or a physical set. If Sand Force set was any problem at all, we would have banned Landorus ages ago. A Landorus-I with 10 Atk would still be brought up as a potential suspect today, because the physical set has NO BEARING to the suspect status of Landorus. Avoid bringing up Landorus's ability to play both physical and special offense as an excuse to ban Landorus - such posts will be moderated in the future in order to have this discussion more focused and relevant.

In a similar vein, avoid bringing up Landorus's alternative special options such as Psychic and Sludge Wave, since these are suboptimal variants of the Rock Polish set, with larger pools of counters.

What makes a Pokemon "suspect-worthy," is the consistency in pulling off its best set, and the degree of strain this one set imposes onto the metagame. Deoxys-S was banned because it can consistently set up Dual Screens or hazards without fail; Excadrill was banned because its one SD set can rip teams apart with little support. Landorus is "suspect-worthy," because of the ease in setting up Rock Polish and sweep teams unhindered.

As I just alluded in my previous statement, I believe the only suspect-worthy Landorus set at hand is the Rock Polish set. The U-turn set or any other deviants of the Sheer Force set are inferior / non-broken sets of Landorus that frankly owes little significance to the discussion at hand. Landorus is scary, because it can find many opportunities to set up a Rock Polish to fix its modest Speed to destroy everything with its amazing special artillery. U-turn Landorus gives up on this crucial sweeping potential (the reason why it's possibly broken) to relegate Landorus into a lesser support Pokemon that facilitates sweep for other Special Sweepers, who shares the same counters as Landorus; Sheer Force Landorus with SR + U-turn takes even more of a utilitarian role in expense of its ability to sweep. An unboosted Landorus simply has too many checks available to be considered broken.

What makes RPolish Landorus so difficult is that you now cannot check it with Scarfers or faster Pokemon (ie Tornadus, Starmie, Scarf Politoed) and Landorus is relatively resilient to priority attacks not named Ice Shard / Aqua Jet. Unlike what some people said previously, Landorus is quite bulky for an offensive Pokemon, allowing it to survive that "last resort" hit from the opponent to subsequently sweep the entire team. Landorus is hard to wear down, too, because it doesn't take much damage from entry hazards or weather and experiences LO recoil rarely (which can't be said about U-turn Landorus, who will be racking extra SR damage and LO recoils from U-turn).

So the question I would like to pose in this discussion: ignoring all other Landorus sets, do you believe Rock Polish Landorus is a threat that cannot be practically dealt without a ban? Does our current metagame lack the resources and tools to keep RP Landorus at bay? Whether or not Landorus should stay or leave is determined by how you feel Landorus's RPolish sets affect this metagame.

 

[nyttyn]

Upon further review, I agree that Priority is usually not going to be the best answer to Landorus, but it is an answer that should be considered, as prior damage will mean that a lot of priority is capable of killing it. Its bulk is actually pretty high all things considered, but gets lets down by a weakness to water. It was my fault for not checking the suspect usage, but 17% still isn't centralizing - top 10 threats tend to have usage in that neighborhood. And according to the 1850 stats Landorus still only has 10% usage. While a lot of people will value the suspect usage above the 1850, I think that's still important to keep. I also agree that the Rock Polish set is his best set.

That being said, I'm not really seeing what makes Landorus impossible to deal with. It's a juggernaut, to be certain, but the high usage of rain makes it a liability in a lot of games. It's not like it's just going to instantly win the game the second it gets sent out either - there are a number of pokemon that it flat out fails to OHKO, which will threaten a OHKO in return. Here are some of them:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 191-226 (63.87 - 75.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

56+ SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 374-444 (117.24 - 139.18%) -- guaranteed OHKO (HP ice is 91.53 - 109.09%, which is also a OHKO after rocks.)

