Maybe you should add Sheer Force : 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 204-242 (47.88 - 56.8%) -- 88.28% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
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Landorus-I Discussion: Evaluating a Potential Suspect
- Thread starter kd24
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Maybe you should add Sheer Force : 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 204-242 (47.88 - 56.8%) -- 88.28% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
ah whoops messed up my calc, ok so now you're assuming modest and also that rocks are up and lefties are not taken into account though. still i apologize for screwing up the calc, forgetting sheer force is not like me. guess i was just in a hurry to prove yee wrong. my point about checks and stuff still stands though, try latios, latias, gyarados, zapdos, celebi, etc. on for size.
No one is discussing Focus Blast. The odds of landing 2 FB's in a row are 49%. This is just not reliable. I am not saying this ruins the pokemon. But it means that relying on it to sweep is really dangerous. Maybe worse in my opinion even if you predict rotom-W (or something else you FB against) coming in 30% of the time you get no benefeits. Also in order to 2HKO some counters it needs to use earth power and this gives oppurtunities for ground immunes who beat Lando 1v1 a chance to come in. Leading with hp ice is maybe worse because it does little dmg if they are not weak to it and costs you LO. Also this thing only has normal has 115 special atk when it uses HP Ice and this shows.
I persoanlly find Landorus to be really fun to play against. In practice the user has to make alot of predictions to get through many teams. On rain stall I find chansey + politoed to be suffient converage to not get swept. On offense I usally am fine with just something like latios/rotom + scizor. If he does not run RP I fail to see why he is even that threatening of a pokemon. Easy to outspeed.
I persoanlly find Landorus to be really fun to play against. In practice the user has to make alot of predictions to get through many teams. On rain stall I find chansey + politoed to be suffient converage to not get swept. On offense I usally am fine with just something like latios/rotom + scizor. If he does not run RP I fail to see why he is even that threatening of a pokemon. Easy to outspeed.
You guys should also include things like Sludge Wave because it can 2HKO specially defensive Celebi, Gyarados, and Zapdos after rocks. It's a really interesting move to use in that it allows Landorus to bust through most(if not all) of its conventional counters and still retain good coverage. Cresselia and the blobs are really the only things that can counter it. But those pokemon can all be handled by Scizor and Tyranitar which are common partners to Landorus.
Landorus hits like a truck and will destroy every unprepared team. I'll use as an example the last team I made with Stoned: Breelom, Hydreigon, Landorus-T, Tyranitar, Jirachi and Keldeo.
I peaked #15 on PO with this team featuring Hydreigon, however; it is completely destroyed by Rock Polish Landorus. Just think about it, nothing can take a hit without dying. I didn't want to use Latios / Latias because Hydreigon was the super star, so my main answer to the threat was to keep the momentum; never, never and NEVER let Lando set up, otherwise it was game. Usually, if Lando managed to get a free switch in against something like Tyranitar, I had no other choice apart from attacking because, if my opponent predicted the switch, I was dead; sometimes they tried to RP and ended up losing Landorus against Stone Edge from Banded T-tar, but, in other cases, they just went for the Focus Blast / Earth Power.
Now, my secondary plan (if they managed to set up) was to Life Orb stall it (which is pretty hard) until they had something like 30% HP (obviously with some prior damage) and then hit it with a +0 Fighting Gem-boosted Mach Punch doing 27% minimum :[ Pathetic, I know, it was a f*****g nightmare.
Suddenly I got bored of that team, and when I get bored of a team I can't win, so Stoned gave me his rain team with Torn-T (we play on PO usually): Politoed, Keldeo, Dragonite, Tornadus-T, Jirachi and Donphan. Actually, we had 0 counters to Landorus, but we had a powerful check called priority.
It didn't matter if he sets up or not, he doesn't kill Torn with HP ice and the combination of Ice Shard from Donphan and Extremespeed from Banded Dnite was my main way to deal with him. I have never had problems with this guy while using this team and I was not carrying Celebi, Gyrados, Latias, Jellicent, etc.
Adding more info tomorrow.
I peaked #15 on PO with this team featuring Hydreigon, however; it is completely destroyed by Rock Polish Landorus. Just think about it, nothing can take a hit without dying. I didn't want to use Latios / Latias because Hydreigon was the super star, so my main answer to the threat was to keep the momentum; never, never and NEVER let Lando set up, otherwise it was game. Usually, if Lando managed to get a free switch in against something like Tyranitar, I had no other choice apart from attacking because, if my opponent predicted the switch, I was dead; sometimes they tried to RP and ended up losing Landorus against Stone Edge from Banded T-tar, but, in other cases, they just went for the Focus Blast / Earth Power.
Now, my secondary plan (if they managed to set up) was to Life Orb stall it (which is pretty hard) until they had something like 30% HP (obviously with some prior damage) and then hit it with a +0 Fighting Gem-boosted Mach Punch doing 27% minimum :[ Pathetic, I know, it was a f*****g nightmare.
