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OU Simple Questions, Simple Answers (Read the OP First!)
- Thread starter Birkal
- Start date
By simply searching for Mew ;)
However we don't do Pokemon threads anymore if you wan to discuss a Pokemon you can use the General Metagame thread to discuss its standing in the current meat game, if you got a new and creative set post it here and if you want to rank a Pokemons viability take a look at this thread.
I'm not sure if this deserves its own topic so I'm just posting this suggestion here: how about a "OU move ranking thread"?
I think we can all agree that some moves are more influential than others, if not just plain better.
Fire Blast is better than Blast Burn, Sleep Powder is better than Grasswhistle, Surf is better than Bubblebeam and so on.
Things start to get tricky when we compare, for example, Dragon Dance and Autotomize. On paper the former seems to be completely outclassed by the latter, but since this is OU we're talking about, the only viable and common user of Autotomize is Smeargle, so it's definitely not as influential as Dragon Dance.
I'm emphatizing the OU tier because the same move can be more or less valuable based on the tier where it's used. Sacred Fire in ubers is unquestionably one of the best attacks in the tier, but in OU and below it has zero presence because only Smeargle can use it, so it shouldn't even be ranked.
Conversely, Spore is an extremely influential move in OU despite its low distribution, but, while still a great move, not nearly as influential in Ubers.
So, assuming such a thread is made, what criteria should moves be based on?
I was thinking about impact (a Draco Meteor has a higher chance to leave its mark compared to Dragon Pulse), reliability (Blizzard is less reliable than Ice Beam because it needs hail to be 100% accurate. On the other hand U-Turn is an almost 100% safe move) and distribution (as not in the number of pokemon that get it, but whether it has good abusers or not - if only Parasect learned Spore it would certainly not be nearly as influential as it is now).
Moves like Scald, U-Turn and Stealth Rock would easily be S-rank, while others like Hydro Cannon would be contenders for E-rank (i.e. the "stop using that move" rank).
Of course niche but not useless moves should be placed in the lower tiers and so on.
What would be the purpose of such a topic?
As I mentioned above, it would be interesting to compare the performance of the same move across the tiers.
Then the standard "stop using that move, it's really not good" fare and finally trying to encourage players to explore moves that have potential but aren't used as often as they should.
Basically the same thing as the pokemon viability thread, except for moves.
I think we can all agree that some moves are more influential than others, if not just plain better.
Fire Blast is better than Blast Burn, Sleep Powder is better than Grasswhistle, Surf is better than Bubblebeam and so on.
Things start to get tricky when we compare, for example, Dragon Dance and Autotomize. On paper the former seems to be completely outclassed by the latter, but since this is OU we're talking about, the only viable and common user of Autotomize is Smeargle, so it's definitely not as influential as Dragon Dance.
I'm emphatizing the OU tier because the same move can be more or less valuable based on the tier where it's used. Sacred Fire in ubers is unquestionably one of the best attacks in the tier, but in OU and below it has zero presence because only Smeargle can use it, so it shouldn't even be ranked.
Conversely, Spore is an extremely influential move in OU despite its low distribution, but, while still a great move, not nearly as influential in Ubers.
So, assuming such a thread is made, what criteria should moves be based on?
I was thinking about impact (a Draco Meteor has a higher chance to leave its mark compared to Dragon Pulse), reliability (Blizzard is less reliable than Ice Beam because it needs hail to be 100% accurate. On the other hand U-Turn is an almost 100% safe move) and distribution (as not in the number of pokemon that get it, but whether it has good abusers or not - if only Parasect learned Spore it would certainly not be nearly as influential as it is now).
Moves like Scald, U-Turn and Stealth Rock would easily be S-rank, while others like Hydro Cannon would be contenders for E-rank (i.e. the "stop using that move" rank).
Of course niche but not useless moves should be placed in the lower tiers and so on.
What would be the purpose of such a topic?
As I mentioned above, it would be interesting to compare the performance of the same move across the tiers.
Then the standard "stop using that move, it's really not good" fare and finally trying to encourage players to explore moves that have potential but aren't used as often as they should.