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 182-216 (51.26 - 60.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 325-383 (101.88 - 120.06%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 230-270 (59.89 - 70.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Politoed Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 300-356 (94.04 - 111.59%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 250-294 (77.16 - 90.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 468-552 (146.7 - 173.04%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yes, Landorus is goddamn scary as shit, but so long as you either A. keep one pokemon it fails to OHKO that can OHKO back or B. Keep one ice shard user in the wings, you will be able to handle it. At worst, strong priroity can kill it if it has suffered prior damage, and if it starts to go straight for the killing a scarf user can come in to murder it. Unfortunately most stall teams are going to terribly suffer against it, but stall is not exactly a optimal playstyle anymore – they will have to adapt or die.

Perhaps if Rain wasn’t such a huge part of the metagame Landorus would be too strong, but Rain’s huge popularity as a playstyle plus the fact that it’s still possible to be beat at any stage in the game by anything that fulfills the prior conditions (and most well built, optimal teams have at least one) leads me to believe Landorus-I simply fails to be suspect caliber. The fact that it has a 3 in 10 chance to fail to sweep thanks to Focus Blast's horrible accuracy doesn't exactly help either. While hax usually isn't a valid argument, a 30% chance to simply fail to sweep (which actually goes up for every additional focus blast hit you need to make) is significant enough to be a serious point against Landorus-I.

Edit: also ignore the fact that the first calc is in its own seprate quote - I keep trying to add it to the others but for some strange reason it keeps seperating itself into its own quote.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

i can't speak for everyone but my reasoning for wanting lando gone isn't so my sand stall team gets better, it's because it literally has no counters. the sheer force set is hard enough to beat as it is (latias/sdef cele are the best checks, both are pursuit weak and get slaughtered by u-turn) but when you factor in that it could be running its physical set (before you say it's extinct i'll tell you that's untrue, as myself & dragonuser have both been using it to great effect recently) then it's just like... ok how do i possibly beat this thing?

I agree with you, but remember; it's because it has no counters, and with Rock Polish, it becomes uncheckable without Mamoswine or Weavile. Hydreigon has no counters, but the fact that it has mediocre speed means that it is far from broken. Mamoswine has very few counters, but is easy to check with something that outspeeds and resists Ice Shard because it has no way to boost its speed. Finally, the aforementioned Keldeo even shares many of its counters with Sheer Force Landorus, and can even get past its counters with the right move and conditions (for example, E-Belt can get past Celebi with HP Bug). This makes Keldeo broken? No, because it is rather easy to check. The Choice Scarf set is hard to check, but it is weaker than other sets and is easy to deal due to being locked on a move.

 

[nyttyn]

I agree with you, but remember; it's because it has no counters, and with Rock Polish, it becomes uncheckable without Mamoswine or Weavile. Hydreigon has no counters, but the fact that it has mediocre speed means that it is far from broken. Mamoswine has very few counters, but is easy to check with something that outspeeds and resists Ice Shard because it has no way to boost its speed. Finally, the aforementioned Keldeo even shares many of its counters with Sheer Force Landorus, and can even get past its counters with the right move and conditions (for example, E-Belt can get past Celebi with HP Bug). This makes Keldeo broken? No, because it is rather easy to check. The Choice Scarf set is hard to check, but it is weaker than other sets and is easy to deal due to being locked on a move.

Rock polish alone does not make Landorus uncheckable. There are still pokemon who can eat a hit and then OHKO Landorus in return if you choose not to use a Ice Shard user, and if you choose to use a Ice Shard user on your team they will pretty much always instantly kill Landorus. In addition, since it takes a turn to set up Rock Polish, if the situation is desprate you can go ahead and throw out an attack while he sets up, leaving any priority not named Mach Punch free to come in and finish the job unless it was a reaaaallly weak attack you threw out.

 

[LilOu]

I agree with Pocket here. Landorus really needs Rock Polish to attempt a sweep; if you use Calm Mind you are easily checked by faster foes, if you use Substitute you die way too quickly and, if you use U-turn, you are obligated to use a + Speed nature, lacking the power that a Modest one possesses, as well as receiving recoil damage every time you use the switching move.

