Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]

[FrostFire]

Yeah, just realised that Ice punch only does 50-58.85% to Zappy, which won't even KO after SR. Of course, Metagross does have Earthquake, so if Zapdos tries to roost, then it'll get KOd - but then it just becomes russian roulette between whether Zapdos is going to Heat Wave/ Roost, and whether Metagross chooses to EQ/ Ice punch. On the flip side, Ice punch would hit Lati@s harder, albeit at the expense of not being able to trap them.

The other alternative is to pump some more attack EVs into Meta and see what happens. I'll go have a play around with some calcs.

EDIT: Ok, so shuffling EVs around isn't really doing anything. I've just now started looking in to the Choice Band set, which is looking much more promising. Something like:

Metagross @Choice Band
Clear Body
Adamant - 252HP/ 252 Atk/ 4 Def

-Meteor Mash
-Bullet Punch
-Hammer Arm
-Zen Headbutt

I'm not even sure Ice punch is needed here; Zen Headbutt cleanly OHKOs Terrakion, and has a 31.25% chance to OHKO Zapdos after Stealth Rock. Likewise, Metagross only takes 26.64-31.31% from Stone Edge, meaning that it'll only get 3-4HKOd, as well as then giving Meta a free opportunity to launch a powerful attack in return (thus giving team 2 some pause before clicking Stone Edge/ X Scissor for Slowbro). Bullet Punch is nice too, as it gives team one some pretty powerful STAB priority, while Hammer arm rounds off coverage against the likes of Ferrothorn and friends.

 

[futuresuperstar]

Is Zen Headbutt really necessary there? Meteor Mash cleanly OHKOs Terrakion as well, and Ice Punch might be nice to kill a dragon locked into Outrage. But I suppose the power against Zapdos without worry about Roost is nice.

 

[FrostFire]

Is Zen Headbutt really necessary there? Meteor Mash cleanly OHKOs Terrakion as well, and Ice Punch might be nice to kill a dragon locked into Outrage. But I suppose the power against Zapdos without worry about Roost is nice.

There are quite a few attacks that Metagross would like in that slot, so it is a bit of a toss up. Zen Headbutt is Meta's best option against bulky waters like Rotom-W and Jellicent, as well as a few other things that resist Meteor Mash (Thundurus-T comes to mind - MM won't KO after SR, but ZH will). On the other hand, you could use Pursuit (for trapping Latis, Celebi, maybe Gengar), Thunderpunch can nail bulky waters that are weak to it + Skarmory. Ice Punch hits Zapdos and outrage locked dragons, and finally (while not as good as it once was) Choice Band Explosion is an option as well.

(those options will probably all refer to the last slot - I feel Metagross needs Meteor Mash/ Bullet Punch/ Hammer Arm. So, it would be a question of Zen Headbutt/ Pursuit/ Ice Punch/ Explosion. I think.)

EDIT: 252+Atk Choice Band Ice Punch V. Zapdos: 82.29-97.39%
Not quite an OHKO, but it sure will be after Stealth Rock.

 

[MMII]

Ah, you know what we forgot about? A switch-in to Zapdos. Neither Lando nor Slowbro is ever going to want to come on the bird so that leaves another mon that we have yet to counter. (Am I advertising my Swampert set? Yes, I am.)

 

[ginganinja]

Couldn't we potentially use AgiliGross instead of CB?

It just seems a slightly better option considering I think Team 2 could easily exploit a locked Ice Punch for anything they really liked.

 

[G-Von]

This isn't accurate, as calculations show:

Hide

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 359-422 (91.34 - 107.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 412-486 (104.83 - 123.66%) -- guaranteed OHKO


252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 320-376 (81.42 - 95.67%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Alright, fair enough. However, the beauty of the core is that Amoonguss can switch in with SR and take the hit and then switch out to Slowbro to recover health and put pressure on Latios to switch out. Also, after being at -2, anything that isn't a dragon can switch in. Chances are, Lati@as will have Psyshock but will almost always opt for DM because it is really that big of a nuke. If it's specs, it pretty much has to switch out, but if it's LO, Slowbro can come in and threaten to paralyze one of the Lati's.

Ah, you know what we forgot about? A switch-in to Zapdos. Neither Lando nor Slowbro is ever going to want to come on the bird so that leaves another mon that we have yet to counter. (Am I advertising my Swampert set? Yes, I am.)