Suddenly I got bored of that team, and when I get bored of a team I can't win, so Stoned gave me his rain team with Torn-T (we play on PO usually): Politoed, Keldeo, Dragonite, Tornadus-T, Jirachi and Donphan. Actually, we had 0 counters to Landorus, but we had a powerful check called priority.
It didn't matter if he sets up or not, he doesn't kill Torn with HP ice and the combination of Ice Shard from Donphan and Extremespeed from Banded Dnite was my main way to deal with him. I have never had problems with this guy while using this team and I was not carrying Celebi, Gyrados, Latias, Jellicent, etc.
Adding more info tomorrow.
LilOuOn, this is a verbal warning. "It's not good in Ubers" is a worthless argument because it has nothing to do with Landorus-I in OU. Because your post had some substance before that, I'm not going to delete it but keep that in mind as we continue this discussion: A pokemon's performance in Ubers plays ZERO bearing on whether it should be a suspect or not. Post more about your experiences vs Landorus-I and why you felt priority was effective (it seems like Landorus just switches out and comes in later to force you to switch out again, talk about how you prevent it from gaining these opportunities).
It's been a good discussion so far guys but a few posts are below the standard we want to set here. I ask that you take the time to consider your posts (this doesn't mean you need to write an essay, just make sure you're coherent). I think both sides have brought up good points though and I'll look to address arguments from the no suspect side later. Keep up the good work.
It's been a good discussion so far guys but a few posts are below the standard we want to set here. I ask that you take the time to consider your posts (this doesn't mean you need to write an essay, just make sure you're coherent). I think both sides have brought up good points though and I'll look to address arguments from the no suspect side later. Keep up the good work.
landorus is just at the top of the pile of a long list of strong attackers. you can prepare for it as much as you can keldeo, terrakion, volcarona or thundurus (notice how all these guys are gen v pkmns...)
i get the feeling some people are campaigning for a metagame where defensive sand is by far and away the best strategy and in my opinion it is probably the easiest strategy to use and safest in the long term already, and recent bans have only assisted this...
maybe its just 'trendy' but that classic team of celebi / forretress / landorus-dog / tyranitar / rotom-w / heatran (popularised by bkc i believe...) is very easy to use and can be hard to break down. you can alternate jellicent and latias in as your secondary water resists and add a hippowdon or starmie where possible. this type of team is strong enough already and u-turn landorus is one of the only things that is going to reliably threaten it.
i think i was lucky enough to witness gr8astard's last four games. moet and destinyunknown for all intents and purposes used the exact same team (that sand balance) vs him and mcmeghan used something similar in one of the games. i used some weird teams which i now look back on that were pretty flawed but thats irrelevant....
man have i gone off topic. my point is that the sand build above is extremely solid and landorus is actually one of the only things that threatens it almost all the time. i think after tornadus-t's removal, landorus was elevated to the top of the strongs which is why it is a scapegoat for suspect (as is the case with every 'best' pokemon). landorus is most comparable to keldeo in my opinion as both are almost unstoppable as sweepers with cbtar's assistance. as 'attackers' at times they wont even need tyranitar as they can use unconventional moves to break through their counters. banning one would make a case for banning the other, and as we have seen, keldeo was strongly voted ou earlier.
this post is basically a poorly thought out yarn but nice work on showing some initiative kd24...
i get the feeling some people are campaigning for a metagame where defensive sand is by far and away the best strategy and in my opinion it is probably the easiest strategy to use and safest in the long term already, and recent bans have only assisted this...
maybe its just 'trendy' but that classic team of celebi / forretress / landorus-dog / tyranitar / rotom-w / heatran (popularised by bkc i believe...) is very easy to use and can be hard to break down. you can alternate jellicent and latias in as your secondary water resists and add a hippowdon or starmie where possible. this type of team is strong enough already and u-turn landorus is one of the only things that is going to reliably threaten it.
i think i was lucky enough to witness gr8astard's last four games. moet and destinyunknown for all intents and purposes used the exact same team (that sand balance) vs him and mcmeghan used something similar in one of the games. i used some weird teams which i now look back on that were pretty flawed but thats irrelevant....
man have i gone off topic. my point is that the sand build above is extremely solid and landorus is actually one of the only things that threatens it almost all the time. i think after tornadus-t's removal, landorus was elevated to the top of the strongs which is why it is a scapegoat for suspect (as is the case with every 'best' pokemon). landorus is most comparable to keldeo in my opinion as both are almost unstoppable as sweepers with cbtar's assistance. as 'attackers' at times they wont even need tyranitar as they can use unconventional moves to break through their counters. banning one would make a case for banning the other, and as we have seen, keldeo was strongly voted ou earlier.
this post is basically a poorly thought out yarn but nice work on showing some initiative kd24...