Now, speaking of if it deserves a suspect or not, it is really powerful and all, but there are ways to deal with him. It is true that finding a free turn to set-up is not that hard, and here is where the game becomes fun, I love those moments when you have to predict in order to keep momentum, otherwise the game would be boring.

 

[BKC]

we aren't going to give up on the bw ou metagame even though xy will be here relatively soon, reason being that bw ou will still be influential in several important tournaments even after the release of xy (SPL, tour), so we are not going to let it rot just because a new generation's around the corner.

as for the actual suspect...

even though pocket's logic is contradicted by the banning of threats such as genesect & dpp salamence, i'll bite. before i do, however, i have to take a second to stare aghast at the fact that pocket seems to think that we cannot factor in the possibility of landorus using other moves in order to determine if it is broken or not.

anyways, let's assume u-turn & cm landorus disappear, and rock polish is all that's left. does our metagame, pocket asks, have the tools to reasonably handle rp lando? no, bkc answers, our metagame does not possess such tools.

first off, landorus forces every single balanced/defensive team to pack specially defensive celebi. sdef cele is an amazing pokemon in general, yes, but it should not be a necessity on every team. the alternatives to not running celebi are... latias (hit hard by hp ice & brutally raped by tyranitar), zapdos (horrible counter, shaky check), rotom-w (not even a counter, mediocre check), amoonguss (mediocre check), and bliss/chans (terrible in this meta). this is all assuming it never has u-turn or calm mind, btw...

against offensive teams, landorus's ridiculous power allows it to OHKO (or come close at the very least) just about every offensively-inclined pokemon. it has resistances to several common (often choiced) attacks as well as decent bulk, so it's not exactly a glass cannon. it's not weak to most priority, so if you want to rely on revenge killing it that way, you'll probably have to sac at least two mons (the initial switch-in as it rock polishes, and then one of your priority users). mamoswine's priority ice shard kills it in one shot, sure, but lando won't bother using rp if it sees a mamo on the opposing team; whenever it comes in, it'll just destroy whatever switches in with its stupidly powerful attacks. it's not easy to wear down, either, between its stealth rock neutrality and the fact that it only takes life orb damage from using hp ice.

this thing cannot get banned fast enough

 

[peng]

-Ridiculously long post-

Could you clarify why having multiple effective sets with mutually exclusive lists of counters and checks shouldn't be a reason to ban something? Its been the basis for multiple bans in the past including one of the most discussed bans in Smogon's history. This thread shows some of Smogon's best battlers used Salamence's versatility and unpredictability as a major basis for its eventual ban - why can't we apply exactly the same principle here?

I generally don't like referring back to old bans when assessing something on the chopping block, but I feel DPP Salamence and BW2 Landorus-I are pretty similar in principle. Both have an excellent speed-boosting set that wreck offense with very little support. They also have a set that beats pretty much everything that people use to check their first set, allowing them to either tear through defensive cores or set-up a partner to sweep (or both). However, this is where the similarities end.

The division between the top players and the mediocre players is closer now than it has probably ever been simply due to all the new shit BW and BW2 have brought. Weather and ridiculously powerful attackers has put the game in a position where teambuilding and playing is far too easy to the point of being mindless - the result of this is that literally anyone can throw together a team that is competitive and win games vs better players on a good match-up alone. The current meta promotes far too many situations where a player can win with barely any thought. I'm writing this as someone who has been on both sides of team match-up - the losses are always shit and the wins never feel earnt or justified.