0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Amoonguss: 146-174 (33.79 - 40.27%) 39.06% chance to 3HKO

Just sayin' thats a Zapdos switch in. It can then either put it to sleep, or if it already has done that, Guss can toxic it.

 

[TyranitarAbuser]

G-Von, Zapdos cannot be toxic if it is already asleep. Melee Mewtwo's Swampert looks good right now as it can switch in on Zapdos without worries.

 

[LilOu]

Ttarabuser, Gvon meant that if Amoonguss already put something to sleep, it can toxic Zapdos.

 

[alexwolf]

Ah, you know what we forgot about? A switch-in to Zapdos. Neither Lando nor Slowbro is ever going to want to come on the bird so that leaves another mon that we have yet to counter. (Am I advertising my Swampert set? Yes, I am.)

Actually Slowbro beats Zapdos 1 v 1, as if Zapdos needs to switch out in order to hurt Slowbro (Volt Switch), and it still doesn't deal too much damage (55.47 - 66.15%) which can be mostly recovered with Regenerator or by using Slack Off the turn that Zapdos uses Volt Switch. As long as Team 1 has SR up and Zapdos is burned, Slowbro can outstall Zapdos unless Zapdos spams Volt Switch all the time.

As for Swampert, while it is a cool idea that checks well both Pokemon on team 2, my problem is that it gets 3HKOed by Terrakion's SE or X-Scissor, meaning it can only switch in once, while also being horrifically slow for an offensive Pokemon. Swampert will also need good prediction in order to deal real damage (EQ obviously needs prediction, Water resists are many and easy to fit, and the coverage moves are not strong when not hitting for super effective damage), while Terrakion can just spam Stone Edge and put Swampert into 2HKO range the next time it comes in. It's also not the strongest CBer around, meaning that after it kills something it will be pretty easy to get set-up on.

CB Metagross is pretty bad, i think we already learned this by the past CtP projects, and the only thing it will do is restrict our choices later.

If we really want to use an offensive Pokemon, offensive Garchomp (mainly CB) and offensive Jirachi are definitely the best choices, as they are pretty difficult to wall or can maintain momentum (U-turn + 3 attacks Jirachi for example). Maybe for Jirachi, a set of Iron Head / Hidden Power Fire / U-turn / filler move with Leftovers / Expert Belt and EVs spread to Atk, SpA, and Spe? Hidden Power Fire > Fire Punch to get past most Steel-types (Skarmory, Ferro, Forre), leaving us the last slot with another coverage move instead of Thunderbolt.

Btw, if anyone wants to nominate the Garchomp set i posted he is free to do so, as this is the main reason i posted it anyway.

 

[Blizzard]

Swampert could be used to switch in on zapdos, but then landorus, slwbro, swampert are quite weak to grass type moves. Scarfed pokemon like celebi, mow-rotom can spam leaf storm that KOs all the three. While this can be reduced by using grass resists,surely we do not want three pokemon weak to grass types? Both celebi and mow-rotom are pretty good team mates for terrakion and zapdos, and they can also use hp ice to dispose of the dragons. Rotom, in particular can utilize a STAB volt-switch to get away from dragons. Celebi can use a less stronger u-turn or baton pass and the presence of terrakion can dissuade the opponent from using pursuit. These are just my thoughts on why swampert coulld become a liabilty.

 

[G-Von]

Ttarabuser, Gvon meant that if Amoonguss already put something to sleep, it can toxic Zapdos.

Exactly.

Don't get me wrong though, I am a fan of swampert and think it isn't a bad choice and put it up there with the picks i already said i like. The thing is, Celebi would become a big nuisance.

Edit: ninja'd by pkblizzard

 

[MMII]

As for Swampert, while it is a cool idea that checks well both Pokemon on team 2, my problem is that it gets 3HKOed by Terrakion's SE or X-Scissor, meaning it can only switch in once, while also being horrifically slow for an offensive Pokemon.

If we really want to use an offensive Pokemon, offensive Garchomp (mainly CB)

At the same time, Stone Edge only has 8 PP has 80% accuracy so a 3HKO is acceptable when Slowbro is our go to switch-in and Pert just the follow up in case of Stone Edge. (Plus, even Garchomp is outsped and 3HKO'd by Stone Edg. At least Pert has Torrent and the ability to take advantage of Zapdos as well. :P)

I disagree with CB Garchomp unless it has Fire Blast to roast Skarmory. Honestly, the SD Yache set posted earlier is my favorite as it lets Chomp stay flexible and threatening.