Landorus doesn't only threaten defensive sand teams, it also threatens every kind of playstyles. What can do a Rain Stall against it ? Chansey is maybe the only thing that can handle it quite well but paired with a Trick user or with Tyranitar, I don't see how a Rain Stall could check it. After a Rock Polish it can wreck an entire Rain Offense since Thundurus-T is OHKO'd after Stealth Rock. Gyarados is maybe the only thing that check it quite well. I'm not considering Latias and Latios as good counters since they're 2HKO'd by HP Ice / U-Turn and easily killable by Tyranitar. Same goes with Sand Offense.
I do agree that Landorus gets more issues to set up / sweep against an offensive team since people are prepared for it and don't let it set up etc but still... Stalls have a hard time handling it when it's the standard special sweeper, but they absolutely CAN'T do anything against CMLandorus. Landorus is probably the reason why Stall is almost never used. I don't know if I want it Uber, but testing it might be interesting.
I do agree that Landorus gets more issues to set up / sweep against an offensive team since people are prepared for it and don't let it set up etc but still... Stalls have a hard time handling it when it's the standard special sweeper, but they absolutely CAN'T do anything against CMLandorus. Landorus is probably the reason why Stall is almost never used. I don't know if I want it Uber, but testing it might be interesting.
Well you can take out sand stall in a lot of ways besides Landorus, there are even other big paper weaks as well like Alakazam. Landorus-T has no recovery so you can batter that down to the point where a Garchomp or something could set up on Forretress and win [I've never seen BKCs team so I apologize if he has more shit to deal with chomper like a scarfed poke]. The thing is that Landorus just does this shit with such little effort, it really comes down to making like 1 or 2 correct predictions with U-Turn. I really don't consider that Sand Stall build dominant at all this gen, with or without Landorus in the meta, not in the same vein that Rain Stall was dominant in BW1 where it reliably beat a huge portion of the metagame and it really came down to playing well more than relying on paper weaks to beat it. I just think Landorus is extremely poor for the metagame not only because of its ability it has to crush a lot of stall and balance [potent vs offense too] but also because of the fact that it restricts their teambuilding to like 3/4 mons [Celebi, Latias, Blissey/Chansey, SpDef Zapdos] and it just ends up beating all of them anyways w/ CB Tar.
uhh this kinda screams broken
Gr8astard said:
uhh this kinda screams broken
Not counting Latias as a counter because CBtar wrecks it is a stupid arguement. That's like saying Skarmory doesn't counter Scizor because it's often paired up with Rotom-W. However, I do agree that Landorus-I should be tested. Landorus-I is one of the main Pokemon you think about when building a team, and you need to at least carry 2 solid checks to it, otherwise you simply will be swept by this monster.
The scariest thing about Landorus-I is it's so unpredictable. I know most Landorus-I are SF, but that's what makes the physical sets even more threatening, since both the sets have completely different counters. Celebi is considered the best check to SF Landorus-I, but it's easily OHKO'd by the physical set. Obviously now you know what set this Landorus-I is, but the fact is you've just lost a Pokemon that was there in the first place to deal with Landorus-I.
I don't see why people don't want to see it being tested. Testing it doesn't mean auto-banned, it just means that the majority of good players get to decide on whether or not Landorus-I is broken, which I think is the fairest and best decision.
I'm not sure if I stayed on topic, but I hope I had some useful points. Cool thread kd24.
Landorus is definitely one of the top threats in today's metagame. While physical variants are powerful in its own right, its two most popular variants, the U-turn and Rock Polish sets, are incredibly useful and can seamlessly fit to any teams, and I'm sure anyone who plays OU is familiar with its damage output. What makes Landorus so hard to handle is finding a counter to it. As people mentioned, the RP set has plenty of checks/counters such as Latias, Celebi, Gyarados, and Zapdos. However, the U-turn set virtually has no counters. The fact that its checks/counters that are not bug/dark-weak are usually rock-weak does not help either.
However, I don't think Landorus should be suspect. It is extremely powerful no doubt, and it has the power to break stall alone, however there are a plethora of checks to it such as faster pokemon with powerful/SE special attacks (Lati@s, Keldeo, even pokemon like HP Ice Virizion), priorities (Mamoswine, Weavile, Azumarill, Feraligatr ??), or pokemon that takes little damage from its common moves (Zapdos, Gyarados, Chansey... although they can still run SF boosted rock slide). Sure, if it gets a RP up it can bypass the weakened special attackers, however it is your job as a teambuilder to save your check or not let it set up for free.
As Heist pointed out, Landorus is simply at the top of the pile of strong attackers in today's metagame, and while it is natural to question whether it is suspect-worthy, I don’t think suspecting/banning it will necessarily improve the state of the metagame--it just means that there are less threats (and options) to consider while teambuilding.