I feel as though Landorus-I is one of the major contributing factors to this "autopilot" metagame - its an SR-neutral, Spikes and Thunder Wave-immune Pokemon that doesn't take Sandstorm damage and outspeeds every common revenge-killer after a turn of set-up. Sheer Force removes the only real drawback from switching in and throwing off an Earth Power. The lack of Life Orb recoil on your most used attack means Landorus sticks around far longer than anything else like it. The "its 4x weak to Ice Shard, just use Mamoswine!" line everyone used for Salamence way-back simply doesn't factor into this argument because Landorus-I takes a grand total of 12% recoil from using a 1.7x boosted Earth Power, switching out of your Mamoswine and then switching back in 5 turns later. The point here is that Landorus' resistance to most residual damage means a well played genie is long outlasting your Mamoswine or Scizor before even contemplating using Rock Polish. Not to mention its one of the best users of U-Turn (possibly the most mindlessly usable attack in the game) allowing it to lure-in and beat Celebi and Latias, its only two "counters".

All-in-all I just think Landorus-I is far too easy to use. Basically every other Pokemon has some kind of drawback, be it hazards susceptibility or taking too much residual damage or being revenge-killed / walled too easily. Landorus-I has no such drawback. It throws off some of the most powerful attacks the tier has ever seen for free and simply doesn't get worn down, allowing it to long outlast its checks. On top of this it gets to choose between outspeeding basically everything after a turn of set-up or efficiently bait in and eliminate Celebi and Latias to seamlessly pave the way for Keldeo.

tl;dr Landorus is super strong, outlasts everything and has a very narrow list of counters that are all donked by U-Turn.

 

[Pocket]

Genesect could run plethora of effective sets, and it's probably one of the few exceptions to the rule. Choice Scarf and Rock Polish sets are the main highlights of Genesect's career in OU, and Genesect does both extremely well with high consistency. As I said in my previous post, you may use the versatility argument in a case where multiple broken sets, each set having distinct checks, exist for that suspect. I believe Landorus-I's only has 1 broken set - the Rock Polish set. Everything else, even the Sheer Force U-turn set, are inferior non-broken sets that competent players can choose to use to better their team.

As for DPP Salamence, let's not bring this up. For one, it's a controversial suspect topic, with a sizable group of players who still oppose the council's decision. Secondly, it's a different generation, where team preview did not exist - unpredictability is a much more relevant issue than in BW2. Finally, STAB Outrage vs Draco Meteor are far more threatening than STAB EQ vs Earth Power.

Thank you both for complying with my request and having the discussion focused on RPolish Landorus, though. You both have provided valid reasons that even I can appreciate. I'd like to keep the discussion focused on RPolish Landorus for now.

 

[alexwolf]

hey guys if your reasoning for not wanting to ban landorus is because it's a sun check that isn't dugtrio prone then we have a problem!

if your reasoning is that we "keep banning the so-called next best thing" then we also have a problem!

i can't speak for everyone but my reasoning for wanting lando gone isn't so my sand stall team gets better, it's because it literally has no counters. the sheer force set is hard enough to beat as it is (latias/sdef cele are the best checks, both are pursuit weak and get slaughtered by u-turn) but when you factor in that it could be running its physical set (before you say it's extinct i'll tell you that's untrue, as myself & dragonuser have both been using it to great effect recently) then it's just like... ok how do i possibly beat this thing?

it's not just sand stall that it shits on, it is literally every team possible. by the time you find out if doesn't have rock polish, it's u-turned out of your celebi/latias for an easy tyranitar pursuit. even without rock polish, being able to kill something on offensive teams every time it comes in is also a big deal.

also landorus does not beg the game to be decided on matchup, cmon lavos... even if your opponent has 1-2 checks to it then they're STILL not safe.

btw don't kid yourselves that this pokeball glitch (whatever it is) might make lando more manageable, even if you know lando is the sheer force variant (which it usually is but no guarantees) you're still going to get crushed by it!

You know that having no counters alone doesn't say a lot, and there are many Pokemon that fit this creteria and are comfortably OU. What's more is that there are Pokemon that can wall both Sheer Force sets, namely RestTalk Gyarados, SpD Bronzong, and SpD Zapdos.

Also the Pokeball thing is actually a big deal as knowing whether you are fighting a special or physical Landorus is very important. The moment you see that Landorus is special you know that the Pokemon i mentioned can wall it.