I'm still not sure about Stone Edge vs Ice Punch. Beating down Celebi and other grass types (yuck, Tangrowth, yuck) switch-ins are pretty appealing but Stone Edge hits Gdos. (Mind you a 3HKO plus SR weak plus Slowbro plus no recovery makes it kinda a non-issue)

 

[alexwolf]

At the same time, Stone Edge only has 8 PP has 80% accuracy so a 3HKO is acceptable when Slowbro is our go to switch-in and Pert just the follow up in case of Stone Edge. (Plus, even Garchomp is outsped and 3HKO'd by Stone Edg. At least Pert has Torrent and the ability to take advantage of Zapdos as well. :P)

I never really supported offensive Garchomp, i just said that it's one of the best offensive options. The Garchomps set i posted can take more than 3 Stone Edges for example.

And btw Ice Punch is a bit more useful i think as Celebi is a very real threat to team 1 if we go for Swampert, and it otherwise completely walls Swampert. On the other hand, we can somehow check Gyaratos atm with Zapdos (which can take a +1 Waterfall without SR up and OHKO back), so Celebi looks as the biggest threat.

Tbh, i am not against your Swampert set, as it is a much better option that Metagross and other generally very easy to take advantage of Pokemon (Amoonguss and Nido), but i don't particularly like a CB user with such a pitiful Speed stat that isn't particularly strong too. It could end up being useful and doing what we want it to do in the team, i just feel that there are better options.

 

[Blizzard]

Talking about the good choice, how does scarf heracross sound? Slowbro takes care of heatwave and terrak' stone edge, while threatening zapdos with stone edge, terrakion with CC, grass types with megahorn. A heracross set was posted earlier ( Melee?) And i think it would be good to introduce it now.

 

[relaunched]

Talking about the good choice, how does scarf heracross sound? Slowbro takes care of heatwave and terrak' stone edge, while threatening zapdos with stone edge, terrakion with CC, grass types with megahorn. A heracross set was posted earlier ( Melee?) And i think it would be good to introduce it now.

Heracross leaves us with no good Rock switch in (Stone Edge 2HKOes Slowbro) and nothing that really likes dealing with Zapdos either, so it won't work well right now.

Just sayin' thats a Zapdos switch in. It can then either put it to sleep, or if it already has done that, Guss can toxic it.

Problem is, while Amoonguss is a good Zapdos switch-in, it can't do shit to Terrakion and our Regenerator core doesn't work because both Amoonguss and Slowbro take way too much from Stone Edge, even with maximum physical defense, in which case, well, Amoonguss stops even being a good Zapdos switch-in.

I'm just going to go ahead and nominate Choice Band Garchomp, as there's been some talk of it. This would make it the third Garchomp nomination (lol).

Garchomp @ Choice Band
Trait: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang
- Dragon Claw

Choice Band Garchomp hits incredibly hard and, like Team 2's Terrakion, has no one great counterpick. Outrage and Earthquake are obvious choices, while Fire Blast is chosen over Stone Edge to threaten Skarmory. While this leaves us more vulnerable to Gyarados, -1 Outrage still 2HKOs even the bulkiest Gyarados after Stealth Rock, making Fire Blast look like the clear choice. Between Dual Chop and Dragon Claw, I chose Dragon Claw. This was a difficult choice, as Dual Chop provides some extra utility against Substitute users, Dragonite, and Focus Sash mons, while Dragon Claw's extra accuracy is useful. I thought Dragon Claw was a better choice because of our ability to ameliorate the effects of possible later Team 2 Substitute picks by counterpicking and Dragon Claw's better accuracy (a 19% chance to lose a game in the case of 1/2 Dual Chop misses seemed too annoying to ignore). The EVs seem straightforward, and the Naive Nature gives more power to Fire Blast while taking away Garchomp's less useful defensive stat. It doesn't give us any notable hits on specific targets though, so Jolly is also an option.

If there's support for Dual Chop and/or Jolly over Dragon Claw/Naive, respectively, I'd be happy to change that. Also give a heads up if for some reason it's important to move the 4 extra EVs from SpA to HP. Pretty much everything else is set in stone though.

EDIT: Changed Garchomp's spread in light of blitzlefan's comments below.

 

[blitzlefan]

Just one question about CB Garchomp. Which is better, Fire Blast or Fire Fang? Seeing as you have a Attack-boosting item, it may be better to use a physical move. It really depends on the opposing Skarmory's EV spread though, so either move is good I suppose.