Sand stall/balance is already popular as it is, because it is one of those playstyles that matches up decently vs everything and I've often used it myself. Landorus is one of the few things that can really threaten it, therefore if it’s gone this particular playstyle will be more dominant. Obviously there are other pokemon that can threaten sand stall, but I daresay Landorus is at the top of the list. I’m also not sure if I want to give up the one sweeper that can absolutely demolish drought teams without being trapped by Dugtrio, given how incredibly threatening sun teams can be (thank god ninetales is a piece of shit, but I digress).
Also as a side note, it is interesting to see Keldeo being mentioned as one of the other top threats in OU. Aside from it having an excellent defensive synergy with Landorus, the two of them can function very well in terms of sweeping capability. An upwards trend in the metagame is pairing an expert belt HP bug Keldeo with RP Landorus, or a choice scarf Keldeo with U-turn Landorus, each providing a lure for the other to sweep. Pair them with a Tyranitar and you're good to go.
However, I don't think Landorus should be suspect. It is extremely powerful no doubt, and it has the power to break stall alone, however there are a plethora of checks to it such as faster pokemon with powerful/SE special attacks (Lati@s, Keldeo, even pokemon like HP Ice Virizion), priorities (Mamoswine, Weavile, Azumarill, Feraligatr ??), or pokemon that takes little damage from its common moves (Zapdos, Gyarados, Chansey... although they can still run SF boosted rock slide). Sure, if it gets a RP up it can bypass the weakened special attackers, however it is your job as a teambuilder to save your check or not let it set up for free.
As Heist pointed out, Landorus is simply at the top of the pile of strong attackers in today's metagame, and while it is natural to question whether it is suspect-worthy, I don’t think suspecting/banning it will necessarily improve the state of the metagame--it just means that there are less threats (and options) to consider while teambuilding.
Sand stall/balance is already popular as it is, because it is one of those playstyles that matches up decently vs everything and I've often used it myself. Landorus is one of the few things that can really threaten it, therefore if it’s gone this particular playstyle will be more dominant. Obviously there are other pokemon that can threaten sand stall, but I daresay Landorus is at the top of the list. I’m also not sure if I want to give up the one sweeper that can absolutely demolish drought teams without being trapped by Dugtrio, given how incredibly threatening sun teams can be (thank god ninetales is a piece of shit, but I digress).
Also as a side note, it is interesting to see Keldeo being mentioned as one of the other top threats in OU. Aside from it having an excellent defensive synergy with Landorus, the two of them can function very well in terms of sweeping capability. An upwards trend in the metagame is pairing an expert belt HP bug Keldeo with RP Landorus, or a choice scarf Keldeo with U-turn Landorus, each providing a lure for the other to sweep. Pair them with a Tyranitar and you're good to go.
Because Rotom-W has something to trap Skarmory ? Correct me if I'm wrong but CBTar and ScarfTar have Pursuit and kill Latias ?
I also have problems in creating teams that won't get swept by Landorus-I (the Sheer Force set specifically). For example, I like using offensive Celebi sets, but they can't handle Landorus-I nearly as well, as they are 2HKOed by HP Ice. They must be healthy and; 1) Pack HP Ice themselves 2) Pack Leaf Storm 3) Pack a NP Boost and Giga Drain (this is all to quickly get rid of Landorus). At least they can deal better with Tyranitar. My solution to this was simply to pack Pokémon that wouldn't be OHKOed by Sheer Force Landorus when healthy. An example of this is Keldeo, which fails to be OHKOed by Sheer Force-boosted Earth Power and can OHKO Back with a Water-type move or Hidden Power Ice/Icy Wind. Sadly, it leaves Keldeo with so low health that it is OHKOed by sandstorm damage. Keldeo must also be literally healthy (this means, no Stealth Rock damage) to survive that Earth Power blow. Oh, and speaking of which, this is a testament to how powerful Sheer Force Landorus is; it is one of the very few Pokémon that doesn't need a boost to sweep (I am speaking of an offensive boost instead of a speed boost).
While all this is true, one of the worst things you can do is rely on a Focus Blast miss to check the opponent. Despite Focus Blast's fame of being an unreliable move, very prone to miss, on all my battles, Focus Blast never missed on the moment that I really needed it to; I lost many battles because of this.
Murphy's law: Focus Blast will always miss when you use, Focus Blast will never miss when your opponent use.