I also don't get why some people say that the reasoning of ''i would ban Landorus in a metagame with less overall power but not in this one'' is wrong. It just means that Landorus fits fine with the current power level we have in OU, not that the other factors that create this power level are broken (rain and sun).

EDIT: Also PenguinX, X Pokemon is too easy to use is not an argument to ban something. I get it that you don't like this auto-pilot metagame, and nor do i, but you should have a better target to ban than ''good and easy to use Pokemon''. No matter how many Pokemon we ban, there will always be powerful, resilient attackers that will be easy to use, so i don't see this as a reason to ban Landorus.

 

[capefeather]

I don't think that Landorus is broken from my experience. That experience may or may not change. I've been following some of the arguments in this thread and on IRC. I understand the argument that Landorus has too good of a combination of power, speed, coverage, and even a bit of bulk. However, a lot of people seem to view the Landorus suspect problem as a means to an end, a cog in some grand scheme to improve the metagame. So I don't know if it's relevant at this moment to step back and reevaluate what we're doing here, but it surely will be relevant eventually, and since we're not actually doing a suspect test right now, this seems as good a time as any. Or maybe this merits a thread of its own...

A lot of people think that this metagame is bad. Yet, we're running into a problem in trying to "fix" it. Why is that? I start with a usage stat comparison:

stat comparison

February 2013 usage stats | 1    | Scizor             | 23.10515% | 139645 | 18.881% | 110608 | 18.675% |
 | 2    | Ferrothorn         | 19.66249% | 131261 | 17.747% | 112948 | 19.070% |
 | 3    | Politoed           | 18.81722% | 115529 | 15.620% | 105384 | 17.793% |
 | 4    | Dragonite          | 16.84758% | 119057 | 16.097% | 91659  | 15.476% |
 | 5    | Tyranitar          | 15.50415% | 96046  | 12.986% | 82893  | 13.996% |
 | 6    | Heatran            | 15.21281% | 89370  | 12.083% | 72395  | 12.223% |
 | 7    | Jirachi            | 14.82477% | 83985  | 11.355% | 68368  | 11.543% |
 | 8    | Breloom            | 14.46551% | 95434  | 12.903% | 75244  | 12.704% |
 | 9    | Rotom-Wash         | 13.86945% | 75203  | 10.168% | 65012  | 10.977% |
 | 10   | Latios             | 13.24432% | 73704  |  9.965% | 57602  |  9.725% |
 | 11   | Terrakion          | 13.01733% | 67654  |  9.147% | 49428  |  8.345% |
 | 12   | Gengar             | 12.64519% | 98041  | 13.256% | 76354  | 12.892% |
 | 13   | Starmie            | 11.57768% | 78294  | 10.586% | 60141  | 10.154% |
 | 14   | Garchomp           | 11.38806% | 79663  | 10.771% | 61523  | 10.388% |
 | 15   | Forretress         | 10.95090% | 70284  |  9.503% | 60335  | 10.187% |

[url=http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78421]August 2010 usage stats[/url]
|    1 | Heatran    | 255319 |   26.57 |
|    2 | Scizor     | 212167 |   22.08 |
|    3 | Gengar     | 185644 |   19.32 |
|    4 | Gyarados   | 184813 |   19.23 |
|    - | Rotom-A    | 184685 |   19.22 |
|    5 | Tyranitar  | 180351 |   18.77 |
|    6 | Starmie    | 164965 |   17.16 |
|    7 | Infernape  | 160209 |   16.67 |
|    8 | Dragonite  | 156091 |   16.24 |
|    9 | Metagross  | 145789 |   15.17 |
|   10 | Jirachi    | 144533 |   15.04 |
|   11 | Flygon     | 140883 |   14.66 |
|   12 | Lucario    | 128640 |   13.39 |
|   13 | Machamp    | 124761 |   12.98 |
|   14 | Swampert   | 122424 |   12.74 |
|   15 | Azelf      | 122374 |   12.73 |

In the DPP stats, there are two Pokemon above 20% usage and ten above 15% usage. In the February stats, there is one Pokemon above 20% usage and there are six above 15% usage. Now, this could mean a lot of things. It could mean that the metagame isn't actually as "bad" as some of us might say it is. Of course, usage is not an accurate indicator of power on an individual Pokemon, but when we're looking at everything in the aggregate, we have to wonder. Are BW players somehow "worse" at finding the broken threats than DPP players were? Is something else going on here?