For OU Physically Defensive Skarmory:
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 124-146 (37.12 - 43.71%) -- 99.95% chance to 3HKO

4- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 174-206 (52.09 - 61.67%) -- 97.66% chance to 2HKO

For OU Specially Defensive Skarmory:
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 158-188 (47.3 - 56.28%) -- 30.47% chance to 2HKO

4- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Skarmory: 120-142 (35.92 - 42.51%) -- 96.07% chance to 3HKO

 

[Homeslice]

Conkeldurr sticks out as the best to me right now. TGMD's set is fantastic. Conkeldurr is one of the bulkiest fighting types viable in OU, it doesn't get much better after you include in his 145 base Attack. Even his speed is easily fixed by Mach Punch and the combination of his bulk and drain punch. Nice rock resist, not threatened by Zapdos, and has the bulk and recovery to switch in a few times. A nice tank gives us the resists and bulk we need while still having the offensive presence we want.

 

[relaunched]

Thanks for pointing this out, blitzlefan. I like Fire Fang a lot more than Fire Blast a lot more currently. Here's why:

-- Sp. Def Skarm threatens our team a lot more than Def. Skarm at the moment, especially since Slowbro's Flamethrower can't even 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Dissuading the more dangerous pick is a good idea.
-- Fire Fang also does more in general, all other things being equal.

I'm going to tentatively change Garchomp's spread to a Fire Fang one for now, though again, objections are welcomed.

 

[TGMD]

I think that Swampert, Conkeldurr (obviously no bias here), and Garchomp are our best options thus far. They all provide the bulk and rock resist needed to stop Terrakion in its tracks with the help of Slowbro, as well as being able to shrug off anything Zapdos can throw at them, and of course they all put pressure on the opposing team.

Here are my individual concerns about each one:

Conkeldurr

​

Being restricted to just one coverage move is certainly rather unfortunate, I'm considering changing this to a mono attacking set, however that would result in Conkeldurr being much easier to revenge kill, and the Bulk up set is harder to stop in general. Unfotunately, Conkeldurr's lack of coverage leaves it weak to a few irritating Pokémon, such as Gliscor (forcing them to make a passive pick is always good though, and both Slowbro and Landorus can easily deal with him), and the lack of speed means the likes of Latios are going to be a problem too (easily worn down, can be walled by the likes of Jirachi, and can be destroyed by Tyranitar).​

Garchomp

The biggest problem with Garchomp is that it amplifies our weakness to Ice that Landorus has already brought to the table, it would be very easy for our opponent to pick something like Weavile (worn down easily) or Mamoswine (already handled by Slowbro) and then just destroy the both of them. The Yache set may fix this, but Adamant Weavile's Ice Punch still does (96.09% - 113.97%) -- 74.63% chance to OHKO 4/0 Yache Garchomp, that's a guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock. Being locked into the wrong move can suck if we choice Choice Band Garchomp, it provides set up oppurtunities for the opponent, and it forceus us to rely on prediction, beucase if we select the wrong move we have to switch out and bring it back in later. There are also more defensive answers to Garchomp, but they've all been brought up and recognised, so I won't go too far into that.​

Swampert

The easy invite to Tangrowth is what worries me most about Swampert. Tangrowth is a good enough answer to both Landorus and Slowbro as it is, and it's pretty much a solid counter to Swampert. Tangrowth is definitely disposable though, and forcing the opponent into a passive answer is always pretty great. It's pretty slow, so it's not too easy to revenge kill, and being locked into the wrong move can provide set up oppurtunities and forces us to predict well.​

 

[ganj4lF]

I would be very careful to select Conkeldurr; while it's the suggestion I like the most, it also opens a horrible weakness to OTR Reuniclus, which does not only completely neuter our "offensive" pick being offensive itself, but almost OHKOs both Slowbro and Landorus with the appropriate attack, and is not OHKOed by Earth Power (obviously it doesn't care about Payback, Scald, Thunder Wave, whatever):

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 261-308 (63.81 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs. 192 HP / 64 Def Reuniclus: 187-221 (45.72 - 54.03%) -- 42.97% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 100-118 (24.44 - 28.85%) -- possible 4HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Payback (50 BP) vs. 192 HP / 64 Def Reuniclus: 148-176 (36.18 - 43.03%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Landorus: 273-321 (85.57 - 100.62%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 294-346 (74.61 - 87.81%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

If Team 2 picks this to answer Conkeldurr, they ALSO have another offensive pick at their disposal (or an utility one, I guess), and that could completely shift the picking's momentum in their favour, with potentially catastrophic consequences for Team 1. For example, they can use that pick to discourage us from taking Jirachi / Blissey that would otherwise stop Reuniclus cold.