Gyarados is actually the only true counter to the standard Rock Polish + Earth Power/Focus Blast/HP Ice set, especially if it has defensive investiment. It isn't even 2HKOed by any attack that Landorus packs and will be OHKOed or 2HKOed back by Waterfall. However, Gyarados not only lacks reliable recovery, it is weak to Stealth Rock damage and is 2HKOed by Psychic or Sludge Wave. Gyarados is also not weak to Pursuit and U-Turn. At first, Gyarados (especially the RestTalk set) seems like a good fit on rain stall teams to prevent them from being murdered by Landorus. However, the sad and though reality is that Gyarados is very hard to fit on them without it compounding weakness to Electric-type attacks. Speaking of which, it is especially hard to fit good checks to Landorus-I on teams, without them becoming 1) either unable to handle another important threat on the metagame 2) or unable to check another important threat on the metagame.
the argument is still valid
You forgot lefties are taken into account :P
There are a couple more things I wanted to give my thoughts on. Since me and BKC are probably the main people being referred to as guys who want Sand Stall to be stronger through bans, with me being one of them, I think I can safely say for most of that crowd that we only use Sand Stall because we're lazy. By that I mean we're sick of the inconsistency of Rain and Sun and the metagame in general, so as natural stallers we just throw Sand on to avoid wasting too much thought time if we get dragged into playing OU. If we're lucky and face another sand team we also run a chance of playing a decent game of pokemon.
As for what I've heard about Sand Stall itself, if you're saying it's bad for the metagame because it matches up decently against everything or that it's overpowering, I think you're playing the wrong game and / or just wrong. A) Matching up decently against everything is supposed to happen with more popular styles than not, I don't know why anyone would debate that, and B) There's plenty of pokemon like Hydreigon / Haxorus / Thundurus / Salamence / Terrakion / LO Taunt Tran / Physical mons paired with Rotom-W or Mag / GATR / Dragonite / Taunt Gyara / etc. off the top of my head that are good now and have few problem punching holes in any Sand Stall.
One thing I really want to highlight is that when you subtract things like Landorus that don't even need to choose whether they want to wallbreak or sweep, people eventually need to start using dedicated wallbreakers again.
It's fine if you don't think Landorus's special set is unfairly hard to beat but if one of the above is your reason I just can't understand where you're coming from. I get a vibe that making a lot of bans in BW is "hopeless and pointless" but if I'm on target with my thought that's directly against Smogon policy.
Edit- I should clear up that what I mean relating to policy is that when an individual pokemon dropped in the metagame warps it more than you feel it should, you don't keep it around because there's another one or because it might make a playstyle stronger.
Hoestly, this to me is the biggest reason that Landorus-I is being considered. The whole "unpredictability" factor of the OP is now completely thrown out the window if our simulators were 100% up to par with the games. This argument extends to Raikou as well, since shinyness is currently NOT a requirement on the Rash Aura Sphere event Raikou, leaving us wondering if the normal Raikou in front of us has that move. The fact we're skipping a part of the game made to ensure overall legality and prediction by Gamefreak is a rather big aspect. Ball and Shinyness data is huge. Raikou and Landorus-I are examples. However, there's also the aspect of Egg move compatibility. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have a specific egg move you had to breed onto something, that Pokemon has to be coming out of a Poke Ball since that's what hatched Pokemon go into every time. If Ferrothorn comes out of anything else than a Poke Ball, for example, it does NOT have the ability to have Leech Seed, meaning it may be a Choice Band set instead of standard and changing your switch-in or move entirely. Just an example I could think of quickly.
I asked the Showdown people about it, and Zarel said that the ball thing is currently planned to be implemented at some point (he said nothing about the shiny thing though). So personally, I don't think that Landorus-I should quite make it to being a full on suspect until this ball issue is fixed and we can properly predict things around it.
Dark Fallen Angel, please don't start posting your useless pictures and try to post smart posts. I'm talking about the fact that Tyranitar gets a move that kills both Latias and Latios. Landorus-I 2HKOs Lati@s either with HP Ice or U-Turn so I'm obviously not considering something that gets 2HKO'd as a counter, sorry. In addition, Landorus-I is almost always paired with Tyranitar that gets a Stab'd trappable Move known as Pursuit and kills Lati@s.
Landorus vs X. You switch out to Lati@s and it U-Turns and then sends in Tyranitar => pursuit, gg. You didn't even make one move, great counter indeed.
I don't even see why you're talking about Magnezone when we're talking about Rotom-W. I'm sorry but Rotom-W doesn't have a move that traps Skarmory so yah, invalid argument.
To end this useless debate with Scizor + Rotom-W to beat Skarmory. Did you think about Stealth Rock ? Scizor loses 12% on Stealth Rock each time it comes on the field. Skarmory only loses 10% max, so 4% with Leftovers. 16% max with Stealth Rock up and it gets Roost. Definitely a stupid argument.
Landorus vs X. You switch out to Lati@s and it U-Turns and then sends in Tyranitar => pursuit, gg. You didn't even make one move, great counter indeed.
I don't even see why you're talking about Magnezone when we're talking about Rotom-W. I'm sorry but Rotom-W doesn't have a move that traps Skarmory so yah, invalid argument.