Basically the same thing as the pokemon viability thread, except for moves.
It would probably be best to just PM a mod directly about this and ask for permission to start it. If it gets cleared, you can post it right away, though they'll probably want to see your finished format before you do.
Why does the Landorus-T choice Scarf set recommend running 224 speed? Given a jolly nature it hits 301 speed + the CS boost, (so 451, if my math is right). But +1 neutral base 100s only hit 448 speed, and +1 neutral Garchomp has 454 speed. Is there a specific reason for running 224 speed evs as compared to 232/236 (which would, i believe, speed tie/outspeed garchomp) or dropping down to 220 to outspeed +1 adamant mence/jirachi/modest Volcarana?
It used to be much more notable in BW1 due to a great amount of stuff it could wall, and was rather common on stall teams, but with the advent of BW2, so many more hardhitting threats came out that don't even need to boost means that Quag can no longer wall OU threats. Thus, it is nowadays not worth using.
I can't find a reason. Initially I guessed 224 might be a jump point, but it isn't. There's nothing relevant at 225 speed either, only uninvested Xatu at 226 and max+ Gorebyss/Huntail at 223. Only Zoroark has a spread sitting at 300 and it's obviously for max base 100s. I suppose it might rarely come in handy for things hoping to beat the base 100 benchmark or if you end up losing your own scarf to Knock Off or Trick, but that's just as situational as the extra HP.
By the way, I imagine we're not bothering with +1 neutral Grachomp because most Garchomp are either max+ or bulky - it's probably not worth the loss of bulk.
By the way, I imagine we're not bothering with +1 neutral Grachomp because most Garchomp are either max+ or bulky - it's probably not worth the loss of bulk.
Generally if you are running a standard Volca, which means no HP Ground, you need a way to get rid of Heatran, which is why Dugtrio is an amazing partner to Volca. Also, a nice strong physical attacker is nice to beat special walls. Something like Breloom is cool because it gives free turns thanks to Spore, is scary in its own right, and can break the majority of Special walls.
In fact, every Pokemon is benefited from dual screens. Considering that Volcarona is a sweeper, yeah, it gets huge advantage and set up opportunities when used behind screens, however; be careful about Rock-type attacks that can OHKO it anyway.
Who are good teammates for CB Snorlax?
Trick Room setters and sweepers such as Reuniclus, Conkeldurr, and Magnezone. Also, Pokemon that are frail on he Special side as Snorlax can easily handle them. For more information, go to this page and look in the section that says Team Options and Additional Comments. You've also posted the same question in the UU edition of SQSA, so unless you wanted to know teammates for both metagames, I would refer from posting here.
Which is the better ability for Jellicent, water absorb or cursed body? I've mostly used cursed body as water attacks aren't doing much anyway, and the 30% chance to hax is very handy, in particular spinners' attacks such a starmie's T-bolt. However nearly every jellicent i've faced on the ladder and also those used in high level tournament matches that i've watched replays of have water absorb. Is there an obvious reason that i'm missing for this?
Water absorb allows you to completely wall Keldeo's STABs. Also, an immunity to water is huge, because it can take many Rain boosted Water moves that could otherwise deal serious damage. Cursed Body relies on hax, while Water Absorb is a guaranteed immunity to one of the best attacking types in OU.
Q: Why do we ban entire Pokemon to Ubers rather than the trait that makes them broken? Unbanning Excadrill and Blaziken seems fair.
A: Right now, Smogon does not support complex bans. The argument is that almost any banned Pokemon can be broken up into "parts that make it Uber" and could subsequently be unbanned by banning those traits. Instead of entering this argument, it's easier to just ban a Pokemon if it is banworthy.
How is this justified when Venusaur with Giga Drain and Life Orb was not legal at one point in the BW OU Metagame? I actually would like to discuss the various reasons for Excadrill to be allowed back into the OU Metagame, just without Sand Rush, where would I go to discuss that?
2 part question, sorry!