 

[TGMD]

Reuniclus does seem like a problem, however, this is going to the same for no matter what we choose. Nothing is uncheckable, nor is anything offensively uncheckable. Admittedly, Reuniclus is a problem for the rest of the team which may not be the same for checks to other options. Tangrowth is the same kind of issue if we choose Swampert (not saying Swampert is bad, just the first example that comes to mind). Tangrowth shuts down Swampert and the rest of the team too, although it's not as offensive as Reuniclus; it's really difficult to kill due to Regenerator, unlike Reuniclus who is somewhat bulky with no recovery (not on OTR anyway) and that's as far as it goes.

 

[TCTphantom]

Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
Ability~Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP/124 Def/ 132 Spa
Modest Nature
~Stealth Rock
~Earth Power
~Ice Beam
~Thunderbolt/Thunder

Say hello to a great offensive supporter. The Queen of RU has been exiled to UU, but is ready to fight in the war in OU. Stealth Rock is quite frankly the best move ever. It gives us hazards, and a nice check to Zapdos. Earth Power, even without all that investment, will hit hard. Terrakion can't afford to stay in to the Queen, giving us either heavy damage on a Team two pokemon, or a free turn for Rocks. It also forces Team 2 to start hitting on the Special side, which is much easier to wall, sans Landorus I. Ice Beam is great, as it gives us a good hit on Zapdos and can leave a dent in anything weak to it. Thunder/bolt rounds out the coverage, hitting every pokemon in OU for neutral damage. If we use a rain team, Thunder is prefered, but if not, Thunderbolt shall prevail. The secondary Terrakion counter tames the bull and most of its physical friends to boot, allowing us to diversify our picks and toy with the opposing teams picks...

Edited Nidoqueen so she is more offensive...

Edited the Nature and Evs and item. Did calcs, she is safe from terrak still...

 

[vyomov]

Prankster Whimsicott

Whimsicott @ Flame Orb
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spd / 248 HP / 8 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Switcheroo
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- U-turn

This set, I believe has the potential to take a Terrakion and Zapdos at the same time without too many issues.
By Switcherooing a flame orb for choice band, whimsicott essentially negates terrakion for the whole game by reducing life time and making the attacks quite negligible.
Even if Terra switches out for Zapdos predicting the switch in, Flame Orb still makes it's mark, burning Zapdos and reducing the lifetime. Whimsicott is also faster and so can U-turn out after trading a Flame Orb on Zapdos for a suitable counter like discussed. Whimsicott can also do the following:
a) Switcheroo and burn Terrakion
b) Switch the Choice Band on Zapdos for leftovers, lock Zapdos and Sub Seed in the mean time
Whimsicott is strong enough with 248 HP to take a Close Combat from Terra before Switcherooing and rendering Terra useless.
For a calculation, after having taken one C.C and switching, Terra's CC does only 17%(Taking into account -1 from C.C)

 

[silenced]

Taking some interest into this thread now, I'm wondering why no-one has given more consideration to futuresuperstar's pick of mixed cobalion. Between it and slowbro, terrakion is dealt with reasonably well, and I feel short of team 2 picking hippowdon, there is very little to stop the volt-turning of cobalion and landorus-I putting pressure on team 2 by constantly retaking momentum (I suppose team 2 could pick scarf/yache of some ground type, but even that would be risky).

Even if team 2 then proceeded to pick hippowdon, slowbro is a pain for it, regenerating of SS and toxic damage, while threatening every possible switch-in so far with possible scald burns.

 

[tintinwong]

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 28 SpA / 232 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split

I would like to suggest specially defensive rotom-w. Even though, looking at the damage calculations, it definitely can not switch in to a close combat but then again, not much can, I think it will still be useful. Firstly, it allows to form a volt-turn combo with landorus, which allows plenty of switch initiatives. Secondly, zapdos can not touch it, especially since zapdos has hidden power ice, making volt switch do the most damage, which does a whooping 21.12 - 25.08%.Rotom-w can burn it, or stall it out with pain split if necessary, and if zapdos is predicted to switch out, rotom can also volt switch, and since it is slower, it will take the hit, as well as to see what pokemon the opponent sends out.
Also, at this point of time in the CAT, the opponent cant switch out either because terrakion definitely does not want to take any moves from rotom-w although this will change pretty soon.