To end this useless debate with Scizor + Rotom-W to beat Skarmory. Did you think about Stealth Rock ? Scizor loses 12% on Stealth Rock each time it comes on the field. Skarmory only loses 10% max, so 4% with Leftovers. 16% max with Stealth Rock up and it gets Roost. Definitely a stupid argument.
What I was trying to say is that if the problem is because Rotom-W can't trap Skarmory, then just use Magnezone (or Gothitelle) instead (as it packs Magnet Pull).
Therefore, the argument that "Latias is not a counter to Landorus-I because it is vulnerable to Tyranitar" is still invalid. When talking about checks and counters, my opinion is that partners can be discussed, but they shouldn't be relevant in making X pokémon not counter to Y. For example, just because Heatran is vulnerable to Dugtrio, this does not mean that it cannot counter sun teams (or that it couldn't counter Genesect at the time it wasn't banned).
Also, if you aren't using Tyranitar (or Scizor), not that anyone would do this, but does that still make Latias not a counter to Landorus?
Heatran cannot counter suns because of Dugtrio, yes. How many defensive sands are weak to suns because their only answer to suns is Heatran (that is easily trappable by Dugtrio) ?
Anyway this is not the right place to talk about this, Landorus-I with U-Turn has, as gr8 said it, no real counters.
Anyway this is not the right place to talk about this, Landorus-I with U-Turn has, as gr8 said it, no real counters.
I'm sure there have been posts which are better than mine, but I would just like to share my thoughts on this. Landorus-I is a huge threat, one of few Pokemons which you'll need to consider a counter while making your team, it also has Sheer Force, one of the best ability, giving you Life Orb damage output without any recoil, on top of that, it can run both Physical or Special set, its Speed it good too, has good coverage move with Physical moves like Earthquake, Stone Edge and U-Turn, and for Special moves like Focus Blast, Earth Power and Psychic. Last but not the least, it has access to Rock Polish, which can in a second turn itself into a deadly sweeper.
However no matter how many positive is to Landorus, its not without flaws. It has that common type weakness Water and a 4x to Ice (Shard). These weaknesses, with having mediocre defenses at best, doesn't allow it to easily set up Swords Dances or Rock Polish. Also, Landorus' speed, 101, while good, isn't good enough to sweep, and easily can be killed by common Revenge Killers such as Alakazam. However paring it up with a Water/Steel type can be a deadly pair up.
While talking about flaws, once the set is revealed, its actually easy to counter it. If its a Physical variant, Hippodown threaten it with Ice Fang, Intimidate users like its counter part Landorus-T can come in, Salamance can come in and force it to switch out. Special set can be countered too easily by Blissey, who can stall out with Toxic/Softboiled or destroy with Ice Beam if it has, Defensive Gastrodon too is a good counter for it. Though in my opinion, the Rock Polish set is the most difficult to counter, once its on +2. Only Alakazam can do the job, or an Ice Shard user, but who uses Ice Shard anyways?
Overall, I don't think its worth suspecting it, it has good amount of flaws for it to not go into Ubers.
However no matter how many positive is to Landorus, its not without flaws. It has that common type weakness Water and a 4x to Ice (Shard). These weaknesses, with having mediocre defenses at best, doesn't allow it to easily set up Swords Dances or Rock Polish. Also, Landorus' speed, 101, while good, isn't good enough to sweep, and easily can be killed by common Revenge Killers such as Alakazam. However paring it up with a Water/Steel type can be a deadly pair up.
While talking about flaws, once the set is revealed, its actually easy to counter it. If its a Physical variant, Hippodown threaten it with Ice Fang, Intimidate users like its counter part Landorus-T can come in, Salamance can come in and force it to switch out. Special set can be countered too easily by Blissey, who can stall out with Toxic/Softboiled or destroy with Ice Beam if it has, Defensive Gastrodon too is a good counter for it. Though in my opinion, the Rock Polish set is the most difficult to counter, once its on +2. Only Alakazam can do the job, or an Ice Shard user, but who uses Ice Shard anyways?
Overall, I don't think its worth suspecting it, it has good amount of flaws for it to not go into Ubers.
Banning Landorus-I, I feel, brings up a issue we have been dealing with a long time: That is, there is no real good defined standard of power. Every time OU bans something, it simply goes after the next best thing. So far, I've seen little evidence that Landorus-I is this amazing gamebreaker, and the very fact that there is a solid lack of consensus should speak volumes about how 'broken' it really is.
In short, is Landorus-i one of the best if not the best pokemon in the metagame right now? Yes. But does that make it broken? No, as people have gone over before, it's not broken, simply the top threat. You have always had to prepare for the top threat in pokemon, hell you even have to prepare for lesser threats like Swords Dance Lucario who can also threaten to sweep an entire weakened team.