A: Right now, Smogon does not support complex bans. The argument is that almost any banned Pokemon can be broken up into "parts that make it Uber" and could subsequently be unbanned by banning those traits. Instead of entering this argument, it's easier to just ban a Pokemon if it is banworthy.
How is this justified when Venusaur with Giga Drain and Life Orb was not legal at one point in the BW OU Metagame? I actually would like to discuss the various reasons for Excadrill to be allowed back into the OU Metagame, just without Sand Rush, where would I go to discuss that?
2 part question, sorry!
Giga Drain and Chlorophyll weren't legal together in BW1 because male Dream World Bulbasaur had no way of passing Chlorophyll on to an egg (because males can't pass DW abilities) that also had Giga Drain (which was either a TM move or an egg move in past generations). It wasn't illegal in the sense that it was too good to use. We don't do complex bans because I could say Darkrai without Dark Void is OU viable, or Rayquaza isn't broken with no EV investment. But when considering a Pokémon, you have to look at the whole thing. And since people have a bad habit of bringing Garchomp up during these types of debates, I'll just say that Sand Veil was banned because Sand Veil was uncompetitive, not because we wanted Garchomp. If Speed Boost or Sand Rush were found to be broken abilities (they won't be), then we could bring Blaziken and Excadrill down again. Until then, they are Uber.
Ah, I see. That's my mistake then, because I faintly remembered that Venusaur wasn't able to use a Life Orb on PO slightly before B/W2 but it appears that I'm wrong.
I spoiler-ed my "rebuttal" because I'm not even sure if I'm allowed to be doing this and if not, I'm terribly sorry and anyone with permission, or myself, can remove this at will. Thanks for responding though! :)
I understand entirely that complex bans are, well, complex and not very plausible most of the time but am I the only one who sees it as a way to expand the OU Metagame with more possibilities? By granting certain complex bans you open up the plausibility of various pokemon that get left behind in the dust. I personally feel like the OU Metagame would benefit from a higher rate of plausible pokemon, simply due to the fact that it opens up new ideas for the creative players and therefore causes (I believe) generically more wins for the more skilled players. For example, I know that dude hosting the Smogcast is awfully salty over losing to bad players frequently and generically salty over the use of Stealth Rocks in general. Excadrill is a prime example of a quality Rapid Spinner, taking only 6% from rocks, and threatening various pokemon off, but he completely ignores the idea of granting this complex ban at all when kd24 mentions that he would love to see Excadrill in OU again. All in all, I personally don't see much reason to the argument besides; "Complex bans are complex so, no" and I don't feel like that is fully justified.
Side Note: It doesn't seem logical at all to limit EVs on a pokemon to make it viable in another metagame and I'm almost certain that nobody has ever even asked to do that, it's just entirely unreasonable as a whole.
Side Note: It doesn't seem logical at all to limit EVs on a pokemon to make it viable in another metagame and I'm almost certain that nobody has ever even asked to do that, it's just entirely unreasonable as a whole.
I spoiler-ed my "rebuttal" because I'm not even sure if I'm allowed to be doing this and if not, I'm terribly sorry and anyone with permission, or myself, can remove this at will. Thanks for responding though! :)
Sorry, what does your sidenote have to do with anything? I'm very confused.
Moreso addressing this in particular.
This is not a debate thread so if you want to respon further, feel free to VM me and I'll explain more why we don't do complex bans. Basically, there's no point in a tier system if we allow any Pokemon in OU under specific circumstances. My Rayquaza example is a completely valid comparison to Excadrill and Blaziken without their overpowered abilities. I'm taking away a trait that makes Rayquaza broken (his monsterous stats further boosted by EVs) so that he would be on par with OU Pokemon. This is the same thing you are suggesting with Blaziken. You're taking one trait (Speed Boost) which is an inherent quality that Blaziken can have, and saying that it would be fine without it. We could do that with literally any Pokemon, and make them ok. But I for one don't want to allow Kyogre in OU only if it's at level 50 or UU if it's level 30. That completely invalidates the need for any tier system at all. There's nothing different, in my opinion, between saying a given ability is broken on a Pokemon versus a given move or EV spread.