Well, maybe we just don't like using usage stats to try to make a point, so let's turn to tournament players, C&C writers, etc., people we supposedly respect as authorities on this matter. Well, here's where some bubbles are going to get burst, because as strongly people feel about their shit lists... different people have different shit lists. People think Landorus is obviously broken while Keldeo is not, but then there are other people who think the exact opposite! Lots of people think that rain dominates the metagame, but I've heard arguments that sand is dominant (based on SPL) and maybe the dragon spam is worse. Maybe that's what the stats are really telling us: that even if we think the metagame is bad, we disagree on why that is. If we satisfied everybody's complaints, then we'd probably end up banning rain, sand, sun, several Dragon-types, Landorus... and at that point, would we really have a metagame that everybody likes? It's hard to say, and it would be completely unfeasible, anyway... unless we collectively decide that OU isn't the "main" metagame anymore and play UU or something.

I'm saying this because I've heard these blanket statements for the entirety of BW2. "Who in their right mind would think that Black Kyurem is not broken?" The trouble with these is that people do disagree with the loud, strong opinions - people in tournaments, people in C&C, people on the damn council. And if such people are not in their right mind, then we are seriously screwed to begin with and none of this matters.

Personally, I'm very wary of trying to make any more changes to this banlist for the sake of fulfilling a noble quest that has turned out to be really vague and different for everyone. Any change to the banlist could potentially upset the relative decentralization of the metagame, and make it worse at precisely the time that people are going to remember the most. Attempts at decentralization often result in recentralization.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Genesect could run plethora of effective sets, and it's probably one of the few exceptions to the rule. Choice Scarf and Rock Polish sets are the main highlights of Genesect's career in OU, and Genesect does both extremely well with high consistency. As I said in my previous post, you may use the versatility argument in a case where multiple broken sets, each set having distinct checks, exist for that suspect.

Funny you should mention.

So Scarf Genesect isn't all that great, and RP Genesect gets solidly checked or hard-walled by many mons. Where does broken come into picture?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4487777&postcount=321

So if Genesect wasn't broken for its individual sets, then why do you suppose it was voted to be banned? Could it be that, similar to Landorus, Genesect was able to use several sets and variations of said sets to beat its usual checks, making it unpredictable and hard to safely keep in check?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but almost everyone I asked about Genesect during its suspect period agreed that it was the Rock Polish set that was the most broken. Base 120 SpA + Rock Polish + possible Download boost + insane coverage was a real hassle for most teams to handle, and some Pokemon might be able to keep it in check unless it ran a certain coverage move (i.e. CB Terrakion was beaten by Giga Drain when normally it could take a Thunderbolt/Ice Beam and OHKO back with Close Combat). However, what also hurt was the fact that you might respond as though Genesect was running Rock Polish, when suddenly you get screwed over by U-turn. Or you might respond to a predicted Scarf set only to have it set up Rock Polish and sweep. Genesect could run a variety of sets, as you mentioned earlier, each with different checks.

The problem is that Landorus does the same thing. Rock Polish makes Landorus a very dangerous sweeper, but an ignorant layman reading some of the arguments in this thread might get the impression that Landorus sucks without it. This isn't true, as Landorus can run different options instead and go for an all-out attacker set with great success. Many of its usual checks can be beaten with the right move. SpD Celebi is easily 2HKO'd by Sludge Wave, and any non-SpD Rotom-W can be safely 2HKO'd as well (even SpD is 2HKO'd by Focus Blast after Stealth Rock). Celebi and Latias both hate switching into U-turn, allowing the Landorus user to eliminate it with Tyranitar the next turn or at least soften it up for later.