Also, U-turn isn't this magical, game-breaking force people seem to think it is. Landorus-i has a real bitch of a time swapping in, as others have already pointed out. If it's switching in, it's usually because it has you by the balls - if it goes for U-turn, it's sacrificing precious coverage, and taking additional LO recoil and hazards damage on top of having to swap in yet again. It also only resists one form of priority, and is quad weak to one source - strong priority can usually finish the job.
This is flawed thinking, at best. Dedicated wallbreakers are no longer a thing, and won't be a thing until you ban every single pokemon who can smash through walls with sheer power, which currently defines OU. Wallbreaking, walls, these concepts are somewhat obsolete now - you have glass cannons, and bulkymons. Sometimes, you will be able to fit a dedicated "wall" on your team, which will almost always be a steel type to stomach dragons. By the time we get to the point where dedicated wallbreakers are actually necessary, the Ubers banlist will be hilariously bloated.
In short, is Landorus-i one of the best if not the best pokemon in the metagame right now? Yes. But does that make it broken? No, as people have gone over before, it's not broken, simply the top threat. You have always had to prepare for the top threat in pokemon, hell you even have to prepare for lesser threats like Swords Dance Lucario who can also threaten to sweep an entire weakened team.
Also, U-turn isn't this magical, game-breaking force people seem to think it is. Landorus-i has a real bitch of a time swapping in, as others have already pointed out. If it's switching in, it's usually because it has you by the balls - if it goes for U-turn, it's sacrificing precious coverage, and taking additional LO recoil and hazards damage on top of having to swap in yet again. It also only resists one form of priority, and is quad weak to one source - strong priority can usually finish the job.
Finally
You see a Landorus on 7.5% of teams at best. It's hardly wrapping the metagame around itself. Sure, you have to have an answer for it, but it's hardly as if effective answers to Landorus are dead weight.Feburary Usage said:
Landorus is not even suspect material imo. If he goes for Rock Polish then it is hard walled by SpD Celebi, an amazing and very common Pokemon, which can't even be Pursuit trapped if it carries Baton Pass. There are also Latias, Gyarados (RestTalk Gyarados counters any special variant of Landorus btw), Latios, Gengar, Zapdos, Rotom-W, and Chansey, all of which are great checks or counters to it in general.
If he goes for U-turn then he can't really sweep and is really mediocre against offensive teams, where most Pokemon outspeed it and kill it and even some slower ones can KO it (Ice Shard). As many others have said forfeiting Rock Polish is not a small deal, as then one of Landorus's biggest selling points goes away, and you are left with another powerful, moderately fast attacker, and we have plenty of those. And there are still some Pokemon that can take on both variants of special landorus, and those are RestTalk Gyarados and bulky DD Gyarados to an extend, Chansey, SpD Bronzong, and Zapdos, which means that stall teams are not completely screwed by it.
Also let's not forget that two Focus Blast have a 49% chance of hitting twice which is a big deal. Landorus will fail to sweep in 3 out of 10 games due to a Focus Blast miss, which is a big difference when compared to other more reliable sweepers (Scizor, Keldeo, Garchomp, Volcarona, Lucario). It is true that U-turn special Landorus can give to defensive teams quite a big trouble, but so can Pokemon such as Hydreigon (which is very resilient as well, and has Roost to top it off) D-Tail Kyurem-B (his SR weakness is made up by its sheer bulk and acceess to reliable recovery) and MixMence.
If he goes for U-turn then he can't really sweep and is really mediocre against offensive teams, where most Pokemon outspeed it and kill it and even some slower ones can KO it (Ice Shard). As many others have said forfeiting Rock Polish is not a small deal, as then one of Landorus's biggest selling points goes away, and you are left with another powerful, moderately fast attacker, and we have plenty of those. And there are still some Pokemon that can take on both variants of special landorus, and those are RestTalk Gyarados and bulky DD Gyarados to an extend, Chansey, SpD Bronzong, and Zapdos, which means that stall teams are not completely screwed by it.
Also let's not forget that two Focus Blast have a 49% chance of hitting twice which is a big deal. Landorus will fail to sweep in 3 out of 10 games due to a Focus Blast miss, which is a big difference when compared to other more reliable sweepers (Scizor, Keldeo, Garchomp, Volcarona, Lucario). It is true that U-turn special Landorus can give to defensive teams quite a big trouble, but so can Pokemon such as Hydreigon (which is very resilient as well, and has Roost to top it off) D-Tail Kyurem-B (his SR weakness is made up by its sheer bulk and acceess to reliable recovery) and MixMence.
I see this Suspect being quite similar to the last one. Deoxys and Landorus each have their main sets that are the reason they are being Suspected, as well as less common other options that get around counters while sacrificing some of their original purpose. There are two main differences between the two Suspects: what the Suspect sacrifices in order to beat its counters, and the cost of failing to prevent the Suspect from accomplishing its goal.
For example, in order for Deoxys to get around Forretress, it must either give up Magic Coat, Stealth Rocks, Spikes, or Taunt. Losing any one of these options means that a much larger group of Pokemon can prevent Deoxys from setting up its hazards. The opportunity cost of HP Fire Deoxys is very high. Now, take Sand Force Landorus. What do you lose? The ability to beat Skarmory, and other physical walls. What do you gain? The ability to beat most of your previous counters. With Deoxys, you traded beating one threat for losing to many others. With Landorus, you basically trade beating dedicated Physical walls for beating dedicated Special walls. You still beat any non-dedicated counter.
So to try and make this a little less confusing:
Deoxys-Defense @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Calm Nature
- Magic Coat
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
Vs.
Deoxys-Defense @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 156 SDef / 252 HP / 100 SAtk
Calm Nature
- Magic Coat
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Hidden Power [Fire]
What you lose:
-Can not stop set up sweepers
-Must predict around with Magic Coat in order to stop Hazards being set on you
-A small amount of bulk
What you gain:
-You now beat a few previous counters
Now look at:
Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rock Polish
Vs.
Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
- U-turn
What you gain:
-You now beat Celebi and many other previous counters to Sheer Force Landorus
What you lose:
-You lose to Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Lando-T
So clearly, much like the late Deoxys-D, Landorus-I can beat all of its counters while giving up much less of its utility.
My second point is just what each Pokemon can accomplish should your counter to it fail for whatever reason. If the Celebi you need to beat Lando dies somehow, it's probably game over right there. If your Choice Band Tyranitar you were planning on beating Deoxys with gets Superpowered by Deo on turn 1, chances are Deoxys will just set up 2-3 layers of hazards, a much more manageable situation that a +2 Sheer Force Landorus.
I hope my heavy comparisons to another Pokemon do not violate the thread guidelines, however I think using the precedent of Deoxys-D is a necessary argument for the banning of Landorus-I.
For example, in order for Deoxys to get around Forretress, it must either give up Magic Coat, Stealth Rocks, Spikes, or Taunt. Losing any one of these options means that a much larger group of Pokemon can prevent Deoxys from setting up its hazards. The opportunity cost of HP Fire Deoxys is very high. Now, take Sand Force Landorus. What do you lose? The ability to beat Skarmory, and other physical walls. What do you gain? The ability to beat most of your previous counters. With Deoxys, you traded beating one threat for losing to many others. With Landorus, you basically trade beating dedicated Physical walls for beating dedicated Special walls. You still beat any non-dedicated counter.
So to try and make this a little less confusing:
Deoxys-Defense @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Calm Nature
- Magic Coat
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
Vs.
Deoxys-Defense @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 156 SDef / 252 HP / 100 SAtk
Calm Nature
- Magic Coat
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Hidden Power [Fire]
What you lose:
-Can not stop set up sweepers
-Must predict around with Magic Coat in order to stop Hazards being set on you
-A small amount of bulk
What you gain:
-You now beat a few previous counters
Now look at:
Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rock Polish
Vs.
Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
- U-turn
What you gain:
-You now beat Celebi and many other previous counters to Sheer Force Landorus
What you lose:
-You lose to Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Lando-T
So clearly, much like the late Deoxys-D, Landorus-I can beat all of its counters while giving up much less of its utility.
My second point is just what each Pokemon can accomplish should your counter to it fail for whatever reason. If the Celebi you need to beat Lando dies somehow, it's probably game over right there. If your Choice Band Tyranitar you were planning on beating Deoxys with gets Superpowered by Deo on turn 1, chances are Deoxys will just set up 2-3 layers of hazards, a much more manageable situation that a +2 Sheer Force Landorus.
I hope my heavy comparisons to another Pokemon do not violate the thread guidelines, however I think using the precedent of Deoxys-D is a necessary argument for the banning of Landorus-I.
If you look at suspect stats (which is a much more accurate representation of serious game), he's in 16% of team, at 11th place. Not the most used, but for sure not a "not so used mon" we can neglict.
For the rest of the subject, I admitt that I have no idea to say something really interesting about this mon. I play the physical variant on my latest team (the e-belt variant in fact, really powerful and surprising, though maybe without as much raw power, even if in sand, with EQ...) and if it is a key member of my team, he can be useless in some matchs, or to be fair, the one that I have to let die to succeed. Also note that a lot, really a lot of people seems to not expect HP Ice when they had discover the physical variant... Bye Lando-T.
About the special variant, which seems to be the more feared, and which I feared myself with my previous team, it's raw power is a real issue. I often had to sacrifice a member of my team to place my Keldeo or my Latios.
From what I've seen, stacking priority is one of the safest way to handle it, since he will not like take 2 ES or 1 ES + 1 BP in a raw.
IMO, he's suspect worthy though.
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