And this isn't even taking into account the classic Sand Force Landorus, which is still really powerful. Remember, with a Sand Force boost, the only common OU Pokemon that can escape a 2HKO from physical LO Landorus after SR are Skarmory, Celebi, and Def Hippowdon (still 2HKO'd about half the time), so disregarding it as a threat is just wrong. I know the argument has come up that "if physical Landorus were broken, we would have banned it long ago," but honestly, how many suspect tests did Excadrill go through before it was banned? And what about Deoxys-D, which was just banned recently after being unbanned for most of 5th Gen?

I really don't like this idea of only discussing only Rock Polish special Landorus. If we were to begin a suspect test for Landorus right now, we would not be testing RP Landorus; we would be testing Landorus as a whole. When you discuss a Pokemon as powerful and versatile as Landorus, you have to take everything into account. Realistically, people do run other options on Landorus even besides the standard Earth Power / Focus Blast / HP Ice / Rock Polish setup, and it performs very well with other sets. Now I understand that you're in charge here, Pocket, and ultimately that is your call, but I still think this discussion should be expanded to Landorus in its entirety.

Long story short, Landorus is like former bans such as Genesect and Deoxys-D in that he has one obviously powerful set, but he can run other successful options that require different methods of keeping it in check. I can respect arguments against his ban (I'm not entirely set on either side just yet), but I don't think we should be limiting discussion to a limited number of sets that someone might think are the only broken ones.

 

[Sound]

Lando. In my opinion, it's simply hard to fight against. Offense teams are on pins and needles trying to make sure it doesn't get any free turns to RP, in which case, you better have a priority attacker (or, something heavily invested in bulk that can take a blow). If you do have a priority attacker, how do you get them in? If Lando decides to attack instead of setting up, chances are that it'll die switching in. This leaves revenge killing, but you need to keep in mind that the only priority user to cleanly 1HKO Lando is Mamoswine. If you're using Scizor, Lucario, or BandNite, you're gonna need some prior damage. Due to its SR neutrality, Spikes immunity, and SF cancelling out LO recoil on several of its stronger moves, where is it coming from? Well, basically, you can only throw out moves that will damage Lando. As the game goes on, however, and you get a better read of your opponent, this becomes a good deal simpler (are they willing to risk an HP Ice from my Thund-T? No? Volt-turn time). I feel like I'm slowly delving into battling 101, so I'll simply leave off here and say that's simply how I fight versus Lando.

However, most of those apply to a lot of threats in the metagame. So, what makes Lando special? Several things. The first the Ground Stab. Ground is actually quite a good stab, especially for a sweeper. Sure, tons of immunities floating around everywhere, but much less resistances than the average Stab. Next off is his dual typing. Ground makes him Electric immune, Flying makes him Ground and Spikes immune, and SR neutral. While the 4x ice weakness hurts, it matters much less when the only pokemon able to actually hit you with it are limited to Mamoswine and (the almighty) Weavile. It is also blessed with the one boosting move it needs to sweep, Rock Polish. It also has other sets with entirely different counters (Your beloved Celebi switchs in on an E-Belt U-turn? Say hi to Keldeo for me), as other's have said. Fighting Lando is often a guessing game, as I will never assume it's RP set until I have somewhat definite proof.

And, the crux of things. Are these qualities enough to ban it? Given everything else in the metagame, I feel like Landorus fits in fine, but I don't consider that a good thing. There are plenty of powerful threats in the metagame, but it all seems to balance out a bit. Again, I feel like Lando is powerful, dominating, but simply another top tier threat that needs to be adjusted to. If that means a more priority dominant metagame, well, several of the lower tiers already have this (RU just loves it), so it's not like its too bad.